okay good Monday morning we’ll see how
this goes
recording outside today and in the
coming weeks I’m going to release an
interview and discussion series with
four amazing developers that I had the
pleasure of interviewing at Nordic j/s
which is one of the best conferences in
Europe every single year
Nordic jest ticket sells out in hours
the bar for speaking there is very high
and of all the speakers there I have
selected for which I’ve interviewed for
you first out in this series is ISA
Silveira she is a back-end engineer
front-end engineer and a data scientist
I’m gosh I just I so a bit up because
it’s getting darker she has built
software for world class organizations
like Stanford University Planned
Parenthood and Banco Fatah achieve I
believe it’s pronounced it’s a big bank
in Brazil prior to that she worked with
scientific research at copay which is
one of Brazil’s most prestigious
research organizations ISA talks to me
about how to get feedback and work how
to be fearless as a developer and as a
team by not getting married to your
ideas I learned what the difference
between a hypothesis and a heuristic is
and in general we talk a lot about the
value of having an experimental mindset
I had such a blast doing this
first developer discussion for fun fun
function and I could not have hoped for
a better first guest
I am mpj you are watching fun fun
function and this is a developer
discussion to help for the best I feel
like I’m starting you tubing again like
I’m so happy that you agreed to do this
because we’ve been procrastinating on
doing
I’m doing collabs for so long it’s like
it’s so comfortable to be in your level
that is really something and I think
like especially for YouTube enjoying a
function for a while and that you just
have to innovate otherwise you you will
support like I tried doing that in my
job but it’s really tough cuz I hear
that there goes a small rent I think
that like France and development so far
like it has reached a very comfortable
plateau for everyone yeah and I feel
like I’ve been doing the same
ship for the past three years and that
really annoys me
I’m like oh my god okay what do I do so
I’ve been playing around with other
stuff like machine learning yeah
in what way do you feel like front-end
development has plateaued during like
when you started learning it was it like
did you feel like the whole life it feel
was actually moving somewhere oh yeah I
felt like especially because I came from
the back end so that I came from a
completely different scenario like I did
computer science said University Rio and
that is completely different like you
just can’t tons of theory and
that’s it and then I I started doing
back in development and I was fine like
doing job okay right but then I
just start really getting into the whole
like via layer and stuff and I mean at
the beginning it really felt like people
had room to innovate yeah and then when
the whole frameworks starting and like
you started popping out like reacting to
you know blah people just try to seek
for like absolute truths within what
already exists rather than trying to
like what if I created you cause like
what if I what if I like they’re doing
something that’s not like in a
boilerplate and that’s what’s like
keeping me very bored people are trying
to reach what you mentioned was an
absolute truth like like the optimal way
of doing development some of the told
stories about how it was like in the
early days of Silicon Valley because at
that time there was no such thing as
studying computer science a was it was
basically as people that the people had
gone into it were
six majors yeah yeah I’m math people
yeah so everybody was just like how do
we do this I’ve got do all kinds of
weird so there was so much
innovation going on going on around that
time it’s just ludicrous how much of the
things that we do today was invented
back then and it’s same thing like with
react and stuff just people like finding
some old paper and then they do a
framework and everybody’s like wow yeah
they’re always trying to choose what’s a
new thing like oh my god why do you
try to fit into boxes when it
can be so much more and I think it’s
really funny because I’ll have people
talk about functional programming like
it’s a cooler but that shouldn’t
dance ever since like 1950s so do you
the second crowd yeah but the thing is
that there was no Messiah like
presenting functional programming as a
choice our field is very very new if you
think about it but at the same time
there’s just so many stuff that people
already did before and people just
forget it was oh we have this very cool
model that been – fits into our problems
and that that’s what I’m a little bit
frustrating about that I wrote some
questions over there but they haven’t
synced hang on I music especially like
we are reuse David it’s okay to breathe
it’s hard can I do you want me to do
this for you I really didn’t need more
than idea so it feels like it doesn’t
really it’s really needed with you but I
figure like I want to start with a
warm-up question basically I figured
that all the people like the interviewee
needs to be start they start talking so
I want to ask like what is what is a
typical workday yeah it’s usually my
work day is it really depends on a
project because there’s a where I work
at which is working Co we have an office
in New York some offices in the USA
some offices in Brazil so depending on
the project it means that I could be
working with people in a different
office so that means like the
interaction is almost like remote work
you just have to talk to people through
slack and stuff and like usually there’s
a synchronicity to the whole
communication because you have to like
make sure that all the informations are
available in slack or either github or
Trello whatever so usually I just see
whatever it is because especially on the
first parts of the project we have to
make a lot of decisions in teams so like
you can’t really this side so that that
is really complicated because you have
to really simulation conversation and
some people are in that use of that
especially because of the cultural
differences and that is very funny
because that’s when you start feeling
like occasion I’d say this should I
propose this should I propose a solution
because do you have an example of of
that like a common cultural inertia
between your offices yeah totally it’s
usually very vivid when we have
retrospectives like project
retrospective Brazilians are usually
very like straight to the point but they
also don’t want to sort of hurt the
person so they go round and round and
round and round until they say what they
actually wanted to say which is like oh
I think you’re great and blah blah but I
think you could get better at this thing
and as from Americans it’s usually I
think you up in this and this and
this is really very straight to the
point and back sort of cultural
differences usually like sometimes get
in the way it’s not that big because at
some point in the company you just start
knowing the people but at some point it
really creates those awkward situations
where you don’t know like is a person
have a personal problem with me or it’s
just the opinion I did not know that
Brazilians were like that and there’s
actually research on this that the ranks
differents cultures on this scale of
directness and I’ve read it in the
context of this plane crash with the
Korean Airlines I believe
and they have like this to the extreme
side there’s so many layers of it you
can’t really give like this oh yeah I
think you up so it’s in in a
crisis situation it’s hard in Korean I
the formal read to say that oh we’re
electric crash I mean yeah that’s that I
mean not to that point but with
Brazilians is sort of the same way like
you have to say at least five good
it’s usually very awkward because
whenever someone is not like this we
think it’s a personal problem thank you
that’s really awkward but it’s it’s fun
because that’s really I really like to
be able to work somewhere a word and get
the interaction within people that
aren’t from my environment because I
think it makes me more rich in a sense
like probably the person is gonna have
the different baggage and like even
technically the sort of resources that
you have to learn in America or the
countries aren’t really not what we have
in Brazil so it’s always nice like
switch and share and exchange stuff
think even culturally so but it
eventually creates those situations so
how did you get started in development
like from the first time like what what
what what what’s the spark it was
actually funny because I never had a
dream of being an developer in the first
place it was all like sort of a certain
that pity because I didn’t know what to
do I was back then and I was 13 and my
parents were struggling with money like
they the kids in Brazil you can have
either public education for like high
school or even university and you have
that it you can have the private one
usually the private ones a lot better
but it costs a lot and my parents were
struggling with money and there was a
school it was a federal institution for
high school and they also had all these
sort of technical courses and my mom was
just like well I think you should apply
like yeah and I was like at that phase
out I don’t want it like I want to be
was
my friends and all along but I did take
the test and I passed and I had to
choose a course and there was like
several options but at this point you
haven’t hadn’t done on me know I dunno I
didn’t even know what code was like I
chose informatics because like my
thinking at the time was oh I really
like computer it’s like I like going
through the web and I had no idea what
the course was I thought it was gonna be
like computer maintenance or some sort
of that but it wasn’t it was like very
deep dive into programming and I started
learning C but then I was 14 but I just
fell in love with it like it was a
completely dumb luck but I just fell in
love with it so I just continued after
the technical course after I graduated I
got into the University in Rio and but
later on I eventually quit and I started
to work with front-end development but I
before that I used to work a lot with
the becken which is how I started like
working that is what kept me going into
like developing projects I even worked
for research lab in Brazil also doing
stuff with machine learning NLP yeah
talk a little bit about that you started
out in research but at that time you had
dead have a software development
background and then he got into research
why why was that and why did you move
from that um actually I always liked to
the idea of doing something that’s
practical because when you are in the
course like you’re enrolled and of
course usually you have loads of
theory but you can never actually apply
that to anything and now I I always
wanted that like contact with someone
that I could actually experience and see
going back then in ufrj it was also a
really big University for research
because they have a very big research
lab it’s really like respected Brazil so
I just thought like yeah I should try I
should try working there especially
because I I didn’t even know which way
to program me I wanted to go so I
thought like yeah by diving deep into
research maybe I can figure that out a
little bit easier obviously it wasn’t
the way it went I didn’t kept in
research for for a long time but I think
it really opened my eyes
things like it because of that I’m more
familiar to some concepts that aren’t
really from front-end developer
development but I can totally use that
in in my studies for machine learning
that I do about my own as a person that
has a background in like it’s a proper
scientific background like with
empirical data and stuff what are things
that you feel like when you interact
with other front-end developers that
don’t have that background what is there
some kind of repeating mistake that in
there like a hole in their thinking that
you observe yeah I see it a lot like I
see because when you start getting used
to research and like seeing that you
actually have to to make sure that your
assumption is right you have that like
the habit of being very sure through
data and through like experimentation if
what you’re actually thinking is is
proving to be like true but in front-end
developer Anza and and also other areas
of computing I see people like having a
really strong assumption about something
not testing at all and just moving
forward with the solution which I think
like I really missed that like people
not being as attached to their own ideas
and their own experimentations because
it could be wrongly people usually don’t
assume they could be wrong what I feel
like people that have worked a lot with
data and experimentation start shifting
their attitude a little bit towards the
concept of a idea rather than my idea or
our idea like we’re trying this
experiment we think that it’s our it’s
our hypothesis yeah I really missed the
idea of heuristics in front how do you
mean heuristics is like a hypotheses
that it could even be wrong a right but
it’s your starting point and that’s like
by that heuristic you can go down a path
that you don’t know where you’ve take
you but that’s your initial thought and
people usually take that heuristic which
is like the initial thought as the final
one so what’s the difference between a
heuristic and I
and hypothesis the hypotheses doesn’t
necessarily mean that you’re gonna like
continue work on top of it
they’re hypotheses you can just married
to it it’s fine
but the heuristics is implied the the
word implies it’s like a starting
problem or a starting idea to something
that you don’t know yet that can might
as well just pivot and change figures
what would be an example of that we use
heuristics a lot in machine learning to
like you know AI is basically the
definition of an algorithm that can like
sort of improve itself over time and
most of them work by you giving a
heuristic like am i teaching a machine
learning algorithm to just learn how to
walk in the labyrinth like to not hit on
the walls
so my first horrific is always turn to
the right so he will keep turning to the
right until he’s wrong but then the idea
will pivot then he learned that he can
change the right to the left to the
front but you have to have that starting
point otherwise like you you have no
room to grow and I think it’s a metaphor
that we can use for different areas of
development and I think when one thing
that people really don’t do a lot and I
really wish to see like more applied as
a/b testing because I mean a be testing
for me is like the application of a
heuristic like something that you think
could be like totally working but you’re
not the one to tell like your users are
gonna tell your conversion rates gonna
tell so buy a/b testing you can get a
lot more precision onto ok which sort of
component are we supposed to do right
here
so the a/b testing could be a really
good application to that in the front
end context a be testing was one of the
things that spot if I started doing
during my I’ve worked there for five
years and at the start like the company
very much had the attitude that you
talked about where it was our idea and
we just shipped things describe that
which is a big part of the organization
that they had just as their main goal
that was driven given to them by the
organization to ship their product it
exactly so it didn’t really matter if it
was successful or anybody used it was
just like we were so sure if this
is gonna save the company that like
let’s get it out
like people come really married to this
thing and as the years went by and it
took a long time to go from to a data
driven company all of I was really
committed to become a data-driven
company but even with that commitment
like shifting that attitude and that
culture to experimentation mindset took
so long it’s really interesting how how
people just change in that way like they
just think about like the team’s start
thinking like people come a bit more
relaxed to be honest yeah obviously
because you don’t have the pressure like
the personal pressure of like your idea
having to work like I and that i think
that’s liberating but people usually
because of ego I guess like a lot of
developers are really like into the
thought that okay my thing has to be
perfect or my thing is gonna save
millions where you can just be wrong
it’s fine people are wrong and I really
missed that assumption
yeah oh I want to talk about wrong like
I’m failure because one thing that I
think that we don’t talk about enough is
that most software development projects
are big our failures like most software
development it just fails
features that we roll out like they they
they mostly don’t work like perhaps 70%
maybe even higher I just to get these
things that our golden you just have to
fail a lot a lot a lot a lot so like
just exercise it’s you need to get your
muscles to point over failure that’s
where you start to grow because I mean I
never learned anything about I just just
thinking that I was right all the time
because that’s where I learned the most
about feeling and
and like being wrong about stuff and
trying something and seeing okay maybe
that’s not the way we intended to be but
I just found out because I was wrong
about this other way that I could do so
and I think most times people don’t
value it enough people are not used to
failing in the work environment people
are not used to failing and like
shipping something that isn’t gonna work
and especially when that happens people
usually don’t even talk about it like
okay how’s your project that you were
doing oh it’s fine man but a week why
didn’t you share your experience like I
never see talks at conferences about
like something that was a huge failure
but here are the key takeaways people
you don’t talk about that I think you’re
really hitting the spot there that it’s
not to talk about failures is something
like when you have a something
successful you or you share it on
Instagram you share on Twitter you do a
talk about how successful like this
thing was but in reality the reason why
you have the successful thing is
probably why you had this long as you
tried so many times and that’s I think
that this is also like basis of impostor
syndrome where people just feel like oh
they are so successful they’ve made the
successful thing and it seems like
everything they do turns to gold so you
actually had have one question whereas
like what is like a failure or something
bad that happened in your in your career
that was only your own fault like nobody
else was to blame well I actually
because I didn’t know what to do like
but then I was so in the university but
also working for the integrated system
that basically just ruled every single
thing Lee now people that use to get
scholarships people trying to get like
signed into enrolled in subjects and we
took care of just about everything and
the power that we had especially still
being students and we we had a lot of
exposition to front-end developer
development and back-end development and
DevOps and databases and obviously your
girl
you’re gonna screw up cuz like there was
some very good and very experienced
people also working there obviously
otherwise like we would probably go
nowhere but also everybody had a lot of
room to experiment and and to try new
things and obviously I didn’t know much
about database so I just I was intending
to drop a column I took the whole table
and then God we had to look for a backup
for I didn’t know it was like a full day
and we finally come back up that was
outdated by two days which we’re in that
hole but like we had a lot of angry
phone calls and I lied oh okay I just
updated why I’m not seeing like the
subject that I it wasn’t rolled that it
was like but that was really important
for me because like after that I just a
lost all fear of like doing things that
I was in UsWe after the the first thing
that you fail you just feel like okay I
failed and I survived so I can move on
so like after that I I feel very much
comfortable in trying other things and I
feel like that was such a key moment in
my life that I don’t think I would have
done so well extreme experimenting
things and like seeing myself as a web
developer but also doing machine
learning stuff maybe that wouldn’t
happen if it weren’t for that absurd
that is such a great story partially
because it’s important that you tell it
it’s important to people that are
getting started to know that failure is
necessary is a necessary part of a solid
career development to learn that your
armor is so much thicker than you
believe you think that it’s such a thing
is going to kill you but it won’t
and you go through it and you like
realize that everything can be worked
out and that’s I think that’s the that
was the most key takeaway from this
situation that I use it until this date
that was like five years ago and until
this day I still use that idea that okay
if something’s broken we can fix it
that’s what we do we solve problems we
as developers our our job is to solve
problems every day for users for us
the failure and and not being right as
an iteration and development is also a
process like you have an idea and you
iterate over it and maybe it’s gonna
fill maybe it’s gonna be right but it’s
never done especially when you work in a
in a product right now I don’t really
have that that like day-to-day basis
because since I work in an agency
I usually just hand out the projects and
that’s it like I don’t really have an
attachment or a relationship in the long
term but when you have a project to take
care of like you’re gonna try stuff that
aren’t gonna work and that’s probably
gonna be crucial for a different feature
that you didn’t even imagine in the
first place
so I think that’s super interesting for
like developers growing as professionals
so tell me about your talk okay in my
talk it’s actually it was a really firm
ride for me to just make that talk
because I I just felt like I got used to
like a lot closer to reality in Brazil
that I wasn’t new to it and I’m from
Brazil was born and raised and I live in
Rio to this point but I’m gonna talk
about how by really minding about what
performance we can like completely open
up a door to people that don’t have
access to the same opportunities as we
do and and I’m especially gonna focus on
Brazil because there’s a really
different and specific reality over
there which is a huge inequality that
goes on to Brazil because like in the
same city you can have either like
people who have a really good condition
in terms of financial stability and
stuff and at the same time like just ten
minutes away there’s people who have
absolutely no money to eat and
Brazilians have this thing where we are
really addicted on the internet people
just use the internet to communicate
with just about everyone or just to
learn things we what’s up there is
really huge I mean basically everyone
uses and like nowadays we have
businesses using whatsapp as a main tool
to communicate with their clients and
you just have like you can schedule
dinners with lots I’d like people don’t
call each other anymore so everything is
very internet-based
and I realized by doing all these
projects that when you take a look at
the analytics to know like what devices
were internet connections you’re having
an ear project in in Brazilian projects
I realized that that was really like the
disparity was amazing because like it
you could get people using the latest
iPhone at the same time as someone that
has like a motor g-iii
and that is really chaotic in terms of
web development yes that’s very unique
especially because we have that like
reality that’s reality of Brazil it’s
just like a mirror because it’s like
this every day if you take a look at the
whole society in Brazil especially the
big centers which are some Paulo Rio you
can see that every single day you see
people that like eat that the fence es
restaurants and like have the greatest
things and travel abroad all the time
and you also have people that like are
begging for many years leaping on the
streets and that is also very much
reflected in development and in the
digital world because of that after like
realizing ok this is actually a mirror
this report that I’m seeing like we have
to do something about it and by not
doing something about it by not in like
shipping websites that are fast enough
we might as well like be cutting down
the opportunities that I had like to
just go online and learn something
because it’s our major tool like going
online and searching things that’s how
we learn nowadays but if we don’t have
like websites that are fast enough maybe
we’re limiting that maybe we’re limiting
how how far a person can go because of
that and that is really that’s very
critical in Brazil especially because
you you often have to depend on it to
schedule I mean very trivial things like
getting your ID renewed that’s just
online we don’t use phones for that
anymore but at the same time like if
that website isn’t fast enough maybe
you’re like the person who’s not gonna
have the same very thing that everyone
has it and that’s a very unique
environment that I really wanted to like
share with the rest of the world and
and just making sure that people know
that when we are developing a website
just optimizing for an iPhone 10 that is
in reality I think that the mindset that
you’re describing is extremely useful to
have in general I can share Spotify
story at Spotify they do this did is at
the time when I started and it is pretty
cocky thing that you didn’t really you
didn’t get spotify premium but there you
had to buy it on your own and and really
didn’t matter people did anyway because
there were software engineers and they
were kinds of Spotify that’s why they
started working as qualifying so that
meant that everybody had Spotify Spotify
Premium but I mean people always start
out using the free version sure here
yeah and it’s it’s it’s a huge product a
product and it’s the it’s more or less
the reason for Spotify success because I
had you have a proper premium service
but nobody at Spotify used it so nobody
knew how bad it was it was so annoying
to use so what what we ended up doing
was actually have the thing
automatically switched to Spotify free
on certain days yes to make sure that we
actually used our own product and all
aspects of the product like this is the
experience that people have when they
first asked for you have forgotten about
this or maybe like the Spotify free tier
was very different when we started using
it many years ago like this is what it
looks like now and after we started
doing that the the free version improved
tremendously yes because like there was
so much more the organization just
became so much more conscious about what
the life of their users what it was like
like being able to put yourself into the
into the mindset of the user by living
it yeah that’s something that I actually
mentioned in my talk because the thing
is that when we were thinking about a
web application you have to put yourself
in the users shoes and that meant like
not just the users that had the same
conditions as you developing that
website because it’s usually great like
in offices we had the best Internet’s we
have like a 20 29 inch monitor
which no one uses in real life so I mean
so yeah we really have to go outside
your comfort zone one thing that I like
I often do when I’m developing your
website I tried to ask for the company
to out to buy the the like low tire with
devices like get me the Moto G III give
me the Moto G 4 because that’s like the
average phone right now add you as many
he ride he wrote a very interesting
article about the cost of javascript in
two to 2018 and he mentions like people
that the the most common device in the
world right now is moto G 4 and there is
even like lesser capable devices still
being very frequently used and we are
never gonna be able to experience what a
website must feel like if you’re not
actually trying to go outside of the the
conditions that we work at which are
usually very great so which I think it’s
something that completely changed the
way I develop it completely change the
way I see digital projects and I think
it really helps me understand that like
maybe we don’t need a feature if it’s
not like perfect in all devices because
if it’s perfect for iPhone ok some
portions of your where your users are
gonna have it but like if you have a
beautiful animation in iPhone but it’s
really bad on g4 it’s not worth shipping
it like just don’t do it just make sure
that you have the same experience for
everyone and especially when that limits
access to some sort of very critical
resources such as education such as
services and especially the people who
develop for those kinds of things have
to be especially an extra mindful about
that I have I had a lot of experience
with working in a banking project which
is again a very crucial thing because it
doesn’t matter how much money you have
you have to swear it somewhere I’m sorry
it’s not gonna be under the mattress
it’s gonna be in a bank
so bank websites have to be very good at
very different like devices and
and everything and the having that sort
of experience just really helped me
understanding that that’s a thing
especially if even if you’re not doing
like something that is a very like large
reach when you optimize to make sure
that everyone can use it you actually
even get a very competitive advantage
because even though if your users not
having a hard time loading it he’s
obviously gonna be very grateful for the
website being very fast or very
performant like you’re gonna have better
things you’re gonna be like your users
are probably gonna see your ads because
it’s a it’s a thing nowadays like most
websites are monetized by apps right by
ads so it’s a really important thing and
you end up getting all these nice things
just because you’re trying to care for
the person that doesn’t have the same
opportunities as you do and I think
that’s the real game changer changer in
the area yeah god I switched a messenger
now to telegram some switch oh yes
because it’s you start using it and just
mmm it’s so snappy and I can’t imagine
that that could be for any other reason
that they test on their low-end phones
so nice when apps start and that’s just
a lost art I think yeah obviously and
like starting immediately and not like
getting too much of out of your data
plan because even though you feel have
money for a daily plan you’re probably
not gonna be like happy when the whole
like 10 gigabytes that you just bought
are over because you’re trying you
something in a website but it’s also
connected so like an application that
doesn’t use a lot of data on your data
fine also yours doesn’t use a lot of
data period so it’s going to be fast yes
it’s gonna be fabulous for everyone and
like by everyone you have a really have
to mean everyone and I think even if you
don’t have because we’re talking in
Sweden so Union is probably not a
country where people have that problem
often but at the same time like maybe
something that you’re developing here is
gonna be accessed by someone in a very
completely different country or context
as you are so it’s very important even
for someone that is not in that
situation where where can people find
you online mostly on Twitter
what’s your it’s sue Vader underlined
bells yeah I will put it you have to
yeah especially because it’s Portuguese
and yeah I got a better stuff
alright brilliant it has been such a
pleasure talking to you yeah I can see
thank you for having me for the
invitation it’s really an honor to be
here it’s an honor to have you just
nailed this interview visit if you want
to follow
Etha oh my god might make a space
falling asleep ha if you want to follow
issa you can find a link to her twitter
profile in the episode description you
can also find her and link to her talk
in the episode ascription as well ah the
autofocus is scrolling up because I
don’t have enough light anymore
uh recording outside is a horrible idea
do you have just watched an episode of
fun fun function I released these every
Monday morning
Ohr the GMT but don’t forget that so you
can subscribe here or you can watch
another episode right now I’ll click in
their eye and then PJ until next Monday
morning thank you [Music]
this goes
recording outside today and in the
coming weeks I’m going to release an
interview and discussion series with
four amazing developers that I had the
pleasure of interviewing at Nordic j/s
which is one of the best conferences in
Europe every single year
Nordic jest ticket sells out in hours
the bar for speaking there is very high
and of all the speakers there I have
selected for which I’ve interviewed for
you first out in this series is ISA
Silveira she is a back-end engineer
front-end engineer and a data scientist
I’m gosh I just I so a bit up because
it’s getting darker she has built
software for world class organizations
like Stanford University Planned
Parenthood and Banco Fatah achieve I
believe it’s pronounced it’s a big bank
in Brazil prior to that she worked with
scientific research at copay which is
one of Brazil’s most prestigious
research organizations ISA talks to me
about how to get feedback and work how
to be fearless as a developer and as a
team by not getting married to your
ideas I learned what the difference
between a hypothesis and a heuristic is
and in general we talk a lot about the
value of having an experimental mindset
I had such a blast doing this
first developer discussion for fun fun
function and I could not have hoped for
a better first guest
I am mpj you are watching fun fun
function and this is a developer
discussion to help for the best I feel
like I’m starting you tubing again like
I’m so happy that you agreed to do this
because we’ve been procrastinating on
doing
I’m doing collabs for so long it’s like
it’s so comfortable to be in your level
that is really something and I think
like especially for YouTube enjoying a
function for a while and that you just
have to innovate otherwise you you will
support like I tried doing that in my
job but it’s really tough cuz I hear
that there goes a small rent I think
that like France and development so far
like it has reached a very comfortable
plateau for everyone yeah and I feel
like I’ve been doing the same
ship for the past three years and that
really annoys me
I’m like oh my god okay what do I do so
I’ve been playing around with other
stuff like machine learning yeah
in what way do you feel like front-end
development has plateaued during like
when you started learning it was it like
did you feel like the whole life it feel
was actually moving somewhere oh yeah I
felt like especially because I came from
the back end so that I came from a
completely different scenario like I did
computer science said University Rio and
that is completely different like you
just can’t tons of theory and
that’s it and then I I started doing
back in development and I was fine like
doing job okay right but then I
just start really getting into the whole
like via layer and stuff and I mean at
the beginning it really felt like people
had room to innovate yeah and then when
the whole frameworks starting and like
you started popping out like reacting to
you know blah people just try to seek
for like absolute truths within what
already exists rather than trying to
like what if I created you cause like
what if I what if I like they’re doing
something that’s not like in a
boilerplate and that’s what’s like
keeping me very bored people are trying
to reach what you mentioned was an
absolute truth like like the optimal way
of doing development some of the told
stories about how it was like in the
early days of Silicon Valley because at
that time there was no such thing as
studying computer science a was it was
basically as people that the people had
gone into it were
six majors yeah yeah I’m math people
yeah so everybody was just like how do
we do this I’ve got do all kinds of
weird so there was so much
innovation going on going on around that
time it’s just ludicrous how much of the
things that we do today was invented
back then and it’s same thing like with
react and stuff just people like finding
some old paper and then they do a
framework and everybody’s like wow yeah
they’re always trying to choose what’s a
new thing like oh my god why do you
try to fit into boxes when it
can be so much more and I think it’s
really funny because I’ll have people
talk about functional programming like
it’s a cooler but that shouldn’t
dance ever since like 1950s so do you
the second crowd yeah but the thing is
that there was no Messiah like
presenting functional programming as a
choice our field is very very new if you
think about it but at the same time
there’s just so many stuff that people
already did before and people just
forget it was oh we have this very cool
model that been – fits into our problems
and that that’s what I’m a little bit
frustrating about that I wrote some
questions over there but they haven’t
synced hang on I music especially like
we are reuse David it’s okay to breathe
it’s hard can I do you want me to do
this for you I really didn’t need more
than idea so it feels like it doesn’t
really it’s really needed with you but I
figure like I want to start with a
warm-up question basically I figured
that all the people like the interviewee
needs to be start they start talking so
I want to ask like what is what is a
typical workday yeah it’s usually my
work day is it really depends on a
project because there’s a where I work
at which is working Co we have an office
in New York some offices in the USA
some offices in Brazil so depending on
the project it means that I could be
working with people in a different
office so that means like the
interaction is almost like remote work
you just have to talk to people through
slack and stuff and like usually there’s
a synchronicity to the whole
communication because you have to like
make sure that all the informations are
available in slack or either github or
Trello whatever so usually I just see
whatever it is because especially on the
first parts of the project we have to
make a lot of decisions in teams so like
you can’t really this side so that that
is really complicated because you have
to really simulation conversation and
some people are in that use of that
especially because of the cultural
differences and that is very funny
because that’s when you start feeling
like occasion I’d say this should I
propose this should I propose a solution
because do you have an example of of
that like a common cultural inertia
between your offices yeah totally it’s
usually very vivid when we have
retrospectives like project
retrospective Brazilians are usually
very like straight to the point but they
also don’t want to sort of hurt the
person so they go round and round and
round and round until they say what they
actually wanted to say which is like oh
I think you’re great and blah blah but I
think you could get better at this thing
and as from Americans it’s usually I
think you up in this and this and
this is really very straight to the
point and back sort of cultural
differences usually like sometimes get
in the way it’s not that big because at
some point in the company you just start
knowing the people but at some point it
really creates those awkward situations
where you don’t know like is a person
have a personal problem with me or it’s
just the opinion I did not know that
Brazilians were like that and there’s
actually research on this that the ranks
differents cultures on this scale of
directness and I’ve read it in the
context of this plane crash with the
Korean Airlines I believe
and they have like this to the extreme
side there’s so many layers of it you
can’t really give like this oh yeah I
think you up so it’s in in a
crisis situation it’s hard in Korean I
the formal read to say that oh we’re
electric crash I mean yeah that’s that I
mean not to that point but with
Brazilians is sort of the same way like
you have to say at least five good
it’s usually very awkward because
whenever someone is not like this we
think it’s a personal problem thank you
that’s really awkward but it’s it’s fun
because that’s really I really like to
be able to work somewhere a word and get
the interaction within people that
aren’t from my environment because I
think it makes me more rich in a sense
like probably the person is gonna have
the different baggage and like even
technically the sort of resources that
you have to learn in America or the
countries aren’t really not what we have
in Brazil so it’s always nice like
switch and share and exchange stuff
think even culturally so but it
eventually creates those situations so
how did you get started in development
like from the first time like what what
what what what’s the spark it was
actually funny because I never had a
dream of being an developer in the first
place it was all like sort of a certain
that pity because I didn’t know what to
do I was back then and I was 13 and my
parents were struggling with money like
they the kids in Brazil you can have
either public education for like high
school or even university and you have
that it you can have the private one
usually the private ones a lot better
but it costs a lot and my parents were
struggling with money and there was a
school it was a federal institution for
high school and they also had all these
sort of technical courses and my mom was
just like well I think you should apply
like yeah and I was like at that phase
out I don’t want it like I want to be
was
my friends and all along but I did take
the test and I passed and I had to
choose a course and there was like
several options but at this point you
haven’t hadn’t done on me know I dunno I
didn’t even know what code was like I
chose informatics because like my
thinking at the time was oh I really
like computer it’s like I like going
through the web and I had no idea what
the course was I thought it was gonna be
like computer maintenance or some sort
of that but it wasn’t it was like very
deep dive into programming and I started
learning C but then I was 14 but I just
fell in love with it like it was a
completely dumb luck but I just fell in
love with it so I just continued after
the technical course after I graduated I
got into the University in Rio and but
later on I eventually quit and I started
to work with front-end development but I
before that I used to work a lot with
the becken which is how I started like
working that is what kept me going into
like developing projects I even worked
for research lab in Brazil also doing
stuff with machine learning NLP yeah
talk a little bit about that you started
out in research but at that time you had
dead have a software development
background and then he got into research
why why was that and why did you move
from that um actually I always liked to
the idea of doing something that’s
practical because when you are in the
course like you’re enrolled and of
course usually you have loads of
theory but you can never actually apply
that to anything and now I I always
wanted that like contact with someone
that I could actually experience and see
going back then in ufrj it was also a
really big University for research
because they have a very big research
lab it’s really like respected Brazil so
I just thought like yeah I should try I
should try working there especially
because I I didn’t even know which way
to program me I wanted to go so I
thought like yeah by diving deep into
research maybe I can figure that out a
little bit easier obviously it wasn’t
the way it went I didn’t kept in
research for for a long time but I think
it really opened my eyes
things like it because of that I’m more
familiar to some concepts that aren’t
really from front-end developer
development but I can totally use that
in in my studies for machine learning
that I do about my own as a person that
has a background in like it’s a proper
scientific background like with
empirical data and stuff what are things
that you feel like when you interact
with other front-end developers that
don’t have that background what is there
some kind of repeating mistake that in
there like a hole in their thinking that
you observe yeah I see it a lot like I
see because when you start getting used
to research and like seeing that you
actually have to to make sure that your
assumption is right you have that like
the habit of being very sure through
data and through like experimentation if
what you’re actually thinking is is
proving to be like true but in front-end
developer Anza and and also other areas
of computing I see people like having a
really strong assumption about something
not testing at all and just moving
forward with the solution which I think
like I really missed that like people
not being as attached to their own ideas
and their own experimentations because
it could be wrongly people usually don’t
assume they could be wrong what I feel
like people that have worked a lot with
data and experimentation start shifting
their attitude a little bit towards the
concept of a idea rather than my idea or
our idea like we’re trying this
experiment we think that it’s our it’s
our hypothesis yeah I really missed the
idea of heuristics in front how do you
mean heuristics is like a hypotheses
that it could even be wrong a right but
it’s your starting point and that’s like
by that heuristic you can go down a path
that you don’t know where you’ve take
you but that’s your initial thought and
people usually take that heuristic which
is like the initial thought as the final
one so what’s the difference between a
heuristic and I
and hypothesis the hypotheses doesn’t
necessarily mean that you’re gonna like
continue work on top of it
they’re hypotheses you can just married
to it it’s fine
but the heuristics is implied the the
word implies it’s like a starting
problem or a starting idea to something
that you don’t know yet that can might
as well just pivot and change figures
what would be an example of that we use
heuristics a lot in machine learning to
like you know AI is basically the
definition of an algorithm that can like
sort of improve itself over time and
most of them work by you giving a
heuristic like am i teaching a machine
learning algorithm to just learn how to
walk in the labyrinth like to not hit on
the walls
so my first horrific is always turn to
the right so he will keep turning to the
right until he’s wrong but then the idea
will pivot then he learned that he can
change the right to the left to the
front but you have to have that starting
point otherwise like you you have no
room to grow and I think it’s a metaphor
that we can use for different areas of
development and I think when one thing
that people really don’t do a lot and I
really wish to see like more applied as
a/b testing because I mean a be testing
for me is like the application of a
heuristic like something that you think
could be like totally working but you’re
not the one to tell like your users are
gonna tell your conversion rates gonna
tell so buy a/b testing you can get a
lot more precision onto ok which sort of
component are we supposed to do right
here
so the a/b testing could be a really
good application to that in the front
end context a be testing was one of the
things that spot if I started doing
during my I’ve worked there for five
years and at the start like the company
very much had the attitude that you
talked about where it was our idea and
we just shipped things describe that
which is a big part of the organization
that they had just as their main goal
that was driven given to them by the
organization to ship their product it
exactly so it didn’t really matter if it
was successful or anybody used it was
just like we were so sure if this
is gonna save the company that like
let’s get it out
like people come really married to this
thing and as the years went by and it
took a long time to go from to a data
driven company all of I was really
committed to become a data-driven
company but even with that commitment
like shifting that attitude and that
culture to experimentation mindset took
so long it’s really interesting how how
people just change in that way like they
just think about like the team’s start
thinking like people come a bit more
relaxed to be honest yeah obviously
because you don’t have the pressure like
the personal pressure of like your idea
having to work like I and that i think
that’s liberating but people usually
because of ego I guess like a lot of
developers are really like into the
thought that okay my thing has to be
perfect or my thing is gonna save
millions where you can just be wrong
it’s fine people are wrong and I really
missed that assumption
yeah oh I want to talk about wrong like
I’m failure because one thing that I
think that we don’t talk about enough is
that most software development projects
are big our failures like most software
development it just fails
features that we roll out like they they
they mostly don’t work like perhaps 70%
maybe even higher I just to get these
things that our golden you just have to
fail a lot a lot a lot a lot so like
just exercise it’s you need to get your
muscles to point over failure that’s
where you start to grow because I mean I
never learned anything about I just just
thinking that I was right all the time
because that’s where I learned the most
about feeling and
and like being wrong about stuff and
trying something and seeing okay maybe
that’s not the way we intended to be but
I just found out because I was wrong
about this other way that I could do so
and I think most times people don’t
value it enough people are not used to
failing in the work environment people
are not used to failing and like
shipping something that isn’t gonna work
and especially when that happens people
usually don’t even talk about it like
okay how’s your project that you were
doing oh it’s fine man but a week why
didn’t you share your experience like I
never see talks at conferences about
like something that was a huge failure
but here are the key takeaways people
you don’t talk about that I think you’re
really hitting the spot there that it’s
not to talk about failures is something
like when you have a something
successful you or you share it on
Instagram you share on Twitter you do a
talk about how successful like this
thing was but in reality the reason why
you have the successful thing is
probably why you had this long as you
tried so many times and that’s I think
that this is also like basis of impostor
syndrome where people just feel like oh
they are so successful they’ve made the
successful thing and it seems like
everything they do turns to gold so you
actually had have one question whereas
like what is like a failure or something
bad that happened in your in your career
that was only your own fault like nobody
else was to blame well I actually
because I didn’t know what to do like
but then I was so in the university but
also working for the integrated system
that basically just ruled every single
thing Lee now people that use to get
scholarships people trying to get like
signed into enrolled in subjects and we
took care of just about everything and
the power that we had especially still
being students and we we had a lot of
exposition to front-end developer
development and back-end development and
DevOps and databases and obviously your
girl
you’re gonna screw up cuz like there was
some very good and very experienced
people also working there obviously
otherwise like we would probably go
nowhere but also everybody had a lot of
room to experiment and and to try new
things and obviously I didn’t know much
about database so I just I was intending
to drop a column I took the whole table
and then God we had to look for a backup
for I didn’t know it was like a full day
and we finally come back up that was
outdated by two days which we’re in that
hole but like we had a lot of angry
phone calls and I lied oh okay I just
updated why I’m not seeing like the
subject that I it wasn’t rolled that it
was like but that was really important
for me because like after that I just a
lost all fear of like doing things that
I was in UsWe after the the first thing
that you fail you just feel like okay I
failed and I survived so I can move on
so like after that I I feel very much
comfortable in trying other things and I
feel like that was such a key moment in
my life that I don’t think I would have
done so well extreme experimenting
things and like seeing myself as a web
developer but also doing machine
learning stuff maybe that wouldn’t
happen if it weren’t for that absurd
that is such a great story partially
because it’s important that you tell it
it’s important to people that are
getting started to know that failure is
necessary is a necessary part of a solid
career development to learn that your
armor is so much thicker than you
believe you think that it’s such a thing
is going to kill you but it won’t
and you go through it and you like
realize that everything can be worked
out and that’s I think that’s the that
was the most key takeaway from this
situation that I use it until this date
that was like five years ago and until
this day I still use that idea that okay
if something’s broken we can fix it
that’s what we do we solve problems we
as developers our our job is to solve
problems every day for users for us
the failure and and not being right as
an iteration and development is also a
process like you have an idea and you
iterate over it and maybe it’s gonna
fill maybe it’s gonna be right but it’s
never done especially when you work in a
in a product right now I don’t really
have that that like day-to-day basis
because since I work in an agency
I usually just hand out the projects and
that’s it like I don’t really have an
attachment or a relationship in the long
term but when you have a project to take
care of like you’re gonna try stuff that
aren’t gonna work and that’s probably
gonna be crucial for a different feature
that you didn’t even imagine in the
first place
so I think that’s super interesting for
like developers growing as professionals
so tell me about your talk okay in my
talk it’s actually it was a really firm
ride for me to just make that talk
because I I just felt like I got used to
like a lot closer to reality in Brazil
that I wasn’t new to it and I’m from
Brazil was born and raised and I live in
Rio to this point but I’m gonna talk
about how by really minding about what
performance we can like completely open
up a door to people that don’t have
access to the same opportunities as we
do and and I’m especially gonna focus on
Brazil because there’s a really
different and specific reality over
there which is a huge inequality that
goes on to Brazil because like in the
same city you can have either like
people who have a really good condition
in terms of financial stability and
stuff and at the same time like just ten
minutes away there’s people who have
absolutely no money to eat and
Brazilians have this thing where we are
really addicted on the internet people
just use the internet to communicate
with just about everyone or just to
learn things we what’s up there is
really huge I mean basically everyone
uses and like nowadays we have
businesses using whatsapp as a main tool
to communicate with their clients and
you just have like you can schedule
dinners with lots I’d like people don’t
call each other anymore so everything is
very internet-based
and I realized by doing all these
projects that when you take a look at
the analytics to know like what devices
were internet connections you’re having
an ear project in in Brazilian projects
I realized that that was really like the
disparity was amazing because like it
you could get people using the latest
iPhone at the same time as someone that
has like a motor g-iii
and that is really chaotic in terms of
web development yes that’s very unique
especially because we have that like
reality that’s reality of Brazil it’s
just like a mirror because it’s like
this every day if you take a look at the
whole society in Brazil especially the
big centers which are some Paulo Rio you
can see that every single day you see
people that like eat that the fence es
restaurants and like have the greatest
things and travel abroad all the time
and you also have people that like are
begging for many years leaping on the
streets and that is also very much
reflected in development and in the
digital world because of that after like
realizing ok this is actually a mirror
this report that I’m seeing like we have
to do something about it and by not
doing something about it by not in like
shipping websites that are fast enough
we might as well like be cutting down
the opportunities that I had like to
just go online and learn something
because it’s our major tool like going
online and searching things that’s how
we learn nowadays but if we don’t have
like websites that are fast enough maybe
we’re limiting that maybe we’re limiting
how how far a person can go because of
that and that is really that’s very
critical in Brazil especially because
you you often have to depend on it to
schedule I mean very trivial things like
getting your ID renewed that’s just
online we don’t use phones for that
anymore but at the same time like if
that website isn’t fast enough maybe
you’re like the person who’s not gonna
have the same very thing that everyone
has it and that’s a very unique
environment that I really wanted to like
share with the rest of the world and
and just making sure that people know
that when we are developing a website
just optimizing for an iPhone 10 that is
in reality I think that the mindset that
you’re describing is extremely useful to
have in general I can share Spotify
story at Spotify they do this did is at
the time when I started and it is pretty
cocky thing that you didn’t really you
didn’t get spotify premium but there you
had to buy it on your own and and really
didn’t matter people did anyway because
there were software engineers and they
were kinds of Spotify that’s why they
started working as qualifying so that
meant that everybody had Spotify Spotify
Premium but I mean people always start
out using the free version sure here
yeah and it’s it’s it’s a huge product a
product and it’s the it’s more or less
the reason for Spotify success because I
had you have a proper premium service
but nobody at Spotify used it so nobody
knew how bad it was it was so annoying
to use so what what we ended up doing
was actually have the thing
automatically switched to Spotify free
on certain days yes to make sure that we
actually used our own product and all
aspects of the product like this is the
experience that people have when they
first asked for you have forgotten about
this or maybe like the Spotify free tier
was very different when we started using
it many years ago like this is what it
looks like now and after we started
doing that the the free version improved
tremendously yes because like there was
so much more the organization just
became so much more conscious about what
the life of their users what it was like
like being able to put yourself into the
into the mindset of the user by living
it yeah that’s something that I actually
mentioned in my talk because the thing
is that when we were thinking about a
web application you have to put yourself
in the users shoes and that meant like
not just the users that had the same
conditions as you developing that
website because it’s usually great like
in offices we had the best Internet’s we
have like a 20 29 inch monitor
which no one uses in real life so I mean
so yeah we really have to go outside
your comfort zone one thing that I like
I often do when I’m developing your
website I tried to ask for the company
to out to buy the the like low tire with
devices like get me the Moto G III give
me the Moto G 4 because that’s like the
average phone right now add you as many
he ride he wrote a very interesting
article about the cost of javascript in
two to 2018 and he mentions like people
that the the most common device in the
world right now is moto G 4 and there is
even like lesser capable devices still
being very frequently used and we are
never gonna be able to experience what a
website must feel like if you’re not
actually trying to go outside of the the
conditions that we work at which are
usually very great so which I think it’s
something that completely changed the
way I develop it completely change the
way I see digital projects and I think
it really helps me understand that like
maybe we don’t need a feature if it’s
not like perfect in all devices because
if it’s perfect for iPhone ok some
portions of your where your users are
gonna have it but like if you have a
beautiful animation in iPhone but it’s
really bad on g4 it’s not worth shipping
it like just don’t do it just make sure
that you have the same experience for
everyone and especially when that limits
access to some sort of very critical
resources such as education such as
services and especially the people who
develop for those kinds of things have
to be especially an extra mindful about
that I have I had a lot of experience
with working in a banking project which
is again a very crucial thing because it
doesn’t matter how much money you have
you have to swear it somewhere I’m sorry
it’s not gonna be under the mattress
it’s gonna be in a bank
so bank websites have to be very good at
very different like devices and
and everything and the having that sort
of experience just really helped me
understanding that that’s a thing
especially if even if you’re not doing
like something that is a very like large
reach when you optimize to make sure
that everyone can use it you actually
even get a very competitive advantage
because even though if your users not
having a hard time loading it he’s
obviously gonna be very grateful for the
website being very fast or very
performant like you’re gonna have better
things you’re gonna be like your users
are probably gonna see your ads because
it’s a it’s a thing nowadays like most
websites are monetized by apps right by
ads so it’s a really important thing and
you end up getting all these nice things
just because you’re trying to care for
the person that doesn’t have the same
opportunities as you do and I think
that’s the real game changer changer in
the area yeah god I switched a messenger
now to telegram some switch oh yes
because it’s you start using it and just
mmm it’s so snappy and I can’t imagine
that that could be for any other reason
that they test on their low-end phones
so nice when apps start and that’s just
a lost art I think yeah obviously and
like starting immediately and not like
getting too much of out of your data
plan because even though you feel have
money for a daily plan you’re probably
not gonna be like happy when the whole
like 10 gigabytes that you just bought
are over because you’re trying you
something in a website but it’s also
connected so like an application that
doesn’t use a lot of data on your data
fine also yours doesn’t use a lot of
data period so it’s going to be fast yes
it’s gonna be fabulous for everyone and
like by everyone you have a really have
to mean everyone and I think even if you
don’t have because we’re talking in
Sweden so Union is probably not a
country where people have that problem
often but at the same time like maybe
something that you’re developing here is
gonna be accessed by someone in a very
completely different country or context
as you are so it’s very important even
for someone that is not in that
situation where where can people find
you online mostly on Twitter
what’s your it’s sue Vader underlined
bells yeah I will put it you have to
yeah especially because it’s Portuguese
and yeah I got a better stuff
alright brilliant it has been such a
pleasure talking to you yeah I can see
thank you for having me for the
invitation it’s really an honor to be
here it’s an honor to have you just
nailed this interview visit if you want
to follow
Etha oh my god might make a space
falling asleep ha if you want to follow
issa you can find a link to her twitter
profile in the episode description you
can also find her and link to her talk
in the episode ascription as well ah the
autofocus is scrolling up because I
don’t have enough light anymore
uh recording outside is a horrible idea
do you have just watched an episode of
fun fun function I released these every
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another episode right now I’ll click in
their eye and then PJ until next Monday
morning thank you [Music]
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