all right everybody welcome to another
Google Plus hangout today I’m really
excited I have a special guest with me
on the call with me
Dheeraj Pandey from a company called new
tonics and why I’m excited is you know
this business has gone from zero startup
in 2009 to now being valued at two
billion dollars they provide all the
technology and back-end and servers and
infrastructure for for huge companies
like eBay and Honda and Toyota and what
really excites me is the founder Dee Raj
who I have with me today started the
business off of one word and his one
word is empathy and we’ve had a few
entrepreneurs on talking about their one
words how they applied it to the
business and when I read about Dheeraj
and and his empathy Wars I gotta get him
on we’ve got to get the interview and
hopefully you can share how that company
got started where empathy plays in and
for those of you who are watching I
think you know fill in your own
businesses or in that process how you
might be able to find your word and
apply to your company so Dheeraj welcome
to the show thank you thank you for the
opportunity so what does empathy mean to
you it’s a very simple and very
beautiful world to meet about focus and
focus on them as opposed to yourself but
and when I say them I mean employees and
customers and partners so if you focus
on their interests good things happen to
you as well and and most people in the
world actually operate that way I mean
obviously there’s always a few guys who
are on the fringes and you can be burned
if you try to focus on their interest
but most things in the world actually if
you if you try to do it for them and do
it right by them good things happen to
you
that’s what empathy means to us and and
this company is very focused on
employees and customers trying to do it
right by them
I love it is it how did you discover
empathy as being the right word is this
something that’s always been with you is
there a you know story from your child
how did you come across this and saying
I’m gonna build a business around
empathy you know probably has been there
from very early days where maybe I was
and somebody who was a little bit
introverted early on and looked at what
others expect of me and over time that
really became what are others thinking
and then you’re like so what makes them
happy and then eventually splat well
we’ll do a business what makes customers
really happy and why do employers stick
around and you really start thinking
about others which I think has been
there with me from very early on it
isn’t something from your parents that
instilled in you or they’re really
starting like my father was probably
always like this always thinking about
others and politeness and sharing and
all that stuff so I think my father is
there I’m curious is there a a specific
story you remember or something that
your father always used to tell you that
you still remember – today I think you
know India was a very caste system
reduce aasaiya tea and I grew up in
India and he was always thinking about
the have-nots all the time you know you
know look I think we have some sort of
like a very rich but came from a lower
middle class family but even with what
we had he was always thinking about the
have-nots and especially people from the
lower caste and so on and I think the
feudal society the I mean there was a
lot of child labor and all that stuff
that we saw and I think he was very I
would say respectful of the lower castes
in the country and always respectful at
with it folks were poor and so on and
that kind of reflected at me that he was
very polite and we were always giving to
the beggars and this and that so I think
over time that that
expect for the have not really became
more about others and to think about
others and so on and my mom also was
also very giving to others in with
whatever little we had so I think some
of that just got in green over time you
think about others and and in the
process you will feel happy as well so
this is not being selfless it’s just
another way of being selfish it’s like
you know you take care of others and you
probably feel happy about it I love it I
love it
now you have a co-founder you have
investors you know you have employees
when you were starting this up when and
you said you know I want to build this
business with empathy being our main
core value did people did you get people
who thought you are not people who hated
on it that everybody just loved it right
out of the gate how did you handle that
you know you never make it very explicit
because if you make it too explicit then
it starts being artificial it’s in the
day to day things that you do that
matter and you don’t even probably put a
moniker like empathy for a lot of those
things I mean now that I’m looking back
probably I put a moniker like empathy
but many a time it’s just natural it’s
just it’s like even the product that we
build always thinking about so what is
the customer really want and what makes
it really simple for them and what gives
them the peace of mind and and in these
cases I mean you’d say this is just
natural product management or product
definition and so on but I think if you
peel the onion a little bit it’s about
saying you know what did you empathize
with the customer rather than trying to
geek out and just write a bunch of code
or build a bunch of features that were
just a bunch of features you really
really think through from the eyes of
the customer and so on so I never really
put a moniker to it most of the time
actually I just don’t behave as if it’s
part of the normal day-to-day company
building and you know being fair with
employees and partners and so on I know
you
do a lot for your employees as well I
know you do 100% of the employees health
costs 20% of dependents there was 10,000
for family for unexpected medical
thoughts and so how is that empathy for
you in terms of dealing with employees I
think it begins with tangibles like you
know can you take care of their benefits
without there having to worry about it
because if somebody did this to me I’d
be really happy you know this was the
time when Obamacare a lot of this health
care stuff was looking like a liability
to the employers and we said you know
what I think we can beam count a lot but
what if we actually really did it right
by the employee then they’ll do a whole
lot more for the company where health
care becomes a non-issue benefits become
a non-issue again if we have trust and
are good people and most of our people
actually are trustworthy in fact all of
them I hope trustworthy then wide beam
count vacations why can’t we just have
them kind of talk to the manager and say
you know I really need something and
when they come back they actually give
that more to the company in terms of
whatever it means you know burning the
midnight oil and sticking by the
Christmas holidays or whatever I think
most people actually do that it’s a it’s
it’s the it’s the best quid pro quo that
actually works you know you know same
thing with you know thinking about
career advancement and and their
education and enablement and things like
that we are we’re always thinking what’s
fair for the employees first because
many times when you think like a
corporation you’re always thinking that
they are at odds with you because they
are the employee and you the employer
and and I think the many people in the
world are very skeptical about you know
what if you don’t take care of your
interest and most of the world is out
there to get you and that’s the opposite
of empathy actually you know if if you
if you and even at scale
some people will say look you can do
others at fifty people and a hundred
people but even at 900 people which is
close to where we are as a company we
still go by trusting people and you know
there will be a few bad apples but that
doesn’t mean that you have to change
everything for those few bad apples how
do you go about hiring for empathy if
you’re bringing new people on the team
growing a 900 you’re growing more how do
you hire for empathy I think you look
for bad apples and apples I mean people
who just care for themselves and use a
lot of I and I and I and you know
because the Divas are not empathetic to
others if you look for people who were
always about themselves and they could
be extremely talented people as well but
I don’t think divas will ever survive at
mechanics and and again it goes back to
where the thinking about are they always
about themselves or are they about the
team and the people around them and the
fact that in a war if the team is
rioting if I can’t mentor them if I can
coach them if I don’t protect
information if I share more good things
happen so we just starting to look out
for the red flags which is especially
about dealers and we don’t hire them
however good they are in terms of the
tangible talent because the intangible
emotional intelligence is probably more
important do you have a favorite
interview question when you’re asking
the people coming on
you know I typically don’t explicitly
ask something because then people have a
way of just artificially making it up
but there is always something to be said
about you know things like you know why
did they move from this company to that
and how many hops they’ve made to
something or what do they aspire to
become where if it’s more about titles
and this and that and definitely the red
flag to me actually and if it’s more
about providing delight to customer
and in working with the team and things
like that so and this is something that
most good companies look for but I try
to weave in proxy questions because
there’s no explicit question you can ask
in an interview that will not have a
contrived answer right so okay in fact
today you talk on employee vacation
what is your vacation and sick day
policy is one but as long as people log
it we don’t really count it you know I
think we do have a system of logging it
but it’s basically a relationship and
arrangement between the employee in the
manager and we don’t really have things
like all this blackout periods and you
can take any days off because it’s also
about succession planning like what if
this employee would not be there so you
can’t have blackout periods for people
despite how critical the business season
could be you just have to make sure that
if people want to go on a vacation to go
on a vacation and a lot of people
actually take four weeks off and and
happily the company is you know saying
you know what I think that’s actually a
pretty good number come back for the
next 11 months and work really hard to
make this company successful very
different policy than most companies are
there any other other policies that you
have that that you found that work for
you from a building a team and a culture
point of view that might be a little
different than what most companies do
well I think it’s about the long term
and about trust and about positivity I
think you know everything just in
circles around you know when I talk
about you know like say empathy for
partners you know sometimes we will go
and do things that will appear
disruptive to ourselves like we recently
did this om deal with with Dell where we
are sharing our software with them now
many companies would say why you’re
disrupting yourselves because we are our
own appliance where we use our software
on our clients
sell the whole thing as an appliance but
then we are helping Dell build their own
appliance using neat annexes soul which
is software and their body which is
their hardware they don’t look at things
as a zero-sum game because the market is
large then it’s upon us to actually
reconcile conflicts and you’re thinking
again from Dells point of view that look
you know and Dell is a very honest and
genuine company that we know often they
have this southern mentality about being
fair to other people as well and so we
were signing the deal and there was
enough naysayers who said look are you
sure are you really not gonna
cannibalize yourself and I said it’s
upon us to really go and push the
envelope on the market and the size of
the market because if this market is
really that small that signing our deal
with OEM you know an OEM deal with Dell
would actually cannibalize us and we’re
in a very small market and and the
owners of really making the market
continued to grow israeli upon us so
even in strategic things you know when
we talk about growing the market we’re
looking at you know what would Dell do
that really would screw us and we like
no I think we have to empathize with a
couple and Dell and think like they’re
not here to screw us they’re here to
actually make money
I mean there’s ways in which we can be
the arms dealer to them let’s go ahead
and do that as well I think not having a
zero-sum game mentality and I believe is
also about trust it’s also about trust
and confidence in ourselves that we have
to keep drawing the time and if you keep
drawing the pie it’s not a zero-sum game
a lot of company is going into
negotiations like that they’re they’re
trying to get you know the last dollar
try to negotiate as hard as they can to
get the best deal possible for them how
do you approach negotiation you you
purposely leave something on the table
for them because that’s the fair the
ride the empathetic thing to do yeah I
think works out long because you know
you evoke
I would say the right brain the
emotional intelligence and a lot of
people as opposed to left brain about
spreadsheets and numbers and dollars and
so on and in the long term it works out
so much better actually now there’s
always going to be you know a fringe set
of people like 2% of the people who are
extremely calculating and manipulative
in terms of negotiation so you can sense
that when they’re sitting across the
table who are those people but I mean
just doing this deal with Dell we
realized that there are also people who
believe in proposed so why not actually
try to invoke the positive side of
business dealers and leaders as opposed
to trying to alway just think about
yourself like you know how can I
maximize this for ourselves I mean their
deals that we go into where we don’t
think of margins you just think about
doing it right because we know that if
we do it right by them they have so much
money that the trust will build and they
will actually not have the lower time
but now is not the time to actually
haggle and try to squeeze the last
dollar in a first deal in the first
conversation right and when you go into
those negotiations with a company and
obviously work out great with Dell they
have the same approach to fairness and
and I love Dell – I work with them on a
couple projects when you go into a
negotiation with the company and you’re
not getting that vibe and you can tell
they’re trying to squeeze you for
everything and what do you do do you
just try to be at empathetic impossible
and see if you can make the negotiation
happen or do you say you know what I
don’t think we’re the right partner for
you would walk away because you don’t
think it’s a long-term fit how do you
approach dealing with somebody who
doesn’t share that same value of empathy
you know personally I when I say that
I’m somebody who’s driven by empathy I’m
also a relatively self-assured person
and I want the respect back
I respect are those brows one respect
back so at times when I don’t see the
respect from others I can’t deal with
those people so that’s just person I
mean obviously the company could always
behave differently because of X
EMC and things like that but I don’t
bend over backwards if I can’t see
fairness I’m good any deal has to be a
win-win if it’s win lose and I think
that they are being suffocated it’s a
great signal for me to say that you know
what it’s not the right thing for us to
do so I typically walk away from places
where I don’t see respect Don and I
think the company again is a separate
entity than me but I believe the company
will also do mostly things that are self
respectful as opposed to bending or
backwards because the world is too small
and I mean and we don’t have a whole lot
of time there’s always other
opportunities where you could go in and
have a win-win as opposed to a win-lose
proposition right um let’s switch the
kind of customers for a second I would
imagine that being empathetic toward
your customers leads to a lot more long
term deals long term relationships and
just the transactional you know in and
out and so you know a do you agree and B
how do you how do you train your
salespeople or is it finding the right
sales people who have that mentality
instead of hey we got to hit these
quarterly numbers I want to hit my sales
targets how do you manage that process
in your company yeah I think structural
and strategic decisions that we also
made early on to not go after the lowest
end of or the base of the pyramid which
is SMB customers you know small and
medium business customers with all lot
more transactional deals happening their
value for a lot of the SMB is cost its
price price price and nothing else and
we’ve stayed away strategically the
company from a lot of the low end of
this stuff the lowest end of the stock
you know but the moment you go higher up
in the pyramid value is about experience
it’s about and people are willing to pay
for experience and then it’s less about
price price price and more about
what can you do for me longer-term and I
think our ramps sales reps and sales
engineers they are naturally inclined to
think about you know either selling
value which is don’t sell technology
don’t sell a box sell an experience and
customers also buying experience as
opposed to a box or technology I think
you know I have this mantra I talk about
all the time you let guys sell an
experience not a box selling experience
not a technology and it comes I think
the four great uses everywhere that we
actually go and talk about it’s about
this is what we do today but this is
where we head into more and this is how
we can actually go after more things
tomorrow the other thing that is very
critical to the company’s success is is
what we called repeat business you know
its land and expand it like you know can
you how can he land in the next and from
there as opposed to trying to boil the
ocean with the first deal because many
companies try to have a hail-mary deal
oh I did this two million dollar thing
and took us two years to get there it’s
like could he have done 100k deal in
three months and then you could probably
have gained five million because of the
trust that you know good delivery and a
good supportive experience and a good
product experience will actually come to
have so that whole idea of start small
and then draw a relationship is actually
a pretty big part of the overall selling
motion in this company we we actually
look at whale hunters very skeptically
because we hunter the trying to maximize
a lot in a first deal instead I think
you know you’re looking for people who
are strategic who understand what value
selling means but at the same time are
willing to just take a small foot in the
door and then realize that over time can
really expand and again it goes back to
the notion of empathy because what
you’re really saying is I’m willing to
give a benefit of the doubt to the
customer that initially let
trust us because we are probably a
no-name and we don’t have an engagement
with them but why don’t I let them give
me a foot in the door and then over time
if we prove it if the product works and
the support experience is awesome
then these guys will come back with a
lot so I think what the sales motion is
actually driven like that actually what
is the what is the new tonic experience
so you talked about that what what do i
how do you explain that to a sales
person or new sales guy joining your
company to deliver that to the to the
customer
I think it’s it’s also driven my very
simple water it’s called simple you know
we used the word simple it’s very
clichéd word as well but simple is hard
you know to deliver something simple and
extremely difficult and anything that
you do whether it’s a food that we give
out or a product that we deploy or the
story that we tell the value that we
sell is all about you know we’ll make it
simple free and simple sells really well
and and simply them experience that a
lot of companies can talk about where
very few couldn’t deliver so I think we
raised the bar and the competition and
what simple really means and again
simple goes back to what if the customer
really want I mean speeds and feeds
which is probably let’s say improving
the Machine time anything machines go
faster is good but making humans go
faster is 10x more important because
what is the most precious resource in
people’s lives it’s their time it’s not
the Machine time because machine time
follows Moore’s law you know you can
always start to churn I mean Intel can
churn more faster processors and more
frequency and more horsepower and just
that are you looking at flash drives in
your laptops and your phones everything
gets faster on the machine side what
doesn’t improve is 24 hours in a day
that’s all we have
squeeze more and more in there so I
think we really go and sell human
experience around simplicity because
what we’re really selling it will take
1/10 the time and to save you a lot of
time to go and probably you spend with
your family and this and that
I mean infrastructure in general IT is
still a very complicated beast and
behind closed doors you know what
happens when in data centers and
infrastructure and so on is still very
complicated but really time a simplified
order that again going back to what
exactly is missing in the life of an
administrator question of enmity and
most of what we see is there they have a
very complicated life and they would
love to actually get some peace of mind
to go home and have a vacation or spend
time have you ever had a situation maybe
there’s a story you can tell where it
looked like a great opportunity a great
deal a great way to grow the business
but but it was kind of against the
empathy value that you staying for if it
was a partner dealing with or a new
potential hire or customer and it just
you know it didn’t work out and how do
you handle that situation which is so
against empathy but it looks like a
great opportunity what do you do in that
situation you know initially I’ve done
this in the past as well
I’ve actually parted ways with people
that I initially would give the benefit
of the doubt to because empathy is
driven by one thing that everybody has a
good sight then there’s an angel in
everybody and you’re trying to invoke
that that’s all you’re trying to do and
you’re like you know what because all of
us have two sides means there’s a
teaming there’s an angel and most good
people actually control the demon and
I’ve just been optimistic that look if
people appear a little bit selfish or
they’re too merciful Deever you probably
will give them the benefit of the doubt
that it can be involved the good side
can be more
and you you have to be patient now
eventually absolutely it’s not in the
world so you have to pull the plug but I
think mine I would say first reaction is
always to give them the benefit of the
doubt
maybe circumstances are not right
because of which they have appeared
negative to other people but start
positive I mean look I’m an entrepreneur
so I’m an incorrigible optimist first
thing and even with people will appear
extremely hawkish I actually try to
think that look there is a way to make
this thing work if he gave him the right
circumstances if we give them the
ability to flourish then good things can
actually happen but I mean many a time
you are wrong but you still give it
enough time you have to be patient with
such people as well it is is empathy
aspirational for you in that do you see
yourself as a leader in this is the way
business should be done and in almost
building a model company for other
entrepreneurs entrepreneurs who are
watching who are looking to start their
own business you see yourself as this is
a model business to follow this is a
woman and grace as well and and be super
successful off of it trying to kind of
spread empathy to the world and not just
your business yeah I think I don’t know
if I actually fully understood the
question because it you’re cutting in
and out but I think it’s it’s it’s a
word that can drive most behavior in an
enterprise you know I think most
behavior any venture can be driven by
entity actually okay yeah so I guess the
second part of that question is do you
see that as are you trying to build a
model company that other people can look
up to you know entrepreneurs might look
up to Microsoft that wouldn’t be the
next Microsoft do you see yourself as
been hey entreprise want to look up to
you and I want to be the next Nutanix
and I want to build a company that’s
around empathy as well and I want to
help spread empathy to the world do you
see yourself as kind of a pioneer trying
to make the world a better place through
empathy and and not just kind of your
team and your customs but being a force
for good and the
yeah by the way I think you breaking in
and out a little bit Devon I don’t know
maybe it’s a network in my side but I I
think definitely believe that empathy
also invokes you know corporate social
responsibility and the sense of giving
back to the society and things like that
I you know the company did not be the
best at it but we are trying I mean
recently we tried this web-scale wish
where we went and did a makeover of a
non-profit organizations infrastructure
and greatest entrance so I think you can
do more of it but overall I believe that
if this company is basically being
looked upon as a company made out of two
words you know empathy and simple then I
think we’ve done a pretty good job love
us building a good brand you know just
being respect of your time maybe last
question advice that you would have for
young entrepreneurs or new entrepreneurs
are entrepreneurs are trying to get you
know to your level
what kind of parting words would you
give them to encourage them on their
path and I think the most important one
is optimized for the long term and don’t
be too skeptical about the world I think
you know if they were to think of these
two things then they’ll actually be more
positive in their dealings and that
invokes positivity from the other side
as well and you know most of the time
there’s a lot more money to go around so
trying to squeeze everything early on is
probably not the best of you know way of
really building a business eleven heroes
thank you so much for spending some time
today for those of you watching you can
check out his website at
www.extracareanimalhospital.net
Google Plus hangout today I’m really
excited I have a special guest with me
on the call with me
Dheeraj Pandey from a company called new
tonics and why I’m excited is you know
this business has gone from zero startup
in 2009 to now being valued at two
billion dollars they provide all the
technology and back-end and servers and
infrastructure for for huge companies
like eBay and Honda and Toyota and what
really excites me is the founder Dee Raj
who I have with me today started the
business off of one word and his one
word is empathy and we’ve had a few
entrepreneurs on talking about their one
words how they applied it to the
business and when I read about Dheeraj
and and his empathy Wars I gotta get him
on we’ve got to get the interview and
hopefully you can share how that company
got started where empathy plays in and
for those of you who are watching I
think you know fill in your own
businesses or in that process how you
might be able to find your word and
apply to your company so Dheeraj welcome
to the show thank you thank you for the
opportunity so what does empathy mean to
you it’s a very simple and very
beautiful world to meet about focus and
focus on them as opposed to yourself but
and when I say them I mean employees and
customers and partners so if you focus
on their interests good things happen to
you as well and and most people in the
world actually operate that way I mean
obviously there’s always a few guys who
are on the fringes and you can be burned
if you try to focus on their interest
but most things in the world actually if
you if you try to do it for them and do
it right by them good things happen to
you
that’s what empathy means to us and and
this company is very focused on
employees and customers trying to do it
right by them
I love it is it how did you discover
empathy as being the right word is this
something that’s always been with you is
there a you know story from your child
how did you come across this and saying
I’m gonna build a business around
empathy you know probably has been there
from very early days where maybe I was
and somebody who was a little bit
introverted early on and looked at what
others expect of me and over time that
really became what are others thinking
and then you’re like so what makes them
happy and then eventually splat well
we’ll do a business what makes customers
really happy and why do employers stick
around and you really start thinking
about others which I think has been
there with me from very early on it
isn’t something from your parents that
instilled in you or they’re really
starting like my father was probably
always like this always thinking about
others and politeness and sharing and
all that stuff so I think my father is
there I’m curious is there a a specific
story you remember or something that
your father always used to tell you that
you still remember – today I think you
know India was a very caste system
reduce aasaiya tea and I grew up in
India and he was always thinking about
the have-nots all the time you know you
know look I think we have some sort of
like a very rich but came from a lower
middle class family but even with what
we had he was always thinking about the
have-nots and especially people from the
lower caste and so on and I think the
feudal society the I mean there was a
lot of child labor and all that stuff
that we saw and I think he was very I
would say respectful of the lower castes
in the country and always respectful at
with it folks were poor and so on and
that kind of reflected at me that he was
very polite and we were always giving to
the beggars and this and that so I think
over time that that
expect for the have not really became
more about others and to think about
others and so on and my mom also was
also very giving to others in with
whatever little we had so I think some
of that just got in green over time you
think about others and and in the
process you will feel happy as well so
this is not being selfless it’s just
another way of being selfish it’s like
you know you take care of others and you
probably feel happy about it I love it I
love it
now you have a co-founder you have
investors you know you have employees
when you were starting this up when and
you said you know I want to build this
business with empathy being our main
core value did people did you get people
who thought you are not people who hated
on it that everybody just loved it right
out of the gate how did you handle that
you know you never make it very explicit
because if you make it too explicit then
it starts being artificial it’s in the
day to day things that you do that
matter and you don’t even probably put a
moniker like empathy for a lot of those
things I mean now that I’m looking back
probably I put a moniker like empathy
but many a time it’s just natural it’s
just it’s like even the product that we
build always thinking about so what is
the customer really want and what makes
it really simple for them and what gives
them the peace of mind and and in these
cases I mean you’d say this is just
natural product management or product
definition and so on but I think if you
peel the onion a little bit it’s about
saying you know what did you empathize
with the customer rather than trying to
geek out and just write a bunch of code
or build a bunch of features that were
just a bunch of features you really
really think through from the eyes of
the customer and so on so I never really
put a moniker to it most of the time
actually I just don’t behave as if it’s
part of the normal day-to-day company
building and you know being fair with
employees and partners and so on I know
you
do a lot for your employees as well I
know you do 100% of the employees health
costs 20% of dependents there was 10,000
for family for unexpected medical
thoughts and so how is that empathy for
you in terms of dealing with employees I
think it begins with tangibles like you
know can you take care of their benefits
without there having to worry about it
because if somebody did this to me I’d
be really happy you know this was the
time when Obamacare a lot of this health
care stuff was looking like a liability
to the employers and we said you know
what I think we can beam count a lot but
what if we actually really did it right
by the employee then they’ll do a whole
lot more for the company where health
care becomes a non-issue benefits become
a non-issue again if we have trust and
are good people and most of our people
actually are trustworthy in fact all of
them I hope trustworthy then wide beam
count vacations why can’t we just have
them kind of talk to the manager and say
you know I really need something and
when they come back they actually give
that more to the company in terms of
whatever it means you know burning the
midnight oil and sticking by the
Christmas holidays or whatever I think
most people actually do that it’s a it’s
it’s the it’s the best quid pro quo that
actually works you know you know same
thing with you know thinking about
career advancement and and their
education and enablement and things like
that we are we’re always thinking what’s
fair for the employees first because
many times when you think like a
corporation you’re always thinking that
they are at odds with you because they
are the employee and you the employer
and and I think the many people in the
world are very skeptical about you know
what if you don’t take care of your
interest and most of the world is out
there to get you and that’s the opposite
of empathy actually you know if if you
if you and even at scale
some people will say look you can do
others at fifty people and a hundred
people but even at 900 people which is
close to where we are as a company we
still go by trusting people and you know
there will be a few bad apples but that
doesn’t mean that you have to change
everything for those few bad apples how
do you go about hiring for empathy if
you’re bringing new people on the team
growing a 900 you’re growing more how do
you hire for empathy I think you look
for bad apples and apples I mean people
who just care for themselves and use a
lot of I and I and I and you know
because the Divas are not empathetic to
others if you look for people who were
always about themselves and they could
be extremely talented people as well but
I don’t think divas will ever survive at
mechanics and and again it goes back to
where the thinking about are they always
about themselves or are they about the
team and the people around them and the
fact that in a war if the team is
rioting if I can’t mentor them if I can
coach them if I don’t protect
information if I share more good things
happen so we just starting to look out
for the red flags which is especially
about dealers and we don’t hire them
however good they are in terms of the
tangible talent because the intangible
emotional intelligence is probably more
important do you have a favorite
interview question when you’re asking
the people coming on
you know I typically don’t explicitly
ask something because then people have a
way of just artificially making it up
but there is always something to be said
about you know things like you know why
did they move from this company to that
and how many hops they’ve made to
something or what do they aspire to
become where if it’s more about titles
and this and that and definitely the red
flag to me actually and if it’s more
about providing delight to customer
and in working with the team and things
like that so and this is something that
most good companies look for but I try
to weave in proxy questions because
there’s no explicit question you can ask
in an interview that will not have a
contrived answer right so okay in fact
today you talk on employee vacation
what is your vacation and sick day
policy is one but as long as people log
it we don’t really count it you know I
think we do have a system of logging it
but it’s basically a relationship and
arrangement between the employee in the
manager and we don’t really have things
like all this blackout periods and you
can take any days off because it’s also
about succession planning like what if
this employee would not be there so you
can’t have blackout periods for people
despite how critical the business season
could be you just have to make sure that
if people want to go on a vacation to go
on a vacation and a lot of people
actually take four weeks off and and
happily the company is you know saying
you know what I think that’s actually a
pretty good number come back for the
next 11 months and work really hard to
make this company successful very
different policy than most companies are
there any other other policies that you
have that that you found that work for
you from a building a team and a culture
point of view that might be a little
different than what most companies do
well I think it’s about the long term
and about trust and about positivity I
think you know everything just in
circles around you know when I talk
about you know like say empathy for
partners you know sometimes we will go
and do things that will appear
disruptive to ourselves like we recently
did this om deal with with Dell where we
are sharing our software with them now
many companies would say why you’re
disrupting yourselves because we are our
own appliance where we use our software
on our clients
sell the whole thing as an appliance but
then we are helping Dell build their own
appliance using neat annexes soul which
is software and their body which is
their hardware they don’t look at things
as a zero-sum game because the market is
large then it’s upon us to actually
reconcile conflicts and you’re thinking
again from Dells point of view that look
you know and Dell is a very honest and
genuine company that we know often they
have this southern mentality about being
fair to other people as well and so we
were signing the deal and there was
enough naysayers who said look are you
sure are you really not gonna
cannibalize yourself and I said it’s
upon us to really go and push the
envelope on the market and the size of
the market because if this market is
really that small that signing our deal
with OEM you know an OEM deal with Dell
would actually cannibalize us and we’re
in a very small market and and the
owners of really making the market
continued to grow israeli upon us so
even in strategic things you know when
we talk about growing the market we’re
looking at you know what would Dell do
that really would screw us and we like
no I think we have to empathize with a
couple and Dell and think like they’re
not here to screw us they’re here to
actually make money
I mean there’s ways in which we can be
the arms dealer to them let’s go ahead
and do that as well I think not having a
zero-sum game mentality and I believe is
also about trust it’s also about trust
and confidence in ourselves that we have
to keep drawing the time and if you keep
drawing the pie it’s not a zero-sum game
a lot of company is going into
negotiations like that they’re they’re
trying to get you know the last dollar
try to negotiate as hard as they can to
get the best deal possible for them how
do you approach negotiation you you
purposely leave something on the table
for them because that’s the fair the
ride the empathetic thing to do yeah I
think works out long because you know
you evoke
I would say the right brain the
emotional intelligence and a lot of
people as opposed to left brain about
spreadsheets and numbers and dollars and
so on and in the long term it works out
so much better actually now there’s
always going to be you know a fringe set
of people like 2% of the people who are
extremely calculating and manipulative
in terms of negotiation so you can sense
that when they’re sitting across the
table who are those people but I mean
just doing this deal with Dell we
realized that there are also people who
believe in proposed so why not actually
try to invoke the positive side of
business dealers and leaders as opposed
to trying to alway just think about
yourself like you know how can I
maximize this for ourselves I mean their
deals that we go into where we don’t
think of margins you just think about
doing it right because we know that if
we do it right by them they have so much
money that the trust will build and they
will actually not have the lower time
but now is not the time to actually
haggle and try to squeeze the last
dollar in a first deal in the first
conversation right and when you go into
those negotiations with a company and
obviously work out great with Dell they
have the same approach to fairness and
and I love Dell – I work with them on a
couple projects when you go into a
negotiation with the company and you’re
not getting that vibe and you can tell
they’re trying to squeeze you for
everything and what do you do do you
just try to be at empathetic impossible
and see if you can make the negotiation
happen or do you say you know what I
don’t think we’re the right partner for
you would walk away because you don’t
think it’s a long-term fit how do you
approach dealing with somebody who
doesn’t share that same value of empathy
you know personally I when I say that
I’m somebody who’s driven by empathy I’m
also a relatively self-assured person
and I want the respect back
I respect are those brows one respect
back so at times when I don’t see the
respect from others I can’t deal with
those people so that’s just person I
mean obviously the company could always
behave differently because of X
EMC and things like that but I don’t
bend over backwards if I can’t see
fairness I’m good any deal has to be a
win-win if it’s win lose and I think
that they are being suffocated it’s a
great signal for me to say that you know
what it’s not the right thing for us to
do so I typically walk away from places
where I don’t see respect Don and I
think the company again is a separate
entity than me but I believe the company
will also do mostly things that are self
respectful as opposed to bending or
backwards because the world is too small
and I mean and we don’t have a whole lot
of time there’s always other
opportunities where you could go in and
have a win-win as opposed to a win-lose
proposition right um let’s switch the
kind of customers for a second I would
imagine that being empathetic toward
your customers leads to a lot more long
term deals long term relationships and
just the transactional you know in and
out and so you know a do you agree and B
how do you how do you train your
salespeople or is it finding the right
sales people who have that mentality
instead of hey we got to hit these
quarterly numbers I want to hit my sales
targets how do you manage that process
in your company yeah I think structural
and strategic decisions that we also
made early on to not go after the lowest
end of or the base of the pyramid which
is SMB customers you know small and
medium business customers with all lot
more transactional deals happening their
value for a lot of the SMB is cost its
price price price and nothing else and
we’ve stayed away strategically the
company from a lot of the low end of
this stuff the lowest end of the stock
you know but the moment you go higher up
in the pyramid value is about experience
it’s about and people are willing to pay
for experience and then it’s less about
price price price and more about
what can you do for me longer-term and I
think our ramps sales reps and sales
engineers they are naturally inclined to
think about you know either selling
value which is don’t sell technology
don’t sell a box sell an experience and
customers also buying experience as
opposed to a box or technology I think
you know I have this mantra I talk about
all the time you let guys sell an
experience not a box selling experience
not a technology and it comes I think
the four great uses everywhere that we
actually go and talk about it’s about
this is what we do today but this is
where we head into more and this is how
we can actually go after more things
tomorrow the other thing that is very
critical to the company’s success is is
what we called repeat business you know
its land and expand it like you know can
you how can he land in the next and from
there as opposed to trying to boil the
ocean with the first deal because many
companies try to have a hail-mary deal
oh I did this two million dollar thing
and took us two years to get there it’s
like could he have done 100k deal in
three months and then you could probably
have gained five million because of the
trust that you know good delivery and a
good supportive experience and a good
product experience will actually come to
have so that whole idea of start small
and then draw a relationship is actually
a pretty big part of the overall selling
motion in this company we we actually
look at whale hunters very skeptically
because we hunter the trying to maximize
a lot in a first deal instead I think
you know you’re looking for people who
are strategic who understand what value
selling means but at the same time are
willing to just take a small foot in the
door and then realize that over time can
really expand and again it goes back to
the notion of empathy because what
you’re really saying is I’m willing to
give a benefit of the doubt to the
customer that initially let
trust us because we are probably a
no-name and we don’t have an engagement
with them but why don’t I let them give
me a foot in the door and then over time
if we prove it if the product works and
the support experience is awesome
then these guys will come back with a
lot so I think what the sales motion is
actually driven like that actually what
is the what is the new tonic experience
so you talked about that what what do i
how do you explain that to a sales
person or new sales guy joining your
company to deliver that to the to the
customer
I think it’s it’s also driven my very
simple water it’s called simple you know
we used the word simple it’s very
clichéd word as well but simple is hard
you know to deliver something simple and
extremely difficult and anything that
you do whether it’s a food that we give
out or a product that we deploy or the
story that we tell the value that we
sell is all about you know we’ll make it
simple free and simple sells really well
and and simply them experience that a
lot of companies can talk about where
very few couldn’t deliver so I think we
raised the bar and the competition and
what simple really means and again
simple goes back to what if the customer
really want I mean speeds and feeds
which is probably let’s say improving
the Machine time anything machines go
faster is good but making humans go
faster is 10x more important because
what is the most precious resource in
people’s lives it’s their time it’s not
the Machine time because machine time
follows Moore’s law you know you can
always start to churn I mean Intel can
churn more faster processors and more
frequency and more horsepower and just
that are you looking at flash drives in
your laptops and your phones everything
gets faster on the machine side what
doesn’t improve is 24 hours in a day
that’s all we have
squeeze more and more in there so I
think we really go and sell human
experience around simplicity because
what we’re really selling it will take
1/10 the time and to save you a lot of
time to go and probably you spend with
your family and this and that
I mean infrastructure in general IT is
still a very complicated beast and
behind closed doors you know what
happens when in data centers and
infrastructure and so on is still very
complicated but really time a simplified
order that again going back to what
exactly is missing in the life of an
administrator question of enmity and
most of what we see is there they have a
very complicated life and they would
love to actually get some peace of mind
to go home and have a vacation or spend
time have you ever had a situation maybe
there’s a story you can tell where it
looked like a great opportunity a great
deal a great way to grow the business
but but it was kind of against the
empathy value that you staying for if it
was a partner dealing with or a new
potential hire or customer and it just
you know it didn’t work out and how do
you handle that situation which is so
against empathy but it looks like a
great opportunity what do you do in that
situation you know initially I’ve done
this in the past as well
I’ve actually parted ways with people
that I initially would give the benefit
of the doubt to because empathy is
driven by one thing that everybody has a
good sight then there’s an angel in
everybody and you’re trying to invoke
that that’s all you’re trying to do and
you’re like you know what because all of
us have two sides means there’s a
teaming there’s an angel and most good
people actually control the demon and
I’ve just been optimistic that look if
people appear a little bit selfish or
they’re too merciful Deever you probably
will give them the benefit of the doubt
that it can be involved the good side
can be more
and you you have to be patient now
eventually absolutely it’s not in the
world so you have to pull the plug but I
think mine I would say first reaction is
always to give them the benefit of the
doubt
maybe circumstances are not right
because of which they have appeared
negative to other people but start
positive I mean look I’m an entrepreneur
so I’m an incorrigible optimist first
thing and even with people will appear
extremely hawkish I actually try to
think that look there is a way to make
this thing work if he gave him the right
circumstances if we give them the
ability to flourish then good things can
actually happen but I mean many a time
you are wrong but you still give it
enough time you have to be patient with
such people as well it is is empathy
aspirational for you in that do you see
yourself as a leader in this is the way
business should be done and in almost
building a model company for other
entrepreneurs entrepreneurs who are
watching who are looking to start their
own business you see yourself as this is
a model business to follow this is a
woman and grace as well and and be super
successful off of it trying to kind of
spread empathy to the world and not just
your business yeah I think I don’t know
if I actually fully understood the
question because it you’re cutting in
and out but I think it’s it’s it’s a
word that can drive most behavior in an
enterprise you know I think most
behavior any venture can be driven by
entity actually okay yeah so I guess the
second part of that question is do you
see that as are you trying to build a
model company that other people can look
up to you know entrepreneurs might look
up to Microsoft that wouldn’t be the
next Microsoft do you see yourself as
been hey entreprise want to look up to
you and I want to be the next Nutanix
and I want to build a company that’s
around empathy as well and I want to
help spread empathy to the world do you
see yourself as kind of a pioneer trying
to make the world a better place through
empathy and and not just kind of your
team and your customs but being a force
for good and the
yeah by the way I think you breaking in
and out a little bit Devon I don’t know
maybe it’s a network in my side but I I
think definitely believe that empathy
also invokes you know corporate social
responsibility and the sense of giving
back to the society and things like that
I you know the company did not be the
best at it but we are trying I mean
recently we tried this web-scale wish
where we went and did a makeover of a
non-profit organizations infrastructure
and greatest entrance so I think you can
do more of it but overall I believe that
if this company is basically being
looked upon as a company made out of two
words you know empathy and simple then I
think we’ve done a pretty good job love
us building a good brand you know just
being respect of your time maybe last
question advice that you would have for
young entrepreneurs or new entrepreneurs
are entrepreneurs are trying to get you
know to your level
what kind of parting words would you
give them to encourage them on their
path and I think the most important one
is optimized for the long term and don’t
be too skeptical about the world I think
you know if they were to think of these
two things then they’ll actually be more
positive in their dealings and that
invokes positivity from the other side
as well and you know most of the time
there’s a lot more money to go around so
trying to squeeze everything early on is
probably not the best of you know way of
really building a business eleven heroes
thank you so much for spending some time
today for those of you watching you can
check out his website at
www.extracareanimalhospital.net
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