what was your first game first game you
rep do you remember that I do
Reggie Miller makes a move and I called
an offensive foul the place went nuts
game couldn’t be played for about 20
minutes who were some of the toughest
guys to ref because they talked so much
smack to you he waited for me out in the
parking lot and jumped out from behind a
pole and literally wanted to fistfight
me you’re saying you didn’t fix the game
they’re saying you fixed the game they
did different things to plant seeds in
the NBA office in the referees mind if
they felt that their star player wasn’t
getting the treatment that they deserved
Mark Cuban really started to go
overboard with that and bombard the
league office with situations where he
felt his team was getting screwed you
also say that most referees gambled this
is a crazy idea they were making
millions of dollars on it and that he
needed to continue to get those plays
and if not you know you just want to
exposed me to the NBA or have somebody
visit my wife or kids in Florida flood
out
[Music]
so today we have another interesting
guest with us me as a big sports fan I
always followed you know basketball
baseball in and sometime when you got
the referees that affect the game you
get pissed off when a referee makes a
good call or a bad call and you wonder
if there’s something going on here so
today we have Tim Donaghy let me tell
you a little bit about Tim Donna his
background he reffed from 1994 207 which
is a very interesting 13-year career
because during that time he reffed with
MJ speak
Kobe speak LeBron speak Shaq a lot of
other names so we’re gonna get into a
lot of those personalities but also
there was a part where from Oh three two
oh seven he was gambling Wow referee and
which ended up costing him his job and
at 15 months in prison and he wrote a
book we’ll talk about very very
interesting stories that if you’re a
sports fan or somebody that even is in
that world you’re definitely gonna be
blown away by some of the stories that
yeah so with that being said Tim Donaghy
thanks for being already taemin thanks
for having me yeah it’s a we had an
interesting lunch earlier those
conversations were good so I wish some
of the good some of it was recorded but
I’m sure we’re gonna touch up on some of
the stories so Tim before we get into
the whole story the first question I
want to know when I go back and I call
people around who went to school with
you I found a few guys I went to school
with you who knew you when you were 16
17 18 I asked him I said how was how was
he in school you know and they told me
what they thought how you were in school
but I want to ask you how were you in
high school if I went to high school
with you who was Tim definitely the
class clown you know I like to push the
envelope a little bit and have a lot of
fun so definitely the guy that was
trying to make everybody laugh were you
a chippy guy were you always a
competitive guy were you always like
were you from a family that you had high
expectations where was that coming from
definitely probably overly competitive
even today when when I do something with
the kids you know you know talk about
having four or four daughters you know
whatever it is if we’re playing a game
of cards you know I want to win so yeah
overly competitive you know at every
aspect of you
you play to win that’s the way I grew up
did you play all sports or was it mainly
basketball mainly basketball baseball a
little bit of football when I was
younger but the main thing that I enjoy
the most of basketball and you pretty
competitive basketball player I mean
like you you you played you actually
know how to play the game yeah
definitely I mean like I said when when
I got involved in doing something
competitive it wasn’t something where
you know second place was an option you
played to win and win at all cost
is that a standard that was set by pops
or mom was that like a family standard
like you better compete I think it’s
just a standard growing up with you know
four brothers everybody was competitive
in the area that I grew up in you just
played the win there was no way that you
know anyone wanted to come in second
place way if you went home and second
place you better go home with a bunch of
blood on you I have read some word that
you had a one time you came home and he
had a third place trophy or second place
trophy you pulled on the one you threw
it out because you don’t want to show
your day you were second or third place
is that right right over the Walt
Whitman Bridge you know roll the window
down threw it right in the water
literally absolutely and you remember
this oh sure because you know I had
older brothers that you know had
trophies you know we all line I’m up on
the heaters in the bedroom and you know
nobody had a second-place trophy it
wasn’t like it is today where everybody
gets a participation trophy you know it
was a first-place trophy or nothing so
you definitely didn’t want to walk in my
house with that is that competitiveness
like the part I’m trying I got three
kids myself so I’m just curious to know
was it was it driven by somebody meaning
was it just because you had four
brothers you know four of you and
obviously that’s a competitive
environment period but you’re in Philly
which is a very competitive sports city
all sports is competitive and the
culture in Philadelphia especially where
you grew up at so was your dad expecting
all of you guys to perform at a high
level or no it was purely just a
brother’s no no absolutely I mean my dad
you know had high expectations for all
of us and whatever we got involved in
even today you know when I gotten in all
my trouble yeah we’d have conversation
I’ll be like I don’t know what I’m gonna
do with my life and he said you know I
don’t care if you have to dig ditches
for a life just be the best ditch digger
you can bake he would tell you that
absolutely really so even when you went
through it he still kept the same
mindset with you yes yes Wow
it was you guy that he felt bad for you
for
go on throw it or no he just said man up
take the responsibility like what
approach did he take with you I think
deep down he probably felt bad but now
definitely man up you got yourself into
this you’re gonna have to get yourself
out of it you have four daughters and
you know dig deep and do what you have
to do interesting so how does one go
about becoming a referee in DMV I mean
obviously you don’t have a lot of
referees like this isn’t an option where
you’ve got 200 reps ref in a game it’s
typically the same faces for decade two
decades some even 30 years of refereeing
right or more so how does well become a
referee you know I was fortunate that
the area I was from was a hotbed for
referees or there was college referees
or even NBA referees we had Joe
Crawford’s we had Tom wash and Steve
Joffe so you know we had a lot of people
that you know came from our area so you
know was that though what why why from
there I think what happened was is
people saw and these people were
accessible in the community and you
thought to yourself wow if he did it I
could probably do it because I guess I’m
asking a question you went to school
same school that what ed Malloy Crawford
went to Joe Crawford Crawford or Louie
Malloy
Mike Callahan I mean that’s a so you
know how I say Silicon Valley all the
technology companies come out of Y
refereeing they’re dumbing there’s
reffering going on everywhere it’s one
guy made it and he started making money
so people followed his footsteps what
was the reasoning for that I think you
know Crawford was a big guy in our area
he was accessible in the community it’s
not like you know he was some felt like
he was somebody special he gave you back
to the younger referees and would go to
a park where you were roughing uh you
know a men’s league game and he’d show
up and he’d start giving you pointers so
he passed it down to a lot of people in
that area and it was great basketball in
the Philadelphia area so you were always
refereeing you know the good athletes oh
you learned a lot quicker than maybe
somebody that was referee and somewhere
else so you got use of the bigger guys
and the hard play and when you got in
front of those people that you were
looking to impress you were ready for so
what was your break I mean I know you
went to Villanova first school yourself
right and then you were refereeing some
college games but when was your break
when
you all of us and got the offer to go
into the MBA know what happened for me
was I was lucky because my father was a
Final Four official did the Final Four
for several years so my last name was
recognized in the officiating community
so when I started to do it I I got a lot
of breaks probably a lot sooner than a
lot of other people did so it was a
training process and training program
and you know I told her very seriously
and I was fortunate that uh you know I
made it to the NBA what was your first
game first game you Ref do you remember
that I do I do it was in Indiana and
they were playing Houston Indiana will
be Reggie Miller allows you on eras it’s
a good area
Larry Brown coaching tough coach
thousand wins yeah yeah and at the end
of the game
Reggie Miller makes a move and he’s
always trying to draw contact and jumped
into somebody and I called an offensive
foul
that took a lot of guts
and boy look at the debris come out on
the court and the place went nuts threw
stuff on the on the court game couldn’t
be played for about twenty minutes and
that was my first game and you know how
you you always go back to your hotel
room and you watch SportsCenter down in
that there’s my picture and it was funny
because I I don’t know who did it nobody
would admit it but you know I had
football helmet sent to my house and
well the other referees you know saying
you’re probably gonna need this for the
rest of your career so that was that was
my first game and it was it was
something I always remember what was
that reaction your dad being a referee
that he called you saying what are you
doing that was a good call was that with
what did you you well I’m never for it
Darell Garretson was at the game and as
we walked off the floor and went into
the locker room he said we’re gonna find
out real quick if you’re gonna make it
in this league because that Kohl better
be right and he backed me up and
supported me and so did rod thorn but
the call looking back probably would
have been the easier call to make would
have been just to put Reggie through
lined it was one of those things that
could have went either way but you know
I called the offensive foul what did you
dad tell you did he tell you anything
when he saw you on ESPN or no no I mean
my dad would watch the games and you
know give me pointers here in an era but
the college game was really much
different than the NBA game it wasn’t
you know in college refereed the rules
as they were written in the rule book
and the NBA you ever read personalities
and memes on the front in the back of
the Jersey so Wow it was it was a
different game interesting complete
different game yes you actually were one
of the three referees of the night when
the Pacers against the Pistons fight
took place right what happened I mean
obviously everybody knows what happened
with Ben Wallace and run our tests but
how did he get crazy all of a sudden I
think I said to stop the entire game and
send everybody home yeah it was just bad
blood I think from previous games and
the game was pretty much decided and
over and during the dead-ball after a
free throw you know they start pushing
each other and the next thing you know
we’re trying to straighten things out
and our test goes over and sits by the
table on somebody you know throws a beer
on them and then all hell breaks loose
so yes standing in the middle of that
with with chairs flying and
you know a Jermaine O’Neal squared up
with a guy and punched him and if there
wasn’t so much water and beer on the
floor
he lost his back foot now you didn’t
lose his back foot I think that kid
would be dead because you know there’s a
guy with a lot of power just punching
somebody as hard as you could so it was
definitely scary what what made it get
to the point we’d like we have to call
the game we have to send what-what was a
tipping point there was just too many
fights going on in the stands the floor
was completely soaked with things who
called the shots to say the game is cold
Ron Garretson who was the crew chief at
that time said that there’s no way we
can play this game we got to get out of
here someone’s gonna get seriously hurt
and you know everything was just flying
all over the place so we just ran for
cover when’s the last time that ever
happened to you I don’t think it ever
happened I don’t think I was recent how
many times is a gay man called I don’t
think that’s I mean in baseball games
called give call for rain right but you
get a game called for this yeah that was
definitely scary
Plus Rasheed was on the floor I was
obviously Ben’s a big boy our test is a
big but all the tough guys were all out
yeah I grabbed Ron Artest by the Jersey
and he drugged me like I was just an ant
right up into the stand so it was like I
wasn’t even on his back Shh yeah it cost
him how many games 68 games yeah that
the rest of the year
and then Steven Jackson said something
like that game cost him three point
eight million dollars some big number
with the fights that broke out in the
stands but I think the last time I saw
something like that take place was in 96
95 season when Vernon Maxwell ran up 16
rows and already pulled them back I
don’t know if you remember that game or
not I this I do yeah this was a long
time ago I’m like what is Vernon Maxwell
doing or we told him I said listen we
got to get out here I had never seen it
that bad would fan right it was an
interesting one okay so as you’re going
through and you’re reffing and you’re
doing what you’re doing all these
different personalities who were some of
the toughest guys to ref because they
talked so much smack to you you know you
got to go back to Gary Payton you know
Reggie Miller was tough at times because
he always was trying to draw contact you
didn’t know if he was causing it or if
the defender was calling
Karam alone and of course you know
Rasheed Wallace was one of those guys
that you know was always bickering back
and forth with the referees I guess the
question I would ask is you know the the
the level of difficulty on you because
you watch the games and you see who
talks a lot to the refs and who doesn’t
right
who talked a lot to you that brought so
much pressure to you meaning you’re
playing a game you know today you’re
gonna be facing off with Kobe Jordan
Shaq Malone allows you on all these big
personalities who did you know was
demanding to never miss a call on him
out of everybody
Rachid because even if you know you were
right sometimes he’d tell you you were
wrong so he was one of the toughest guys
to referee because it was just
relentless no matter what you you knew
it was going to be a headache the entire
48 minutes the other story would Wallace
yeah I’ve read about it in the in the
book about you know he’s got 25 points
and they win by 30 and at the end of the
game he takes the ball and you know was
upset with a call and bounced it the
other referee who was walking away and
hit him in the back and I called a
technical foul on him and he really
didn’t say much at that point but you
know he was he was really upset me he
waited for me out in the parking lot and
you waited for Unipart them yeah jumped
out from behind a pole and literally
wanted to fistfight me so took about ten
people to hold him back but he really
want to kill me like to the point of
wanting to really hit you yet squared up
fist in the air you know I’m gonna kick
your ass and son of a bitch type you
know what was your reaction my reaction
was is this staying there and act like I
wasn’t scared but I was definitely
terrified
yeah he’s what he’s 611 he’s he’s 11
long lanky and I’m sure he’s been in a
couple scraps in his day I’m sure he has
yeah he would lead the league in
technical fouls I think every year 17 21
16 grew up in Philadelphia himself he’s
also Philly guy I didn’t know that yeah
how did I grow up there so so you you
reffed
for mike right when he was at his peak
and you reffed with kobe right who was
more demanding you know I think with the
referees that they they came at you two
different ways I think Michael came at
you in a way that was you know more
professional he would let you know that
you know
you olam one or he felt like you missed
a call how would he do that to you
verbally or he’d come up to you to edit
you know dead ball or you know what a
free-throw and come over T and just you
know whisper to you or you know let you
know you know I got hit down there
what’s going on why aren’t you making
this call tonight and then plant the
seed in your mind that you know when he
goes to the basket he misses a shot you
know it’s not because he missed a shot
it’s because he was fouled would he
berates you and belittle you or nosiness
now he was never really like deca he was
you know pretty professional when he
went after the referee interesting how
about Kobe Kobe you know he was a little
more adamant a little bit more cocky
about it a little bit with the aspect
I’m deserving of it he knew he was the
best player in the game at that time and
you know he wanted that treatment that
that Jordan got for so many years and he
lets you know when he felt he wasn’t
getting it did he end up getting his
ways or oh absolutely I never forget
that you know there was a game and and
this is one of the games where I pass
information along the people I shouldn’t
have but Phil Jackson send a tape in to
the league office and one of the group
supervisors came in and told the
referees that
they sent a tape and it said you know
here’s 25 plays in the last three games
that Kobe was fouled on and the referees
missed the call they did different
things to plant seeds in the NBA office
in the referees mind you know if they
felt that their star player wasn’t
getting the treatment that they deserved
how often does that happen is that
pretty common very common coaches and
owners to send videos into home office
for you guys to see not for the referees
to support offices and then hopefully
it’s going to be passed down I don’t
think the league office wanted it passed
down in the manner that it was passed
down to us you know before a game like
that but you know that’s planting a seed
and in our heads to make sure we don’t
miss a play going to the basket with
Kobe and I knew that you know he was
probably going to go to the line 20
times that night and and probably have
30 points is that protocol is a typical
protocol like it’s not frowned upon if
I’m field if I’m Popovich if I’m Riley
if I’m whoever and I’m not happy about
the way the game was wrapped and I take
these three plays and I record them and
I’m moderated and I send it and that’s
very much protocol
yeah that’s done all the time that’s
done all the playoffs did anybody do
more than others I think yeah I think
mark
you been really started there go
overboard with that and and bombard the
league office with plays and and
situations where he felt his team was
getting screwed I noticed one thing you
said about mark is that most of the time
his complaints he was right so he wasn’t
just a business guy that didn’t know the
game and he wasn’t savvy he actually was
a business guy who understood the game
and when he would get upset about a
missed call most of the time he was
right is that what your experience was
with him definitely I mean I I
personally I liked them I would always
say hi though most of the referees hated
his guts because they felt that our job
was made harder because of all the
complaints that he did which made us
have to break more tape down and file
more reports based on the fact that they
wanted us to monitor you know our calls
more and it was because he was sending
stuff into the league office and he was
asking you know why don’t the referees
do this where’s the break down from the
referees on what’s a correct call and
what’s an incorrect call was there was
there a trend with what he wasn’t happy
with or no was there like a specific
series of three things this travel you
didn’t call or this offense if I you
don’t call you are we gonna call the
kicks with Miller is there any Trent yet
what things he wasn’t happy with Mark’s
biggest gripe was and he was 100% right
is that there’s so much subjectivity and
the rules weren’t being reinforced as
they were ridding in the rulebook so god
you know and personalities came into
play so one day one night somebody may
call you know roughhouse play in the
posts again the next google come in and
they’re gonna let it go he wanted more
of a consistent whistle from the group
of referees rather than having different
crews officiate different ways I
remember one time I read somewhere
saying that they asked David Stern what
is the ideal
finals look like and he said Lakers
versus the Lakers right he was a big
record guy I’ll do later on Kiana
stopped the Chris Paul trade for Pau
Gasol that one year if you remember what
happened with that year was there a
feeling of the Commissioner favors two
or three teams and the rest of us are
just owners you’re not following the
rulebook is that word of frustration was
coming from yeah I think so like you
said when he when he makes a comment
that the the best ratings would be the
Lakers versus the Lakers the referees
see that
and the referees are paid based on
advancement from the first round to the
second round the third round to the
finals and they know that you’re being
graded on certain things so you know
that that it would say he was the NBA’s
go-to guy he was put on games sixes – to
make game sevens and he said that said
that several times and a lot of times he
was you know on a game six that helped
the Lakers advance to a game seven or
you know it was a situation where
Portland should have won a series the
Lakers won because of a lot of the calls
that he made the famous Sacramento Game
six where you know things happen at the
end of the game that just seemed
flat-out backwards
the lady with commercial
[Music]
what is happening here
and here’s Christiana pow
[Music]
this innovation try to gather themselves
that game 7 in Sacramento his mindset
was it’s another game it’s it’s a lot
more revenue and game sevens are great
for the league and let the game 7 that
the best team went of course la goes
into Sacramento and upsets them that’s a
year that you know Sacramento probably
should have a ring on I clearly remember
this I remember right was that every
game I watch I could tell you exactly
where I was at who was reffing Game six
I know you were who else was in that
game
now that’s a bit of misconception it was
Bob Delaney Ted Bernhardt and dick
Bavetta were refereeing that game six so
I think people get Delaney and Donaghy
confused a little bit and that’s the
game we’re in the fourth quarter I think
Lakers shot 27 free throws versus you
know the Kings shot 10 free throws or
749 I wanted to be exact and Lake we
shot 27 which is insane
to shoot 27 free throws in a fourth
quarter and you see the whole play that
happens with from the Chris Webber
offensive foul you know which one I’m
talking about he turns they call the
offensive foul and in a series of fouls
that made no sense absolutely made no
sense and then they lose the game so
when when that happens how much of that
is association coming down saying we
need a seven for the Lakers to go to
game seven verses and Nets Kings I’d
rather have Lakers nets than have you
know the Kings how much is it from the
Association and how much is it just pure
business well nobody really ever comes
down and says you know fix this game or
we need the Laker for ratings but what
they do is they’ll show you plays that
happened early on in the series and show
you things to concentrate on it might be
a player in the post is to physical and
maybe travel on before he makes his move
and they’ll show you these plays and
they were always for the team that was
down in the series to benefit them so
they’d show you 10 plays and eight of
them we’re gonna help the team that was
down in the series and they throw to win
just to not make it so obvious did the
same refs rough Game seven or no no is
that a protocol what happens in when
you’re in the playoffs you’re ruffery
Game one uh-huh and maybe a game four or
a game seven so there’s your never gonna
ref you know the whole series or you’re
gonna be left out a couple games before
but there’s an incentive for des to go
Game seven so I can get another game
right do
absolutely more is it you get paid
pretty game around but we always helped
all the games went seven games because
it was more assignments for the referees
so the more games you guys make more
money the more games it is right you’ll
get paid per round but there’s extra
bonus money for the airlines you know
you you flew like twenty five hundred
three thousand dollars for an airline
ticket and yet you’re flying on a free
table that’s maybe that’s it that’s an
issue maybe maybe the comp is structured
in a way for me to have an incentive to
drag the series versus not emotionally
being connected with it on my pocket so
I’m not tempted to do something do you
think sometimes the way the comp
structure is built for refs you are
sitting here roughing these guys that
are making twenty thirty forty million
year you’re making two seventy five of
you’re like wait a minute this is
insanity I’m on the same floor as you I
know I’m on time the ref but I’m only
making this much money do you think
sometimes that leads to a little bit of
a temptation or no I think it does I
think we were paid very well so you know
the salary was good and so was the you
know extra benefits of the airline money
and the per diem money so the top
referees were making you know well over
$400,000 a year when you when you talk
about refereeing in to the NBA Finals
what is it today’s at the same number or
I don’t know if it’s it’s you know going
up from there or not but I’m sure it’s
got to be you know somewhat the same or
even better 400,000 interesting to be
making four hundred thousand so Bavetta
was reffing that game Kings Lakers now
I’m a die-hard Laker fan so I’m kind of
glad the way turned out because you know
that was a three-peat year for them but
still I want a real game I want proper
officiating as a fan cuz you want to
know who’s really winning you don’t want
to see somebody else have an influence
didn’t Danny Crawford go to MJ’s camp
the flight school that we he had and
they spoke about Bavetta what what
happened there because it seems like
Jordan had some issues with Bavetta as
well or was it Bavetta was at a
different referee was Bavetta I think
you know what happens is is every
referee has players they like and
dislike and every player you know when
they walk out onto the floor looks at
the referees and knows whether they’re
gonna get the benefit of a whistle or
not and Jordan felt that he didn’t get
the benefit from Bavetta at times so you
know he talked about it with Danny
Crawford who was
working his summer basketball camera
getting money so where a veteran may not
be given Jordan the benefit of the calls
I can guarantee it
Danny Crawford was because he was
working that summer basketball camp
getting paid got it just like when
bennett salvator had Jordan sneakers in
his restaurant old her left up on the
wall I can guarantee you that you know
he got the benefit of the calls when
Salvatore was on the floor so every
referee very interesting yeah every
referee had their you know likes and
dislikes you know with with a player and
a coach so the way I see when I look at
it from the outside is just like some of
these companies nowadays have lobbyists
you know you see Amazon moving a part of
their headquarters close to DC and being
right next to you know Virginia because
that’s where the politicians and the
lawmakers are was there a lot of that
going out with players and refs as well
like listen we got a win this ref over
we got to win that ref over was there’s
some that played that strategy a lot or
was it an asshole in rule you know
relationships both positive and negative
existed and in the NBA with the referees
and the players referees and the coaches
and the referees and owners Joe Crawford
for example hated Cuban you know I read
a story in the book about him turning to
Mark Cuban and literally putting his
hands down his pants and playing with
his junk you know and taunting Cuban he
did it you know many times you’re
serious yeah to the point where Cuban
had a camera focus on Crawford and sent
the tape into the league office
believable the top guys hated mark
because they felt like he changed the
structure of what we needed to do after
the game with breaking down tape and
what Danny and Joey friends buddies so
they are buddies oh yeah
so who Joey doesn’t like Danny doesn’t
like that they were so enthused that if
you were bad with one you were bad with
the other for the most part they were
very good friends and and the bottom
line is a lot of people like I said
didn’t like mark because of the fact
that they felt he added to our workload
you know a lot of guys like to go out to
the bars after the game and huh and do
with their thing you know when Mark came
in it was after the game we were in of
the locker room or a hotel room for two
hours breaking down the tape and sending
reports in let me ask you so you know in
the business world you know a lot of
companies run their priorities and
different
for instance there are some companies in
Silicon Valley that number one is
engineer you don’t mess with engineers
you give them whatever they want spa
treatment good treatment leave them
alone they’re gonna have attitude
sometimes they’re gonna be pissed off
sometimes do not mess with our best
engineers right when you look at the MBA
at the top what is the level of priority
who they’re loyal to if you have owners
if you have players if you have fans if
you have referees if you have executives
if mark is complaining to the
Association about Joey and Danny from my
standpoint I’m like wait a minute he’s
one year or thirty owners you know
that’s a priority how did the
association treat the most important
client at the table they bow down to him
I mean the referees were necessarily
evil if they could have these games
played without the associations so you
guys as evil absolutely there was always
how come you guys never got fired though
you know at times they did let some
referees go get fired any big names that
got fired never a big game that got
fired it was always you know recently
that you know they paid Eli row 350
grand to kind of walk away from the game
is he a top ten rough in the game no no
never anyone like that well that’s what
I’m talking about I mean what Joey did
that was pathetic that’s everyone
thought he wasn’t coming back and you
know he ended up coming back and
everybody joked around that you know he
had pictures with David Stern with farm
animals somewhere because they couldn’t
understand the fact that David Stern
brought him back again after this being
another serious problem that he had on
the floor after you know warning after
warning after warning and they still
brought him back so who is their
priority who is the NBA’s priority to
protect first okay players first
absolutely that’s the product so that’s
the product so number one is players who
would you say Stu fans or NBA owners I
think it would be the players the the
owners and then the fans I mean you
should you saw recently Westbrook in
Utah you saw $25,000 and those the fans
got permanently banned why is that fan
being permanently banned at the fainting
curse what did that fan do that you’re
gonna permanently ban him same with the
with Dolan in New York
the guy said sell the team and now he’s
not allowed back then to watch it he
think about that I think it’s it’s
terrible III you’re there to have fun
scream and cheer whether it’s positive
or negative I just I found it was absurd
that they said that these fans couldn’t
come back you think that decision is
made with front-office meaning that
Utah’s owner call front office and say
what should we do in the NBA said Adam
said you better permanently banned a fan
from the game or do you think it’s the
team that made the decision without the
enforcement of the Association I think
it’s the team that makes those
interesting guys so it’s left to Utah to
make that decision I just kind of like
how the government is ran you leave the
states to run it the way they want
federal makes a decision and the states
make the decisions the way I want
interesting and you don’t agree that was
the right decision what I don’t I mean I
could see if somebody screamed or cursed
or said something you know offensive
with with kids and women around but to
me they just you know they voiced an
opinion I don’t understand why you know
that was such a did you hear what
Westbrook said that they said to him
well III believe if that wasn’t the case
because they interviewed the guy and
they had the tape don’t they have enough
audio to be able to hear what the
and said I mean you should be able to
hear all this stuff it’s not like you
can’t investigate that and figure out
what the fans were saying you’d be
shocked but my 20 people are on to
interview and they have cameras up in
the scoreboard yeah they can roll back
things and if somebody throws something
from from a seat they can zero in if in
doubt who threw it so there’s cameras in
audio everywhere so I would think that
they could definitely determine on what
was said so so when it comes down to a
Danny Crawford Joey Crawford and an
owner like Cuban what control do owners
have to say who gets to ref nothing
right it’s all Association assigning who
refs what game and the owners have no
say the refs any supposedly they have no
say but you know there was two guys that
were released a couple of years ago
Kevin fair and Phil Robinson and you
know supposedly Mark Cuban had a lot to
do with that they were in the league 15
16 17 years weren’t refereeing in the
playoffs and you know he voiced his
opinion why are we paying somebody so
much money when he’s not a they’re not
town enough to be a so they ended up
getting rid of him I’m sorry I mean if I
am Adam silver or David Stern who would
you say in the NBA is as involved as an
on the Mavs since what I don’t know 92
93 9 I don’t know the exactly I want to
say 92 I think when he bought him give
or take when he bought the maps so after
he purchases the Mavs
how many NBA owners do you think have
attended their teen games as many as
Mark Cuban has how many NBA owners I
don’t think anybody know but I think
they started to because once he started
to it but that’s my point what I’m
trying to say is if I’m the Association
I want more Cuban owners I want owners
that are as involved as Sam I don’t want
a Dolan I want a Cuban because he cares
he’s under he’s in it that’s why he’s
involved emotionally to it and so a Mark
Cuban believe it or not
recruits more guys like me to one they
want to own a team where Dolan doesn’t
Mark Cuban’s a guy that says you know
what hey one day I’d like to own a team
like Mark a one day I’d like to own a
team like maybe Mark said one day I want
to be as a great owner as Jerry Buss
because Jay
bus was the best owner in the history
MBA 33 seasons you win ten championships
10 out of 10 out of 30 that’s a pretty
solid run rate you have a now your
daughter’s running it may be a different
story with Jim and Jeanne but yeah when
I see that I’m like maybe maybe you
ought to listen when a couple these
referees so do you think refs should get
fired if you notice a trend that they’re
taking sides like do you think refs
ought to be fired and not be protected
by Union even the best ones you know I
think a ref should be fired if his
percentages are low and and they’re
tracking every call every referee makes
and they’re saying that you know every
referee has a percentage attached to
their name yeah so they should get rid
of the bottom 5% every year and bring in
somebody else because the rules are
clear-cut there in black and white they
give you tape they show you what the
call and they and they put it out there
for you and if you’re not making you’re
not doing the job or if you have a sales
rep that’s not selling the product how
long are you gonna keep that you know
sales rep you’re gonna get rid of them
and that’s what they should do with the
referees if they’re not doing their job
they should be released yeah I mean if
you want me to compete in a marketplace
and you’re doing it based on a rule book
we’re gonna enforce the rule book right
the part that gets frustrating is when
you have an edge over me because you got
seven referees that are on your side and
they’re manipulating the game to control
the game and they hate me because I’m a
vocal owner because I show up and I care
about my business and you’re gonna throw
me under the bus like a Joey Crawford
one out of fifteen Joey where Danny I
think it’s Danny’s doing right one out
of fifteen playoffs right maddis record
I don’t know it turns me off as an owner
knowing I because whoever buys a sports
team has gone through capitalism period
or somebody in their family made the
money like dole and his family made the
money he got the money but they they
have gone through the marketplace and in
a marketplace you play with the rules
and when you play with the rules if the
rules are not fair you’re gonna compete
you have to figure out what you can do
and pivot and all this other stuff so
when you go into a league that there’s
additional games and manipulation it’s a
little bit frustrating for an owner so I
can understand we’re into it and you
want to get the best coach you want to
get the best GM to build your team based
on the rules on how they’re written in
the rule walking and that at times
decision isn’t something that’s
happening how many times you see coaches
being fired after having one
bad season – bad season they’re gone
first person you fire is who the coach
it’s an easy person to blame this guy
stuck with Carlisle for how many years
now a long time right a long time and
there’s been some times where he could
have made the decision because everybody
said he should get rid of him change it
up bring somebody else and you kind of
see the discipline of the fact that he
sticks with people he’s a great owner
anyway that’s a complete different
conversation you know when did it happen
for you the whole story of you all of a
sudden saying look there’s a gambling
opportunity here what was that process
when you got introduced to the sheep but
teesta and maybe walk us through that
part you know what happened was is I
love the golf so I’m golfing at Country
Club starting to play in big money golf
matches after golf matches jumping in
the car and heading to a casino sitting
at a blackjack table the excitement’s
there with all your buddies from the
from the Country Club and and I just
became a situation for me where I loved
it I was playing cards in my basement I
had a big poker table in the basement
and and every day in my life I was you
know golfing I was playing cards I was
betting on games college football
college basketball and it just escalated
to you know my one body having the
Philadelphia Daily News with them asked
me to pick a couple games for him in the
NBA I had just come from home and I
looked at the the referee list of who
was refereeing the games I saw a couple
of the guys somewhere maybe it was a you
know an example that you were using the
Danny Crawford had a problem with with
the Mavs and and I rattle off three
games to him real quick based on who was
refereeing and I went three now and he
calls me up the next day and goes man is
it that easy and and I was like yeah and
not thinking really much about it and
then it just kind of snowballed we
started betting on NBA games and then
you know when things happen like the
thing with Kobe Bryant and I knew he was
going to start going to the line because
they were complaining with the league
office and the referees were being told
that these plays were being messed that
you know I started to pass along
information like that to him when I was
officiating some of the games so you
know I got up to a line and then I just
jumped over and I shouldn’t have been
doing it and when you did was it the
moment did you know like the
point-of-no-return like you knew it was
like I am too deep was it the first time
we’re like I’m too deep or no you didn’t
think you were too deep no I didn’t
think I was too deep then it got to the
point where you know I was doing it and
I said to my buddy you know listen we
gotta stop this this isn’t right and we
stopped then we just float it back into
doing it and then we stopped for good
and what I didn’t know was that this guy
was passing this information along to
the Sheep and to another guy that was
associated with big gamblers and they
were making millions of dollars on these
games so when we stopped doing it and
the Sheep and all his people weren’t
getting the plays anymore I went into
Philadelphia for a game and Tommy
Martino who was a high school buddy of
mine you know called me up and said hey
listen you I’m gonna come down and see
you and you know they came down and they
picked me up and in the car was was
James Bautista and he told me that you
know he was getting a please for you
know years from Jack and Kahneman and
they were making millions of dollars on
it and that he needed to get continue to
get those plays and if not you know he
was going to expose me to the NBA or
have somebody visit my wife or kids in
Florida and it was flat out flat out so
it was something that you know we set it
up and I was to give Martino the place a
Martino relayed them to Batista and they
were making millions of dollars and it
was heard over at Gambino wiretap how
did you feel in that moment when that
statement was made like what was your
immediate reaction or was there an
immediate I’m sure I’m startled sick
because you know I’m screwed
I can’t all of a sudden call somebody up
and say hey listen this is what I’ve
been doing for the last three years can
you just let me go and I won’t do it
anymore and keep my job I knew I was
screwed either either way I was done I
was hoping at the end of the basketball
season after giving them the picks that
it was going to be over and we were
never going to do it again but you know
I was highly mistaken they were never
gonna you know as a the FBI agency
released a golden goose you’re you know
putting too many you know dollars in
their pockets for them to just stop so
now this continuous post that statement
for how long so he makes that statement
to you if you don’t continue right
believe it was December 22nd and it went
on for the next three or four months to
where they were really banging the games
and the lines were going from ten points
up to fourteen or fifteen points because
they were just betting millions and
millions of dollars on it and and the
FBI agent said normally they wouldn’t
touch a gambling case but it was putting
so much money into the coffers of you
know the crime families that you know
that’s why they got involved this is a
documented or off the meaning is it
bookies or is it a you know online you
know gambling Vegas type of stuff how
were they doing it for not to be tracked
or to be tracked I think they were doing
it everywhere I think Batista was so
strung out on drugs and you know oh it
so many people so much money that he was
getting down whoever would take his
action so I think that they were doing
it everywhere even documented yeah it
doesn’t matter if it was Vegas book
nines I’m going through everybody and
and the word on the street now is is
that the people actually in Vegas you
know knew that was going on and they
were piggybacking on the bets also so
the red flags were going up but they
were just ignoring them on purpose
because they were they were also making
money had he already dropped your name
were he had credibility with the bets he
was making or no no not at that point I
think that you know was you know want to
keep it a secret not expose it and
maximize it to the to the best that you
could do I think is he got more strung
out on drugs and he started losing money
betting on other things the word out nel
is that you know he lost seven million
dollars of people’s money and they were
coming after him and he said well well
wait a minute
you know I got a Golden Goose and his
name’s Tim Donaghy so then I thought I’m
going to get you your money back just be
patient got it
what was the biggest bet they were they
were making that you know the numbers
were they telling you or not really no
they weren’t telling me but you know the
the the agent said they were betting
millions of dollars a game what were you
making purr purr purr victory I was
getting $2,000 a game that won per cash
and when it was happening will you’re
like oh my gosh this is an additional
source of income I mean I can really
double down with this sure because you
know I I always like to have a big wad
of money in my pocket to hit the casinos
to golf with
you know standing over a party you know
sometimes we were betting $500,000 he’s
gonna make that putt I mean it was just
out of control but I loved it I loved
the excitement of it so what role did
jack play that was was Jack pre the
Sheep or was he post no Jack was pre the
Sheep and Jack was just my my good buddy
great guy and well he was what six five
you actually he played or something I’d
say Joe’s a great athlete and you know a
super guy and you know great family guy
and you know it just was a situation
where you know he was to put the bets in
and keep my name out of it but what was
happening is you know the guy that he
was putting the bets in was you know
taking that information and knowing that
we were buddies and and using that
information and passing along to people
got it was the last time you spoke to
Jimmy Jimmy Bautista yeah he owes me
money for restitution that I paid so
from time to time I have to send him a
text message that says you know where’s
the check seriously yeah and so you got
there’s a relationship it’s somewhat of
a relationship or you know an email that
I’ll have to send to his attorney in him
you know he’s not a you know a friend of
mine in any way shape or form but due to
the fact that he you know owes me that
money there’s some you know conversation
from what is this story about Sh’ma guy
you guys you guys used this phrase
shemagh alike a kid from school and what
was that all about the code yeah
Schumacher was you know there was a kid
from Holy Cross that was mentally and
physically handicapped and the Martino
family Tommy you know really cared for
this kid he really didn’t have any
family members and they took him in as
if he was you know their own son for
years and we all met him we all hung out
with them we take him out to eat and he
was just kind of a part of our family so
to speak you know and you know the
Martino’s were you know gracious and
everything that they they did for that
kid and we we said that when we needed a
name for a game where it was just a you
know can’t lose situation and I think
Tommy said you know well let’s call –
mother
because that was Joey’s nicknames maava
so that’s that’s what that was then men
double or triple the bet they or
anything you could yeah and what would I
based on what I hear about Tommy Tommy
was Tommy was what five four but he was
great with the ladies people liked them
they respected him he was strong he
didn’t pissed off if he heard you say
he’s five five he’s five my apologies
he taught me I heard good things for
what I’ve heard from what people said
about you he was a good-looking kid
a very likable kid you know and and he
walked like he’s seven feet tall I love
them he was funny as could be I think we
talked about it earlier is his cousin
Paulie Martino a venture capitalist has
a lot of money you know is he’s doing a
film based on his life called inside
game and I think it’s I haven’t seen it
yeah I’m gonna see it next week but I
think it’s like a cross between good
fellows and The Hangover so get a it’s
so they’re gonna highlight the part
about referee and as well I think
they’re definitely gonna touch on that
but I think it’s mostly you know like I
said I haven’t seen yet about Hammond
and he was a funny kid so I think it’d
probably be a funny movie are you
participating and like they bring you
know as a consultant to do anything with
it I I’m a you know take a look at it
and see make the decision after that and
help them with some marketing on it it’s
interesting you know when you when you
grow up in different cities every city
has its own culture every city I mean I
grew up in I lived in Tehran ten years
right it’s a different called when I
explain people what it’s like growing up
in Tehran and people say come on now you
out of your mind are you freaking
kidding me I don’t believe that that’s
that’s Tehran you know I lived in
Germany in a city called Erlangen right
outside of Norman Berg it was a refugee
camp so the culture growing up there’s a
complete different thing you see
different things I grew up in Glendale
California which is like the capital of
Armenians around the world if you live
in Glendale there’s more Armenians in
Glendale than you know anywhere else
except for Armenia so every city has its
own culture I’ve lived in Kentucky
Tennessee all over the place what is it
like you know the culture of
Philadelphia in sports because you know
almost everybody I talked to that’s from
Philadelphia when it comes onto sports
they talk about it like it’s religion I
would put Phil
Delphia first I put Boston to New York
three is the way I put what makes
Philadelphia this special when it comes
on to sports just passionate with their
sports teams it’s a situation where
Sunday at 1:00 o’clock
everyone’s in front of the TV waiting
for the Eagles come on and I’ll never
forget you know I was dating a girl one
time that was you know not really a big
sports fan and I’m at her house one
o’clock and I’m like you know where’s
your dad why aren’t the Eagles you know
what’s going on here and it it just was
very rare that you know you’re not a big
passionate Eagles Flyers Phillies fan
then you know comes down to the it’s
what everybody valves around you know
the city doing well with their sports
teams one of the questions I want to get
into is the part about it being asked
that you fixed the game and you’re
saying you didn’t fix the game they’re
saying you fix the game and obviously
there was an investigation done with the
FBI Phil Scalia I want to say the last
name Scala Scala yeah and some other
names that were involved in it and I
want to hear your part what is the
difference between fixing and gambling
so you were convicted specifically for
gambling right you were not convicted
for anything to do with fixing the game
right I think what the the big
misconception is people think that I was
out there calling fouls on Shaq and Kobe
and LeBron and putting them to the bench
to where I was betting on the other team
and winning you know that wasn’t the
situation the situation was I was taking
information of what the league all of us
wanted to be called in those games and
who was going to be put in an advantage
or a disadvantage or relationships that
existed with referees and owners or or
certain players like you said there was
a time where Danny Crawford was one in
15 when he was refereeing to Dallas
Mavericks games there were times where I
knew you know Crawford was gonna stick
it to a certain team because he had
problems with them so with that
information
you know that’s what I did and use that
information it wasn’t like I was going
out using the whistle on a nightly basis
to make sure you know the bats won okay
so but you also say that most referees
gamble in the NBA would you agree with
that would you say that you’ve made that
statement yes most referees gamble the
NBA okay when you say that what are you
saying are you saying like
thousand dollar games $500 games $5,000
games what do you mean when you say they
gamble what I meant by when they gamble
is you know David Stern made the famous
comment when when this story went down I
was a rogue referee 2007 illegal
gambling will cost you your job because
it was in our contract you couldn’t bet
and illegal gambling will cost you your
freedom and he didn’t realize at that
time that you know probably fifty five
out of fifty eight NBA referees gambled
whether it was on the golf course
you know we all went to the casinos we
went to the racetrack you know we did a
lot of us gambled on football games even
amongst each other so I think he really
had to backtrack and and realized that
you know what he said was wrong but he
couldn’t fire 55 out of 58 referees
because they they gambled even though
that’s what he said let’s look at a
couple of the numbers because I know
based on what I see is the NBA
investigated 17 games in the oh six
season I believe right and out of the 17
games if I remember this correctly only
one came where you call two offensive
fouls on Collins I’m sure you know this
because you read it yourself and you’re
seeing it yourself and an ESPN The
Magazine went and investigated 40 games
of that season and I think the breakdown
on the 40 games is 10 was a blowout and
then 23 out of 30
the calls favored the people and the
teams that you bet on or you you said
that we’re gonna win so that’s 23 out of
30 that favor the calls three of them
when against and four was you know it is
it is what it is but when you look at
those rates you know they came back with
a number saying that’s like six thousand
one hundred and fifty five to one
chances of that happening
and so ESPN I magazines claim is no he
did fix the game he was pulling two
calls in the direction where the people
that were betting would favor them what
do you say to that when that number
comes back I mean how do you process
that yourself when you see that well
first why I don’t know that those
numbers are true but just let’s say that
they are for the argument’s sake the FBI
and the NBA both did a investigation
going through every tape trust me if the
prosecutors could have charged me with
fixing games they would have done it
they
they you know wanted me to go to jail
for a long do you think so they’re like
absolutely so tell me why though why do
you say that cuz my brain goes to a
different place because when I was being
questioned about it they asked me you
know a number of times they were going
over the tapes and and I think at the
end of it when they stood up in court
and said that you know a lot of my
allegations didn’t hold were in order to
support the NBA when I was saying that
certain referees were doing certain
things in in playoff series you know if
they said that the allegations didn’t
hold word I just think if the
prosecution had any say in it and the
NBA that I would have went to jail for a
long time I think the FBI agents who did
the investigation realized that I was
telling the truth at every turn and
that’s why Phil Scala wrote the foreword
for the book you think David Stern
wanted you to go to prison for life I
think that he wanted me to definitely
disappear because I think that you know
when my attorney John Laura fought a lot
of the motions in court and started
giving certain examples it caused a lot
of problems for the NBA so I think at
some point he realized that you know I
was going to start to talk yes I’m
seeing it from a different standpoint
and helped me process this and and tell
me you know if you agree or disagree the
way I see it is you know what happened
with the NFL when a movie came out
regarding concussions with Will Smith
and then they show data afterwards
numbers and families would household
income above $150,000 started pushing
their kids away from playing football
because they don’t want their kids tough
concussion this is really making sense
this has really taken place if it did
come out that you did fix the game if it
did wouldn’t that have hurt NBA’s
credibility and reputation if there is a
referee that did fix the game we’re not
kind of heard David Stern absolutely
because it sits on his watch and he’s
supposedly modern doing this whole thing
so yeah it would be an absolutely and
then that would have hurt the game fans
numbers owners volume advertising I mean
would it would have hit was it because
at that time he was running organization
was saying what when you’re running a
company that’s a four billion dollar
franchise you have to look at the
profits the numbers you know you have
clients you have customers you
so for me it almost goes back to the
situation where you’re saying you know
Jordan would give autographed shoes to
that one ref and he puts it in his
restaurant or such and such person has
lobbying with the refs to build a
relationship wouldn’t a David Stern be a
lobbying at the top with people in the
government to kind of pay let this one
go we’ll control it from here we don’t
want a lot of attention for this the
game is doing good the leaguers don’t
get everyone bets the benefits from this
let’s just make sure this guy goes to uh
and does its time fifteen months and
we’ll leave him alone he leaves us alone
he can’t come back to the league we can
wouldn’t there be a possibility of a
conversation like that would Stern there
was in fact John Laurel called the
league office and said hey listen we
would like to come in and speak with you
and go over you know what Tim early on
what Tim actually did you know I wanted
to help them and and show the the cracks
in their you know cements are speaking
and they didn’t entertain it and then
afterwards you know he said a lot of
things and took my you know retirement
money away from me and and did a lot of
things with the restitution that you
know made it you know difficult for me
to survive made it difficult for you to
survive but that it hurt the NBA brand
because if I own a team I’m competing
against 20 or how many NBA teams are
there right now as a 30 or 31 it’s
something like that right I’m competing
against 30 other teams okay but if I’m
Stern I’m competing with three other
teams which is who MLB NFL NHL right na
chills a niche product that’s a
different kind of a sport right but I am
competing against NFL maybe not MLB
because mo B’s different as well and I’m
trying to make sure MBA becomes what
number one right so and at that time you
know everybody knows what happened with
baseball in the 90s with the strike and
all this other stuff and I don’t I don’t
know when I watch this like when I watch
this ain’t okay from what you tell me if
I’m an attorney if I’m a jury if I’m a
judge from whatever I’m doing I’m
sitting there saying okay if you’re
getting two grand a pop if you call a
couple calls here and there you may say
Pat I’m telling you I didn’t do it
maybe emotional you’re vested under 23
out of 30 games let’s say that’s true I
definitely don’t want
to be public if I’m Stern because that’s
gonna hurt the leak so then it makes me
go back and look at and say well if that
is the case how many the owners are
sitting on saying looking if this has
happened because right now look was
pissed off today this season
Paul George you heard Paul George just
came out he didn’t even stop here’s a
guy that could potentially win the MVP
this season realistically LeBrons out
harden is probably not gonna win it this
year Westbrook probably not gonna win it
this year Anthony Davis is definitely
not gonna win it it’s probably Gianna’s
he’s not happy LeBron is not happy Steve
Kerr Steve Kerr is not happy let’s say
you LeBrons typically not happy he’s the
best he can not be happy he’s he is who
he is but some of these complaints
they’re making you’re sitting there
watching a saying look man I mean
megistias there some of it going on so
my question for you would be do you
think there’s any fixing of the game
going on today with any of the referees
I know you’re an outsider now looking at
you’re not in the circle anymore I’m
sure none of these referees can talk to
you because you’re probably the auntie
you know what you better not be talking
to you know yourself or else I would
just assume most industry to do it that
way if somebody’s a former FBI guy that
when you know whatever rogue you can’t
talk to that guy because if you do gonna
lose your job with us because we don’t
trust you talking to an outsider loose
lips let’s just say if I’m thinking that
do you think there’s anybody fixing a
game today I don’t think they’re fixing
games but I think there’s so much
subjectivity still in the game I think
there’s situations where relationships
are positive and negative and I think
it’s it spills out onto the floor Chris
Paul and Scott foster just got into it
recently and and you know I think that
when foster has the opportunity he’s
going to continue to stick it to him
so is that okay though it’s okay because
the league allows it to continue to
happen so how do you regulate that you
know how NFL here’s what I like about
what the NFL is done okay and you know
where I’m going with this one there’s
the some of the stuff that they have you
can go back through the red flag and you
know we’re gonna review this are we
gonna do then we’re gonna do that why
can’t they kind of go a little bit more
into that is it because it’s gonna slow
down the game is it’s gonna lengthen the
game I think that’s where it’s heading
and I think it has to be done if you
look at officiating all the major sports
Namie one hockey referee namely named me
one you know
I fell back judge you can’t do it at the
nba’s he only got lead that you can
continually name the referees because
there’s always you know they allow they
have to hire more referees and spread
the games out so that the players don’t
see the same referees on a continuous
basis yeah you lose credibility look at
but honestly I can’t stand watching
boxing at all you know you saw it again
with triple G the first fight versus
Canelo oh this referee scored its
seventh whatever the score was five I
don’t know what this 4 to 8 or 5 to 7
the way he’s they scored it and you lose
trust I watch UFC because at least UFC
you know who’s gonna be winning it
there’s some credibility even though a
big personality guy like Dana White is
running in which you know there’s some
politics involved with him because he’s
a power guy you have to listen to the
way he runs the show he built an empire
I still trust the results of UFC way
more than I do basketball and even like
for me a question for you up tiers you
know what you said about this because I
saw you the other day you were standing
by the computer and TV and you were
talking about what happened I think was
a Dwyane Wade call or some game it was
that you were saying this one it should
have been it was a Miami game I think it
was I don’t know which one it was but I
just saw the Golden State Warriors
they’re facing Cavs okay and it’s the
season where they went 73 and 9 and the
whole draymond Green situation that took
place when you watch that okay they call
the foul I get it let’s say fouls their
technical foul fine do you think a
one-game suspension is granted for
something like that for draymond
like why did they suspend him for a game
in the finals I think it depends on who
was up and down in the series
I think if Golden State would have been
down in the series there would have been
no suspension but you know if they’re up
in the series there’s a suspension why
because it takes a good player away off
the floor and then it allows for the
series to go on a little bit further it
allows for Cleveland to win a game you
know I just think it’s a situation where
even Stu Jackson who used to have a
Vanda wage job would say when he went to
suspend somebody especially during the
playoffs David Stern would call him up
screaming and yelling and it all depend
on what the situation was with the
series at the time so it was so
you know subjectivity on what the
circumstance was but that’s too much
politics that is too much politics and
it questions the integrity that’s why
they’re always gonna have problems until
they figure out how do I fix that though
because that’s a no because bet that’s a
4-peat that’s not a three-peat and no
one’s done a for Peter in a long time
since what Celtics I think the only team
that a 4-pete would was what the Celtics
of Golden State’s building an empire
there’s a big difference between a to
Pete and a for Pete and they don’t even
have a three-peat depending on if they
win this year which you’d have a lot of
lacrima shoes so I have a problem with
that I think you have to hire more
referees and I think every year you have
to get rid of the ones that you know
call percentages below par and have a
standard and that way the the players
and the fans and the owners will see
that there’s some turnover I mean if you
do this is you not referees to give the
one game suspension right I mean a that
came from away above him I don’t think
that that was his Adam is the one did I
think so I think you know Stu Jackson
came out and said you know when it gets
to that point that you know the
Commissioner gets involved
yeah that’s disappointing I mean I don’t
know how you feel about that but that’s
disappointing let’s transition I got I
got some other questions a complete
different direction I want to go into
with you
and I’m curious to know what you’re
gonna say about this so what do you
think about steroids in sports or PD in
sports like you know gh you know growth
hormone steroids and football steroids
in baseball what do you think about
steroids and additional things that
people are using in sports you know I
think it puts them at an unfair
advantage you know for the people that
aren’t doing it so III think it’s tough
that you have to really regulate it to
make sure that everyone’s playing under
the same you know rules and feel do you
think they should make it legal or no no
I think that you have to make it illegal
because I think it sends a bad message
to kids you know if you do this you know
which is probably hurting your yeah your
lifespan that you know you’re gonna be
able to end up like these guys I think
it just sends the wrong message okay so
some of these guys are coming in saying
look I’m playing football I’m getting my
ass kicked and I’m being hit by
330-pound person I kind of need my body
to be a little bit stronger I need a
little bit of Chi H to be able to handle
this you don’t know what it’s like to be
hit head-on with a frickin helmet that
can crush anybody skull and you know
this guy’s on something and I’m
to be able to have that so I asked this
question because it leads me to a whole
different thing
you think Canseco did the right thing by
coming out and telling everybody’s story
about who was doing what and who was
doing this you think that was the right
move on his end you know I think he had
a story I think he was you know fed up
with the way it was the direction that
it was heading and and he wanted to you
know come out and say his side of it
because I think it was obvious that you
know he definitely was on steroids and I
think he admitted it so with that I
think he just wanted to make sure
everybody else knew what was going on
did it help baseball you think I think
it took a little bit of excitement out
of the game because at that time you
know it was all those home runs were
flying out of the park so I think it
kind of it heard it but I think in in
the big scope of things I think it you
know would help the younger generation
that they took that out of the game you
know I think that the league to be
honest with it came up with a different
way of trying to keep that excitement
and we all know they say that the balls
are juice now so you know don’t do the
steroids because the ball is gonna go
out of the park you know anyway so you
know they came up with a different
Avenue to keep that excitement in there
so I think there’s always going to be
situations that fans are gonna question
you know what’s being done and how it’s
being done
that’s a fan as an outset I don’t know
if you’re a baseball guy or not I’m a
man you’re an all sports guy so did that
do anything to you about the opinion of
the game and baseball did you look at it
and say I trusted more I trust a lesser
did you like I really don’t give a
no no it didn’t matter to me another way
got it
so what do you think about Pete Rose
does he belong in Hall of Fame you know
I do I think he you know belongs in the
Hall of Fame I think he should be judged
for what he did on the field during his
playing days obviously he made a mistake
he’s finally come to the point where you
know he said that he you know he did
what he did and I think that he should
be given that opportunity I hope he does
while he’s still here that you know he
makes it into the Hall of Fame because I
think he’s somebody that you know
deserves it and I think it would really
you know change his life how many times
has the MBA or have any owners reached
out to you to want to hire you as a
consultant or bring you and I know this
is a crazy idea but has anybody from the
office front office or any sports team
I’m not looking for names I’m not asking
you throw names here I’m just asking has
anybody from the league ever reached out
you consider to employ you now never now
any NBA owners I had had conversations
with one owner early on and
unfortunately it fell through and and
you know I thought it was gonna be
something that I was gonna do but it
didn’t work out if I am the NBA and I
hired you as a consultant
what could you bring in value to the NBA
would you be able to identify areas
where the integrity of the game would be
going higher would you be able to help
them out or absolutely you have to look
at it from a experience and referee
perspective of what referees are doing
on the floor who they’re talking to
during timeouts before the game who
they’re laughs and well you know and all
that from a perception wise other
referees you know we’ll pick that up
because they know maybe this guy’s you
know getting in a position to try and
get a call you know other players will
look over and see why is he talking in
that kind yes not talking to me an owner
or a coach will look over to timeout and
see why is he talking that guy not
talking to me and then what happens
after that series and the next couple
times down the floor did they get a call
do you go back to why he got that call
did he because he had conversation with
them you there’s just a lot of things
that you have to look at in regard to
how about the other side what a sports
team benefit from hiring you I think I
could show them the mistakes that the
referees are making or what they’re
calling so that they could go over that
and practice in regard to prepare for
certain referees and what they’re
calling or look at the league office and
see what the they’re telling the
referees to call and make sure that
their players are doing the things the
right way and enforcing what the
referees are being told to call it so it
changes from every every given night
they have a webpage and they’re sending
out plays to these referees and tell
them to call these certain things how
big of an impact could you make points
wise per Gil I think that you know we
talked about this at lunch I think
there’s no doubt you know if you know
the tendencies are the referees and you
know what they’re calling that there
could be a difference of two three or
four
if you are aware of not doing what
they’re gonna call you take four points
times 82 games that’s 328 points
something like that that could cost you
like three four five games that could be
eight playoff sixth you know eight spot
ten spot I mean that’s we’re not talking
little numbers here so my follow-up for
you would be this would Adam silver be
okay if I one of these sports owners
hired you as a consultant I think that
there would be a problem I think that
early on I was gonna have a job with one
of the owners and I think that he
basically was told to stop talking to me
yeah that’s my personal opinion I don’t
know for sure but so do you know Frank
having geillis I do so what do you think
about Frank’s story a great story I
remember the movie with the FBI agents
yeah with the money right yeah yes he’s
the guy that had eight different
identities he was a surgeon I think he
was a pilot I one say he was a lawyer
then he would go to the banks and get
checks all these weird things he would
do right and eventually the FBI finally
said what the hell is this guy doing he
went to prison I think for five years
and later on the federal government
hired him because if he knows how this
works man we are gonna be able to catch
everybody else do you know Joseph
Kennedy’s story
he’s the market crash guy on what he did
and I’ve manipulated the stock market I
made all this money would make it go up
make it come down do you know who
finally hired him FDR you know what
position he got here an SEC so think
about the like this is like you’re going
after the biggest market manipulator and
you’re hiring him as a president to
become the guy running SEC he ran it
because he knew what everybody would be
doing and then FDR was able to clean up
the financial industry with the
manipulation was taking place and this
list goes on this isn’t just these two
names there’s you know other names we
can look at so Joe Kennedy Frank at
McGill you know there’s a lot of guys
that come in I think from an outsider
looking in if Joe Kennedy gets hired by
FDR if F beyond the federal government
hires Frank Abigail if you got if you
got these kinds of things going on what
about if Adam silver or somebody came in
and said hey we’re gonna make a call to
this is going to be weird it’s gonna be
strange people didn’t think we’re crazy
but we are hiring
Tim as a consultant and he’s gonna come
in and he’s gonna do XYZ to clean house
and kind of show us stuff that he can
help out in this area what would you
think if you got a weird call from front
office or somebody said listen we would
like to talk to you about possibly
bringing you in but here’s some of the
arrangements would you even entertain
that idea oh absolutely I mean you talk
about you know my love of basketball and
growing up and making it to the NBA I’d
be foolish not to you know want to
entertain that but I don’t think it
would happen with the NBA you know
possibly maybe one of the other sports
leagues I think it would be an
opportunity or maybe you know an
individual team but I just don’t think
the NBA would do that just based on the
black eye and rightfully so that I did
and I put on the league so you know I
wouldn’t be waiting for that phone call
to be honest with you and neither from
the teams I think it’s a possibility one
of the teams in the NBA but I think it
would be something that would not be
publicized that it would be you know
behind closed doors that I could break
down tape and and look at cause I know
there’s been some retired referees that
have done that for you know a lot of the
individual teams just by sitting on with
you and having a conversation like oh my
gosh I mean I would want to know that as
an owner especially if I’m in a smaller
market guy and not even the bigger
market guys because a bigger market guys
they don’t need it they already got the
favoritism going for them right I mean
the NBA wants to in the finals today if
you think about it who does the NBA one
of the finals this year you want Golden
State against who Boston yes nor Philly
that’s who you’re gonna want right do
you know you’re now gonna want so why
not Milwaukee certainly not Milwaukee
right mark yet right you’re not gonna
want Milwaukee because in one way if
Milwaukee wins
giannis is staying do you really want
Gianna staying in that market or do you
want Milwaukee losing and Gianna’s going
to an LA or Gianna’s going to a
different Dallas market you know I don’t
know if I want him to stay over there
but I don’t know I just look at it from
the standpoint of if this is a game of
having edge if Bezos goes out there and
hire some interesting people to give him
an edge former FBI agents you know
former people like that why are you
hiring former agents for what you know
what’s the reason behind that and he
runs a trillion dollar company if I’m
the NBA he
I would notice it I would hate for a
documentary or a movie to be made about
your story so let’s just say somebody
sees this because you know these
interviews sometimes they see it like a
Michael Franzese was on our show we
ended up getting 10 million views
between a couple interviews one was 6.2
and other ones like 2 points and one in
Russian is like a million and an all the
other stuff a any contact that I’m
showing Vegas all this other stuff I
would I found the leak
I am much more excited about hiring you
then allowing somebody from Hollywood to
reach out to you and make a movie about
this like concussion so I think that
movie is gonna hurt the NBA more than
the NBA hiring you and signing a 10-year
contract with you as a consultant to
keep you in as long as XYZ stuff you
agree to that would be my move I need
you as my agent I would make a hell of
an agent but I want a company but that
would be my approach so let’s do a
lightning grant and it will wrap up and
we’ll talk about the book and we’ll send
it off so I’ll give you some names just
tell me where you think about a first
word that comes to mind or whatever
thing you want to say about them okay
first one when you’re best friends in
the world David Stern arrogant okay
LeBron James powerful Ron artists funny
really Michael Jordan the goat Wow Phil
Jackson sarcastic Popovich miserable I
just think he I’ve never met somebody
night in and night out they could be so
miserable
it just it was never a smile or you know
in a good mood it just seemed like it
was no matter what whether it was up 20
or not he just seemed interesting Joey
Crawford that’s a tough one good guy
what was the first three words you
thought about before he said good guy
that’s what I want to know it’s tough
but he you know to be honest with you
he’s he’s a given guy to the community
and he and he really gives back and you
know would take this shirt off his back
for people Danny Crawford talented
Bavetta
shady okay Rasheed Wallace I’m trying to
think on the floor or off the floor but
on the floor nuts Rick Mahorn great guy
Adams
silver different because I really don’t
know him I just know him from what he
does now but I think it’s a different
take on on what David Stern was like so
better or worse would that are much
better I think you know professional
likeable seems to want to just do things
the right way
interesting Jack Nicholson funny funny
okay and then that’s about it those are
the names I have for you well so look if
you thought today’s interview was
interesting we haven’t even gotten into
like 50 stories in here he had an
incident one time with Berkeley in the
locker room with I mean you just have to
see what happened there a couple
incidents with Jordan and Phil Jackson
which was pretty epic and a lot of other
stories if you were MBA guy you want to
hear it from his perspective but you
know one of the things you were talking
about don’t you talk a little bit about
ref picks tell me what this ref picks
website ref picks P I see KS calm right
right so it’s a website for people that
game occasionally obviously hopefully
nobody has a problem we basically guide
them through the pitfalls of you know
traps to stay away from and and I put up
NBA picks based on the referees and the
relationships that exist if you’re you
know into in the bettin on the ball
games there’s a form of entertainment
you know we guide you through you know
how to hopefully be a winner not a loser
ref pics.com well if ESPN magazine was
right 23 out of 30 if you if they were
right but anyways ref pics.com will put
the domain here so here’s what we’re
gonna do this is what I would like you
to do if you’re watching this interview
are still intrigued by the end of you
that we have if there is anybody now we
talked about in the interview that you
took away and you said wow this person
has to see this interview tag Tim and I
Tim’s handles right here Tim Donaghey –
on Twitter and I’m Patrick that David
sent a tweet on Twitter the first three
people that say here’s what I took away
and such and such person in the NBA has
to watch this you do that we’ll send
three signed copies to the first three
people that send a tweet if you’re the
one the first three you’ll get a signed
copy from Tim Donaghy being sent over to
you with that being said Tim thank you
so much for coming out here and being
again somebody Jana truly really enjoyed
it thank you okay
Tim obvious um you gotta move a gimbal
give me a chance together and okay so
we’re the Lakers Philly you got more in
a second Hawkins what a year
what a year and I got Vlada and worthy
here we go at the only request I have
for you jump before we start the game as
you please don’t fix this game and get
the referees on the other side hoping
you’re okay you’re gonna play one
quarter you give me a break because it’s
home time I appreciate that I got the odds to us
rep do you remember that I do
Reggie Miller makes a move and I called
an offensive foul the place went nuts
game couldn’t be played for about 20
minutes who were some of the toughest
guys to ref because they talked so much
smack to you he waited for me out in the
parking lot and jumped out from behind a
pole and literally wanted to fistfight
me you’re saying you didn’t fix the game
they’re saying you fixed the game they
did different things to plant seeds in
the NBA office in the referees mind if
they felt that their star player wasn’t
getting the treatment that they deserved
Mark Cuban really started to go
overboard with that and bombard the
league office with situations where he
felt his team was getting screwed you
also say that most referees gambled this
is a crazy idea they were making
millions of dollars on it and that he
needed to continue to get those plays
and if not you know you just want to
exposed me to the NBA or have somebody
visit my wife or kids in Florida flood
out
[Music]
so today we have another interesting
guest with us me as a big sports fan I
always followed you know basketball
baseball in and sometime when you got
the referees that affect the game you
get pissed off when a referee makes a
good call or a bad call and you wonder
if there’s something going on here so
today we have Tim Donaghy let me tell
you a little bit about Tim Donna his
background he reffed from 1994 207 which
is a very interesting 13-year career
because during that time he reffed with
MJ speak
Kobe speak LeBron speak Shaq a lot of
other names so we’re gonna get into a
lot of those personalities but also
there was a part where from Oh three two
oh seven he was gambling Wow referee and
which ended up costing him his job and
at 15 months in prison and he wrote a
book we’ll talk about very very
interesting stories that if you’re a
sports fan or somebody that even is in
that world you’re definitely gonna be
blown away by some of the stories that
yeah so with that being said Tim Donaghy
thanks for being already taemin thanks
for having me yeah it’s a we had an
interesting lunch earlier those
conversations were good so I wish some
of the good some of it was recorded but
I’m sure we’re gonna touch up on some of
the stories so Tim before we get into
the whole story the first question I
want to know when I go back and I call
people around who went to school with
you I found a few guys I went to school
with you who knew you when you were 16
17 18 I asked him I said how was how was
he in school you know and they told me
what they thought how you were in school
but I want to ask you how were you in
high school if I went to high school
with you who was Tim definitely the
class clown you know I like to push the
envelope a little bit and have a lot of
fun so definitely the guy that was
trying to make everybody laugh were you
a chippy guy were you always a
competitive guy were you always like
were you from a family that you had high
expectations where was that coming from
definitely probably overly competitive
even today when when I do something with
the kids you know you know talk about
having four or four daughters you know
whatever it is if we’re playing a game
of cards you know I want to win so yeah
overly competitive you know at every
aspect of you
you play to win that’s the way I grew up
did you play all sports or was it mainly
basketball mainly basketball baseball a
little bit of football when I was
younger but the main thing that I enjoy
the most of basketball and you pretty
competitive basketball player I mean
like you you you played you actually
know how to play the game yeah
definitely I mean like I said when when
I got involved in doing something
competitive it wasn’t something where
you know second place was an option you
played to win and win at all cost
is that a standard that was set by pops
or mom was that like a family standard
like you better compete I think it’s
just a standard growing up with you know
four brothers everybody was competitive
in the area that I grew up in you just
played the win there was no way that you
know anyone wanted to come in second
place way if you went home and second
place you better go home with a bunch of
blood on you I have read some word that
you had a one time you came home and he
had a third place trophy or second place
trophy you pulled on the one you threw
it out because you don’t want to show
your day you were second or third place
is that right right over the Walt
Whitman Bridge you know roll the window
down threw it right in the water
literally absolutely and you remember
this oh sure because you know I had
older brothers that you know had
trophies you know we all line I’m up on
the heaters in the bedroom and you know
nobody had a second-place trophy it
wasn’t like it is today where everybody
gets a participation trophy you know it
was a first-place trophy or nothing so
you definitely didn’t want to walk in my
house with that is that competitiveness
like the part I’m trying I got three
kids myself so I’m just curious to know
was it was it driven by somebody meaning
was it just because you had four
brothers you know four of you and
obviously that’s a competitive
environment period but you’re in Philly
which is a very competitive sports city
all sports is competitive and the
culture in Philadelphia especially where
you grew up at so was your dad expecting
all of you guys to perform at a high
level or no it was purely just a
brother’s no no absolutely I mean my dad
you know had high expectations for all
of us and whatever we got involved in
even today you know when I gotten in all
my trouble yeah we’d have conversation
I’ll be like I don’t know what I’m gonna
do with my life and he said you know I
don’t care if you have to dig ditches
for a life just be the best ditch digger
you can bake he would tell you that
absolutely really so even when you went
through it he still kept the same
mindset with you yes yes Wow
it was you guy that he felt bad for you
for
go on throw it or no he just said man up
take the responsibility like what
approach did he take with you I think
deep down he probably felt bad but now
definitely man up you got yourself into
this you’re gonna have to get yourself
out of it you have four daughters and
you know dig deep and do what you have
to do interesting so how does one go
about becoming a referee in DMV I mean
obviously you don’t have a lot of
referees like this isn’t an option where
you’ve got 200 reps ref in a game it’s
typically the same faces for decade two
decades some even 30 years of refereeing
right or more so how does well become a
referee you know I was fortunate that
the area I was from was a hotbed for
referees or there was college referees
or even NBA referees we had Joe
Crawford’s we had Tom wash and Steve
Joffe so you know we had a lot of people
that you know came from our area so you
know was that though what why why from
there I think what happened was is
people saw and these people were
accessible in the community and you
thought to yourself wow if he did it I
could probably do it because I guess I’m
asking a question you went to school
same school that what ed Malloy Crawford
went to Joe Crawford Crawford or Louie
Malloy
Mike Callahan I mean that’s a so you
know how I say Silicon Valley all the
technology companies come out of Y
refereeing they’re dumbing there’s
reffering going on everywhere it’s one
guy made it and he started making money
so people followed his footsteps what
was the reasoning for that I think you
know Crawford was a big guy in our area
he was accessible in the community it’s
not like you know he was some felt like
he was somebody special he gave you back
to the younger referees and would go to
a park where you were roughing uh you
know a men’s league game and he’d show
up and he’d start giving you pointers so
he passed it down to a lot of people in
that area and it was great basketball in
the Philadelphia area so you were always
refereeing you know the good athletes oh
you learned a lot quicker than maybe
somebody that was referee and somewhere
else so you got use of the bigger guys
and the hard play and when you got in
front of those people that you were
looking to impress you were ready for so
what was your break I mean I know you
went to Villanova first school yourself
right and then you were refereeing some
college games but when was your break
when
you all of us and got the offer to go
into the MBA know what happened for me
was I was lucky because my father was a
Final Four official did the Final Four
for several years so my last name was
recognized in the officiating community
so when I started to do it I I got a lot
of breaks probably a lot sooner than a
lot of other people did so it was a
training process and training program
and you know I told her very seriously
and I was fortunate that uh you know I
made it to the NBA what was your first
game first game you Ref do you remember
that I do I do it was in Indiana and
they were playing Houston Indiana will
be Reggie Miller allows you on eras it’s
a good area
Larry Brown coaching tough coach
thousand wins yeah yeah and at the end
of the game
Reggie Miller makes a move and he’s
always trying to draw contact and jumped
into somebody and I called an offensive
foul
that took a lot of guts
and boy look at the debris come out on
the court and the place went nuts threw
stuff on the on the court game couldn’t
be played for about twenty minutes and
that was my first game and you know how
you you always go back to your hotel
room and you watch SportsCenter down in
that there’s my picture and it was funny
because I I don’t know who did it nobody
would admit it but you know I had
football helmet sent to my house and
well the other referees you know saying
you’re probably gonna need this for the
rest of your career so that was that was
my first game and it was it was
something I always remember what was
that reaction your dad being a referee
that he called you saying what are you
doing that was a good call was that with
what did you you well I’m never for it
Darell Garretson was at the game and as
we walked off the floor and went into
the locker room he said we’re gonna find
out real quick if you’re gonna make it
in this league because that Kohl better
be right and he backed me up and
supported me and so did rod thorn but
the call looking back probably would
have been the easier call to make would
have been just to put Reggie through
lined it was one of those things that
could have went either way but you know
I called the offensive foul what did you
dad tell you did he tell you anything
when he saw you on ESPN or no no I mean
my dad would watch the games and you
know give me pointers here in an era but
the college game was really much
different than the NBA game it wasn’t
you know in college refereed the rules
as they were written in the rule book
and the NBA you ever read personalities
and memes on the front in the back of
the Jersey so Wow it was it was a
different game interesting complete
different game yes you actually were one
of the three referees of the night when
the Pacers against the Pistons fight
took place right what happened I mean
obviously everybody knows what happened
with Ben Wallace and run our tests but
how did he get crazy all of a sudden I
think I said to stop the entire game and
send everybody home yeah it was just bad
blood I think from previous games and
the game was pretty much decided and
over and during the dead-ball after a
free throw you know they start pushing
each other and the next thing you know
we’re trying to straighten things out
and our test goes over and sits by the
table on somebody you know throws a beer
on them and then all hell breaks loose
so yes standing in the middle of that
with with chairs flying and
you know a Jermaine O’Neal squared up
with a guy and punched him and if there
wasn’t so much water and beer on the
floor
he lost his back foot now you didn’t
lose his back foot I think that kid
would be dead because you know there’s a
guy with a lot of power just punching
somebody as hard as you could so it was
definitely scary what what made it get
to the point we’d like we have to call
the game we have to send what-what was a
tipping point there was just too many
fights going on in the stands the floor
was completely soaked with things who
called the shots to say the game is cold
Ron Garretson who was the crew chief at
that time said that there’s no way we
can play this game we got to get out of
here someone’s gonna get seriously hurt
and you know everything was just flying
all over the place so we just ran for
cover when’s the last time that ever
happened to you I don’t think it ever
happened I don’t think I was recent how
many times is a gay man called I don’t
think that’s I mean in baseball games
called give call for rain right but you
get a game called for this yeah that was
definitely scary
Plus Rasheed was on the floor I was
obviously Ben’s a big boy our test is a
big but all the tough guys were all out
yeah I grabbed Ron Artest by the Jersey
and he drugged me like I was just an ant
right up into the stand so it was like I
wasn’t even on his back Shh yeah it cost
him how many games 68 games yeah that
the rest of the year
and then Steven Jackson said something
like that game cost him three point
eight million dollars some big number
with the fights that broke out in the
stands but I think the last time I saw
something like that take place was in 96
95 season when Vernon Maxwell ran up 16
rows and already pulled them back I
don’t know if you remember that game or
not I this I do yeah this was a long
time ago I’m like what is Vernon Maxwell
doing or we told him I said listen we
got to get out here I had never seen it
that bad would fan right it was an
interesting one okay so as you’re going
through and you’re reffing and you’re
doing what you’re doing all these
different personalities who were some of
the toughest guys to ref because they
talked so much smack to you you know you
got to go back to Gary Payton you know
Reggie Miller was tough at times because
he always was trying to draw contact you
didn’t know if he was causing it or if
the defender was calling
Karam alone and of course you know
Rasheed Wallace was one of those guys
that you know was always bickering back
and forth with the referees I guess the
question I would ask is you know the the
the level of difficulty on you because
you watch the games and you see who
talks a lot to the refs and who doesn’t
right
who talked a lot to you that brought so
much pressure to you meaning you’re
playing a game you know today you’re
gonna be facing off with Kobe Jordan
Shaq Malone allows you on all these big
personalities who did you know was
demanding to never miss a call on him
out of everybody
Rachid because even if you know you were
right sometimes he’d tell you you were
wrong so he was one of the toughest guys
to referee because it was just
relentless no matter what you you knew
it was going to be a headache the entire
48 minutes the other story would Wallace
yeah I’ve read about it in the in the
book about you know he’s got 25 points
and they win by 30 and at the end of the
game he takes the ball and you know was
upset with a call and bounced it the
other referee who was walking away and
hit him in the back and I called a
technical foul on him and he really
didn’t say much at that point but you
know he was he was really upset me he
waited for me out in the parking lot and
you waited for Unipart them yeah jumped
out from behind a pole and literally
wanted to fistfight me so took about ten
people to hold him back but he really
want to kill me like to the point of
wanting to really hit you yet squared up
fist in the air you know I’m gonna kick
your ass and son of a bitch type you
know what was your reaction my reaction
was is this staying there and act like I
wasn’t scared but I was definitely
terrified
yeah he’s what he’s 611 he’s he’s 11
long lanky and I’m sure he’s been in a
couple scraps in his day I’m sure he has
yeah he would lead the league in
technical fouls I think every year 17 21
16 grew up in Philadelphia himself he’s
also Philly guy I didn’t know that yeah
how did I grow up there so so you you
reffed
for mike right when he was at his peak
and you reffed with kobe right who was
more demanding you know I think with the
referees that they they came at you two
different ways I think Michael came at
you in a way that was you know more
professional he would let you know that
you know
you olam one or he felt like you missed
a call how would he do that to you
verbally or he’d come up to you to edit
you know dead ball or you know what a
free-throw and come over T and just you
know whisper to you or you know let you
know you know I got hit down there
what’s going on why aren’t you making
this call tonight and then plant the
seed in your mind that you know when he
goes to the basket he misses a shot you
know it’s not because he missed a shot
it’s because he was fouled would he
berates you and belittle you or nosiness
now he was never really like deca he was
you know pretty professional when he
went after the referee interesting how
about Kobe Kobe you know he was a little
more adamant a little bit more cocky
about it a little bit with the aspect
I’m deserving of it he knew he was the
best player in the game at that time and
you know he wanted that treatment that
that Jordan got for so many years and he
lets you know when he felt he wasn’t
getting it did he end up getting his
ways or oh absolutely I never forget
that you know there was a game and and
this is one of the games where I pass
information along the people I shouldn’t
have but Phil Jackson send a tape in to
the league office and one of the group
supervisors came in and told the
referees that
they sent a tape and it said you know
here’s 25 plays in the last three games
that Kobe was fouled on and the referees
missed the call they did different
things to plant seeds in the NBA office
in the referees mind you know if they
felt that their star player wasn’t
getting the treatment that they deserved
how often does that happen is that
pretty common very common coaches and
owners to send videos into home office
for you guys to see not for the referees
to support offices and then hopefully
it’s going to be passed down I don’t
think the league office wanted it passed
down in the manner that it was passed
down to us you know before a game like
that but you know that’s planting a seed
and in our heads to make sure we don’t
miss a play going to the basket with
Kobe and I knew that you know he was
probably going to go to the line 20
times that night and and probably have
30 points is that protocol is a typical
protocol like it’s not frowned upon if
I’m field if I’m Popovich if I’m Riley
if I’m whoever and I’m not happy about
the way the game was wrapped and I take
these three plays and I record them and
I’m moderated and I send it and that’s
very much protocol
yeah that’s done all the time that’s
done all the playoffs did anybody do
more than others I think yeah I think
mark
you been really started there go
overboard with that and and bombard the
league office with plays and and
situations where he felt his team was
getting screwed I noticed one thing you
said about mark is that most of the time
his complaints he was right so he wasn’t
just a business guy that didn’t know the
game and he wasn’t savvy he actually was
a business guy who understood the game
and when he would get upset about a
missed call most of the time he was
right is that what your experience was
with him definitely I mean I I
personally I liked them I would always
say hi though most of the referees hated
his guts because they felt that our job
was made harder because of all the
complaints that he did which made us
have to break more tape down and file
more reports based on the fact that they
wanted us to monitor you know our calls
more and it was because he was sending
stuff into the league office and he was
asking you know why don’t the referees
do this where’s the break down from the
referees on what’s a correct call and
what’s an incorrect call was there was
there a trend with what he wasn’t happy
with or no was there like a specific
series of three things this travel you
didn’t call or this offense if I you
don’t call you are we gonna call the
kicks with Miller is there any Trent yet
what things he wasn’t happy with Mark’s
biggest gripe was and he was 100% right
is that there’s so much subjectivity and
the rules weren’t being reinforced as
they were ridding in the rulebook so god
you know and personalities came into
play so one day one night somebody may
call you know roughhouse play in the
posts again the next google come in and
they’re gonna let it go he wanted more
of a consistent whistle from the group
of referees rather than having different
crews officiate different ways I
remember one time I read somewhere
saying that they asked David Stern what
is the ideal
finals look like and he said Lakers
versus the Lakers right he was a big
record guy I’ll do later on Kiana
stopped the Chris Paul trade for Pau
Gasol that one year if you remember what
happened with that year was there a
feeling of the Commissioner favors two
or three teams and the rest of us are
just owners you’re not following the
rulebook is that word of frustration was
coming from yeah I think so like you
said when he when he makes a comment
that the the best ratings would be the
Lakers versus the Lakers the referees
see that
and the referees are paid based on
advancement from the first round to the
second round the third round to the
finals and they know that you’re being
graded on certain things so you know
that that it would say he was the NBA’s
go-to guy he was put on games sixes – to
make game sevens and he said that said
that several times and a lot of times he
was you know on a game six that helped
the Lakers advance to a game seven or
you know it was a situation where
Portland should have won a series the
Lakers won because of a lot of the calls
that he made the famous Sacramento Game
six where you know things happen at the
end of the game that just seemed
flat-out backwards
the lady with commercial
[Music]
what is happening here
and here’s Christiana pow
[Music]
this innovation try to gather themselves
that game 7 in Sacramento his mindset
was it’s another game it’s it’s a lot
more revenue and game sevens are great
for the league and let the game 7 that
the best team went of course la goes
into Sacramento and upsets them that’s a
year that you know Sacramento probably
should have a ring on I clearly remember
this I remember right was that every
game I watch I could tell you exactly
where I was at who was reffing Game six
I know you were who else was in that
game
now that’s a bit of misconception it was
Bob Delaney Ted Bernhardt and dick
Bavetta were refereeing that game six so
I think people get Delaney and Donaghy
confused a little bit and that’s the
game we’re in the fourth quarter I think
Lakers shot 27 free throws versus you
know the Kings shot 10 free throws or
749 I wanted to be exact and Lake we
shot 27 which is insane
to shoot 27 free throws in a fourth
quarter and you see the whole play that
happens with from the Chris Webber
offensive foul you know which one I’m
talking about he turns they call the
offensive foul and in a series of fouls
that made no sense absolutely made no
sense and then they lose the game so
when when that happens how much of that
is association coming down saying we
need a seven for the Lakers to go to
game seven verses and Nets Kings I’d
rather have Lakers nets than have you
know the Kings how much is it from the
Association and how much is it just pure
business well nobody really ever comes
down and says you know fix this game or
we need the Laker for ratings but what
they do is they’ll show you plays that
happened early on in the series and show
you things to concentrate on it might be
a player in the post is to physical and
maybe travel on before he makes his move
and they’ll show you these plays and
they were always for the team that was
down in the series to benefit them so
they’d show you 10 plays and eight of
them we’re gonna help the team that was
down in the series and they throw to win
just to not make it so obvious did the
same refs rough Game seven or no no is
that a protocol what happens in when
you’re in the playoffs you’re ruffery
Game one uh-huh and maybe a game four or
a game seven so there’s your never gonna
ref you know the whole series or you’re
gonna be left out a couple games before
but there’s an incentive for des to go
Game seven so I can get another game
right do
absolutely more is it you get paid
pretty game around but we always helped
all the games went seven games because
it was more assignments for the referees
so the more games you guys make more
money the more games it is right you’ll
get paid per round but there’s extra
bonus money for the airlines you know
you you flew like twenty five hundred
three thousand dollars for an airline
ticket and yet you’re flying on a free
table that’s maybe that’s it that’s an
issue maybe maybe the comp is structured
in a way for me to have an incentive to
drag the series versus not emotionally
being connected with it on my pocket so
I’m not tempted to do something do you
think sometimes the way the comp
structure is built for refs you are
sitting here roughing these guys that
are making twenty thirty forty million
year you’re making two seventy five of
you’re like wait a minute this is
insanity I’m on the same floor as you I
know I’m on time the ref but I’m only
making this much money do you think
sometimes that leads to a little bit of
a temptation or no I think it does I
think we were paid very well so you know
the salary was good and so was the you
know extra benefits of the airline money
and the per diem money so the top
referees were making you know well over
$400,000 a year when you when you talk
about refereeing in to the NBA Finals
what is it today’s at the same number or
I don’t know if it’s it’s you know going
up from there or not but I’m sure it’s
got to be you know somewhat the same or
even better 400,000 interesting to be
making four hundred thousand so Bavetta
was reffing that game Kings Lakers now
I’m a die-hard Laker fan so I’m kind of
glad the way turned out because you know
that was a three-peat year for them but
still I want a real game I want proper
officiating as a fan cuz you want to
know who’s really winning you don’t want
to see somebody else have an influence
didn’t Danny Crawford go to MJ’s camp
the flight school that we he had and
they spoke about Bavetta what what
happened there because it seems like
Jordan had some issues with Bavetta as
well or was it Bavetta was at a
different referee was Bavetta I think
you know what happens is is every
referee has players they like and
dislike and every player you know when
they walk out onto the floor looks at
the referees and knows whether they’re
gonna get the benefit of a whistle or
not and Jordan felt that he didn’t get
the benefit from Bavetta at times so you
know he talked about it with Danny
Crawford who was
working his summer basketball camera
getting money so where a veteran may not
be given Jordan the benefit of the calls
I can guarantee it
Danny Crawford was because he was
working that summer basketball camp
getting paid got it just like when
bennett salvator had Jordan sneakers in
his restaurant old her left up on the
wall I can guarantee you that you know
he got the benefit of the calls when
Salvatore was on the floor so every
referee very interesting yeah every
referee had their you know likes and
dislikes you know with with a player and
a coach so the way I see when I look at
it from the outside is just like some of
these companies nowadays have lobbyists
you know you see Amazon moving a part of
their headquarters close to DC and being
right next to you know Virginia because
that’s where the politicians and the
lawmakers are was there a lot of that
going out with players and refs as well
like listen we got a win this ref over
we got to win that ref over was there’s
some that played that strategy a lot or
was it an asshole in rule you know
relationships both positive and negative
existed and in the NBA with the referees
and the players referees and the coaches
and the referees and owners Joe Crawford
for example hated Cuban you know I read
a story in the book about him turning to
Mark Cuban and literally putting his
hands down his pants and playing with
his junk you know and taunting Cuban he
did it you know many times you’re
serious yeah to the point where Cuban
had a camera focus on Crawford and sent
the tape into the league office
believable the top guys hated mark
because they felt like he changed the
structure of what we needed to do after
the game with breaking down tape and
what Danny and Joey friends buddies so
they are buddies oh yeah
so who Joey doesn’t like Danny doesn’t
like that they were so enthused that if
you were bad with one you were bad with
the other for the most part they were
very good friends and and the bottom
line is a lot of people like I said
didn’t like mark because of the fact
that they felt he added to our workload
you know a lot of guys like to go out to
the bars after the game and huh and do
with their thing you know when Mark came
in it was after the game we were in of
the locker room or a hotel room for two
hours breaking down the tape and sending
reports in let me ask you so you know in
the business world you know a lot of
companies run their priorities and
different
for instance there are some companies in
Silicon Valley that number one is
engineer you don’t mess with engineers
you give them whatever they want spa
treatment good treatment leave them
alone they’re gonna have attitude
sometimes they’re gonna be pissed off
sometimes do not mess with our best
engineers right when you look at the MBA
at the top what is the level of priority
who they’re loyal to if you have owners
if you have players if you have fans if
you have referees if you have executives
if mark is complaining to the
Association about Joey and Danny from my
standpoint I’m like wait a minute he’s
one year or thirty owners you know
that’s a priority how did the
association treat the most important
client at the table they bow down to him
I mean the referees were necessarily
evil if they could have these games
played without the associations so you
guys as evil absolutely there was always
how come you guys never got fired though
you know at times they did let some
referees go get fired any big names that
got fired never a big game that got
fired it was always you know recently
that you know they paid Eli row 350
grand to kind of walk away from the game
is he a top ten rough in the game no no
never anyone like that well that’s what
I’m talking about I mean what Joey did
that was pathetic that’s everyone
thought he wasn’t coming back and you
know he ended up coming back and
everybody joked around that you know he
had pictures with David Stern with farm
animals somewhere because they couldn’t
understand the fact that David Stern
brought him back again after this being
another serious problem that he had on
the floor after you know warning after
warning after warning and they still
brought him back so who is their
priority who is the NBA’s priority to
protect first okay players first
absolutely that’s the product so that’s
the product so number one is players who
would you say Stu fans or NBA owners I
think it would be the players the the
owners and then the fans I mean you
should you saw recently Westbrook in
Utah you saw $25,000 and those the fans
got permanently banned why is that fan
being permanently banned at the fainting
curse what did that fan do that you’re
gonna permanently ban him same with the
with Dolan in New York
the guy said sell the team and now he’s
not allowed back then to watch it he
think about that I think it’s it’s
terrible III you’re there to have fun
scream and cheer whether it’s positive
or negative I just I found it was absurd
that they said that these fans couldn’t
come back you think that decision is
made with front-office meaning that
Utah’s owner call front office and say
what should we do in the NBA said Adam
said you better permanently banned a fan
from the game or do you think it’s the
team that made the decision without the
enforcement of the Association I think
it’s the team that makes those
interesting guys so it’s left to Utah to
make that decision I just kind of like
how the government is ran you leave the
states to run it the way they want
federal makes a decision and the states
make the decisions the way I want
interesting and you don’t agree that was
the right decision what I don’t I mean I
could see if somebody screamed or cursed
or said something you know offensive
with with kids and women around but to
me they just you know they voiced an
opinion I don’t understand why you know
that was such a did you hear what
Westbrook said that they said to him
well III believe if that wasn’t the case
because they interviewed the guy and
they had the tape don’t they have enough
audio to be able to hear what the
and said I mean you should be able to
hear all this stuff it’s not like you
can’t investigate that and figure out
what the fans were saying you’d be
shocked but my 20 people are on to
interview and they have cameras up in
the scoreboard yeah they can roll back
things and if somebody throws something
from from a seat they can zero in if in
doubt who threw it so there’s cameras in
audio everywhere so I would think that
they could definitely determine on what
was said so so when it comes down to a
Danny Crawford Joey Crawford and an
owner like Cuban what control do owners
have to say who gets to ref nothing
right it’s all Association assigning who
refs what game and the owners have no
say the refs any supposedly they have no
say but you know there was two guys that
were released a couple of years ago
Kevin fair and Phil Robinson and you
know supposedly Mark Cuban had a lot to
do with that they were in the league 15
16 17 years weren’t refereeing in the
playoffs and you know he voiced his
opinion why are we paying somebody so
much money when he’s not a they’re not
town enough to be a so they ended up
getting rid of him I’m sorry I mean if I
am Adam silver or David Stern who would
you say in the NBA is as involved as an
on the Mavs since what I don’t know 92
93 9 I don’t know the exactly I want to
say 92 I think when he bought him give
or take when he bought the maps so after
he purchases the Mavs
how many NBA owners do you think have
attended their teen games as many as
Mark Cuban has how many NBA owners I
don’t think anybody know but I think
they started to because once he started
to it but that’s my point what I’m
trying to say is if I’m the Association
I want more Cuban owners I want owners
that are as involved as Sam I don’t want
a Dolan I want a Cuban because he cares
he’s under he’s in it that’s why he’s
involved emotionally to it and so a Mark
Cuban believe it or not
recruits more guys like me to one they
want to own a team where Dolan doesn’t
Mark Cuban’s a guy that says you know
what hey one day I’d like to own a team
like Mark a one day I’d like to own a
team like maybe Mark said one day I want
to be as a great owner as Jerry Buss
because Jay
bus was the best owner in the history
MBA 33 seasons you win ten championships
10 out of 10 out of 30 that’s a pretty
solid run rate you have a now your
daughter’s running it may be a different
story with Jim and Jeanne but yeah when
I see that I’m like maybe maybe you
ought to listen when a couple these
referees so do you think refs should get
fired if you notice a trend that they’re
taking sides like do you think refs
ought to be fired and not be protected
by Union even the best ones you know I
think a ref should be fired if his
percentages are low and and they’re
tracking every call every referee makes
and they’re saying that you know every
referee has a percentage attached to
their name yeah so they should get rid
of the bottom 5% every year and bring in
somebody else because the rules are
clear-cut there in black and white they
give you tape they show you what the
call and they and they put it out there
for you and if you’re not making you’re
not doing the job or if you have a sales
rep that’s not selling the product how
long are you gonna keep that you know
sales rep you’re gonna get rid of them
and that’s what they should do with the
referees if they’re not doing their job
they should be released yeah I mean if
you want me to compete in a marketplace
and you’re doing it based on a rule book
we’re gonna enforce the rule book right
the part that gets frustrating is when
you have an edge over me because you got
seven referees that are on your side and
they’re manipulating the game to control
the game and they hate me because I’m a
vocal owner because I show up and I care
about my business and you’re gonna throw
me under the bus like a Joey Crawford
one out of fifteen Joey where Danny I
think it’s Danny’s doing right one out
of fifteen playoffs right maddis record
I don’t know it turns me off as an owner
knowing I because whoever buys a sports
team has gone through capitalism period
or somebody in their family made the
money like dole and his family made the
money he got the money but they they
have gone through the marketplace and in
a marketplace you play with the rules
and when you play with the rules if the
rules are not fair you’re gonna compete
you have to figure out what you can do
and pivot and all this other stuff so
when you go into a league that there’s
additional games and manipulation it’s a
little bit frustrating for an owner so I
can understand we’re into it and you
want to get the best coach you want to
get the best GM to build your team based
on the rules on how they’re written in
the rule walking and that at times
decision isn’t something that’s
happening how many times you see coaches
being fired after having one
bad season – bad season they’re gone
first person you fire is who the coach
it’s an easy person to blame this guy
stuck with Carlisle for how many years
now a long time right a long time and
there’s been some times where he could
have made the decision because everybody
said he should get rid of him change it
up bring somebody else and you kind of
see the discipline of the fact that he
sticks with people he’s a great owner
anyway that’s a complete different
conversation you know when did it happen
for you the whole story of you all of a
sudden saying look there’s a gambling
opportunity here what was that process
when you got introduced to the sheep but
teesta and maybe walk us through that
part you know what happened was is I
love the golf so I’m golfing at Country
Club starting to play in big money golf
matches after golf matches jumping in
the car and heading to a casino sitting
at a blackjack table the excitement’s
there with all your buddies from the
from the Country Club and and I just
became a situation for me where I loved
it I was playing cards in my basement I
had a big poker table in the basement
and and every day in my life I was you
know golfing I was playing cards I was
betting on games college football
college basketball and it just escalated
to you know my one body having the
Philadelphia Daily News with them asked
me to pick a couple games for him in the
NBA I had just come from home and I
looked at the the referee list of who
was refereeing the games I saw a couple
of the guys somewhere maybe it was a you
know an example that you were using the
Danny Crawford had a problem with with
the Mavs and and I rattle off three
games to him real quick based on who was
refereeing and I went three now and he
calls me up the next day and goes man is
it that easy and and I was like yeah and
not thinking really much about it and
then it just kind of snowballed we
started betting on NBA games and then
you know when things happen like the
thing with Kobe Bryant and I knew he was
going to start going to the line because
they were complaining with the league
office and the referees were being told
that these plays were being messed that
you know I started to pass along
information like that to him when I was
officiating some of the games so you
know I got up to a line and then I just
jumped over and I shouldn’t have been
doing it and when you did was it the
moment did you know like the
point-of-no-return like you knew it was
like I am too deep was it the first time
we’re like I’m too deep or no you didn’t
think you were too deep no I didn’t
think I was too deep then it got to the
point where you know I was doing it and
I said to my buddy you know listen we
gotta stop this this isn’t right and we
stopped then we just float it back into
doing it and then we stopped for good
and what I didn’t know was that this guy
was passing this information along to
the Sheep and to another guy that was
associated with big gamblers and they
were making millions of dollars on these
games so when we stopped doing it and
the Sheep and all his people weren’t
getting the plays anymore I went into
Philadelphia for a game and Tommy
Martino who was a high school buddy of
mine you know called me up and said hey
listen you I’m gonna come down and see
you and you know they came down and they
picked me up and in the car was was
James Bautista and he told me that you
know he was getting a please for you
know years from Jack and Kahneman and
they were making millions of dollars on
it and that he needed to get continue to
get those plays and if not you know he
was going to expose me to the NBA or
have somebody visit my wife or kids in
Florida and it was flat out flat out so
it was something that you know we set it
up and I was to give Martino the place a
Martino relayed them to Batista and they
were making millions of dollars and it
was heard over at Gambino wiretap how
did you feel in that moment when that
statement was made like what was your
immediate reaction or was there an
immediate I’m sure I’m startled sick
because you know I’m screwed
I can’t all of a sudden call somebody up
and say hey listen this is what I’ve
been doing for the last three years can
you just let me go and I won’t do it
anymore and keep my job I knew I was
screwed either either way I was done I
was hoping at the end of the basketball
season after giving them the picks that
it was going to be over and we were
never going to do it again but you know
I was highly mistaken they were never
gonna you know as a the FBI agency
released a golden goose you’re you know
putting too many you know dollars in
their pockets for them to just stop so
now this continuous post that statement
for how long so he makes that statement
to you if you don’t continue right
believe it was December 22nd and it went
on for the next three or four months to
where they were really banging the games
and the lines were going from ten points
up to fourteen or fifteen points because
they were just betting millions and
millions of dollars on it and and the
FBI agent said normally they wouldn’t
touch a gambling case but it was putting
so much money into the coffers of you
know the crime families that you know
that’s why they got involved this is a
documented or off the meaning is it
bookies or is it a you know online you
know gambling Vegas type of stuff how
were they doing it for not to be tracked
or to be tracked I think they were doing
it everywhere I think Batista was so
strung out on drugs and you know oh it
so many people so much money that he was
getting down whoever would take his
action so I think that they were doing
it everywhere even documented yeah it
doesn’t matter if it was Vegas book
nines I’m going through everybody and
and the word on the street now is is
that the people actually in Vegas you
know knew that was going on and they
were piggybacking on the bets also so
the red flags were going up but they
were just ignoring them on purpose
because they were they were also making
money had he already dropped your name
were he had credibility with the bets he
was making or no no not at that point I
think that you know was you know want to
keep it a secret not expose it and
maximize it to the to the best that you
could do I think is he got more strung
out on drugs and he started losing money
betting on other things the word out nel
is that you know he lost seven million
dollars of people’s money and they were
coming after him and he said well well
wait a minute
you know I got a Golden Goose and his
name’s Tim Donaghy so then I thought I’m
going to get you your money back just be
patient got it
what was the biggest bet they were they
were making that you know the numbers
were they telling you or not really no
they weren’t telling me but you know the
the the agent said they were betting
millions of dollars a game what were you
making purr purr purr victory I was
getting $2,000 a game that won per cash
and when it was happening will you’re
like oh my gosh this is an additional
source of income I mean I can really
double down with this sure because you
know I I always like to have a big wad
of money in my pocket to hit the casinos
to golf with
you know standing over a party you know
sometimes we were betting $500,000 he’s
gonna make that putt I mean it was just
out of control but I loved it I loved
the excitement of it so what role did
jack play that was was Jack pre the
Sheep or was he post no Jack was pre the
Sheep and Jack was just my my good buddy
great guy and well he was what six five
you actually he played or something I’d
say Joe’s a great athlete and you know a
super guy and you know great family guy
and you know it just was a situation
where you know he was to put the bets in
and keep my name out of it but what was
happening is you know the guy that he
was putting the bets in was you know
taking that information and knowing that
we were buddies and and using that
information and passing along to people
got it was the last time you spoke to
Jimmy Jimmy Bautista yeah he owes me
money for restitution that I paid so
from time to time I have to send him a
text message that says you know where’s
the check seriously yeah and so you got
there’s a relationship it’s somewhat of
a relationship or you know an email that
I’ll have to send to his attorney in him
you know he’s not a you know a friend of
mine in any way shape or form but due to
the fact that he you know owes me that
money there’s some you know conversation
from what is this story about Sh’ma guy
you guys you guys used this phrase
shemagh alike a kid from school and what
was that all about the code yeah
Schumacher was you know there was a kid
from Holy Cross that was mentally and
physically handicapped and the Martino
family Tommy you know really cared for
this kid he really didn’t have any
family members and they took him in as
if he was you know their own son for
years and we all met him we all hung out
with them we take him out to eat and he
was just kind of a part of our family so
to speak you know and you know the
Martino’s were you know gracious and
everything that they they did for that
kid and we we said that when we needed a
name for a game where it was just a you
know can’t lose situation and I think
Tommy said you know well let’s call –
mother
because that was Joey’s nicknames maava
so that’s that’s what that was then men
double or triple the bet they or
anything you could yeah and what would I
based on what I hear about Tommy Tommy
was Tommy was what five four but he was
great with the ladies people liked them
they respected him he was strong he
didn’t pissed off if he heard you say
he’s five five he’s five my apologies
he taught me I heard good things for
what I’ve heard from what people said
about you he was a good-looking kid
a very likable kid you know and and he
walked like he’s seven feet tall I love
them he was funny as could be I think we
talked about it earlier is his cousin
Paulie Martino a venture capitalist has
a lot of money you know is he’s doing a
film based on his life called inside
game and I think it’s I haven’t seen it
yeah I’m gonna see it next week but I
think it’s like a cross between good
fellows and The Hangover so get a it’s
so they’re gonna highlight the part
about referee and as well I think
they’re definitely gonna touch on that
but I think it’s mostly you know like I
said I haven’t seen yet about Hammond
and he was a funny kid so I think it’d
probably be a funny movie are you
participating and like they bring you
know as a consultant to do anything with
it I I’m a you know take a look at it
and see make the decision after that and
help them with some marketing on it it’s
interesting you know when you when you
grow up in different cities every city
has its own culture every city I mean I
grew up in I lived in Tehran ten years
right it’s a different called when I
explain people what it’s like growing up
in Tehran and people say come on now you
out of your mind are you freaking
kidding me I don’t believe that that’s
that’s Tehran you know I lived in
Germany in a city called Erlangen right
outside of Norman Berg it was a refugee
camp so the culture growing up there’s a
complete different thing you see
different things I grew up in Glendale
California which is like the capital of
Armenians around the world if you live
in Glendale there’s more Armenians in
Glendale than you know anywhere else
except for Armenia so every city has its
own culture I’ve lived in Kentucky
Tennessee all over the place what is it
like you know the culture of
Philadelphia in sports because you know
almost everybody I talked to that’s from
Philadelphia when it comes onto sports
they talk about it like it’s religion I
would put Phil
Delphia first I put Boston to New York
three is the way I put what makes
Philadelphia this special when it comes
on to sports just passionate with their
sports teams it’s a situation where
Sunday at 1:00 o’clock
everyone’s in front of the TV waiting
for the Eagles come on and I’ll never
forget you know I was dating a girl one
time that was you know not really a big
sports fan and I’m at her house one
o’clock and I’m like you know where’s
your dad why aren’t the Eagles you know
what’s going on here and it it just was
very rare that you know you’re not a big
passionate Eagles Flyers Phillies fan
then you know comes down to the it’s
what everybody valves around you know
the city doing well with their sports
teams one of the questions I want to get
into is the part about it being asked
that you fixed the game and you’re
saying you didn’t fix the game they’re
saying you fix the game and obviously
there was an investigation done with the
FBI Phil Scalia I want to say the last
name Scala Scala yeah and some other
names that were involved in it and I
want to hear your part what is the
difference between fixing and gambling
so you were convicted specifically for
gambling right you were not convicted
for anything to do with fixing the game
right I think what the the big
misconception is people think that I was
out there calling fouls on Shaq and Kobe
and LeBron and putting them to the bench
to where I was betting on the other team
and winning you know that wasn’t the
situation the situation was I was taking
information of what the league all of us
wanted to be called in those games and
who was going to be put in an advantage
or a disadvantage or relationships that
existed with referees and owners or or
certain players like you said there was
a time where Danny Crawford was one in
15 when he was refereeing to Dallas
Mavericks games there were times where I
knew you know Crawford was gonna stick
it to a certain team because he had
problems with them so with that
information
you know that’s what I did and use that
information it wasn’t like I was going
out using the whistle on a nightly basis
to make sure you know the bats won okay
so but you also say that most referees
gamble in the NBA would you agree with
that would you say that you’ve made that
statement yes most referees gamble the
NBA okay when you say that what are you
saying are you saying like
thousand dollar games $500 games $5,000
games what do you mean when you say they
gamble what I meant by when they gamble
is you know David Stern made the famous
comment when when this story went down I
was a rogue referee 2007 illegal
gambling will cost you your job because
it was in our contract you couldn’t bet
and illegal gambling will cost you your
freedom and he didn’t realize at that
time that you know probably fifty five
out of fifty eight NBA referees gambled
whether it was on the golf course
you know we all went to the casinos we
went to the racetrack you know we did a
lot of us gambled on football games even
amongst each other so I think he really
had to backtrack and and realized that
you know what he said was wrong but he
couldn’t fire 55 out of 58 referees
because they they gambled even though
that’s what he said let’s look at a
couple of the numbers because I know
based on what I see is the NBA
investigated 17 games in the oh six
season I believe right and out of the 17
games if I remember this correctly only
one came where you call two offensive
fouls on Collins I’m sure you know this
because you read it yourself and you’re
seeing it yourself and an ESPN The
Magazine went and investigated 40 games
of that season and I think the breakdown
on the 40 games is 10 was a blowout and
then 23 out of 30
the calls favored the people and the
teams that you bet on or you you said
that we’re gonna win so that’s 23 out of
30 that favor the calls three of them
when against and four was you know it is
it is what it is but when you look at
those rates you know they came back with
a number saying that’s like six thousand
one hundred and fifty five to one
chances of that happening
and so ESPN I magazines claim is no he
did fix the game he was pulling two
calls in the direction where the people
that were betting would favor them what
do you say to that when that number
comes back I mean how do you process
that yourself when you see that well
first why I don’t know that those
numbers are true but just let’s say that
they are for the argument’s sake the FBI
and the NBA both did a investigation
going through every tape trust me if the
prosecutors could have charged me with
fixing games they would have done it
they
they you know wanted me to go to jail
for a long do you think so they’re like
absolutely so tell me why though why do
you say that cuz my brain goes to a
different place because when I was being
questioned about it they asked me you
know a number of times they were going
over the tapes and and I think at the
end of it when they stood up in court
and said that you know a lot of my
allegations didn’t hold were in order to
support the NBA when I was saying that
certain referees were doing certain
things in in playoff series you know if
they said that the allegations didn’t
hold word I just think if the
prosecution had any say in it and the
NBA that I would have went to jail for a
long time I think the FBI agents who did
the investigation realized that I was
telling the truth at every turn and
that’s why Phil Scala wrote the foreword
for the book you think David Stern
wanted you to go to prison for life I
think that he wanted me to definitely
disappear because I think that you know
when my attorney John Laura fought a lot
of the motions in court and started
giving certain examples it caused a lot
of problems for the NBA so I think at
some point he realized that you know I
was going to start to talk yes I’m
seeing it from a different standpoint
and helped me process this and and tell
me you know if you agree or disagree the
way I see it is you know what happened
with the NFL when a movie came out
regarding concussions with Will Smith
and then they show data afterwards
numbers and families would household
income above $150,000 started pushing
their kids away from playing football
because they don’t want their kids tough
concussion this is really making sense
this has really taken place if it did
come out that you did fix the game if it
did wouldn’t that have hurt NBA’s
credibility and reputation if there is a
referee that did fix the game we’re not
kind of heard David Stern absolutely
because it sits on his watch and he’s
supposedly modern doing this whole thing
so yeah it would be an absolutely and
then that would have hurt the game fans
numbers owners volume advertising I mean
would it would have hit was it because
at that time he was running organization
was saying what when you’re running a
company that’s a four billion dollar
franchise you have to look at the
profits the numbers you know you have
clients you have customers you
so for me it almost goes back to the
situation where you’re saying you know
Jordan would give autographed shoes to
that one ref and he puts it in his
restaurant or such and such person has
lobbying with the refs to build a
relationship wouldn’t a David Stern be a
lobbying at the top with people in the
government to kind of pay let this one
go we’ll control it from here we don’t
want a lot of attention for this the
game is doing good the leaguers don’t
get everyone bets the benefits from this
let’s just make sure this guy goes to uh
and does its time fifteen months and
we’ll leave him alone he leaves us alone
he can’t come back to the league we can
wouldn’t there be a possibility of a
conversation like that would Stern there
was in fact John Laurel called the
league office and said hey listen we
would like to come in and speak with you
and go over you know what Tim early on
what Tim actually did you know I wanted
to help them and and show the the cracks
in their you know cements are speaking
and they didn’t entertain it and then
afterwards you know he said a lot of
things and took my you know retirement
money away from me and and did a lot of
things with the restitution that you
know made it you know difficult for me
to survive made it difficult for you to
survive but that it hurt the NBA brand
because if I own a team I’m competing
against 20 or how many NBA teams are
there right now as a 30 or 31 it’s
something like that right I’m competing
against 30 other teams okay but if I’m
Stern I’m competing with three other
teams which is who MLB NFL NHL right na
chills a niche product that’s a
different kind of a sport right but I am
competing against NFL maybe not MLB
because mo B’s different as well and I’m
trying to make sure MBA becomes what
number one right so and at that time you
know everybody knows what happened with
baseball in the 90s with the strike and
all this other stuff and I don’t I don’t
know when I watch this like when I watch
this ain’t okay from what you tell me if
I’m an attorney if I’m a jury if I’m a
judge from whatever I’m doing I’m
sitting there saying okay if you’re
getting two grand a pop if you call a
couple calls here and there you may say
Pat I’m telling you I didn’t do it
maybe emotional you’re vested under 23
out of 30 games let’s say that’s true I
definitely don’t want
to be public if I’m Stern because that’s
gonna hurt the leak so then it makes me
go back and look at and say well if that
is the case how many the owners are
sitting on saying looking if this has
happened because right now look was
pissed off today this season
Paul George you heard Paul George just
came out he didn’t even stop here’s a
guy that could potentially win the MVP
this season realistically LeBrons out
harden is probably not gonna win it this
year Westbrook probably not gonna win it
this year Anthony Davis is definitely
not gonna win it it’s probably Gianna’s
he’s not happy LeBron is not happy Steve
Kerr Steve Kerr is not happy let’s say
you LeBrons typically not happy he’s the
best he can not be happy he’s he is who
he is but some of these complaints
they’re making you’re sitting there
watching a saying look man I mean
megistias there some of it going on so
my question for you would be do you
think there’s any fixing of the game
going on today with any of the referees
I know you’re an outsider now looking at
you’re not in the circle anymore I’m
sure none of these referees can talk to
you because you’re probably the auntie
you know what you better not be talking
to you know yourself or else I would
just assume most industry to do it that
way if somebody’s a former FBI guy that
when you know whatever rogue you can’t
talk to that guy because if you do gonna
lose your job with us because we don’t
trust you talking to an outsider loose
lips let’s just say if I’m thinking that
do you think there’s anybody fixing a
game today I don’t think they’re fixing
games but I think there’s so much
subjectivity still in the game I think
there’s situations where relationships
are positive and negative and I think
it’s it spills out onto the floor Chris
Paul and Scott foster just got into it
recently and and you know I think that
when foster has the opportunity he’s
going to continue to stick it to him
so is that okay though it’s okay because
the league allows it to continue to
happen so how do you regulate that you
know how NFL here’s what I like about
what the NFL is done okay and you know
where I’m going with this one there’s
the some of the stuff that they have you
can go back through the red flag and you
know we’re gonna review this are we
gonna do then we’re gonna do that why
can’t they kind of go a little bit more
into that is it because it’s gonna slow
down the game is it’s gonna lengthen the
game I think that’s where it’s heading
and I think it has to be done if you
look at officiating all the major sports
Namie one hockey referee namely named me
one you know
I fell back judge you can’t do it at the
nba’s he only got lead that you can
continually name the referees because
there’s always you know they allow they
have to hire more referees and spread
the games out so that the players don’t
see the same referees on a continuous
basis yeah you lose credibility look at
but honestly I can’t stand watching
boxing at all you know you saw it again
with triple G the first fight versus
Canelo oh this referee scored its
seventh whatever the score was five I
don’t know what this 4 to 8 or 5 to 7
the way he’s they scored it and you lose
trust I watch UFC because at least UFC
you know who’s gonna be winning it
there’s some credibility even though a
big personality guy like Dana White is
running in which you know there’s some
politics involved with him because he’s
a power guy you have to listen to the
way he runs the show he built an empire
I still trust the results of UFC way
more than I do basketball and even like
for me a question for you up tiers you
know what you said about this because I
saw you the other day you were standing
by the computer and TV and you were
talking about what happened I think was
a Dwyane Wade call or some game it was
that you were saying this one it should
have been it was a Miami game I think it
was I don’t know which one it was but I
just saw the Golden State Warriors
they’re facing Cavs okay and it’s the
season where they went 73 and 9 and the
whole draymond Green situation that took
place when you watch that okay they call
the foul I get it let’s say fouls their
technical foul fine do you think a
one-game suspension is granted for
something like that for draymond
like why did they suspend him for a game
in the finals I think it depends on who
was up and down in the series
I think if Golden State would have been
down in the series there would have been
no suspension but you know if they’re up
in the series there’s a suspension why
because it takes a good player away off
the floor and then it allows for the
series to go on a little bit further it
allows for Cleveland to win a game you
know I just think it’s a situation where
even Stu Jackson who used to have a
Vanda wage job would say when he went to
suspend somebody especially during the
playoffs David Stern would call him up
screaming and yelling and it all depend
on what the situation was with the
series at the time so it was so
you know subjectivity on what the
circumstance was but that’s too much
politics that is too much politics and
it questions the integrity that’s why
they’re always gonna have problems until
they figure out how do I fix that though
because that’s a no because bet that’s a
4-peat that’s not a three-peat and no
one’s done a for Peter in a long time
since what Celtics I think the only team
that a 4-pete would was what the Celtics
of Golden State’s building an empire
there’s a big difference between a to
Pete and a for Pete and they don’t even
have a three-peat depending on if they
win this year which you’d have a lot of
lacrima shoes so I have a problem with
that I think you have to hire more
referees and I think every year you have
to get rid of the ones that you know
call percentages below par and have a
standard and that way the the players
and the fans and the owners will see
that there’s some turnover I mean if you
do this is you not referees to give the
one game suspension right I mean a that
came from away above him I don’t think
that that was his Adam is the one did I
think so I think you know Stu Jackson
came out and said you know when it gets
to that point that you know the
Commissioner gets involved
yeah that’s disappointing I mean I don’t
know how you feel about that but that’s
disappointing let’s transition I got I
got some other questions a complete
different direction I want to go into
with you
and I’m curious to know what you’re
gonna say about this so what do you
think about steroids in sports or PD in
sports like you know gh you know growth
hormone steroids and football steroids
in baseball what do you think about
steroids and additional things that
people are using in sports you know I
think it puts them at an unfair
advantage you know for the people that
aren’t doing it so III think it’s tough
that you have to really regulate it to
make sure that everyone’s playing under
the same you know rules and feel do you
think they should make it legal or no no
I think that you have to make it illegal
because I think it sends a bad message
to kids you know if you do this you know
which is probably hurting your yeah your
lifespan that you know you’re gonna be
able to end up like these guys I think
it just sends the wrong message okay so
some of these guys are coming in saying
look I’m playing football I’m getting my
ass kicked and I’m being hit by
330-pound person I kind of need my body
to be a little bit stronger I need a
little bit of Chi H to be able to handle
this you don’t know what it’s like to be
hit head-on with a frickin helmet that
can crush anybody skull and you know
this guy’s on something and I’m
to be able to have that so I asked this
question because it leads me to a whole
different thing
you think Canseco did the right thing by
coming out and telling everybody’s story
about who was doing what and who was
doing this you think that was the right
move on his end you know I think he had
a story I think he was you know fed up
with the way it was the direction that
it was heading and and he wanted to you
know come out and say his side of it
because I think it was obvious that you
know he definitely was on steroids and I
think he admitted it so with that I
think he just wanted to make sure
everybody else knew what was going on
did it help baseball you think I think
it took a little bit of excitement out
of the game because at that time you
know it was all those home runs were
flying out of the park so I think it
kind of it heard it but I think in in
the big scope of things I think it you
know would help the younger generation
that they took that out of the game you
know I think that the league to be
honest with it came up with a different
way of trying to keep that excitement
and we all know they say that the balls
are juice now so you know don’t do the
steroids because the ball is gonna go
out of the park you know anyway so you
know they came up with a different
Avenue to keep that excitement in there
so I think there’s always going to be
situations that fans are gonna question
you know what’s being done and how it’s
being done
that’s a fan as an outset I don’t know
if you’re a baseball guy or not I’m a
man you’re an all sports guy so did that
do anything to you about the opinion of
the game and baseball did you look at it
and say I trusted more I trust a lesser
did you like I really don’t give a
no no it didn’t matter to me another way
got it
so what do you think about Pete Rose
does he belong in Hall of Fame you know
I do I think he you know belongs in the
Hall of Fame I think he should be judged
for what he did on the field during his
playing days obviously he made a mistake
he’s finally come to the point where you
know he said that he you know he did
what he did and I think that he should
be given that opportunity I hope he does
while he’s still here that you know he
makes it into the Hall of Fame because I
think he’s somebody that you know
deserves it and I think it would really
you know change his life how many times
has the MBA or have any owners reached
out to you to want to hire you as a
consultant or bring you and I know this
is a crazy idea but has anybody from the
office front office or any sports team
I’m not looking for names I’m not asking
you throw names here I’m just asking has
anybody from the league ever reached out
you consider to employ you now never now
any NBA owners I had had conversations
with one owner early on and
unfortunately it fell through and and
you know I thought it was gonna be
something that I was gonna do but it
didn’t work out if I am the NBA and I
hired you as a consultant
what could you bring in value to the NBA
would you be able to identify areas
where the integrity of the game would be
going higher would you be able to help
them out or absolutely you have to look
at it from a experience and referee
perspective of what referees are doing
on the floor who they’re talking to
during timeouts before the game who
they’re laughs and well you know and all
that from a perception wise other
referees you know we’ll pick that up
because they know maybe this guy’s you
know getting in a position to try and
get a call you know other players will
look over and see why is he talking in
that kind yes not talking to me an owner
or a coach will look over to timeout and
see why is he talking that guy not
talking to me and then what happens
after that series and the next couple
times down the floor did they get a call
do you go back to why he got that call
did he because he had conversation with
them you there’s just a lot of things
that you have to look at in regard to
how about the other side what a sports
team benefit from hiring you I think I
could show them the mistakes that the
referees are making or what they’re
calling so that they could go over that
and practice in regard to prepare for
certain referees and what they’re
calling or look at the league office and
see what the they’re telling the
referees to call and make sure that
their players are doing the things the
right way and enforcing what the
referees are being told to call it so it
changes from every every given night
they have a webpage and they’re sending
out plays to these referees and tell
them to call these certain things how
big of an impact could you make points
wise per Gil I think that you know we
talked about this at lunch I think
there’s no doubt you know if you know
the tendencies are the referees and you
know what they’re calling that there
could be a difference of two three or
four
if you are aware of not doing what
they’re gonna call you take four points
times 82 games that’s 328 points
something like that that could cost you
like three four five games that could be
eight playoff sixth you know eight spot
ten spot I mean that’s we’re not talking
little numbers here so my follow-up for
you would be this would Adam silver be
okay if I one of these sports owners
hired you as a consultant I think that
there would be a problem I think that
early on I was gonna have a job with one
of the owners and I think that he
basically was told to stop talking to me
yeah that’s my personal opinion I don’t
know for sure but so do you know Frank
having geillis I do so what do you think
about Frank’s story a great story I
remember the movie with the FBI agents
yeah with the money right yeah yes he’s
the guy that had eight different
identities he was a surgeon I think he
was a pilot I one say he was a lawyer
then he would go to the banks and get
checks all these weird things he would
do right and eventually the FBI finally
said what the hell is this guy doing he
went to prison I think for five years
and later on the federal government
hired him because if he knows how this
works man we are gonna be able to catch
everybody else do you know Joseph
Kennedy’s story
he’s the market crash guy on what he did
and I’ve manipulated the stock market I
made all this money would make it go up
make it come down do you know who
finally hired him FDR you know what
position he got here an SEC so think
about the like this is like you’re going
after the biggest market manipulator and
you’re hiring him as a president to
become the guy running SEC he ran it
because he knew what everybody would be
doing and then FDR was able to clean up
the financial industry with the
manipulation was taking place and this
list goes on this isn’t just these two
names there’s you know other names we
can look at so Joe Kennedy Frank at
McGill you know there’s a lot of guys
that come in I think from an outsider
looking in if Joe Kennedy gets hired by
FDR if F beyond the federal government
hires Frank Abigail if you got if you
got these kinds of things going on what
about if Adam silver or somebody came in
and said hey we’re gonna make a call to
this is going to be weird it’s gonna be
strange people didn’t think we’re crazy
but we are hiring
Tim as a consultant and he’s gonna come
in and he’s gonna do XYZ to clean house
and kind of show us stuff that he can
help out in this area what would you
think if you got a weird call from front
office or somebody said listen we would
like to talk to you about possibly
bringing you in but here’s some of the
arrangements would you even entertain
that idea oh absolutely I mean you talk
about you know my love of basketball and
growing up and making it to the NBA I’d
be foolish not to you know want to
entertain that but I don’t think it
would happen with the NBA you know
possibly maybe one of the other sports
leagues I think it would be an
opportunity or maybe you know an
individual team but I just don’t think
the NBA would do that just based on the
black eye and rightfully so that I did
and I put on the league so you know I
wouldn’t be waiting for that phone call
to be honest with you and neither from
the teams I think it’s a possibility one
of the teams in the NBA but I think it
would be something that would not be
publicized that it would be you know
behind closed doors that I could break
down tape and and look at cause I know
there’s been some retired referees that
have done that for you know a lot of the
individual teams just by sitting on with
you and having a conversation like oh my
gosh I mean I would want to know that as
an owner especially if I’m in a smaller
market guy and not even the bigger
market guys because a bigger market guys
they don’t need it they already got the
favoritism going for them right I mean
the NBA wants to in the finals today if
you think about it who does the NBA one
of the finals this year you want Golden
State against who Boston yes nor Philly
that’s who you’re gonna want right do
you know you’re now gonna want so why
not Milwaukee certainly not Milwaukee
right mark yet right you’re not gonna
want Milwaukee because in one way if
Milwaukee wins
giannis is staying do you really want
Gianna staying in that market or do you
want Milwaukee losing and Gianna’s going
to an LA or Gianna’s going to a
different Dallas market you know I don’t
know if I want him to stay over there
but I don’t know I just look at it from
the standpoint of if this is a game of
having edge if Bezos goes out there and
hire some interesting people to give him
an edge former FBI agents you know
former people like that why are you
hiring former agents for what you know
what’s the reason behind that and he
runs a trillion dollar company if I’m
the NBA he
I would notice it I would hate for a
documentary or a movie to be made about
your story so let’s just say somebody
sees this because you know these
interviews sometimes they see it like a
Michael Franzese was on our show we
ended up getting 10 million views
between a couple interviews one was 6.2
and other ones like 2 points and one in
Russian is like a million and an all the
other stuff a any contact that I’m
showing Vegas all this other stuff I
would I found the leak
I am much more excited about hiring you
then allowing somebody from Hollywood to
reach out to you and make a movie about
this like concussion so I think that
movie is gonna hurt the NBA more than
the NBA hiring you and signing a 10-year
contract with you as a consultant to
keep you in as long as XYZ stuff you
agree to that would be my move I need
you as my agent I would make a hell of
an agent but I want a company but that
would be my approach so let’s do a
lightning grant and it will wrap up and
we’ll talk about the book and we’ll send
it off so I’ll give you some names just
tell me where you think about a first
word that comes to mind or whatever
thing you want to say about them okay
first one when you’re best friends in
the world David Stern arrogant okay
LeBron James powerful Ron artists funny
really Michael Jordan the goat Wow Phil
Jackson sarcastic Popovich miserable I
just think he I’ve never met somebody
night in and night out they could be so
miserable
it just it was never a smile or you know
in a good mood it just seemed like it
was no matter what whether it was up 20
or not he just seemed interesting Joey
Crawford that’s a tough one good guy
what was the first three words you
thought about before he said good guy
that’s what I want to know it’s tough
but he you know to be honest with you
he’s he’s a given guy to the community
and he and he really gives back and you
know would take this shirt off his back
for people Danny Crawford talented
Bavetta
shady okay Rasheed Wallace I’m trying to
think on the floor or off the floor but
on the floor nuts Rick Mahorn great guy
Adams
silver different because I really don’t
know him I just know him from what he
does now but I think it’s a different
take on on what David Stern was like so
better or worse would that are much
better I think you know professional
likeable seems to want to just do things
the right way
interesting Jack Nicholson funny funny
okay and then that’s about it those are
the names I have for you well so look if
you thought today’s interview was
interesting we haven’t even gotten into
like 50 stories in here he had an
incident one time with Berkeley in the
locker room with I mean you just have to
see what happened there a couple
incidents with Jordan and Phil Jackson
which was pretty epic and a lot of other
stories if you were MBA guy you want to
hear it from his perspective but you
know one of the things you were talking
about don’t you talk a little bit about
ref picks tell me what this ref picks
website ref picks P I see KS calm right
right so it’s a website for people that
game occasionally obviously hopefully
nobody has a problem we basically guide
them through the pitfalls of you know
traps to stay away from and and I put up
NBA picks based on the referees and the
relationships that exist if you’re you
know into in the bettin on the ball
games there’s a form of entertainment
you know we guide you through you know
how to hopefully be a winner not a loser
ref pics.com well if ESPN magazine was
right 23 out of 30 if you if they were
right but anyways ref pics.com will put
the domain here so here’s what we’re
gonna do this is what I would like you
to do if you’re watching this interview
are still intrigued by the end of you
that we have if there is anybody now we
talked about in the interview that you
took away and you said wow this person
has to see this interview tag Tim and I
Tim’s handles right here Tim Donaghey –
on Twitter and I’m Patrick that David
sent a tweet on Twitter the first three
people that say here’s what I took away
and such and such person in the NBA has
to watch this you do that we’ll send
three signed copies to the first three
people that send a tweet if you’re the
one the first three you’ll get a signed
copy from Tim Donaghy being sent over to
you with that being said Tim thank you
so much for coming out here and being
again somebody Jana truly really enjoyed
it thank you okay
Tim obvious um you gotta move a gimbal
give me a chance together and okay so
we’re the Lakers Philly you got more in
a second Hawkins what a year
what a year and I got Vlada and worthy
here we go at the only request I have
for you jump before we start the game as
you please don’t fix this game and get
the referees on the other side hoping
you’re okay you’re gonna play one
quarter you give me a break because it’s
home time I appreciate that I got the odds to us
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