I’m Patrick made a video host of value
taming and today we have a very special
guest with us the author of the infamous
book 48 laws of power Robert Greene
thank you for joining us today my
pleasure Patrick thank you for having us
it took a while but I’m glad I’m finally
here it took us what 12 years we have we
had a good time at Raffi’s place yes
very much
and it was a good conversation that was
probably pre-interview you know the
stuff we talked about hopefully we’re
going to change the world together you
and I somebody should have recorded
somebody should have recorded what we
talked about but you know it’s
interesting it was 2003 mm-hmm Robert I
had a friend comes up to me and his name
is Ben and he says Patrick there is this
book you gotta read but it’s a secret
you can’t tell everybody because it’s a
very powerful book but if I tell you
about it
you can’t recommend it to anybody else I
said what’s the name of this book he
sneaks away it goes to the back of his
car says the book is called 48 laws of
power but I promise me you’re not gonna
recommend it anybody well he’s
recommending it he’s recommending it to
me and I started reading and I said what
an incredible book you know with 40 laws
of power and then from there you know
obviously 33 strategies of war art of
seduction mastery 50th law last year or
book club we read your mastery was about
a thousand people that read the book
together phenomenal book but let’s get
right into it so here’s what I like to
do I like to first a you know get to
know who Robert Greene was before how
the inspiration got started there’s some
general questions I was asked through
social media and I have some specific
questions for you from the book and it
will go from there so Robert Green who
was Robert Green in high school who most
bit of a lost kid had long hair you know
and I was a bit of a weirdo didn’t fit
in you know I went to a kind of a surfer
school Palisades high a lot of blond
kids sir not a very intellectual
environment and I loved books in
and my by then even then my head was in
the clouds so I just didn’t fit in but I
have you know some good friends I had
pretty close family and I to be honest
with you I got into drugs which
continued on in college so a little bit
of high school sort of a cloud I got
straight A’s never got a B my whole life
and then the drugs helped you get
straight angel I don’t know how I did it
I don’t know how I did it particularly
in college but I think knowing that I
had a love of knowledge kept me alive
kept me straight you know I just wanted
to read about everything I don’t know
what if I understood what I was reading
but I just loved reading about history
about war about supporting you like
reading about his I know my I tell my
mom remembers this story when I was 13
12 maybe I had a list of books that I
wanted to order from this sort of this
company that shipped books out for young
readers and I had like 20 books that I
kicked off half of them were about wars
and battles I just was so I loved
reading about warfare when I was a kid
so I was a bit of a lost kid I don’t
know if you saw a photograph of me back
then you wouldn’t really recognize me
can we actually find it on him like oh
my wife has it as a picture in her
office of me was long hair whenever
people come over she says look this is
what Robert looked like and I oh whoa
let me ask it what was it look like
Peter Frampton I’m really curious to see
it because you look like a Hollywood
actor so I’d be curious in a way you
looked at High School but but let me ask
you was there like was it your father
your mother was it an uncle was it
somebody that inspired you’d want to
read history was just in you period
it’s something I talk about in mastery
mm-hmm
I have a chapter the most important
chapter in the book is about your life’s
task discovering what it is that you
were meant to do in life which i think
is the most important thing for anybody
in anybody’s life and I go in the book I
recount all of these famous people
and the moment when they were three four
or five years old and they discovered
what it is that they love like Einstein
with the compass or Steve Jobs passing
by an electronics store and the point in
the book is there’s no real rational
explanation why people are attracted to
something I can’t give you a rational
reason why I was drawn to books
literature my father isn’t like that he
was a businessman he was sold chemical
supplies my mother was a housewife you
know they loved learning but neither of
them were readers or intellectuals or
anything I can’t explain it to you
there’s no rational reason it’s just
something I was drawn to it there was
something within me that was just drawn
to history I know it was like history I
just fascinated by anything in any
culture any period and in literature so
there’s no there’s nothing like I can’t
say why so so so with that because you
talk about this also in mastery I’m
curious if you can maybe allude to a
little bit more is do you think certain
people who are you know end up doing
something incredibly great you know I’m
talking about something that’s out of
the ordinary I mean you didn’t write a
book that sold 50,000 copies it sold
millions of copies worldwide
all of them are international
bestsellers do you think somebody who
does incredibly great things in their
lives
is it something they’re born with or is
it events that affects them
is it an influence is it an inspiration
you know how you say leaders are born or
leaders are built what’s your opinion
about that well like anything in life
it’s a combination of things there’s no
simple little formula so first of all
genetics definitely play a role and I
talked about it in mastery so why am i
attracted to books why is Tiger Woods
drawn at the age of 12 months or 14
months
attracted to golf etc etc there’s a
genetic reason for that there’s
something about the way your brain is
wired there’s a great book I think it’s
Howard Gardner called the five frames of
mind I believe I don’t know I’m quoting
it correctly there are five forms of
human intelligence the kinetic the
mathematical the etc etc each person
tends to have a dominant form of
intelligence that they’re that they’re
good at why its genetic
you’re born that way it’s not
necessarily anything that comes from
your parents and could come from way
back in your in your past that’s an
important component and then the key in
life is being aware of what makes you
different of what you’re naturally drawn
to of these what I call these I forget
my word in the in the book easy
inclinations these primal inclinations
but then of course experience is equally
important of your teachers your parents
the environment that you live in of the
people that you know as you’re growing
up have a huge impact on you you throw
all of that together and that sort of
makes who you are if I hadn’t met Joe
stell firs when I was 35 years old the
man who ended up packaging the 48 laws
of power I could have all the knowledge
and brilliant certain wisdom about power
but I would have never written the book
because I met him so luck you had no
plans of reading writing a book at all
not really no so luck enters into the
picture you know there’s there’s a
element of luck you don’t choose your
parents you don’t choose that you were
born in Iran all these other things come
together and you know so obviously
initiative and effort and something
inside of you and willpower is the most
important thing your level of
persistence not anything intellectual
but then there’s an element of luck and
blind chance and genetics that come in
and play an important role so so the
part about the desire the willpower can
a generation be also affected by that by
standard of a government or what’s being
the media can all of that also have an
effect on that the firepower in the
belly yes most definitely you know
America in the 19th century when you
were growing up you the myth of Yankee
ingenuity the whole work ethic it was a
communal thing people believed that
through hard work that’s what made you
come to America and you know young
people were raised with that I do
believe though that some people are born
with a higher level of ambition than
other people you think the ambition is
really yeah there’s statistics that show
in a group of a hundred people five will
be leaders they show there’s a studies
that show the 5% rule that essentially
it’s my percent of people that are
naturally born leaders it doesn’t mean
the 90 at 5% are all just followers
there’s other places other roles for
people but there are people that have
more ambition more Drive more hunger
some of that is comes from just
something genetic and some of it comes
from the culture definitely do you think
when you said you know in America how it
was where you came here migrants came
you if you work hard you can have the
life that you want to have it you can
have everything if you’re a hardworking
person do you think that maybe the
millennial or the Gen Y subscribes to
that philosophy as well today no they
don’t no I think a lot of that is lost I
mean I for my new book and for all of my
books I made a lot of history and if you
look at any great culture or Empire
there is inevitably a period of decline
i per have a student of ancient Rome
Rome started declining at a point more
or less actually before Julius Caesar
too much money too much success a
generation is born living in luxury
they’re expecting to have everything
sort of given to them and in a period of
a hundred years in Rome just basically
falls apart you can look at that in the
Spanish Empire you can see about England
it’s probably happening to America as
well it’s a sort of a cycle and young
people too
they don’t grow up with the same kind of
hunger and drive that I know my father
whose family were immigrants of
second-generation immigrants that they
had but when I go to a country like in
my travels to Russia or India I see
people there who are really really
hungry for a middle class upper middle
class lifestyle and they are extremely
driven to go to school and to learn and
better themselves so I think America is
there there’s some problems up ahead and
a lot of it is why I wrote mastery I
wanted to show you here’s a blueprint
this is a formula it’s not rock it’s not
magic it’s real since the beginning of
time since we human beings have been
what we are this is the sort of the path
that people have followed to become
absolutely spectacularly brilliant at
their field mathematics sports whatever
it is it’s a path here it is because so
many people nowadays believe it is just
about luck or who if you are able to go
to Harvard or if your parents can’t
afford to send you to a good school and
you’re screwed or you have to be born a
Michael Jordan no none of this is true
it’s all about what you do with your own
natural talent interesting so going back
to what you said with hunger do you what
do you think is the cause we’re a
generation maybe loses the hunger like
you said the hunger is not the same said
your father came here immigrant you know
working building something the work
ethic what’s caused this generation to
lose the hunger you know if I had the
answer to that Patrick idea Billy it’s
complex I don’t like simplifying things
it’s one of my pet peeves I don’t like
simple pet answers to stuff and you know
some of it is to me comes from one very
fundamental belief do you believe that
through your own effort through
education through consciousness through
thinking through reflecting you can
improve yourself do you fundamentally
deep down in Syrian
right in the center of your gut do you
believe that because some people will
say yeah I do but they don’t really
believe it they think inside that it’s
luck its circumstances it’s you know who
what school you went to
etc and then whether you can you know
maybe there’s a drug that’ll make me
feel good so I don’t get depressed
people who believe in crutches they
don’t think that it comes from somewhere
inside I think you can make a division
there and there do you really in your
gut believe that through your own
efforts no matter what happens to you
you can through learning etc improve
yourself and we’ve lost that a lot of
people have lost that deep deep sense of
connection to it not in a verbal way
like I’m telling you you feel it so so
that part here can end a book in 48 laws
you talk about what mate Alexander’s
special is one two people one of them
was his mother and wonder was Aristotle
right where his mother had this
unwavering belief and the fact that this
guy’s going to some special with his
life right and then he has Aristotle
that taught him how to control your
emotions
how to stay stable how to make better
decisions rhetoric all that stuff that
is teaching do you think for me to have
that hunger that you’re saying it’s lost
you got to have that deep down hunger in
your belly on your fire do you think
somebody needs to sell that to me do you
think somebody needs to impose that
belief in me from the top maybe it’s the
country that from they were the greatest
country in world and the United States
of America you can do whatever you want
to do you can go out and do you think
that message of selling is the reason
why the generation of Americans that
were so optimistic that anything was
possible and maybe we’re not selling
that concept no more or do you think
it’s just a one-man show where the
Millennials are not really that driven
anymore I know you has a question I know
well this is a lot easier than a lunch
question what I have um well you know
you can’t sell it it’s like a culture
that that evolves where people come to
America in the 19th century it’s a hard
life it’s a pioneer life it’s farming
it’s making a living in a harsh
environment they’re still it Native
Americans
they’re out there to kill you et cetera
and you had to work like a devil to get
anything that you wanted so there’s not
like some salesman out there a Dale
Carnegie saying look here’s the America
you it was just natural they came up
through so you don’t think many Iranians
sold you don’t think Kennedy sold us on
how great we are it did if those things
matter those things are very important
but there has to be it’s like let’s say
I’m a farmer I want to plant seeds so
trees grow if I start throwing them into
sand nothing’s gonna get her owner well
it has to be a fertile soil and right
now there’s not a fertile soil so I
always talk about Kennedy thou to me was
the last real president that did what I
think a president should do he created a
myth the myth of the new frontier we
Americans were going to go back to our
pioneer spirit it’s going to be centered
around the race towards moon technology
etc and we’re going to be what our
ancestors were very powerful and and
we’re still living off the things that
Kennedy was talking about early on about
the new frontier those things matter and
Reagan what Reagan said and Clinton etc
these things are very important but
there has to be a culture there that’s
receptive there has to be an ethos that
comes from below that’s what you’re born
with it your parents instill in you if
that’s not there no amount of selling is
going to do it so from your parents
ethos from your parents so parents doing
the job what Alexander’s mother did to
inject that belief and then could play
well play Alexander’s father Philip of
Macedonia if there had been a Philip of
Macedonia or his mother would have just
been this insane element mores
of course of course you know but there
was that there was that part about your
first laws never outshine your master
there was an element she wanted that as
well I mean you know the whole story on
how that worked out but interesting then
someone asked you this let me ask you
since we’re all we have completely
digress from general questions we’ve
gotten right into it because you know
I’m all about that graph you think you
know so we’re gonna get into it but you
know here’s a question for you okay so
what caused America to do very
I mean obviously free-market capitalism
we I live in Iran so Iran went from
imperialism to dictatorship to what
happened with the Revolution and you saw
when Russia and some of these countries
try to subscribe to communism with you
know the inspiration of the book being
Communist Manifesto in America said
we’re going to do free market capitalism
you come here you work you can build a
good life for yourself if you willin to
roll up your sleeves and get to work you
can have the opportunity building your
American dream so all these immigrants
from all over the world I got to go to
America I got to go to America right and
we got 45 million immigrants in America
number two is Russia with 11 million do
you think the role and again this is not
going to be a yes or no I’m just curious
what you say about this the role of free
market capitalism is to people play a
very big role one is the individual who
maybe sells the dream comes out with the
concept create something and then it’s
the you know collective effort right so
we can’t go out there and just say hey
you know maybe during one error of a
president it’s all about the
individualist you know take care of the
rich and in another generation it’s only
about collective how do you think we
balance those two out as a country where
it’s not leaning just towards one side
or the other side well I mean America
has always been a individualist culture
um and that’s its strength and you have
to play to your strengths we’re not
really ever been a collectivist
mentality and you go drink so no
absolutely never you go to any other
country in the world that’s the first
thing that they talk about sometimes you
need an outsider to sort of tell you who
you are everywhere you go America is a
country of individuals it’s an
individual spirit particularly in Europe
when you contrast country like Spain or
Germany or England with the United
States that’s what we’re known for is
that a bad thing war is oh no it’s a
great thing it’s a great thing and there
of course every country has great
individuals in an individual short
spirit so these are generalizations but
in general I believe that that sort of
ethos
I’m going to sort of develop my natural
genius Who I am and I’m going to create
something great whether it’s a business
or you know books or architecture and in
that way
I’m enriching the culture that’s the to
me that’s the American Dream you do
something as an individual know that
knowing that you’re enriching the
society at large in other countries it’s
the opposite mentality everything is
geared towards the social and the
individual doesn’t matter as much and so
you don’t really have that sense like if
you’re somebody with a lot of ambition
and you want to create a great business
it’s almost like you feel guilty you
feel ashamed you feel dirty because your
first thought is towards realizing your
own ambition and it is not towards the
collecting these are these are
generalizations but I believe that that
is the strength of America and you go to
a country now like France which is
experiencing a lot of economic problems
in Europe there are all countries are
there are so many barriers to an
entrepreneur it’s outrageous it’s an
it’s amazing that they were able to
survive as long as they have that they
have economies doing as well as they are
um things are much better here than
anywhere in Europe by far maybe anywhere
in the world so maybe we don’t have we
shouldn’t be complaining so much so do
you think that could be a reason also
why we’re dropping our standards because
we keep comparing ourselves to other
countries that we’re doing better ups at
least we’re doing better than X Y Z no I
mean I mean mostly you hear a lot of
whining here or other countries here
here okay got it
um I’m not a big believer in whining I
believer in looking at what’s good
what’s their potential and stop
complaining and woe is me among the
intelligentsia here there’s definitely a
sense of what the Carter word of malaise
were on the decline cetera woes me
I don’t like to think like that I think
that there’s tremendous energy and maybe
it’s coming from a lot of the immigrants
that are coming to the United States so
I don’t know 20 years things could be
bleak but I am the part of is very
helpful so the immigrants are bringing
hope to the country they always have
yeah of course they always have so it
showed the entitlement mindset can that
really if we’re going to the entitlement
mentality hypothetically you know we if
we can’t if we all go into that
direction or maybe there’s a you know
sprinkle of that going on a little bit
you know I feel bad for me you know all
that stuff how do you shift that
entitlement mentality based on what
you’ve studied what you’ve seen with
different you know countries how do you
shift that mindset outside of leaving
the entitlement mentality it’s a you
know that’s pretty tough to do I can see
it being a lot easier to go from it’s
almost like imagine if you and I are
brothers okay hypothetically and we’re
step brothers now you come from another
marriage
your father was extremely disciplinarian
okay and your mother she loved you but
your father was an extremely
disciplinarian hypothetically and your
father marries my mother okay
so my mother and your mother are very
similar but my father was not a
disciplinarian okay so now I’m going
from a father that never disciplined me
he didn’t make me do anything and now
your father comes in and says Patrick
get your act together for you to tell me
what to do my dad wasn’t like that and
you’re used to it so how do we get me to
get accustomed to the mindset that your
father taught you I think that’s
something that we see the entitlement
mindset well it’s once again of the
belief a fundamental belief I keep
coming down to back to them we discussed
a little bit at lunch where the crash of
’08 played a bit of a role if you
believe that people get ahead in America
by kind of cheating by playing with the
rules you know the way the banks were
etcetera that that’s how you get ahead
in America it’s all about elites if
you’re in on Wall Street you can make
millions of dollars it’s
little man is kind of kept out of it if
you believe that that’s what it’s all
about then you’re not you’re going to
have that inevitably that entitlement
mentality and nothing’s going to drum it
out of you so it’s the connections that
you the individual makes in their mind
do they see people out there who let’s
say I’m somebody that didn’t have a good
education I didn’t have an opportunity
to go to a great school
I come from an inner city wherever do I
see examples of people out there who
have been able to get ahead on their own
through their own initiative their own
Drive create a great business their role
their role players and models in my
community and not having to do with rap
or entertainment but their business
solid things that employing a lot of
people I believe that that that there’s
a connection between your effort and
achievement if you see enough people out
there in your family in your community
then you begin to believe that you
yourself can do it and there’ll be a
tipping point where point there’ll be a
tipping point where there’s enough of
that going on we’re a culture starts
developing from the inside yeah you know
we now do we need medias up with that
and so where media instead you need you
need help you’re already too far gone if
you need medias hell yeah really so
you’re saying this is possible without
the need of media so we live in a
culture where people are so saturated
with internet media etc that it just
goes through one ear out the so you
don’t think media has any influence
it might reel it right it does but it’s
it’s minor compared to something that
comes from deeper Wow okay that’s
interesting well why don’t we transition
you talk about education so after high
school Robert Greene the author 40 laws
of power goes to college you go to
Berkeley Indian with University of
Wisconsin and then you come out and I
read that you had some 80 different John
but yet 80 different jobs before the
book came about yeah so when you when
you talk to your partner and you guys
decided to write the 40 laws of power
why 48 laws why not
50 laws why not 25 laws how did you come
up with a number 48 laws well basically
what happened was I have been riding
from my whole life but I never read the
book and I was about 35 years old and I
was in Italy for a job and I met this
man yost Albers who’s a book packager
mm-hmm and he asked me if I had any
ideas for a book and all of my
experience working in the work world
with particularly in Hollywood a lot of
bad exceed a lot of power games and I
read a lot of Machiavelli and so I just
sort of improvised this idea he got very
excited and he said look you write a
treatment and if I like it I’ll pay you
to live for a year to write the book and
I’ll get it sold and as I’m doing the
research for it
and I’m reading Machiavelli I’m reading
history I’m just going I’m like a fiend
I’m so excited this book’s gonna change
my life you know and I come up there are
these are these patterns in history and
I haven’t called them laws yet they’re
these patterns if you do better than
your superior if he gets or she gets
insecure about you you’re in trouble oh
I’ve seen that in China in Renaissance
Italy in modern America ah never
outshine the master and I’m slowly
creating more of these and I end up with
like 72 and I say I told yo the partner
I’ve got these sort of these laws and
stuff he says Oh Robert he’s Dutch
that’s your book the laws of power okay
yeah you’re right that’s a good idea and
it’s to me it’s like cooking you take a
sauce and you put it on the burner and
the more you cook the less and less it
gets to lose a point where it’s really
strong and taste tastes wonderful
you can’t cook it too much but you have
to cook it just right well I had those
72 laws and they were too many and as
the sauce gets better and I’m learning
more that’s out that’s how that’s how
that’s how down to 48 and that was like
the heart of that’s the really good
sauce that’s no more and they’re no less
48
you know what am I so interesting I
would be I bet everybody would be so
curious to know the 24 laws that gonna
make the cutoff I would be so cute if
you if you wrote something and said the
24 that didn’t make the cut off well
that’s not they didn’t make the cutoff
where they combine whatever like
nothing’s missing so for instance I know
I remember one which is about don’t make
promises
it’s a Napoleonic idea a lot of kings
have this idea because if you make too
many promises you’re going to be held to
them so a king a ruler should never make
too many promises be very sparing with
them I was gonna have a wall like that I
gotta it’s isn’t the law it’s not a it’s
not weighty enough but I can put it into
say less than necessary you know I can
put it in other laws that’s what
happened got it so it got filtered down
from 70 to some of them got combined
together by the way that question was
asked because I asked the question on
Twitter and we had mono Awasthi from
Norton India Butare Pradesh who asked
the question why 40 laws but I asked the
question some guy from India okay Jerry
Titus he came out and he said look this
this book you know this book is not a
book that people need to read it’s
purely manipulative and it’s what our
politician you know there’s some critic
a lot of criticism about this book as
well all our politicians subscribe to
this book and he wrote a book that’s so
disgusting and it’s so many deceptions
to it etc etc and he said he has one
question he said is half truth a whole
lie I said let me ask Robert a question
to see what he’s gonna how he’s going to
ask to answer that question for you I
don’t know what that means
you know I I do a lot of consulting etc
and people ask questions and I say well
what do you really mean I had Jerry here
get specific my friend tell me what that
is what what in real life is that about
you know do you know what that what he’s
asked so Jerry why don’t you ask that
question I’ll send it to him and maybe
he’ll respond back to you but uh on that
but no I get what you’re saying I guess
you know what when he was going into it
he is is think about it this way here’s
what it is I mean this was my respond
to him my respond back was explained to
me his question yeah he’s asking a
question that you know a politician gets
up on stage and he says you know
such-and-such health care program is not
going to cost you a single penny it’s
going to be free and we find that a year
later that it does so what’s a
half-truth is that a lie is that okay to
do to gain the power these are questions
that drive me crazy of course it’s not
okay if we lived in an ideal society
yeah if this were a utopia yes that
would be terrible but we don’t live in a
utopia where humans were descended from
primates I can and people lie and
politicians tells the politicians like I
don’t know probably a lot of problem is
with people who believe that we should
be something that we’re done that was my
answer BAM
so people do not Eve obviously when
you’re politician says that you should
be saying well I think I know it he’s
plate I know a game he’s playing a lot
of power right yes you know yeah so half
the book I wrote to make people less
naive mmm-hmm but I mean getting to you
the question of I don’t know if this is
a question is the book evil okay I saw
here would be my response first of all
humans by our nature we want power the
feeling that you have no control it’s
just that we define the word power in
the wrong way we think of power as some
sort of dark force out there among
negative a positive thing oh but it’s
always the other person yes it’s we
never have power it’s always the other
guy that has the power and get holds me
yeah no I’m talking about it’s you as an
individual yep when you’re growing up in
your family when you’ve got siblings and
a parent you want more attention you
want mother and father to look at you
you want the teacher to recognize you
you want to be able to have influence
over your parents and over your friends
you want power you want a degree of
control the feeling that you have from a
very early age that you have no power
warps it makes you neurotic drives you
absolutely crazy you want the feeling
that you have control over your destiny
over your circumstances that’s the
formula that’s the definition that I
give of power the other thing is we
humans have actually
love power we’re so we do we are seduced
by it
that’s why shows like the house of cards
which show all that ugly dark stuff is
so popular we love hearing about it we
love the things that go on but just
physically if we go to a place of power
let’s say a big Hollywood studio if I
transported you out there to the offices
of HBO or some amazing office and you be
like wah and you’d be excited you want
to learn right worth right we are
fascinated by it it’s just we don’t want
to admit it the book is an expose of
what happens in every single human
environment you put three people
together and their power games mate – I
don’t know maybe not you but three
people together there’s there are power
games yes okay no matter what so these
are the power games that are played in
Hollywood in business in politics in the
arts in sports etc you may not like them
I’m not saying that you’re going to like
selective honesty where I talk about how
people use fake sincerity to get their
way but you’re going to want to know
about it because people use it all the
time these are the laws that are cut
that happened behind closed doors in all
of these different arenas if you’re an
adult you’ll be able to know how to
handle that knowledge in a good way yeah
in my respond back to him was is when
you say all these politicians who get up
there and want to say whatever they want
to say to gain our vote and those guys
subscribe to this book don’t you think
you need to read the book so you know
there’s strategies on what’s well in it
first of all let’s correct a
misconception these people that you’re
talking about politicians in India or
whomever or person like Berlusconi or
Hoonah you don’t need the 48 laws of
power they don’t need to read it it’s in
their DNA if they have to read a book
they’re already it’s already to the idea
these are the sharks in the world people
who are really Sharky you know like the
Aizen er you know what Disney those who
cut those ties or Ovitz these people
don’t need a book the book might help
them a little bit them I like reading
Sun Tzu or cetera but it’s in there they
don’t need
you Jerry out there in India you’re the
one that needs to read the book not them
they don’t even 40 lost powers I think
this is a very important book for middle
America to read I think it’s a very
important book look right now we’re
sitting here we’re talking about it as a
couple people died one year there’s
thousand people are gonna watch this
video on YouTube right but I think for
us modern time you know I have some
books back here that you know you were
kind of going through you know whether
it’s the prints right or we have Seneca
you know you and I both subscribes to
some stoas and we’re meditations or an
elector 48 laws of you know or history
from Will Durant or part of war I think
and this is my honest opinion I think a
thousand years from now people are going
to be still reading forty laws of power
that’s my opinion obviously all I wish I
could be around I I think this book is
going to have effect for thousands of
years I think it’s a timeless evergreen
book that would be forever used and I
recommend everybody to read it so here’s
one other question we’ll go in and I’ll
go to some specific questions I have for
you from the book cancer now from Dallas
Texas as it’s a pretty good question
here who’s the one person you’re
fascinated with fascinated with the most
like leaders you’ve studied who
fascinated you the most you know it’s
it’s interesting because each book that
I write there generally is like a main
figure or a couple main leaders and I
have to like the people that I write
about I want to like they’re almost like
my friends so each book it changes like
for power I got into tall around a lot
and he really of course Machiavelli
himself but Thalia rond who was one of
the main characters in Teresa because he
was so devious that’s so brilliant and
if you think about it here’s a man if
you read the 48 laws of power you’ll get
a lot of this who came from the
aristocracy in 18th century France live
survives the French Revolution survives
the Napoleonic era survives the
aftermath of the pulling the restoration
and in each of all these extremely
radical turns of events he lands on top
that’s pretty pretty amazing story
but then each books different you know
for seduction character like Casanova of
fascinates me or Arab or Errol Flynn
these great seducers so the changes the
war was Napoleon I’m endlessly
fascinated by Napoleon because I call
him the Mozart of warfare of strategy he
had a feel for it he had a brain for
warfare and I wanted to figure out why
because I don’t I read a lot of books
about no pulling they don’t really
explain why why Napoleon why was he so
much better than anybody in history
those 10 years 1796 to 1806 you will
never read in the history of our above
anywhere in in all cultures a more
remarkable period of 10 years of
strategic brilliance than what Napoleon
did there why so he would fascinated me
and in my new book I have other people
now that I find like our new icons that
kind of fascinate me
I got into Lyndon Johnson because he’s
an absolute master we talk about Lincoln
Johnson in 33 strategies as well I’m
diving deeper into them really in the
new book for mastery da Vinci so I like
to whatever the subject is I tend to
fall in love with who I need to fall in
love there’s a lot of falling in love
yeah what specific fallen what books
what what what are some of your favorite
books that inspired you know you were we
were talking a little bit about books
could you put one or two or three
together well obviously Machiavelli and
it’s not just the Prince the discourses
of Machiavelli is one of the my favorite
book I liked all of his his works it’s
kind of a spirit that very few writers
have Machiavelli it’s so honest it’s
just so honest about humans and what
drives us and it’s such well written and
so direct and I just love reading him I
love through Sidda T’s in the history of
the Peloponnesian War sunsoo is a
favorite I love Musashi I’m heavily into
Zen Buddhism
and in samurai warfare so a lot of you
know people like Musashi obviously
fascinate me
those are just some of them very I mean
I read over to 300 books to write one
book so you’re asking me to choose a
month I’ll have to read two to 300 books
to write one book yes that’s a good
number to know two to three hundred
books to write one book yes Wow
you were telling me got eight more to go
before you wrap up a – a new exciting
project it maybe will give us a glimpse
of it at the end of leisure it’s about
so you shall let me get into some
specifics questions that I have and I’d
like to actually take the books because
I mark them out and in areas that I want
to ask you so in in 48 laws law number
10 infection avoid the unhappy and the
unlucky yeah okay and the judgment you
say you can die from someone else’s
misery emotional states are infectious
as diseases you may feel you are helping
the drowning man where you are only
precipitating your own disaster the
unfortunate sometime draw misfortune on
themselves they will also draw it on to
you associate with the happy and a
fortunate instead why do you think it’s
so hard for us to constantly find
ourselves trying to solve the problems
of a person who they don’t really want
to solve that problem why do you think
that’s a well that you know there’s a I
talk a lot about it in that channel so I
call them infecting types there are
people that are naturally going to
infect you with their drama with their
moon they’re you know just all
the stuff that’s going on shorter life
and I haven’t there the example of Lola
Montez this is very beautiful woman who
seduced a King of Bavaria and literally
destroyed him single-handedly and the
reason that these types you’re drawn to
them is they’re very dramatic they’re
very charismatic they have a lot of
problems but they give you the
impression that they’re a victim you
know oh I’ve had such an unfortunate
life this this man was terrible to me my
parents were awful bla bla bla they have
a lot of energy a lot of draw
five they’re very charismatic and like a
whirlpool or like quicksand they draw
you into their life and you just go down
with them because you’re not aware of
the fact that really it isn’t other
people to blame it’s themselves right
they at their core have an emptiness
they have great needs that can never be
met there’s something wrong deep down
inside and a chapter I say it’s not
worth trying to figure out why Lola
Montez is the way she is just get away
from them the only solution when you
have an infection someone who’s
infectious quarantine get away from them
go far away don’t get involved
now people misunderstand that law they
think well what about people who are
unfortunate who really have no that’s
not what I’m talking about I’m not
talking about people who are the victims
of injustice who do deserve our sympathy
and our empathy I’m talking about those
other types and everybody has known them
in their life where you call them drama
queens whatever you want they make you
believe that they’re a victim and in
fact they’re not and they bring you down
and the opposite side of it is we’re
social animals and we draw the energy
from other people in ways that are pre
verbal everyone is the experience where
when you’re with one person they make
you feel certain way and with another
person you suddenly act completely
differently right mm-hmm we have that
animal thing going on where we’re in and
if you are surrounded by someone who’s
positive who has a good attitude who
believes in what we’re talking about
that you can control your destiny it
infects you mm-hm and that’s the kind of
people you want to be around and you
know that goes right into it so
interesting you say that in this book in
and in 33 law strategies of war you talk
about it and strategy number five avoid
the snares of groupthink okay and it’s
one part it says want to fail your life
failure like this happens you’re
referencing a story be before it on what
happened with Hamilton when a failure
like this happens when a golden
opportunity slips through your fingers
you
naturally look for a cause right maybe
you blame your incompetent officers your
faulty technology your flawed
intelligence but that is to look at the
world backward it ensures more failure
the truth is that everything starts from
the top so do you think when someone’s
going through that part where you know
feel bad for me for what I’m going
through they actually have an
opportunity there to take that as a
source if they take responsibility and
fix certain areas to do something big
with their lives and they took a
different route do you think that’s what
happens at that point for who for the
for the person that is actually just
went through a trial or tribulation that
took place to them and they want to
blame everybody instead they said let me
see how I could have improved this
situation well role form and go to the
next slide that’s an excellent
observation you’re probably true that
probably is seed four but humans
naturally project a look outward when
there’s a problem and I explained in my
new book why I think that is the the
science behind it when something goes
wrong our first instinct is to look out
word mm-hmm that person did this to me
blah blah blah blah it happens to me it
happens to everyone
the difference is do you catch yourself
in the moment of blaming other people
and stop and say well wait a minute
maybe that’s not the case
maybe there are 50% to blame but maybe
on 30 percent and that 30 percent of
what you did is the most important thing
not their 50 percent you have no control
in trouble but you control what you did
and inevitably you are never the victim
of something inevitably of well I
shouldn’t say never that there are
people who are victims but most often
there is something that you did that has
a contributing factor to what happened
and if there’s ever a disaster or a
mistake or your book doesn’t sell let’s
say I write a book let’s say the 48 laws
of power I write it in 96 night comes
out 98 and it bombs and I’m not here
talking to you I didn’t write it the way
I wrote it am I gonna blame all the
millions of people out there who
couldn’t appreciate my brilliance no I
somehow I didn’t write it in a way and
connected with people
that’s the kind of thinking that you
want to go through and I think you’re
right most people do the opposite such a
good point these books are so powerful
here’s another one you have here they’re
just I mean I love it says an oak tree
let me say where it’s a law 22 which is
use the surrender tactic transform weak
incentive are you saying the oak tree
the oak tree that the oak that resists
the wind lose its its branches one by
one and with nothing left to protect it
the trunk finally snaps the oak that
bends lives longer its trunk growing
wider its roots deeper and more
tenacious why is it so hard for us
sometimes to dance with the winds that
we have in our lives because we all have
it yeah well you know you have to go
through accepting a lot of things there
are circumstances that you can’t control
and if you’re in business there’s a lot
then you can’t control if you write a
book you have no control over how people
read it and what kind of success you’re
going to have you have no control over
the economy at large over global factors
in your industry if you go crazy trying
to think of how you know getting all
emotional about all of these things
you’re going to lose your hair you’re
gonna get cancer and you’re gonna die
you have to learn how to accept the
things but more than that you have to
learn and this is something actually
that my former my protege Ryan holiday
talks very well in his book ups that I
recommend reading the obstacle is the
way oftentimes failure mistakes problems
are actually the best thing that can
happen to you and that’s sort of more
like what we’re talking about with that
oak tree there that instead of getting
reactive and going god dammit why did I
you know what’s wrong there and getting
all stiff and rigid just Bend with it
and say this happened for a reason it’s
teaching me a lesson
I made a mistake I need to learn
from this I’ve had this happen to me
when I was writing mastery I was written
four of the six chapters but I was very
late in delivering it to my publisher
and they came to me and they said Robert
if you don’t finish mastery in two
months we’re canceling the project oh my
god I’ve been working on this for three
years I put my blood and everything I
got into it I can’t have it but I can’t
finish it in two months it’s the two
most important chapters it’s all this
complicated research where I get it then
I calm down
after two days hyperventilating and I
said I have no choice
I got AB and with this I got to do it
and it ended up being the best thing
that could happen to me because those
two months were the greatest two months
of my life I worked so hard and ideas
were coming to me in my sleep as I’m
showering I just had built up so much
momentum so those the bending with the
problems like that ends up being the
best thing you can do powerful and and
that was one of our favorite books we
read last year we read Ryan holiday was
a couple months ago this year when we
read it we this was the book everybody
was in love with this one it’s great to
know what you do with your protégée
there okay next question here this is my
favorite chapter of 33 strategies of war
chapter four I mean I can’t get
obviously that’s Napoleon you know that
whole part that you owe death crap
it’s it’s it’s unreal it says create a
sense of urgency and desperation the
death ground strategy right and I’ll
read the bottom partly cut your ties to
the past
enter unknown territory where you must
depend on your wits and energy to see
you through place yourself on Beth
ground where your back is against the
wall and you have to fight like hell to
get out of life you know when I read
this you know what concerns me sometimes
it amazes me how many people are ok
living their lives without ever known
the unknown capacity that they have what
could you say about that chapter right
there well it is one of those oh really
you know I love that chapter 2 and it’s
it’s something that comes from Sun Tzu
he has the expression about put your
army on death ground and it’ll fight
like you’ll never have an army fight
like that meaning that if an Army’s back
is to the wall there’s there on the
ocean they’re fighting on a beach and
there’s a mountain behind them they
either beat the enemy or they die that’s
nowhere to retreat and they’re going to
they’re going to win is has real primal
importance for us because when our
energy our level of energy determines
what happens to us if we’re excited by
something if we have to get out if we
have to make something succeed we will
put in 10 times the amount of energy
than if we don’t have that so sometimes
you have to artificially put yourself in
depth and that amazing you have to say
so let’s say you I’ve got an idea for a
business I’m 24 years old I think it’s
gonna be brilliant it’s gonna be a
startup it’s gonna shake the universe
but I don’t think I’ve got the money my
parents don’t want to give me the
$20,000 and I don’t have enough
experience I better go get a job working
for Goldman Sachs for a couple years
that energy levels when when you’re now
you’re 28
buh-bah okay now but you’re 24 and you
say no I don’t have the money I don’t
have the experience but I’m gonna make
I’m gonna try so you go ahead and you
try you somehow raise the money you find
in an angel you had now you better
succeed or you’ve lost this person all
their money you’re going to try like
hell and you’re going to put in so much
more energy and you’re going to make it
happen and if you fail which can happen
you’ve learned something so value you
learn more in two years of failure than
20 years of business school you know and
you’re going to make your next thing a
success
so the amount of energy you put into
something determines the result and if
you don’t feel the necessity to make it
work you’re going to put in much less
than necessary so put yourself on death
ground I love it and the last one I’ll
ask you here is this strategy number 17
which
is defeat them in detail the divide and
conquer strategy I mean obviously that’s
the major art of war Sun Tzu we always
talked about the dividing cop you talk
about Samuel Adams here right and the
CEMP is going to read one sentence of it
it says Samuel Adams okay who was part
of the whole you know American colony I
believe that should one day when
complete independence from England and
savage governments on writings of the
English philosopher John Locke we’ve
heard about okay he had that obsessive
glint in the eye that makes people think
you’re a crackpot right and you know I
was telling you about the couple of
books here where I said you know the
first rate madness and same guy that
wrote the book about you know Clinton
the hypomanic edge where he’s talking
about the comparisons between bipolar
and hypomanic and mania and depressive
and Lincoln was a little bit but all
these different things do you think you
know when we when we sit there and we we
get these schools or these doctor so
that kids got idea that kids got this
you got an illness you got this you got
hypomanic you got by Pope you have
mental problems is what you have and we
need to guard this person they are maybe
strangling the next Einstein the next
Abraham Lincoln do you think there is a
correlation between the obsessive
craziness that people think that guy’s a
nutcase with someone doing something big
do you think there is some kind of a
correlation there definitely you know I
mean I could go on for four hours on
this when I talk about in mastery about
what we said earlier by your primal
inclination isn’t what I’m saying is
it’s the ultimate individualist
philosophy because they’re saying
there’s something in you when you’re
born that you were meant to achieve you
were meant to start a business that’s
reflects something about who you are or
write a book or do something in politics
or whatever and if you cultivate that
you’re going to end up creating
something that’s peculiar to you and
inevitably has a touch of weirdness
because if you’re so much an individual
you’re not like anybody else
you are literally idiosyncratic and that
has an edge of madness or whatever you
want
but all of the great achievers if you go
back had moments early on in their life
where people thought this guy’s is a
nutcase
I mean the classic case would be Steve
Jobs
he’s a total UPS manic obsessive person
to the point where he he was mentally
ill and people thought that and they got
rid of him out of Apple because they
couldn’t stand this right he was like
toxic a nightmare okay now if he never
came back to Apple we would never be
talking about Steve Jobs he would have
been a failure or maybe not a complete
failure but nothing like what he is now
so all of these people have that touch
because they end up they know that
there’s something inside of themselves
that’s different they’re going to
cultivate it and they’re going to create
a business or they’re going to make a
discovery that’s unique to them and that
is pure brilliance and if in our school
system I think a lot of problems are
with boys more than girls these days
because I know myself and a lot of boys
when you’re really younger got a lot of
energy you’re restless you can’t really
you’re eight years old you want to be
out there playing or doing something you
want to sit there and read and they’re
sitting there looking at teachers
they’re looking at little boys and they
go man I can’t handle this kid let’s put
him on a drug let’s drug him into into
into you know being obedient or whatever
I don’t want to generalize so much but I
know it’s more of a problem with a lot
of boys whereas in fact in my generation
they would you just would have gone out
in the playground and got all your
energy out we’ve got to learn to like
respect people’s differences and
understand that not everyone is a
student I make the point in mastery a
mastery isn’t about writing a book or
being an intellectual if you work with
your hands or you’re Michael Jordan
you’re a master you’re an architect or
you’re the guy who helped build redo the
patio on my house he was a master it’s
not about an intellectual thing working
with our hands it’s very powerful
whatever it is that you do you need
motivated and understand what makes you
different that’s naturally going to make
you a weirdo and let’s celebrate it
let’s celebrate weirdness yeah I like
that slogan let’s celebrate that should
be the next presidential campaign Apple
Britain Apple had a slowly my friend be
different yeah different why the same
thing no now I had a chance to interview
Steve Wozniak and this was in 2010
before Steve Jobs had passed away and it
was fascinating Oh Mike the stuff he was
telling me and we we we surprised him
with the computer it’s on YouTube as
well Steve Wozniak interview and we
brought him the computer and you should
have seen the look on it so we made that
him back in nineteen you know he was
telling about you had the actual we
actually had the computer sodding yeah
we had one of our friends from DC
brought it and we had him sign it and he
took about once it was real unique real
unique experience with them so so here’s
the last thing so I know you were
telling me that you’re working on a
project then look there are very very
few authors that if they come out with a
book I’m reading that book it doesn’t
matter who it is what book it is and
same goes with Hollywood would acting
certain movie when you come out with a
book I’m reading that book I was upset
when I couldn’t get mastery early on
because you have to hold pre-cell going
on I want that book today right I was
waiting for that book but I’ll get you
an advanced copy of the new one I
appreciate that I love it so tell us a
little bit about this project you’re
working on that you know we’re all
waiting to read well um it’s called the
law temperates provisional title is the
laws of human nature and basically it’s
an expansion of chapter four and mastery
on social intelligence guy the idea is
that we’re social animals were the by
far the most brilliant social animal
that ever existed it’s the source of our
power we’re able to understand each
other on a level that no other animal
could communicate on and our success in
life depends on our ability to get along
with other people and also defend
ourselves from other people that are
trying to harm us in whatever way or
compete against us so our ability to
navigate that environment is going to
separate us from failure and success and
we are mostly opera
operating blindly we don’t know what’s
going on in the up in the minds of other
people we’re guessing and a lot of our
guessing is comes from ourselves our
narcissism megget ISM we project onto
them our own emotions and because of
that we’re constantly miss reading
misunderstandings problems failure
disaster but we’re born with an amazing
capacity to understand people if we
learn to develop it through empathy
through a great deal of knowledge
through understanding these timeless
laws of what makes human beings tick I’m
going to try and give you these 20 for
right now elemental laws you’re going to
understand the human animal on a much
higher level why people are envious why
people are so irrational why people are
prone to conformity success and
groupthink why some people are
aggressive and some people are
passive-aggressive I’m going to give you
this sort of textbook on human nature
and so now when you’re an interaction
you’re going to look and understand
people differently gonna take a step
back and go ah he’s presenting me a mask
that makes me feel this way that I know
probably there’s something else going on
behind him and I have a better idea now
because I’ve got this knowledge that’s
in a nutshell what I’m hoping to do here
what’s the timeline on this robbery
what’s the timeline on the season is
probably if everything comes well you
know like a year and a half it’ll be al
khair at the most two years but
hopefully a year and a half well I’m
looking forward to myself and yeah you
told me something I didn’t know about
you I had no idea your Lakers fan I am
the greatest Lakers fan that him your
key can’t say that you don’t know how
big of a fan I am I go back further than
I wish I live in a Middle East when you
were watching I went to a Laker game in
1963 you got me my father when I was
four years old at the forth of Los
Angeles sports arena who was 63 Jerry
West who was Elgin Baylor was before
Jerry was God at 63 Elgin Baylor
63 point 1
on the team but Elgin Baylor is the only
person I can remember their uniforms
were blue they didn’t look like anything
uh I bleed purple ink oh man I love the
Lakers and when they have their run with
Shaq which was you know the heyday those
that yeah those three years is that your
favorite team by the way would you say I
love the magic to Showtime got it but I
love those two of my favorite obviously
um I couldn’t even watch the games I was
so nervous you know I had to have like a
couple drinks haha I was I just can’t
well I’m so neurotic when they play I
mean now it’s not the same as they kind
of suck but I was so well my god I can’t
even watch this it’s making me want to
die most painful game was Game seven
against the Celtics a couple years ago
quit even watch I mean that was a Kobe’s
having a terrible game and our test is
coming back and Rondo head I mean you
were maybe seven years old I did a few
you weren’t even here yeah I was in Iran
you know but the shocks are you with a
plane we lost against the Celtics back
then that I wasn’t here or Don Nelson
shot in 71 that he made a last-second
shot that bounce off the rim like that
the only Don Nelson I know was the coach
I don’t remember Don Nelson playing he
was a Laker killer he does he
single-handedly beat the lake very good
killer on what a nickname to give to
somebody so who’s your favorite lake
revolt I was in magic or Kobe you know I
recently had lunch with Kareem that was
pretty awesome because I grew up a
Karima he’s a pretty interesting guy but
very very intellectual deep thinker he
is he’s a very interesting guy magic I
think is the greatest player I’ve ever
seen play
I love Kobe I love Kobe for who he is
imagine where the greatest play you’ve
ever simply you had well I was seeing
him on the court the name magic is real
the guy could do things that you just
can’t believe six nine and he’s acting
like he’s six feet tall he’s like a
point guard at six nine and he makes
these passes and he’s just like a jenna
field general and he’s so creative I
don’t think I’ve seen Michael Jordan etc
Magic’s the greatest player I’ve ever
seen are you kidding me yeah no I’m not
kidding you kidding okay
so you’re a real-deal Laker fan so you
know it roughly if Westbrook comes you
next year okay and we get Westbrook and
maybe we get
rent or some of the variants probably
gonna go to Washington but they make it
whisper because he played here yeah if
they put a good team together maybe
we’ll go watch a courtside game you and
I that’d be kind of fun for us students
so anyway this this has been this has
been one of the coolest interviews I’ve
done I’ve been looking forward to this
for twelve years when I read the book
first time I said I want to meet this
guy and I want to speak to this guy and
it’s been a pleasure having me here I
didn’t disappoint none of the lunch I
wish the lunch we could add a longer
lunch because that was evening pretty
intense and exciting what we were
talking about but you know if you’re
watching this right now and I could tell
you a couple things if you haven’t read
any of his books if you haven’t read any
of Roberts books ever I recommend you
picking up every single one of the books
we have the link on the bottom and
description and reading it it also at
the same time or you know Roberts got a
website as well it’s called power
seduction and war comm power seduction
and war.com the end is spelled out
you’ll see and a and D the link is on
the videos wise you can see in it that
link will be on the description
description as well go to that website
subscribe to his newsletters track what
he’s doing as well and obviously his
book the moment it comes out we’re
probably going to be doing something
here together as well having them back
to do it shouldnt that be great if you
come back to do something with that
video but it’s been a pleasure having
you here with us if you haven’t
subscribed to our channel subscribe to
the channel as well but Robert thank you
so much for coming out we had a great
time you thank you for your size my pleasure
taming and today we have a very special
guest with us the author of the infamous
book 48 laws of power Robert Greene
thank you for joining us today my
pleasure Patrick thank you for having us
it took a while but I’m glad I’m finally
here it took us what 12 years we have we
had a good time at Raffi’s place yes
very much
and it was a good conversation that was
probably pre-interview you know the
stuff we talked about hopefully we’re
going to change the world together you
and I somebody should have recorded
somebody should have recorded what we
talked about but you know it’s
interesting it was 2003 mm-hmm Robert I
had a friend comes up to me and his name
is Ben and he says Patrick there is this
book you gotta read but it’s a secret
you can’t tell everybody because it’s a
very powerful book but if I tell you
about it
you can’t recommend it to anybody else I
said what’s the name of this book he
sneaks away it goes to the back of his
car says the book is called 48 laws of
power but I promise me you’re not gonna
recommend it anybody well he’s
recommending it he’s recommending it to
me and I started reading and I said what
an incredible book you know with 40 laws
of power and then from there you know
obviously 33 strategies of war art of
seduction mastery 50th law last year or
book club we read your mastery was about
a thousand people that read the book
together phenomenal book but let’s get
right into it so here’s what I like to
do I like to first a you know get to
know who Robert Greene was before how
the inspiration got started there’s some
general questions I was asked through
social media and I have some specific
questions for you from the book and it
will go from there so Robert Green who
was Robert Green in high school who most
bit of a lost kid had long hair you know
and I was a bit of a weirdo didn’t fit
in you know I went to a kind of a surfer
school Palisades high a lot of blond
kids sir not a very intellectual
environment and I loved books in
and my by then even then my head was in
the clouds so I just didn’t fit in but I
have you know some good friends I had
pretty close family and I to be honest
with you I got into drugs which
continued on in college so a little bit
of high school sort of a cloud I got
straight A’s never got a B my whole life
and then the drugs helped you get
straight angel I don’t know how I did it
I don’t know how I did it particularly
in college but I think knowing that I
had a love of knowledge kept me alive
kept me straight you know I just wanted
to read about everything I don’t know
what if I understood what I was reading
but I just loved reading about history
about war about supporting you like
reading about his I know my I tell my
mom remembers this story when I was 13
12 maybe I had a list of books that I
wanted to order from this sort of this
company that shipped books out for young
readers and I had like 20 books that I
kicked off half of them were about wars
and battles I just was so I loved
reading about warfare when I was a kid
so I was a bit of a lost kid I don’t
know if you saw a photograph of me back
then you wouldn’t really recognize me
can we actually find it on him like oh
my wife has it as a picture in her
office of me was long hair whenever
people come over she says look this is
what Robert looked like and I oh whoa
let me ask it what was it look like
Peter Frampton I’m really curious to see
it because you look like a Hollywood
actor so I’d be curious in a way you
looked at High School but but let me ask
you was there like was it your father
your mother was it an uncle was it
somebody that inspired you’d want to
read history was just in you period
it’s something I talk about in mastery
mm-hmm
I have a chapter the most important
chapter in the book is about your life’s
task discovering what it is that you
were meant to do in life which i think
is the most important thing for anybody
in anybody’s life and I go in the book I
recount all of these famous people
and the moment when they were three four
or five years old and they discovered
what it is that they love like Einstein
with the compass or Steve Jobs passing
by an electronics store and the point in
the book is there’s no real rational
explanation why people are attracted to
something I can’t give you a rational
reason why I was drawn to books
literature my father isn’t like that he
was a businessman he was sold chemical
supplies my mother was a housewife you
know they loved learning but neither of
them were readers or intellectuals or
anything I can’t explain it to you
there’s no rational reason it’s just
something I was drawn to it there was
something within me that was just drawn
to history I know it was like history I
just fascinated by anything in any
culture any period and in literature so
there’s no there’s nothing like I can’t
say why so so so with that because you
talk about this also in mastery I’m
curious if you can maybe allude to a
little bit more is do you think certain
people who are you know end up doing
something incredibly great you know I’m
talking about something that’s out of
the ordinary I mean you didn’t write a
book that sold 50,000 copies it sold
millions of copies worldwide
all of them are international
bestsellers do you think somebody who
does incredibly great things in their
lives
is it something they’re born with or is
it events that affects them
is it an influence is it an inspiration
you know how you say leaders are born or
leaders are built what’s your opinion
about that well like anything in life
it’s a combination of things there’s no
simple little formula so first of all
genetics definitely play a role and I
talked about it in mastery so why am i
attracted to books why is Tiger Woods
drawn at the age of 12 months or 14
months
attracted to golf etc etc there’s a
genetic reason for that there’s
something about the way your brain is
wired there’s a great book I think it’s
Howard Gardner called the five frames of
mind I believe I don’t know I’m quoting
it correctly there are five forms of
human intelligence the kinetic the
mathematical the etc etc each person
tends to have a dominant form of
intelligence that they’re that they’re
good at why its genetic
you’re born that way it’s not
necessarily anything that comes from
your parents and could come from way
back in your in your past that’s an
important component and then the key in
life is being aware of what makes you
different of what you’re naturally drawn
to of these what I call these I forget
my word in the in the book easy
inclinations these primal inclinations
but then of course experience is equally
important of your teachers your parents
the environment that you live in of the
people that you know as you’re growing
up have a huge impact on you you throw
all of that together and that sort of
makes who you are if I hadn’t met Joe
stell firs when I was 35 years old the
man who ended up packaging the 48 laws
of power I could have all the knowledge
and brilliant certain wisdom about power
but I would have never written the book
because I met him so luck you had no
plans of reading writing a book at all
not really no so luck enters into the
picture you know there’s there’s a
element of luck you don’t choose your
parents you don’t choose that you were
born in Iran all these other things come
together and you know so obviously
initiative and effort and something
inside of you and willpower is the most
important thing your level of
persistence not anything intellectual
but then there’s an element of luck and
blind chance and genetics that come in
and play an important role so so the
part about the desire the willpower can
a generation be also affected by that by
standard of a government or what’s being
the media can all of that also have an
effect on that the firepower in the
belly yes most definitely you know
America in the 19th century when you
were growing up you the myth of Yankee
ingenuity the whole work ethic it was a
communal thing people believed that
through hard work that’s what made you
come to America and you know young
people were raised with that I do
believe though that some people are born
with a higher level of ambition than
other people you think the ambition is
really yeah there’s statistics that show
in a group of a hundred people five will
be leaders they show there’s a studies
that show the 5% rule that essentially
it’s my percent of people that are
naturally born leaders it doesn’t mean
the 90 at 5% are all just followers
there’s other places other roles for
people but there are people that have
more ambition more Drive more hunger
some of that is comes from just
something genetic and some of it comes
from the culture definitely do you think
when you said you know in America how it
was where you came here migrants came
you if you work hard you can have the
life that you want to have it you can
have everything if you’re a hardworking
person do you think that maybe the
millennial or the Gen Y subscribes to
that philosophy as well today no they
don’t no I think a lot of that is lost I
mean I for my new book and for all of my
books I made a lot of history and if you
look at any great culture or Empire
there is inevitably a period of decline
i per have a student of ancient Rome
Rome started declining at a point more
or less actually before Julius Caesar
too much money too much success a
generation is born living in luxury
they’re expecting to have everything
sort of given to them and in a period of
a hundred years in Rome just basically
falls apart you can look at that in the
Spanish Empire you can see about England
it’s probably happening to America as
well it’s a sort of a cycle and young
people too
they don’t grow up with the same kind of
hunger and drive that I know my father
whose family were immigrants of
second-generation immigrants that they
had but when I go to a country like in
my travels to Russia or India I see
people there who are really really
hungry for a middle class upper middle
class lifestyle and they are extremely
driven to go to school and to learn and
better themselves so I think America is
there there’s some problems up ahead and
a lot of it is why I wrote mastery I
wanted to show you here’s a blueprint
this is a formula it’s not rock it’s not
magic it’s real since the beginning of
time since we human beings have been
what we are this is the sort of the path
that people have followed to become
absolutely spectacularly brilliant at
their field mathematics sports whatever
it is it’s a path here it is because so
many people nowadays believe it is just
about luck or who if you are able to go
to Harvard or if your parents can’t
afford to send you to a good school and
you’re screwed or you have to be born a
Michael Jordan no none of this is true
it’s all about what you do with your own
natural talent interesting so going back
to what you said with hunger do you what
do you think is the cause we’re a
generation maybe loses the hunger like
you said the hunger is not the same said
your father came here immigrant you know
working building something the work
ethic what’s caused this generation to
lose the hunger you know if I had the
answer to that Patrick idea Billy it’s
complex I don’t like simplifying things
it’s one of my pet peeves I don’t like
simple pet answers to stuff and you know
some of it is to me comes from one very
fundamental belief do you believe that
through your own effort through
education through consciousness through
thinking through reflecting you can
improve yourself do you fundamentally
deep down in Syrian
right in the center of your gut do you
believe that because some people will
say yeah I do but they don’t really
believe it they think inside that it’s
luck its circumstances it’s you know who
what school you went to
etc and then whether you can you know
maybe there’s a drug that’ll make me
feel good so I don’t get depressed
people who believe in crutches they
don’t think that it comes from somewhere
inside I think you can make a division
there and there do you really in your
gut believe that through your own
efforts no matter what happens to you
you can through learning etc improve
yourself and we’ve lost that a lot of
people have lost that deep deep sense of
connection to it not in a verbal way
like I’m telling you you feel it so so
that part here can end a book in 48 laws
you talk about what mate Alexander’s
special is one two people one of them
was his mother and wonder was Aristotle
right where his mother had this
unwavering belief and the fact that this
guy’s going to some special with his
life right and then he has Aristotle
that taught him how to control your
emotions
how to stay stable how to make better
decisions rhetoric all that stuff that
is teaching do you think for me to have
that hunger that you’re saying it’s lost
you got to have that deep down hunger in
your belly on your fire do you think
somebody needs to sell that to me do you
think somebody needs to impose that
belief in me from the top maybe it’s the
country that from they were the greatest
country in world and the United States
of America you can do whatever you want
to do you can go out and do you think
that message of selling is the reason
why the generation of Americans that
were so optimistic that anything was
possible and maybe we’re not selling
that concept no more or do you think
it’s just a one-man show where the
Millennials are not really that driven
anymore I know you has a question I know
well this is a lot easier than a lunch
question what I have um well you know
you can’t sell it it’s like a culture
that that evolves where people come to
America in the 19th century it’s a hard
life it’s a pioneer life it’s farming
it’s making a living in a harsh
environment they’re still it Native
Americans
they’re out there to kill you et cetera
and you had to work like a devil to get
anything that you wanted so there’s not
like some salesman out there a Dale
Carnegie saying look here’s the America
you it was just natural they came up
through so you don’t think many Iranians
sold you don’t think Kennedy sold us on
how great we are it did if those things
matter those things are very important
but there has to be it’s like let’s say
I’m a farmer I want to plant seeds so
trees grow if I start throwing them into
sand nothing’s gonna get her owner well
it has to be a fertile soil and right
now there’s not a fertile soil so I
always talk about Kennedy thou to me was
the last real president that did what I
think a president should do he created a
myth the myth of the new frontier we
Americans were going to go back to our
pioneer spirit it’s going to be centered
around the race towards moon technology
etc and we’re going to be what our
ancestors were very powerful and and
we’re still living off the things that
Kennedy was talking about early on about
the new frontier those things matter and
Reagan what Reagan said and Clinton etc
these things are very important but
there has to be a culture there that’s
receptive there has to be an ethos that
comes from below that’s what you’re born
with it your parents instill in you if
that’s not there no amount of selling is
going to do it so from your parents
ethos from your parents so parents doing
the job what Alexander’s mother did to
inject that belief and then could play
well play Alexander’s father Philip of
Macedonia if there had been a Philip of
Macedonia or his mother would have just
been this insane element mores
of course of course you know but there
was that there was that part about your
first laws never outshine your master
there was an element she wanted that as
well I mean you know the whole story on
how that worked out but interesting then
someone asked you this let me ask you
since we’re all we have completely
digress from general questions we’ve
gotten right into it because you know
I’m all about that graph you think you
know so we’re gonna get into it but you
know here’s a question for you okay so
what caused America to do very
I mean obviously free-market capitalism
we I live in Iran so Iran went from
imperialism to dictatorship to what
happened with the Revolution and you saw
when Russia and some of these countries
try to subscribe to communism with you
know the inspiration of the book being
Communist Manifesto in America said
we’re going to do free market capitalism
you come here you work you can build a
good life for yourself if you willin to
roll up your sleeves and get to work you
can have the opportunity building your
American dream so all these immigrants
from all over the world I got to go to
America I got to go to America right and
we got 45 million immigrants in America
number two is Russia with 11 million do
you think the role and again this is not
going to be a yes or no I’m just curious
what you say about this the role of free
market capitalism is to people play a
very big role one is the individual who
maybe sells the dream comes out with the
concept create something and then it’s
the you know collective effort right so
we can’t go out there and just say hey
you know maybe during one error of a
president it’s all about the
individualist you know take care of the
rich and in another generation it’s only
about collective how do you think we
balance those two out as a country where
it’s not leaning just towards one side
or the other side well I mean America
has always been a individualist culture
um and that’s its strength and you have
to play to your strengths we’re not
really ever been a collectivist
mentality and you go drink so no
absolutely never you go to any other
country in the world that’s the first
thing that they talk about sometimes you
need an outsider to sort of tell you who
you are everywhere you go America is a
country of individuals it’s an
individual spirit particularly in Europe
when you contrast country like Spain or
Germany or England with the United
States that’s what we’re known for is
that a bad thing war is oh no it’s a
great thing it’s a great thing and there
of course every country has great
individuals in an individual short
spirit so these are generalizations but
in general I believe that that sort of
ethos
I’m going to sort of develop my natural
genius Who I am and I’m going to create
something great whether it’s a business
or you know books or architecture and in
that way
I’m enriching the culture that’s the to
me that’s the American Dream you do
something as an individual know that
knowing that you’re enriching the
society at large in other countries it’s
the opposite mentality everything is
geared towards the social and the
individual doesn’t matter as much and so
you don’t really have that sense like if
you’re somebody with a lot of ambition
and you want to create a great business
it’s almost like you feel guilty you
feel ashamed you feel dirty because your
first thought is towards realizing your
own ambition and it is not towards the
collecting these are these are
generalizations but I believe that that
is the strength of America and you go to
a country now like France which is
experiencing a lot of economic problems
in Europe there are all countries are
there are so many barriers to an
entrepreneur it’s outrageous it’s an
it’s amazing that they were able to
survive as long as they have that they
have economies doing as well as they are
um things are much better here than
anywhere in Europe by far maybe anywhere
in the world so maybe we don’t have we
shouldn’t be complaining so much so do
you think that could be a reason also
why we’re dropping our standards because
we keep comparing ourselves to other
countries that we’re doing better ups at
least we’re doing better than X Y Z no I
mean I mean mostly you hear a lot of
whining here or other countries here
here okay got it
um I’m not a big believer in whining I
believer in looking at what’s good
what’s their potential and stop
complaining and woe is me among the
intelligentsia here there’s definitely a
sense of what the Carter word of malaise
were on the decline cetera woes me
I don’t like to think like that I think
that there’s tremendous energy and maybe
it’s coming from a lot of the immigrants
that are coming to the United States so
I don’t know 20 years things could be
bleak but I am the part of is very
helpful so the immigrants are bringing
hope to the country they always have
yeah of course they always have so it
showed the entitlement mindset can that
really if we’re going to the entitlement
mentality hypothetically you know we if
we can’t if we all go into that
direction or maybe there’s a you know
sprinkle of that going on a little bit
you know I feel bad for me you know all
that stuff how do you shift that
entitlement mentality based on what
you’ve studied what you’ve seen with
different you know countries how do you
shift that mindset outside of leaving
the entitlement mentality it’s a you
know that’s pretty tough to do I can see
it being a lot easier to go from it’s
almost like imagine if you and I are
brothers okay hypothetically and we’re
step brothers now you come from another
marriage
your father was extremely disciplinarian
okay and your mother she loved you but
your father was an extremely
disciplinarian hypothetically and your
father marries my mother okay
so my mother and your mother are very
similar but my father was not a
disciplinarian okay so now I’m going
from a father that never disciplined me
he didn’t make me do anything and now
your father comes in and says Patrick
get your act together for you to tell me
what to do my dad wasn’t like that and
you’re used to it so how do we get me to
get accustomed to the mindset that your
father taught you I think that’s
something that we see the entitlement
mindset well it’s once again of the
belief a fundamental belief I keep
coming down to back to them we discussed
a little bit at lunch where the crash of
’08 played a bit of a role if you
believe that people get ahead in America
by kind of cheating by playing with the
rules you know the way the banks were
etcetera that that’s how you get ahead
in America it’s all about elites if
you’re in on Wall Street you can make
millions of dollars it’s
little man is kind of kept out of it if
you believe that that’s what it’s all
about then you’re not you’re going to
have that inevitably that entitlement
mentality and nothing’s going to drum it
out of you so it’s the connections that
you the individual makes in their mind
do they see people out there who let’s
say I’m somebody that didn’t have a good
education I didn’t have an opportunity
to go to a great school
I come from an inner city wherever do I
see examples of people out there who
have been able to get ahead on their own
through their own initiative their own
Drive create a great business their role
their role players and models in my
community and not having to do with rap
or entertainment but their business
solid things that employing a lot of
people I believe that that that there’s
a connection between your effort and
achievement if you see enough people out
there in your family in your community
then you begin to believe that you
yourself can do it and there’ll be a
tipping point where point there’ll be a
tipping point where there’s enough of
that going on we’re a culture starts
developing from the inside yeah you know
we now do we need medias up with that
and so where media instead you need you
need help you’re already too far gone if
you need medias hell yeah really so
you’re saying this is possible without
the need of media so we live in a
culture where people are so saturated
with internet media etc that it just
goes through one ear out the so you
don’t think media has any influence
it might reel it right it does but it’s
it’s minor compared to something that
comes from deeper Wow okay that’s
interesting well why don’t we transition
you talk about education so after high
school Robert Greene the author 40 laws
of power goes to college you go to
Berkeley Indian with University of
Wisconsin and then you come out and I
read that you had some 80 different John
but yet 80 different jobs before the
book came about yeah so when you when
you talk to your partner and you guys
decided to write the 40 laws of power
why 48 laws why not
50 laws why not 25 laws how did you come
up with a number 48 laws well basically
what happened was I have been riding
from my whole life but I never read the
book and I was about 35 years old and I
was in Italy for a job and I met this
man yost Albers who’s a book packager
mm-hmm and he asked me if I had any
ideas for a book and all of my
experience working in the work world
with particularly in Hollywood a lot of
bad exceed a lot of power games and I
read a lot of Machiavelli and so I just
sort of improvised this idea he got very
excited and he said look you write a
treatment and if I like it I’ll pay you
to live for a year to write the book and
I’ll get it sold and as I’m doing the
research for it
and I’m reading Machiavelli I’m reading
history I’m just going I’m like a fiend
I’m so excited this book’s gonna change
my life you know and I come up there are
these are these patterns in history and
I haven’t called them laws yet they’re
these patterns if you do better than
your superior if he gets or she gets
insecure about you you’re in trouble oh
I’ve seen that in China in Renaissance
Italy in modern America ah never
outshine the master and I’m slowly
creating more of these and I end up with
like 72 and I say I told yo the partner
I’ve got these sort of these laws and
stuff he says Oh Robert he’s Dutch
that’s your book the laws of power okay
yeah you’re right that’s a good idea and
it’s to me it’s like cooking you take a
sauce and you put it on the burner and
the more you cook the less and less it
gets to lose a point where it’s really
strong and taste tastes wonderful
you can’t cook it too much but you have
to cook it just right well I had those
72 laws and they were too many and as
the sauce gets better and I’m learning
more that’s out that’s how that’s how
that’s how down to 48 and that was like
the heart of that’s the really good
sauce that’s no more and they’re no less
48
you know what am I so interesting I
would be I bet everybody would be so
curious to know the 24 laws that gonna
make the cutoff I would be so cute if
you if you wrote something and said the
24 that didn’t make the cut off well
that’s not they didn’t make the cutoff
where they combine whatever like
nothing’s missing so for instance I know
I remember one which is about don’t make
promises
it’s a Napoleonic idea a lot of kings
have this idea because if you make too
many promises you’re going to be held to
them so a king a ruler should never make
too many promises be very sparing with
them I was gonna have a wall like that I
gotta it’s isn’t the law it’s not a it’s
not weighty enough but I can put it into
say less than necessary you know I can
put it in other laws that’s what
happened got it so it got filtered down
from 70 to some of them got combined
together by the way that question was
asked because I asked the question on
Twitter and we had mono Awasthi from
Norton India Butare Pradesh who asked
the question why 40 laws but I asked the
question some guy from India okay Jerry
Titus he came out and he said look this
this book you know this book is not a
book that people need to read it’s
purely manipulative and it’s what our
politician you know there’s some critic
a lot of criticism about this book as
well all our politicians subscribe to
this book and he wrote a book that’s so
disgusting and it’s so many deceptions
to it etc etc and he said he has one
question he said is half truth a whole
lie I said let me ask Robert a question
to see what he’s gonna how he’s going to
ask to answer that question for you I
don’t know what that means
you know I I do a lot of consulting etc
and people ask questions and I say well
what do you really mean I had Jerry here
get specific my friend tell me what that
is what what in real life is that about
you know do you know what that what he’s
asked so Jerry why don’t you ask that
question I’ll send it to him and maybe
he’ll respond back to you but uh on that
but no I get what you’re saying I guess
you know what when he was going into it
he is is think about it this way here’s
what it is I mean this was my respond
to him my respond back was explained to
me his question yeah he’s asking a
question that you know a politician gets
up on stage and he says you know
such-and-such health care program is not
going to cost you a single penny it’s
going to be free and we find that a year
later that it does so what’s a
half-truth is that a lie is that okay to
do to gain the power these are questions
that drive me crazy of course it’s not
okay if we lived in an ideal society
yeah if this were a utopia yes that
would be terrible but we don’t live in a
utopia where humans were descended from
primates I can and people lie and
politicians tells the politicians like I
don’t know probably a lot of problem is
with people who believe that we should
be something that we’re done that was my
answer BAM
so people do not Eve obviously when
you’re politician says that you should
be saying well I think I know it he’s
plate I know a game he’s playing a lot
of power right yes you know yeah so half
the book I wrote to make people less
naive mmm-hmm but I mean getting to you
the question of I don’t know if this is
a question is the book evil okay I saw
here would be my response first of all
humans by our nature we want power the
feeling that you have no control it’s
just that we define the word power in
the wrong way we think of power as some
sort of dark force out there among
negative a positive thing oh but it’s
always the other person yes it’s we
never have power it’s always the other
guy that has the power and get holds me
yeah no I’m talking about it’s you as an
individual yep when you’re growing up in
your family when you’ve got siblings and
a parent you want more attention you
want mother and father to look at you
you want the teacher to recognize you
you want to be able to have influence
over your parents and over your friends
you want power you want a degree of
control the feeling that you have from a
very early age that you have no power
warps it makes you neurotic drives you
absolutely crazy you want the feeling
that you have control over your destiny
over your circumstances that’s the
formula that’s the definition that I
give of power the other thing is we
humans have actually
love power we’re so we do we are seduced
by it
that’s why shows like the house of cards
which show all that ugly dark stuff is
so popular we love hearing about it we
love the things that go on but just
physically if we go to a place of power
let’s say a big Hollywood studio if I
transported you out there to the offices
of HBO or some amazing office and you be
like wah and you’d be excited you want
to learn right worth right we are
fascinated by it it’s just we don’t want
to admit it the book is an expose of
what happens in every single human
environment you put three people
together and their power games mate – I
don’t know maybe not you but three
people together there’s there are power
games yes okay no matter what so these
are the power games that are played in
Hollywood in business in politics in the
arts in sports etc you may not like them
I’m not saying that you’re going to like
selective honesty where I talk about how
people use fake sincerity to get their
way but you’re going to want to know
about it because people use it all the
time these are the laws that are cut
that happened behind closed doors in all
of these different arenas if you’re an
adult you’ll be able to know how to
handle that knowledge in a good way yeah
in my respond back to him was is when
you say all these politicians who get up
there and want to say whatever they want
to say to gain our vote and those guys
subscribe to this book don’t you think
you need to read the book so you know
there’s strategies on what’s well in it
first of all let’s correct a
misconception these people that you’re
talking about politicians in India or
whomever or person like Berlusconi or
Hoonah you don’t need the 48 laws of
power they don’t need to read it it’s in
their DNA if they have to read a book
they’re already it’s already to the idea
these are the sharks in the world people
who are really Sharky you know like the
Aizen er you know what Disney those who
cut those ties or Ovitz these people
don’t need a book the book might help
them a little bit them I like reading
Sun Tzu or cetera but it’s in there they
don’t need
you Jerry out there in India you’re the
one that needs to read the book not them
they don’t even 40 lost powers I think
this is a very important book for middle
America to read I think it’s a very
important book look right now we’re
sitting here we’re talking about it as a
couple people died one year there’s
thousand people are gonna watch this
video on YouTube right but I think for
us modern time you know I have some
books back here that you know you were
kind of going through you know whether
it’s the prints right or we have Seneca
you know you and I both subscribes to
some stoas and we’re meditations or an
elector 48 laws of you know or history
from Will Durant or part of war I think
and this is my honest opinion I think a
thousand years from now people are going
to be still reading forty laws of power
that’s my opinion obviously all I wish I
could be around I I think this book is
going to have effect for thousands of
years I think it’s a timeless evergreen
book that would be forever used and I
recommend everybody to read it so here’s
one other question we’ll go in and I’ll
go to some specific questions I have for
you from the book cancer now from Dallas
Texas as it’s a pretty good question
here who’s the one person you’re
fascinated with fascinated with the most
like leaders you’ve studied who
fascinated you the most you know it’s
it’s interesting because each book that
I write there generally is like a main
figure or a couple main leaders and I
have to like the people that I write
about I want to like they’re almost like
my friends so each book it changes like
for power I got into tall around a lot
and he really of course Machiavelli
himself but Thalia rond who was one of
the main characters in Teresa because he
was so devious that’s so brilliant and
if you think about it here’s a man if
you read the 48 laws of power you’ll get
a lot of this who came from the
aristocracy in 18th century France live
survives the French Revolution survives
the Napoleonic era survives the
aftermath of the pulling the restoration
and in each of all these extremely
radical turns of events he lands on top
that’s pretty pretty amazing story
but then each books different you know
for seduction character like Casanova of
fascinates me or Arab or Errol Flynn
these great seducers so the changes the
war was Napoleon I’m endlessly
fascinated by Napoleon because I call
him the Mozart of warfare of strategy he
had a feel for it he had a brain for
warfare and I wanted to figure out why
because I don’t I read a lot of books
about no pulling they don’t really
explain why why Napoleon why was he so
much better than anybody in history
those 10 years 1796 to 1806 you will
never read in the history of our above
anywhere in in all cultures a more
remarkable period of 10 years of
strategic brilliance than what Napoleon
did there why so he would fascinated me
and in my new book I have other people
now that I find like our new icons that
kind of fascinate me
I got into Lyndon Johnson because he’s
an absolute master we talk about Lincoln
Johnson in 33 strategies as well I’m
diving deeper into them really in the
new book for mastery da Vinci so I like
to whatever the subject is I tend to
fall in love with who I need to fall in
love there’s a lot of falling in love
yeah what specific fallen what books
what what what are some of your favorite
books that inspired you know you were we
were talking a little bit about books
could you put one or two or three
together well obviously Machiavelli and
it’s not just the Prince the discourses
of Machiavelli is one of the my favorite
book I liked all of his his works it’s
kind of a spirit that very few writers
have Machiavelli it’s so honest it’s
just so honest about humans and what
drives us and it’s such well written and
so direct and I just love reading him I
love through Sidda T’s in the history of
the Peloponnesian War sunsoo is a
favorite I love Musashi I’m heavily into
Zen Buddhism
and in samurai warfare so a lot of you
know people like Musashi obviously
fascinate me
those are just some of them very I mean
I read over to 300 books to write one
book so you’re asking me to choose a
month I’ll have to read two to 300 books
to write one book yes that’s a good
number to know two to three hundred
books to write one book yes Wow
you were telling me got eight more to go
before you wrap up a – a new exciting
project it maybe will give us a glimpse
of it at the end of leisure it’s about
so you shall let me get into some
specifics questions that I have and I’d
like to actually take the books because
I mark them out and in areas that I want
to ask you so in in 48 laws law number
10 infection avoid the unhappy and the
unlucky yeah okay and the judgment you
say you can die from someone else’s
misery emotional states are infectious
as diseases you may feel you are helping
the drowning man where you are only
precipitating your own disaster the
unfortunate sometime draw misfortune on
themselves they will also draw it on to
you associate with the happy and a
fortunate instead why do you think it’s
so hard for us to constantly find
ourselves trying to solve the problems
of a person who they don’t really want
to solve that problem why do you think
that’s a well that you know there’s a I
talk a lot about it in that channel so I
call them infecting types there are
people that are naturally going to
infect you with their drama with their
moon they’re you know just all
the stuff that’s going on shorter life
and I haven’t there the example of Lola
Montez this is very beautiful woman who
seduced a King of Bavaria and literally
destroyed him single-handedly and the
reason that these types you’re drawn to
them is they’re very dramatic they’re
very charismatic they have a lot of
problems but they give you the
impression that they’re a victim you
know oh I’ve had such an unfortunate
life this this man was terrible to me my
parents were awful bla bla bla they have
a lot of energy a lot of draw
five they’re very charismatic and like a
whirlpool or like quicksand they draw
you into their life and you just go down
with them because you’re not aware of
the fact that really it isn’t other
people to blame it’s themselves right
they at their core have an emptiness
they have great needs that can never be
met there’s something wrong deep down
inside and a chapter I say it’s not
worth trying to figure out why Lola
Montez is the way she is just get away
from them the only solution when you
have an infection someone who’s
infectious quarantine get away from them
go far away don’t get involved
now people misunderstand that law they
think well what about people who are
unfortunate who really have no that’s
not what I’m talking about I’m not
talking about people who are the victims
of injustice who do deserve our sympathy
and our empathy I’m talking about those
other types and everybody has known them
in their life where you call them drama
queens whatever you want they make you
believe that they’re a victim and in
fact they’re not and they bring you down
and the opposite side of it is we’re
social animals and we draw the energy
from other people in ways that are pre
verbal everyone is the experience where
when you’re with one person they make
you feel certain way and with another
person you suddenly act completely
differently right mm-hmm we have that
animal thing going on where we’re in and
if you are surrounded by someone who’s
positive who has a good attitude who
believes in what we’re talking about
that you can control your destiny it
infects you mm-hm and that’s the kind of
people you want to be around and you
know that goes right into it so
interesting you say that in this book in
and in 33 law strategies of war you talk
about it and strategy number five avoid
the snares of groupthink okay and it’s
one part it says want to fail your life
failure like this happens you’re
referencing a story be before it on what
happened with Hamilton when a failure
like this happens when a golden
opportunity slips through your fingers
you
naturally look for a cause right maybe
you blame your incompetent officers your
faulty technology your flawed
intelligence but that is to look at the
world backward it ensures more failure
the truth is that everything starts from
the top so do you think when someone’s
going through that part where you know
feel bad for me for what I’m going
through they actually have an
opportunity there to take that as a
source if they take responsibility and
fix certain areas to do something big
with their lives and they took a
different route do you think that’s what
happens at that point for who for the
for the person that is actually just
went through a trial or tribulation that
took place to them and they want to
blame everybody instead they said let me
see how I could have improved this
situation well role form and go to the
next slide that’s an excellent
observation you’re probably true that
probably is seed four but humans
naturally project a look outward when
there’s a problem and I explained in my
new book why I think that is the the
science behind it when something goes
wrong our first instinct is to look out
word mm-hmm that person did this to me
blah blah blah blah it happens to me it
happens to everyone
the difference is do you catch yourself
in the moment of blaming other people
and stop and say well wait a minute
maybe that’s not the case
maybe there are 50% to blame but maybe
on 30 percent and that 30 percent of
what you did is the most important thing
not their 50 percent you have no control
in trouble but you control what you did
and inevitably you are never the victim
of something inevitably of well I
shouldn’t say never that there are
people who are victims but most often
there is something that you did that has
a contributing factor to what happened
and if there’s ever a disaster or a
mistake or your book doesn’t sell let’s
say I write a book let’s say the 48 laws
of power I write it in 96 night comes
out 98 and it bombs and I’m not here
talking to you I didn’t write it the way
I wrote it am I gonna blame all the
millions of people out there who
couldn’t appreciate my brilliance no I
somehow I didn’t write it in a way and
connected with people
that’s the kind of thinking that you
want to go through and I think you’re
right most people do the opposite such a
good point these books are so powerful
here’s another one you have here they’re
just I mean I love it says an oak tree
let me say where it’s a law 22 which is
use the surrender tactic transform weak
incentive are you saying the oak tree
the oak tree that the oak that resists
the wind lose its its branches one by
one and with nothing left to protect it
the trunk finally snaps the oak that
bends lives longer its trunk growing
wider its roots deeper and more
tenacious why is it so hard for us
sometimes to dance with the winds that
we have in our lives because we all have
it yeah well you know you have to go
through accepting a lot of things there
are circumstances that you can’t control
and if you’re in business there’s a lot
then you can’t control if you write a
book you have no control over how people
read it and what kind of success you’re
going to have you have no control over
the economy at large over global factors
in your industry if you go crazy trying
to think of how you know getting all
emotional about all of these things
you’re going to lose your hair you’re
gonna get cancer and you’re gonna die
you have to learn how to accept the
things but more than that you have to
learn and this is something actually
that my former my protege Ryan holiday
talks very well in his book ups that I
recommend reading the obstacle is the
way oftentimes failure mistakes problems
are actually the best thing that can
happen to you and that’s sort of more
like what we’re talking about with that
oak tree there that instead of getting
reactive and going god dammit why did I
you know what’s wrong there and getting
all stiff and rigid just Bend with it
and say this happened for a reason it’s
teaching me a lesson
I made a mistake I need to learn
from this I’ve had this happen to me
when I was writing mastery I was written
four of the six chapters but I was very
late in delivering it to my publisher
and they came to me and they said Robert
if you don’t finish mastery in two
months we’re canceling the project oh my
god I’ve been working on this for three
years I put my blood and everything I
got into it I can’t have it but I can’t
finish it in two months it’s the two
most important chapters it’s all this
complicated research where I get it then
I calm down
after two days hyperventilating and I
said I have no choice
I got AB and with this I got to do it
and it ended up being the best thing
that could happen to me because those
two months were the greatest two months
of my life I worked so hard and ideas
were coming to me in my sleep as I’m
showering I just had built up so much
momentum so those the bending with the
problems like that ends up being the
best thing you can do powerful and and
that was one of our favorite books we
read last year we read Ryan holiday was
a couple months ago this year when we
read it we this was the book everybody
was in love with this one it’s great to
know what you do with your protégée
there okay next question here this is my
favorite chapter of 33 strategies of war
chapter four I mean I can’t get
obviously that’s Napoleon you know that
whole part that you owe death crap
it’s it’s it’s unreal it says create a
sense of urgency and desperation the
death ground strategy right and I’ll
read the bottom partly cut your ties to
the past
enter unknown territory where you must
depend on your wits and energy to see
you through place yourself on Beth
ground where your back is against the
wall and you have to fight like hell to
get out of life you know when I read
this you know what concerns me sometimes
it amazes me how many people are ok
living their lives without ever known
the unknown capacity that they have what
could you say about that chapter right
there well it is one of those oh really
you know I love that chapter 2 and it’s
it’s something that comes from Sun Tzu
he has the expression about put your
army on death ground and it’ll fight
like you’ll never have an army fight
like that meaning that if an Army’s back
is to the wall there’s there on the
ocean they’re fighting on a beach and
there’s a mountain behind them they
either beat the enemy or they die that’s
nowhere to retreat and they’re going to
they’re going to win is has real primal
importance for us because when our
energy our level of energy determines
what happens to us if we’re excited by
something if we have to get out if we
have to make something succeed we will
put in 10 times the amount of energy
than if we don’t have that so sometimes
you have to artificially put yourself in
depth and that amazing you have to say
so let’s say you I’ve got an idea for a
business I’m 24 years old I think it’s
gonna be brilliant it’s gonna be a
startup it’s gonna shake the universe
but I don’t think I’ve got the money my
parents don’t want to give me the
$20,000 and I don’t have enough
experience I better go get a job working
for Goldman Sachs for a couple years
that energy levels when when you’re now
you’re 28
buh-bah okay now but you’re 24 and you
say no I don’t have the money I don’t
have the experience but I’m gonna make
I’m gonna try so you go ahead and you
try you somehow raise the money you find
in an angel you had now you better
succeed or you’ve lost this person all
their money you’re going to try like
hell and you’re going to put in so much
more energy and you’re going to make it
happen and if you fail which can happen
you’ve learned something so value you
learn more in two years of failure than
20 years of business school you know and
you’re going to make your next thing a
success
so the amount of energy you put into
something determines the result and if
you don’t feel the necessity to make it
work you’re going to put in much less
than necessary so put yourself on death
ground I love it and the last one I’ll
ask you here is this strategy number 17
which
is defeat them in detail the divide and
conquer strategy I mean obviously that’s
the major art of war Sun Tzu we always
talked about the dividing cop you talk
about Samuel Adams here right and the
CEMP is going to read one sentence of it
it says Samuel Adams okay who was part
of the whole you know American colony I
believe that should one day when
complete independence from England and
savage governments on writings of the
English philosopher John Locke we’ve
heard about okay he had that obsessive
glint in the eye that makes people think
you’re a crackpot right and you know I
was telling you about the couple of
books here where I said you know the
first rate madness and same guy that
wrote the book about you know Clinton
the hypomanic edge where he’s talking
about the comparisons between bipolar
and hypomanic and mania and depressive
and Lincoln was a little bit but all
these different things do you think you
know when we when we sit there and we we
get these schools or these doctor so
that kids got idea that kids got this
you got an illness you got this you got
hypomanic you got by Pope you have
mental problems is what you have and we
need to guard this person they are maybe
strangling the next Einstein the next
Abraham Lincoln do you think there is a
correlation between the obsessive
craziness that people think that guy’s a
nutcase with someone doing something big
do you think there is some kind of a
correlation there definitely you know I
mean I could go on for four hours on
this when I talk about in mastery about
what we said earlier by your primal
inclination isn’t what I’m saying is
it’s the ultimate individualist
philosophy because they’re saying
there’s something in you when you’re
born that you were meant to achieve you
were meant to start a business that’s
reflects something about who you are or
write a book or do something in politics
or whatever and if you cultivate that
you’re going to end up creating
something that’s peculiar to you and
inevitably has a touch of weirdness
because if you’re so much an individual
you’re not like anybody else
you are literally idiosyncratic and that
has an edge of madness or whatever you
want
but all of the great achievers if you go
back had moments early on in their life
where people thought this guy’s is a
nutcase
I mean the classic case would be Steve
Jobs
he’s a total UPS manic obsessive person
to the point where he he was mentally
ill and people thought that and they got
rid of him out of Apple because they
couldn’t stand this right he was like
toxic a nightmare okay now if he never
came back to Apple we would never be
talking about Steve Jobs he would have
been a failure or maybe not a complete
failure but nothing like what he is now
so all of these people have that touch
because they end up they know that
there’s something inside of themselves
that’s different they’re going to
cultivate it and they’re going to create
a business or they’re going to make a
discovery that’s unique to them and that
is pure brilliance and if in our school
system I think a lot of problems are
with boys more than girls these days
because I know myself and a lot of boys
when you’re really younger got a lot of
energy you’re restless you can’t really
you’re eight years old you want to be
out there playing or doing something you
want to sit there and read and they’re
sitting there looking at teachers
they’re looking at little boys and they
go man I can’t handle this kid let’s put
him on a drug let’s drug him into into
into you know being obedient or whatever
I don’t want to generalize so much but I
know it’s more of a problem with a lot
of boys whereas in fact in my generation
they would you just would have gone out
in the playground and got all your
energy out we’ve got to learn to like
respect people’s differences and
understand that not everyone is a
student I make the point in mastery a
mastery isn’t about writing a book or
being an intellectual if you work with
your hands or you’re Michael Jordan
you’re a master you’re an architect or
you’re the guy who helped build redo the
patio on my house he was a master it’s
not about an intellectual thing working
with our hands it’s very powerful
whatever it is that you do you need
motivated and understand what makes you
different that’s naturally going to make
you a weirdo and let’s celebrate it
let’s celebrate weirdness yeah I like
that slogan let’s celebrate that should
be the next presidential campaign Apple
Britain Apple had a slowly my friend be
different yeah different why the same
thing no now I had a chance to interview
Steve Wozniak and this was in 2010
before Steve Jobs had passed away and it
was fascinating Oh Mike the stuff he was
telling me and we we we surprised him
with the computer it’s on YouTube as
well Steve Wozniak interview and we
brought him the computer and you should
have seen the look on it so we made that
him back in nineteen you know he was
telling about you had the actual we
actually had the computer sodding yeah
we had one of our friends from DC
brought it and we had him sign it and he
took about once it was real unique real
unique experience with them so so here’s
the last thing so I know you were
telling me that you’re working on a
project then look there are very very
few authors that if they come out with a
book I’m reading that book it doesn’t
matter who it is what book it is and
same goes with Hollywood would acting
certain movie when you come out with a
book I’m reading that book I was upset
when I couldn’t get mastery early on
because you have to hold pre-cell going
on I want that book today right I was
waiting for that book but I’ll get you
an advanced copy of the new one I
appreciate that I love it so tell us a
little bit about this project you’re
working on that you know we’re all
waiting to read well um it’s called the
law temperates provisional title is the
laws of human nature and basically it’s
an expansion of chapter four and mastery
on social intelligence guy the idea is
that we’re social animals were the by
far the most brilliant social animal
that ever existed it’s the source of our
power we’re able to understand each
other on a level that no other animal
could communicate on and our success in
life depends on our ability to get along
with other people and also defend
ourselves from other people that are
trying to harm us in whatever way or
compete against us so our ability to
navigate that environment is going to
separate us from failure and success and
we are mostly opera
operating blindly we don’t know what’s
going on in the up in the minds of other
people we’re guessing and a lot of our
guessing is comes from ourselves our
narcissism megget ISM we project onto
them our own emotions and because of
that we’re constantly miss reading
misunderstandings problems failure
disaster but we’re born with an amazing
capacity to understand people if we
learn to develop it through empathy
through a great deal of knowledge
through understanding these timeless
laws of what makes human beings tick I’m
going to try and give you these 20 for
right now elemental laws you’re going to
understand the human animal on a much
higher level why people are envious why
people are so irrational why people are
prone to conformity success and
groupthink why some people are
aggressive and some people are
passive-aggressive I’m going to give you
this sort of textbook on human nature
and so now when you’re an interaction
you’re going to look and understand
people differently gonna take a step
back and go ah he’s presenting me a mask
that makes me feel this way that I know
probably there’s something else going on
behind him and I have a better idea now
because I’ve got this knowledge that’s
in a nutshell what I’m hoping to do here
what’s the timeline on this robbery
what’s the timeline on the season is
probably if everything comes well you
know like a year and a half it’ll be al
khair at the most two years but
hopefully a year and a half well I’m
looking forward to myself and yeah you
told me something I didn’t know about
you I had no idea your Lakers fan I am
the greatest Lakers fan that him your
key can’t say that you don’t know how
big of a fan I am I go back further than
I wish I live in a Middle East when you
were watching I went to a Laker game in
1963 you got me my father when I was
four years old at the forth of Los
Angeles sports arena who was 63 Jerry
West who was Elgin Baylor was before
Jerry was God at 63 Elgin Baylor
63 point 1
on the team but Elgin Baylor is the only
person I can remember their uniforms
were blue they didn’t look like anything
uh I bleed purple ink oh man I love the
Lakers and when they have their run with
Shaq which was you know the heyday those
that yeah those three years is that your
favorite team by the way would you say I
love the magic to Showtime got it but I
love those two of my favorite obviously
um I couldn’t even watch the games I was
so nervous you know I had to have like a
couple drinks haha I was I just can’t
well I’m so neurotic when they play I
mean now it’s not the same as they kind
of suck but I was so well my god I can’t
even watch this it’s making me want to
die most painful game was Game seven
against the Celtics a couple years ago
quit even watch I mean that was a Kobe’s
having a terrible game and our test is
coming back and Rondo head I mean you
were maybe seven years old I did a few
you weren’t even here yeah I was in Iran
you know but the shocks are you with a
plane we lost against the Celtics back
then that I wasn’t here or Don Nelson
shot in 71 that he made a last-second
shot that bounce off the rim like that
the only Don Nelson I know was the coach
I don’t remember Don Nelson playing he
was a Laker killer he does he
single-handedly beat the lake very good
killer on what a nickname to give to
somebody so who’s your favorite lake
revolt I was in magic or Kobe you know I
recently had lunch with Kareem that was
pretty awesome because I grew up a
Karima he’s a pretty interesting guy but
very very intellectual deep thinker he
is he’s a very interesting guy magic I
think is the greatest player I’ve ever
seen play
I love Kobe I love Kobe for who he is
imagine where the greatest play you’ve
ever simply you had well I was seeing
him on the court the name magic is real
the guy could do things that you just
can’t believe six nine and he’s acting
like he’s six feet tall he’s like a
point guard at six nine and he makes
these passes and he’s just like a jenna
field general and he’s so creative I
don’t think I’ve seen Michael Jordan etc
Magic’s the greatest player I’ve ever
seen are you kidding me yeah no I’m not
kidding you kidding okay
so you’re a real-deal Laker fan so you
know it roughly if Westbrook comes you
next year okay and we get Westbrook and
maybe we get
rent or some of the variants probably
gonna go to Washington but they make it
whisper because he played here yeah if
they put a good team together maybe
we’ll go watch a courtside game you and
I that’d be kind of fun for us students
so anyway this this has been this has
been one of the coolest interviews I’ve
done I’ve been looking forward to this
for twelve years when I read the book
first time I said I want to meet this
guy and I want to speak to this guy and
it’s been a pleasure having me here I
didn’t disappoint none of the lunch I
wish the lunch we could add a longer
lunch because that was evening pretty
intense and exciting what we were
talking about but you know if you’re
watching this right now and I could tell
you a couple things if you haven’t read
any of his books if you haven’t read any
of Roberts books ever I recommend you
picking up every single one of the books
we have the link on the bottom and
description and reading it it also at
the same time or you know Roberts got a
website as well it’s called power
seduction and war comm power seduction
and war.com the end is spelled out
you’ll see and a and D the link is on
the videos wise you can see in it that
link will be on the description
description as well go to that website
subscribe to his newsletters track what
he’s doing as well and obviously his
book the moment it comes out we’re
probably going to be doing something
here together as well having them back
to do it shouldnt that be great if you
come back to do something with that
video but it’s been a pleasure having
you here with us if you haven’t
subscribed to our channel subscribe to
the channel as well but Robert thank you
so much for coming out we had a great
time you thank you for your size my pleasure
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