so Claire thank you so much for joining
me I’ve been really excited about this
conversation because it’s something that
I have definitely tuned into a lot over
the last year or two I read your book I
found it if I’m honest terrifying
depressing and then uplifting in turn I
would love to hear from you as to your
general perspective from the book I find
that offensive as so what’s going on
here how would you sort of describe this
movement and what’s happening in society
today but I noticed about five years ago
I do a lot of speeches at universities
and at schools in my role the academy of
ideas that rather than people arguing
back against me that more and more young
people particularly was saying I find
that offensive and they didn’t mean to
be sharing that with me they meant shut
up I mean it was a chilling impact you
know I find that offensive was don’t
carry on it’s gonna be too hurtful and I
looked into the eyes of many of the
young people who said this and I
realized that they didn’t want to debate
or discuss with me they wanted to close
down debate by saying they personally
had their feelings hurt by something
they found offensive and I was worried
that this would mean that they would get
stuck in the rut of only hearing one
side of an opinion and that also
indicated and the theme of today a
certain lack of resilience because if
you’re not able to hear lots of
different opinions and argue back then
actually you can posit yourself as quite
a fragile person so you know there’s
daft and silly and egregious examples
from university campuses that were maybe
you’re familiar with the fact that a
mexican-themed tequila party was closed
down as racist at one university a
situation where NUS Women’s Conference
banned clapping and only allowed jazz
hands because they said that laughing
was going to trigger post-traumatic
and I started you know and there’s and
there’s you know walking past the statue
of Cecil Rhodes at Oxford University
undoubtedly Cecil Rhodes a contentious
we go and a pro colonialist with views
at the time that we would consider races
today and so you might say that about
the cicero strategy when students
started organizing to take the statue
down and saying that walking past it was
an act of violence and was on a par with
being enslaved i thought you know if
young people feel that walking past the
statues akin to slavery they’re not
going to stand a chance in the real
world and so i started to investigate
what has become known in a rather
derogatory sense as generation snowflake
generations snowflake is an insult if
you look at wikipedia it says that i am
responsible for introducing the phrase
but it’s wikipedia so you have to
believe that but i wrote a book that was
addressed to and about a generational
shift of young people being too
thin-skinned and easily offended and why
I thought that that was not going to do
them any good because yeah well it was
interesting about what you what I read
was it it’s it’s not just the chatting
down a debate by saying offense you
actually you witness in these people
that they are offended that words are
actually hitting them to the core and
that you have people at these debates
practically in tears because they felt
their religion was being undermined or
or annihilated in some way you know this
wasn’t phowa fence it’s genuine offense
that appears to be happening but I think
that there’s a danger that we miss the
point if we think that this is posturing
students or that even that they’ll grow
out of it because what I realized and
what I was interested in was how deeply
felt since their and internalized this
sense of young people feeling that they
couldn’t cope with hearing words or
ideas that discomforted them that was a
genuine thing and so one of the
phenomenal cultural shifts of recent
years is that university students now
demand safe spaces demand a place where
they can be safe not physically
but from ideas which they find
discomforting now I don’t know about you
but when I was 18 and when I went to
university at the time or whether you
went to work you know the last thing I
wanted to do was to feel safe I mean I
wanted to take risks be experimental
push back boundaries not kind of cower
in a safe space and and kind of say oh
no go away
I mean this struck me as a big shift
that was not allowing young people to
really fly and and and you know enjoy
being young but it’s it seems I mean
universities is an important part of
this because it’s obviously where people
are learning to hone their ideologies
and and the political thinking at that
sort of age and also how to engage in
debate but it’s happening everywhere I
mean I I’ve certainly experienced it for
myself with a long feminist alliance for
example where you’ve got me too and it’s
very difficult to talk about any of the
graer questions in the middle of what
becomes a very black-and-white debate
without an immediate missile being
thrown of misogynist rape apologist
which as soon as that missiles thrown
into that person’s opinion is no longer
valid and is excluded from the
conversation it strikes me this is
something that social media actually
exacerbates in some way because of the
short-form nature of the debate and you
know is it we are we all snowflakes now
is is that what you think is the
important observation because on the one
hand universities which now of course
almost fifty percent of the cohort go to
university says an awful lot of young
people they’re all based on the notion
of academic freedom and the
possibilities of exploring
intellectually new ideas and part of
your intellectual development your
academic development of course must be
that you are discomforted you know your
ideas are shaken up everything you’ve
previously known is challenged and
academic research which has given us
everything from you know cures in terms
of medicine through to great insights
into the ancient world all of those
things require no boundaries to what is
explored but it’s not just academic this
is a broader culture
of you can’t say that and your point
about the labeling of people indicates
just how narrowly prescriptive the set
of views are that one is allowed to
pursue these days I mean you know it’s
not just a question of saying oh well
this is a very enlightened situation
where we call people racist when they’re
racist because you can be called a
racist as one young woman in America has
been as hit social media recently
because she wore a Chinese dress to a
prom and she’s not Chinese and she was
called somebody who culturally
appropriated Asian culture a racist and
she because it was social media was
piled on as they say by hundreds of
thousands of people a 19 year old girl
and that it seems to me is one of the
problems as you say you can be accused
of rape denial if you’re worried about
or you know a rapist apologist or if you
say as I do that it’s very important to
defend the principle of innocence until
proven guilty when it comes to sexual
assault cases people will say your
victim shaming how dare you you’re
suffering internalized misogyny so these
labels are used very quickly to shut
down debate and discussion so I don’t
know in that sense that that’s an
indication of we’re all snowflakes but
it does indicate that society has become
incredibly intolerant of views that
don’t fit into a very very narrow
spectrum spectrum of what appeared to be
progressive I mean I’m an anti racist I
was involved in women’s liberation
movement I’m not you know I’m a
well-known kind of on the left so person
and yet when I hear somebody say you
know as an anti racist and as a woman I
find that offensive you just feel that
the progressive arguments for equality
of the past have almost become
weaponized as a way of ensuring that
only one version of the truth is heard
that scares the life out of me mm-hmm
and it’s just going back to this sort of
what’s happening at universities from
from reading the book you actually
identify that it’s starting at a much
younger age which is something that I’m
very interested in as a mother
of three young children how do you think
the way in which we’re bringing to up
children these days might be might be
playing a role in this well I was
fascinated that first of all I was
noticing this in schools but secondly
that I thought that you know at 18 you
suddenly didn’t arrive at 18 and
suddenly start saying I want to know
platform this feminist or no platform or
not hear that argument or what I want
safety so and as I was somebody who
taught for many years I started to think
about some of the policies that might
have started to chip away at young
people’s resilience pre-loading them
with anxieties before they ever got to
university making them scared of words
and I realized that a lot of educational
policies and a lot of parenting and
popular parenting devices did two things
either we kind of obsessively tell young
people that safety that their safety is
the most important thing we won’t let
them go and play outside there’s a kind
of culture of over protection and
cotton-wool kids these days young people
are constantly told to be fearful of
pedophiles around every corner of any
number of different things even eating
chocolate and drinking sugary drinks is
like a death threat hanging over them
and so we kind of scare monger young
people to imagine that round every
corner something terrible is awaiting
them and at the same time we also tell
them that they’re the most important
people in the world you know we’re
constantly part of educators social and
educational theory says that you know if
we tell young people that maybe they’re
not as good as they think they are at
something then we’re going to damage
their self-esteem forever and we told
young people through policies on
bullying and anti-bullying which of
course you know he wants to support
bullying and but here we go and I think
that if you look at the way the concepts
are bullying has been so broadened out
it now can be name-calling it can be
hostile gestures and my favorite one is
exclusion from friendship group so if
you’re ten and your friends don’t invite
you to the pictures with them on a
Friday night that is officially bullying
in educational land and young people are
told this and then they’re told that if
you’re bullied when you’re ten is going
to damage you forever it’s going to have
long lasting psychological damage on
everything so we wonder why eighteen
students go to university and somebody
says something horrible to them and they
go oh my god I’m going to be damaged
forever right we told them that right so
ironically generations snowflake with a
sense of entitlement where they say my
feelings of what count you know you
can’t say that because you’re hurting me
and we socialize them that way and in
that sense I think we’ve got to take
some responsibility yeah there’s a
there’s a narcissism to it actually
isn’t that I know I’ve been thinking
this with my own children they ought to
be nice to everyone the whole time
people aren’t gonna be nice to you the
whole time when you enter the real world
some people will like you some people
won’t and you just won’t be prepared for
that let alone the competitive cutthroat
nature of many industries business
politics media that many of these
children will want to get into it’s just
you know they won’t be prepared for that
because you’ve got to play nicely so
taking part that matters not the winning
no exactly and guess what is the winning
and I think that the other thing is is
that actually it’s insulting to young
people because you know one of the
things that you have to realize is if
you know I’ve given many speeches that
go to policy events and there’s almost
been a kind of de rigueur 16 year old
that’s kind of trotted out to speak on
the stage and they get a standing
ovation before they’ve said a word and
it’s the adults in the room were kind of
going Oh 16 how marvelous you know I
mean and then that kind of actually
shows a real indifference and contempt
to that young person you know if we tell
young people that they’re interesting
the whole time actually it just means
we’re not listening to them because
sometimes sometimes they’re interesting
sometimes they’re not right and and they
deserve to be taken more seriously it’s
condescending to say that because
they’re young that they are by the very
nature of it insightful and obviously by
the very nature being young you’re not
that insightful so
partly we as adults have a
responsibility to encourage young people
to recognize that in order to be taken
seriously they have something to say
this is interesting and therefore we’ve
got to tell them when they’re saying
things that darlin anodyne and and so on
and but the other thing is you know
whether they can cope this is important
isn’t it because you know the National
Union students did a survey of students
last year I think it was where 78% of
students self-reported that they’d have
mental health problems the year before
78% now I worked in mental health social
work for many years when I graduated and
I understand the absolute horrors of
mental illness but for people to
pathologize and understand her feelings
and the vicissitudes of life and exam
stress and so on as a mental health
problem it does indicate to me that they
actually aren’t coping and that in fact
we really have got a problem that young
people have internalized this sense of
vulnerability and fragility to such an
extent that they really do perceive
themselves as ill and and you know
needing protection needing intervention
to look after them infantilizing them in
fact and so again as I say we have a
responsibility to say to young people
you know this is not doing you any good
this is why I was depressed it’s that
part of the book it does get better and
so I mean coming on to I guess the more
contentious nature of freedom of speech
which is what ultimately what you’re
advocating I mean the argument which I
think can be a strong one is that it’s
ultimately speech which incites greater
acts of violence of oppression of
discrimination how where is the spectrum
there and and how do we think about
speech when it comes to incitement where
this freedom of speech end and you know
how do we teach people about those
barriers so I first of all I’m a free
speech absolutist no ifs no buts
I think that we have to be very careful
about suggesting that incitement is a
straightforward matter because it takes
responsibility for actions from the
person who acts to something that
they’ve heard so you can just say that
well I went and heard the speaker and as
a consequence I kind of launched a
racist pogrom right I mean you know no
you decided having heard the speak you
know most of the audience heard the
racist speaker and decided to become an
anti-racist as a consequence I mean it’s
not as though we all straight well we’re
not like a TAC dogs you know I I can
tell you what I think here today and
you’re all thinking different things I
mean I can’t just kind of keep saying
listen to me and do what I say I mean if
only it was so easy then education would
be a doddle wouldn’t it and you you you
that is not the way it works and but I’m
also nervous about things that we assume
are incitement because if you look at
legislation now that’s increasingly
coming in but certainly more informally
the notion of hate crime or hate speech
if you actually explore what that is
first of all even the police say that
you can call something a hate crime with
no evidence just based on the subjective
reports of it you will then find that
what people constitute hate crime might
be wearing that Chinese dress or – well
you know the famous Charlie Hebdo
cartoons right are we saying that the
Charlie Hebdo cartoonists incited
barbaric acts in Paris because they said
something which somebody considered
hateful I think not
and you might even think that they were
racist and then the final thing I’d say
is the idea that speeches harm you know
je s mil one of my great heroes the
great 19th century free speech
philosopher said that you know we should
have free speech in all instances unless
there’s a harm principle and let it harm
someone he meant a very narrow sense of
that now we have a broadened sense of
harm which is psychological harm and
that ends up basically being interpreted
is saying words that hurt me or harm me
because they upset me and that’s where
we end up with safe spaces and
platforming at universities so I think
you can hear words that you that hurt
you in the sense that you’re upset I
hear things that offend me all the time
people say horrible things to me or if
somebody says something this sexist and
misogynist and vile and personal of
course I don’t mean you know I kind of
go brush it off right but I have no
entitlement to close it down and I need
free speech to be able to argue back or
to be able to have a campaign to kind of
you know deal with that person all those
ideas yeah it’s the shutting down of
debate I suppose that that that is
perhaps the most damaging byproducts a
lot of this do you think that it’s
contributing to some of today’s
political trends that we’re observing I
think that we’ve seen this phenomenon of
first of all labeling people in a kind
of a dominant way but also by using
these you know transphobic Islamophobic
and so on is a way of closing down
debate I think that sadly we are in a
situation where we are confining
ourselves to echo chambers and you can
see that although we might laugh at or
think it’s hilarious to see young people
hiding away in their safe spaces and you
know at universities with the bubble
wrap by the way is very popular and
therapy dogs and to kind of deal with
the stresses of life you know we think
that’s all kind of oh can you imagine
how we mature and yet actually you’ll
see people saying I’m blocking so-and-so
on Twitter I’m getting rid of all of my
Facebook friends he voted brexit I’m not
having anything to do I don’t want to
hear you know I think it’s why we was so
blindsided by brexit and and Donald
Trump’s election in facts because people
were kind of so busy talking to people
who agreed with them and having their
own views narcissistically focus back on
them they didn’t notice that you know
millions and millions of people didn’t
agree with them the other thing that
we’re seeing more and more of as a
political trend is identity politics and
I find that the most divisive and
dangerous aspect that people see
themselves not as defined you know it’s
no longer what you say that matters but
who is saying it
so you will have people say you know as
a you know you as a white person could
not comment on that because that is the
preserve of black people talking about
it it’s kind of racializing in that way
as somebody who’s been involved in
women’s politics in many years I don’t
see women’s liberation as something that
women do I think it’s a matter of
equality that we should all be involved
in so demonizing men and saying you’ve
got no right to speak on that or saying
that if you haven’t suffered a sexual
abuse you’re not allowed to talk about
it I mean it kills off on capacity or
great enlightenment breakthrough where
we saw ourselves as rational objective
people who could understand the will
beyond simply having experienced it but
instead what we do is confine ourselves
in ghettos and boxes where we say no I’m
entitled to speak on that you’re not and
so those broad political trends by the
way we see them in politics all the time
it’s something that I’m watching and
getting increasingly concerned about
with women in business and technology
because these are apparently such hard
industries to be a woman in which I
don’t believe is the case I actually
think it’s a fantastic opportunity I am
noticing women assuming that when
they’re not progressing or getting not
that that it’s because of a gender
reason and possibly it could be actually
on many of those occasions but it’s
still not the best way to approach that
because it stops you self internalizing
analyzing yourself and coming up with
constructive ways in which you can
circumvent the status quo and actually
resilience building resilience to to
climb your your barriers so it is
something that I the victimhood
mentality around identity is the least
interesting thing about this you know we
all have so much more in common with
those with the same values and outlook
than we do with anyone because we share
chromosomes skin color in it whatever
else it may be and so it’s certainly
something you just very quickly on the
victim point I think that somebody is
called identity politics would rather
describe it rather well as the
oppression Olympics and there’s a
there’s a a theory called
intersectionality which is to kind of
effectively you have more right to speak
and the more you have been victimized
historically over the years so you know
what you find is is that first of all
you start up saying as a woman then you
say as a black woman or then you say as
a black disabled woman in sauna and you
kind of crude points of course if you’re
a white obsessed man you’re out and
you’ve got nowhere to go and you’re just
so privileged but it’s it’s the thing
about that is it incites people to show
their scars I mean what you end up doing
is sort of in order to gain permission
to speak you basically you know I I can
basically give you my list of terrible
things of happens my working-class
background you know my family are Irish
right
the British cause the famine every bad
thing that happened to me is because my
ancestors suffered the famine how dare
you disagree with me on I don’t know
brexit I mean you know what I mean it’s
like sort of like you you you end up in
a situation where you you trottle this
out you actually interestingly in order
to accrue your victim points what’s more
is you kind of plunder the suffering the
genuine suffering of one’s ancestors
very often and you then accrue points
that’s why you have things called
microaggressions where you basically say
very small things add up this is a
campaign called everyday sexism and they
say the most trivial things are all
added up to the equivalence of kind of
being abused as a woman but they don’t
they’re trivial things and but it’s a
way of accruing victim points mm-hmm I’m
conscious that we could talk all day and
I don’t have a clock so if anyone can
wave at me to give me a sense and we
can’t see it but I’m determined that we
don’t leave things on such a depressing
negative note come on Claire are you
confident that any of these trends can
be reversed and it’s so I guess what do
you see as some of some of the solutions
on positive ways in which we can
approach these challenges um first of
all I absolutely think these trends can
be reversed but it’s not a cycle and it
won’t happen spontaneously you know
there’s nothing more disparity when one
imagines it to think God middle-aged
woman writes book moaning about modern
youth I really saw
I was kind of letting myself in for
something one of the great things about
it is the people who’ve absolutely hated
my book educational psychologists
sociologists and people my own age who
have actually responsible for generation
snowflake and gratifyingly many of the
most enthusiastic people who’ve liked my
book are young because the point about
generations snowflake is it’s a
generational trend but it’s insulting to
young people and many young people see
and feel that they’re in a trap and
they’re walking on eggshells even
amongst their peers and they don’t want
that so what needs to happen is that
those young people are and encouraged by
us and given permission to kind of fight
back in in terms of fighting for free
speech I also think that grown-ups have
got to behave like grown-ups and lock
young people in the eye and tell them
when they’re talking nonsense have the
confidence to say what you believe not
back off and apologize at the mirrors
tense of somebody calling you a horrible
name and you know when people say I find
that offensive I say fine and I’m sorry
you do but I’m going to explain what I’m
talking about not back off think how
many people apologize straight away I
mean you’re apologizing for you kind of
finished the sentence so I’m I I think
that what my solutions are is that we
need to both launch as a society an
intellectual campaign in support of open
free debate and discussion and and we
need to encourage young people to think
critically and to get out of safe spaces
and echo chambers and I always say to
young people you know read widely read
everything right go and listen to
speakers that you’re gonna hate and if
it confirms that you hate them more
that’s good because you’ll have a better
argument because you’ll have heard their
argument you’ll know what their
weaknesses are but you might just might
have your mind change too so of course
there’s hope because every generation
even though it has its challenges has
people who are brave enough to fight
back and the academy of ideas and
through our battle of ideas festival
through our debating competition for six
film is debating matters
meets young people all the time who say
I am determined to not let this be the
the main way that my generation is known
and so we owe it to them as older people
if you’re young join that movement if
you’re if you’re a bit older and then
what we’ve got to do is to be brave and
give a lead I always took by the fact
that you need to sing some of the anti
snowflakes I think you refer to them
trying to fight fire with fire sometimes
a fence with a fence and that that is an
a productive way forward it’s it should
be one to listen cajole and actually
bring the debate forward and the
expression I always love is is to play
the ball and not the player I blame
social media and I’m younger than you so
I I don’t know whether that’s going to
be considered old-fashioned now as well
yeah I mean I think social media does
amplify these problems as you mentioned
earlier and I think it’s there are very
dangerous twitch ants because I I don’t
want to be glib about this people are
losing their jobs for miss speaking or
saying something I don’t know if you saw
but the there’s there’s some life
boatman who’ve just been sacked because
they had a mug with them some rather
sexist pictures on a kid one with one of
the lifeboat men’s heads on it yes was a
Secret Santa gift and then the RNLI
looked at their whatsapp messages
private messages between two people and
they were sacked right there were
volunteers as well when I say they were
sacked what he means is is that you earn
no money but they are no longer saving
lives on the Seas these are brave brave
people right and what the oil I said was
and you know these kind of banter and
this kind of bullying atmosphere and
this kind of attitude to women will not
be tolerated we will not tolerate it but
we’ve got to believe in free speech
that’s the point we’ve got to rediscover
what it was a free society represented
for us you know we say that we’re
worried about authoritarian regimes in
Syria in Turkey whether locking people
up in universities for saying the wrong
thing or closing
newspapers we worry about China you know
and and and we we panic about the the
the terrible way that you can
arbitrarily be you know sacked in China
for saying the wrong thing criticizing
the government and then we sat people
here because they give the wrong
Secret Santa mug away to their mate
right I mean this is this is as scary
and authoritarian in an insidious way
and it’s up to us to it’s a we live in a
free society we’re not having this I
absolutely agree and I don’t think we
could have ended on a on a on a better
night actually so Claire I thank you
very very much and I wish you all the
best with everything [Applause]
me I’ve been really excited about this
conversation because it’s something that
I have definitely tuned into a lot over
the last year or two I read your book I
found it if I’m honest terrifying
depressing and then uplifting in turn I
would love to hear from you as to your
general perspective from the book I find
that offensive as so what’s going on
here how would you sort of describe this
movement and what’s happening in society
today but I noticed about five years ago
I do a lot of speeches at universities
and at schools in my role the academy of
ideas that rather than people arguing
back against me that more and more young
people particularly was saying I find
that offensive and they didn’t mean to
be sharing that with me they meant shut
up I mean it was a chilling impact you
know I find that offensive was don’t
carry on it’s gonna be too hurtful and I
looked into the eyes of many of the
young people who said this and I
realized that they didn’t want to debate
or discuss with me they wanted to close
down debate by saying they personally
had their feelings hurt by something
they found offensive and I was worried
that this would mean that they would get
stuck in the rut of only hearing one
side of an opinion and that also
indicated and the theme of today a
certain lack of resilience because if
you’re not able to hear lots of
different opinions and argue back then
actually you can posit yourself as quite
a fragile person so you know there’s
daft and silly and egregious examples
from university campuses that were maybe
you’re familiar with the fact that a
mexican-themed tequila party was closed
down as racist at one university a
situation where NUS Women’s Conference
banned clapping and only allowed jazz
hands because they said that laughing
was going to trigger post-traumatic
and I started you know and there’s and
there’s you know walking past the statue
of Cecil Rhodes at Oxford University
undoubtedly Cecil Rhodes a contentious
we go and a pro colonialist with views
at the time that we would consider races
today and so you might say that about
the cicero strategy when students
started organizing to take the statue
down and saying that walking past it was
an act of violence and was on a par with
being enslaved i thought you know if
young people feel that walking past the
statues akin to slavery they’re not
going to stand a chance in the real
world and so i started to investigate
what has become known in a rather
derogatory sense as generation snowflake
generations snowflake is an insult if
you look at wikipedia it says that i am
responsible for introducing the phrase
but it’s wikipedia so you have to
believe that but i wrote a book that was
addressed to and about a generational
shift of young people being too
thin-skinned and easily offended and why
I thought that that was not going to do
them any good because yeah well it was
interesting about what you what I read
was it it’s it’s not just the chatting
down a debate by saying offense you
actually you witness in these people
that they are offended that words are
actually hitting them to the core and
that you have people at these debates
practically in tears because they felt
their religion was being undermined or
or annihilated in some way you know this
wasn’t phowa fence it’s genuine offense
that appears to be happening but I think
that there’s a danger that we miss the
point if we think that this is posturing
students or that even that they’ll grow
out of it because what I realized and
what I was interested in was how deeply
felt since their and internalized this
sense of young people feeling that they
couldn’t cope with hearing words or
ideas that discomforted them that was a
genuine thing and so one of the
phenomenal cultural shifts of recent
years is that university students now
demand safe spaces demand a place where
they can be safe not physically
but from ideas which they find
discomforting now I don’t know about you
but when I was 18 and when I went to
university at the time or whether you
went to work you know the last thing I
wanted to do was to feel safe I mean I
wanted to take risks be experimental
push back boundaries not kind of cower
in a safe space and and kind of say oh
no go away
I mean this struck me as a big shift
that was not allowing young people to
really fly and and and you know enjoy
being young but it’s it seems I mean
universities is an important part of
this because it’s obviously where people
are learning to hone their ideologies
and and the political thinking at that
sort of age and also how to engage in
debate but it’s happening everywhere I
mean I I’ve certainly experienced it for
myself with a long feminist alliance for
example where you’ve got me too and it’s
very difficult to talk about any of the
graer questions in the middle of what
becomes a very black-and-white debate
without an immediate missile being
thrown of misogynist rape apologist
which as soon as that missiles thrown
into that person’s opinion is no longer
valid and is excluded from the
conversation it strikes me this is
something that social media actually
exacerbates in some way because of the
short-form nature of the debate and you
know is it we are we all snowflakes now
is is that what you think is the
important observation because on the one
hand universities which now of course
almost fifty percent of the cohort go to
university says an awful lot of young
people they’re all based on the notion
of academic freedom and the
possibilities of exploring
intellectually new ideas and part of
your intellectual development your
academic development of course must be
that you are discomforted you know your
ideas are shaken up everything you’ve
previously known is challenged and
academic research which has given us
everything from you know cures in terms
of medicine through to great insights
into the ancient world all of those
things require no boundaries to what is
explored but it’s not just academic this
is a broader culture
of you can’t say that and your point
about the labeling of people indicates
just how narrowly prescriptive the set
of views are that one is allowed to
pursue these days I mean you know it’s
not just a question of saying oh well
this is a very enlightened situation
where we call people racist when they’re
racist because you can be called a
racist as one young woman in America has
been as hit social media recently
because she wore a Chinese dress to a
prom and she’s not Chinese and she was
called somebody who culturally
appropriated Asian culture a racist and
she because it was social media was
piled on as they say by hundreds of
thousands of people a 19 year old girl
and that it seems to me is one of the
problems as you say you can be accused
of rape denial if you’re worried about
or you know a rapist apologist or if you
say as I do that it’s very important to
defend the principle of innocence until
proven guilty when it comes to sexual
assault cases people will say your
victim shaming how dare you you’re
suffering internalized misogyny so these
labels are used very quickly to shut
down debate and discussion so I don’t
know in that sense that that’s an
indication of we’re all snowflakes but
it does indicate that society has become
incredibly intolerant of views that
don’t fit into a very very narrow
spectrum spectrum of what appeared to be
progressive I mean I’m an anti racist I
was involved in women’s liberation
movement I’m not you know I’m a
well-known kind of on the left so person
and yet when I hear somebody say you
know as an anti racist and as a woman I
find that offensive you just feel that
the progressive arguments for equality
of the past have almost become
weaponized as a way of ensuring that
only one version of the truth is heard
that scares the life out of me mm-hmm
and it’s just going back to this sort of
what’s happening at universities from
from reading the book you actually
identify that it’s starting at a much
younger age which is something that I’m
very interested in as a mother
of three young children how do you think
the way in which we’re bringing to up
children these days might be might be
playing a role in this well I was
fascinated that first of all I was
noticing this in schools but secondly
that I thought that you know at 18 you
suddenly didn’t arrive at 18 and
suddenly start saying I want to know
platform this feminist or no platform or
not hear that argument or what I want
safety so and as I was somebody who
taught for many years I started to think
about some of the policies that might
have started to chip away at young
people’s resilience pre-loading them
with anxieties before they ever got to
university making them scared of words
and I realized that a lot of educational
policies and a lot of parenting and
popular parenting devices did two things
either we kind of obsessively tell young
people that safety that their safety is
the most important thing we won’t let
them go and play outside there’s a kind
of culture of over protection and
cotton-wool kids these days young people
are constantly told to be fearful of
pedophiles around every corner of any
number of different things even eating
chocolate and drinking sugary drinks is
like a death threat hanging over them
and so we kind of scare monger young
people to imagine that round every
corner something terrible is awaiting
them and at the same time we also tell
them that they’re the most important
people in the world you know we’re
constantly part of educators social and
educational theory says that you know if
we tell young people that maybe they’re
not as good as they think they are at
something then we’re going to damage
their self-esteem forever and we told
young people through policies on
bullying and anti-bullying which of
course you know he wants to support
bullying and but here we go and I think
that if you look at the way the concepts
are bullying has been so broadened out
it now can be name-calling it can be
hostile gestures and my favorite one is
exclusion from friendship group so if
you’re ten and your friends don’t invite
you to the pictures with them on a
Friday night that is officially bullying
in educational land and young people are
told this and then they’re told that if
you’re bullied when you’re ten is going
to damage you forever it’s going to have
long lasting psychological damage on
everything so we wonder why eighteen
students go to university and somebody
says something horrible to them and they
go oh my god I’m going to be damaged
forever right we told them that right so
ironically generations snowflake with a
sense of entitlement where they say my
feelings of what count you know you
can’t say that because you’re hurting me
and we socialize them that way and in
that sense I think we’ve got to take
some responsibility yeah there’s a
there’s a narcissism to it actually
isn’t that I know I’ve been thinking
this with my own children they ought to
be nice to everyone the whole time
people aren’t gonna be nice to you the
whole time when you enter the real world
some people will like you some people
won’t and you just won’t be prepared for
that let alone the competitive cutthroat
nature of many industries business
politics media that many of these
children will want to get into it’s just
you know they won’t be prepared for that
because you’ve got to play nicely so
taking part that matters not the winning
no exactly and guess what is the winning
and I think that the other thing is is
that actually it’s insulting to young
people because you know one of the
things that you have to realize is if
you know I’ve given many speeches that
go to policy events and there’s almost
been a kind of de rigueur 16 year old
that’s kind of trotted out to speak on
the stage and they get a standing
ovation before they’ve said a word and
it’s the adults in the room were kind of
going Oh 16 how marvelous you know I
mean and then that kind of actually
shows a real indifference and contempt
to that young person you know if we tell
young people that they’re interesting
the whole time actually it just means
we’re not listening to them because
sometimes sometimes they’re interesting
sometimes they’re not right and and they
deserve to be taken more seriously it’s
condescending to say that because
they’re young that they are by the very
nature of it insightful and obviously by
the very nature being young you’re not
that insightful so
partly we as adults have a
responsibility to encourage young people
to recognize that in order to be taken
seriously they have something to say
this is interesting and therefore we’ve
got to tell them when they’re saying
things that darlin anodyne and and so on
and but the other thing is you know
whether they can cope this is important
isn’t it because you know the National
Union students did a survey of students
last year I think it was where 78% of
students self-reported that they’d have
mental health problems the year before
78% now I worked in mental health social
work for many years when I graduated and
I understand the absolute horrors of
mental illness but for people to
pathologize and understand her feelings
and the vicissitudes of life and exam
stress and so on as a mental health
problem it does indicate to me that they
actually aren’t coping and that in fact
we really have got a problem that young
people have internalized this sense of
vulnerability and fragility to such an
extent that they really do perceive
themselves as ill and and you know
needing protection needing intervention
to look after them infantilizing them in
fact and so again as I say we have a
responsibility to say to young people
you know this is not doing you any good
this is why I was depressed it’s that
part of the book it does get better and
so I mean coming on to I guess the more
contentious nature of freedom of speech
which is what ultimately what you’re
advocating I mean the argument which I
think can be a strong one is that it’s
ultimately speech which incites greater
acts of violence of oppression of
discrimination how where is the spectrum
there and and how do we think about
speech when it comes to incitement where
this freedom of speech end and you know
how do we teach people about those
barriers so I first of all I’m a free
speech absolutist no ifs no buts
I think that we have to be very careful
about suggesting that incitement is a
straightforward matter because it takes
responsibility for actions from the
person who acts to something that
they’ve heard so you can just say that
well I went and heard the speaker and as
a consequence I kind of launched a
racist pogrom right I mean you know no
you decided having heard the speak you
know most of the audience heard the
racist speaker and decided to become an
anti-racist as a consequence I mean it’s
not as though we all straight well we’re
not like a TAC dogs you know I I can
tell you what I think here today and
you’re all thinking different things I
mean I can’t just kind of keep saying
listen to me and do what I say I mean if
only it was so easy then education would
be a doddle wouldn’t it and you you you
that is not the way it works and but I’m
also nervous about things that we assume
are incitement because if you look at
legislation now that’s increasingly
coming in but certainly more informally
the notion of hate crime or hate speech
if you actually explore what that is
first of all even the police say that
you can call something a hate crime with
no evidence just based on the subjective
reports of it you will then find that
what people constitute hate crime might
be wearing that Chinese dress or – well
you know the famous Charlie Hebdo
cartoons right are we saying that the
Charlie Hebdo cartoonists incited
barbaric acts in Paris because they said
something which somebody considered
hateful I think not
and you might even think that they were
racist and then the final thing I’d say
is the idea that speeches harm you know
je s mil one of my great heroes the
great 19th century free speech
philosopher said that you know we should
have free speech in all instances unless
there’s a harm principle and let it harm
someone he meant a very narrow sense of
that now we have a broadened sense of
harm which is psychological harm and
that ends up basically being interpreted
is saying words that hurt me or harm me
because they upset me and that’s where
we end up with safe spaces and
platforming at universities so I think
you can hear words that you that hurt
you in the sense that you’re upset I
hear things that offend me all the time
people say horrible things to me or if
somebody says something this sexist and
misogynist and vile and personal of
course I don’t mean you know I kind of
go brush it off right but I have no
entitlement to close it down and I need
free speech to be able to argue back or
to be able to have a campaign to kind of
you know deal with that person all those
ideas yeah it’s the shutting down of
debate I suppose that that that is
perhaps the most damaging byproducts a
lot of this do you think that it’s
contributing to some of today’s
political trends that we’re observing I
think that we’ve seen this phenomenon of
first of all labeling people in a kind
of a dominant way but also by using
these you know transphobic Islamophobic
and so on is a way of closing down
debate I think that sadly we are in a
situation where we are confining
ourselves to echo chambers and you can
see that although we might laugh at or
think it’s hilarious to see young people
hiding away in their safe spaces and you
know at universities with the bubble
wrap by the way is very popular and
therapy dogs and to kind of deal with
the stresses of life you know we think
that’s all kind of oh can you imagine
how we mature and yet actually you’ll
see people saying I’m blocking so-and-so
on Twitter I’m getting rid of all of my
Facebook friends he voted brexit I’m not
having anything to do I don’t want to
hear you know I think it’s why we was so
blindsided by brexit and and Donald
Trump’s election in facts because people
were kind of so busy talking to people
who agreed with them and having their
own views narcissistically focus back on
them they didn’t notice that you know
millions and millions of people didn’t
agree with them the other thing that
we’re seeing more and more of as a
political trend is identity politics and
I find that the most divisive and
dangerous aspect that people see
themselves not as defined you know it’s
no longer what you say that matters but
who is saying it
so you will have people say you know as
a you know you as a white person could
not comment on that because that is the
preserve of black people talking about
it it’s kind of racializing in that way
as somebody who’s been involved in
women’s politics in many years I don’t
see women’s liberation as something that
women do I think it’s a matter of
equality that we should all be involved
in so demonizing men and saying you’ve
got no right to speak on that or saying
that if you haven’t suffered a sexual
abuse you’re not allowed to talk about
it I mean it kills off on capacity or
great enlightenment breakthrough where
we saw ourselves as rational objective
people who could understand the will
beyond simply having experienced it but
instead what we do is confine ourselves
in ghettos and boxes where we say no I’m
entitled to speak on that you’re not and
so those broad political trends by the
way we see them in politics all the time
it’s something that I’m watching and
getting increasingly concerned about
with women in business and technology
because these are apparently such hard
industries to be a woman in which I
don’t believe is the case I actually
think it’s a fantastic opportunity I am
noticing women assuming that when
they’re not progressing or getting not
that that it’s because of a gender
reason and possibly it could be actually
on many of those occasions but it’s
still not the best way to approach that
because it stops you self internalizing
analyzing yourself and coming up with
constructive ways in which you can
circumvent the status quo and actually
resilience building resilience to to
climb your your barriers so it is
something that I the victimhood
mentality around identity is the least
interesting thing about this you know we
all have so much more in common with
those with the same values and outlook
than we do with anyone because we share
chromosomes skin color in it whatever
else it may be and so it’s certainly
something you just very quickly on the
victim point I think that somebody is
called identity politics would rather
describe it rather well as the
oppression Olympics and there’s a
there’s a a theory called
intersectionality which is to kind of
effectively you have more right to speak
and the more you have been victimized
historically over the years so you know
what you find is is that first of all
you start up saying as a woman then you
say as a black woman or then you say as
a black disabled woman in sauna and you
kind of crude points of course if you’re
a white obsessed man you’re out and
you’ve got nowhere to go and you’re just
so privileged but it’s it’s the thing
about that is it incites people to show
their scars I mean what you end up doing
is sort of in order to gain permission
to speak you basically you know I I can
basically give you my list of terrible
things of happens my working-class
background you know my family are Irish
right
the British cause the famine every bad
thing that happened to me is because my
ancestors suffered the famine how dare
you disagree with me on I don’t know
brexit I mean you know what I mean it’s
like sort of like you you you end up in
a situation where you you trottle this
out you actually interestingly in order
to accrue your victim points what’s more
is you kind of plunder the suffering the
genuine suffering of one’s ancestors
very often and you then accrue points
that’s why you have things called
microaggressions where you basically say
very small things add up this is a
campaign called everyday sexism and they
say the most trivial things are all
added up to the equivalence of kind of
being abused as a woman but they don’t
they’re trivial things and but it’s a
way of accruing victim points mm-hmm I’m
conscious that we could talk all day and
I don’t have a clock so if anyone can
wave at me to give me a sense and we
can’t see it but I’m determined that we
don’t leave things on such a depressing
negative note come on Claire are you
confident that any of these trends can
be reversed and it’s so I guess what do
you see as some of some of the solutions
on positive ways in which we can
approach these challenges um first of
all I absolutely think these trends can
be reversed but it’s not a cycle and it
won’t happen spontaneously you know
there’s nothing more disparity when one
imagines it to think God middle-aged
woman writes book moaning about modern
youth I really saw
I was kind of letting myself in for
something one of the great things about
it is the people who’ve absolutely hated
my book educational psychologists
sociologists and people my own age who
have actually responsible for generation
snowflake and gratifyingly many of the
most enthusiastic people who’ve liked my
book are young because the point about
generations snowflake is it’s a
generational trend but it’s insulting to
young people and many young people see
and feel that they’re in a trap and
they’re walking on eggshells even
amongst their peers and they don’t want
that so what needs to happen is that
those young people are and encouraged by
us and given permission to kind of fight
back in in terms of fighting for free
speech I also think that grown-ups have
got to behave like grown-ups and lock
young people in the eye and tell them
when they’re talking nonsense have the
confidence to say what you believe not
back off and apologize at the mirrors
tense of somebody calling you a horrible
name and you know when people say I find
that offensive I say fine and I’m sorry
you do but I’m going to explain what I’m
talking about not back off think how
many people apologize straight away I
mean you’re apologizing for you kind of
finished the sentence so I’m I I think
that what my solutions are is that we
need to both launch as a society an
intellectual campaign in support of open
free debate and discussion and and we
need to encourage young people to think
critically and to get out of safe spaces
and echo chambers and I always say to
young people you know read widely read
everything right go and listen to
speakers that you’re gonna hate and if
it confirms that you hate them more
that’s good because you’ll have a better
argument because you’ll have heard their
argument you’ll know what their
weaknesses are but you might just might
have your mind change too so of course
there’s hope because every generation
even though it has its challenges has
people who are brave enough to fight
back and the academy of ideas and
through our battle of ideas festival
through our debating competition for six
film is debating matters
meets young people all the time who say
I am determined to not let this be the
the main way that my generation is known
and so we owe it to them as older people
if you’re young join that movement if
you’re if you’re a bit older and then
what we’ve got to do is to be brave and
give a lead I always took by the fact
that you need to sing some of the anti
snowflakes I think you refer to them
trying to fight fire with fire sometimes
a fence with a fence and that that is an
a productive way forward it’s it should
be one to listen cajole and actually
bring the debate forward and the
expression I always love is is to play
the ball and not the player I blame
social media and I’m younger than you so
I I don’t know whether that’s going to
be considered old-fashioned now as well
yeah I mean I think social media does
amplify these problems as you mentioned
earlier and I think it’s there are very
dangerous twitch ants because I I don’t
want to be glib about this people are
losing their jobs for miss speaking or
saying something I don’t know if you saw
but the there’s there’s some life
boatman who’ve just been sacked because
they had a mug with them some rather
sexist pictures on a kid one with one of
the lifeboat men’s heads on it yes was a
Secret Santa gift and then the RNLI
looked at their whatsapp messages
private messages between two people and
they were sacked right there were
volunteers as well when I say they were
sacked what he means is is that you earn
no money but they are no longer saving
lives on the Seas these are brave brave
people right and what the oil I said was
and you know these kind of banter and
this kind of bullying atmosphere and
this kind of attitude to women will not
be tolerated we will not tolerate it but
we’ve got to believe in free speech
that’s the point we’ve got to rediscover
what it was a free society represented
for us you know we say that we’re
worried about authoritarian regimes in
Syria in Turkey whether locking people
up in universities for saying the wrong
thing or closing
newspapers we worry about China you know
and and and we we panic about the the
the terrible way that you can
arbitrarily be you know sacked in China
for saying the wrong thing criticizing
the government and then we sat people
here because they give the wrong
Secret Santa mug away to their mate
right I mean this is this is as scary
and authoritarian in an insidious way
and it’s up to us to it’s a we live in a
free society we’re not having this I
absolutely agree and I don’t think we
could have ended on a on a on a better
night actually so Claire I thank you
very very much and I wish you all the
best with everything [Applause]
Please follow and like us: