thank you thank you it’s such a pleasure
to be here I’m so nervous that I’ve not
been able to eat all day and the problem
is that I’ve been reading your books all
day so a mixture of terrified and
absolutely starving because you know
that’s what happens when you read your
books but thank you so much for coming
here and being with us you know the we
do a lot with philosophy here and the
philosopher Epicurus back in the 5th
century BC said that true philosophers
shouldn’t think very much about food all
they need he believed was bread or lives
and a bit of cheese as a treat that
seems a little bit or still what would
you recommend that philosophers now have
a taste of what if you had to design a
meal I think bread essential yeah olives
yes yeah she’s like yes I think wine and
olive oil
it’s ortant tome I think though that
there are different sorts of
philosophers and as you know in the
ancient world there’s a divergence quite
a strong divergence and those and still
those who feel that any pleasure taken
in food is giving into the animal
therefore the baser part of yourself and
those who feel that celebrating pleasure
is a way of being more truly alive and
in fact I’ve said this to you before but
I can with rather mean and say it to
save again save again which is that when
we were both young you still owe me work
I am a lot older than you but still we
were made when I did a book program yeah
a long time ago and you said I was
talking about a some food writing wasn’t
a recipe book was so rather good it was
a rather good book called the man who
wears everything by Jeffrey Steingarten
and who’s this woman has a very good
memory because this is about 18 years
ago 50 15 years ago
yeah okay and I said we use
it rather primly well during the program
I feel there is nothing good that food
nothing good where food can make things
any better and nothing bad that it make
this any better that actually you felt
it was not important in any way and I
feel you know I’ve grown nobody but it’s
interesting because for many people food
doesn’t hold any particular emotional or
emotional weight or it doesn’t seem part
of a life okay I think for those people
yeah that’s fine and I what makes me
feel slightly nervous even though I feel
to some extent I’ve contributed it to it
which is that to me Food Matters an
awful lot it matters because I like
eating and I don’t like eating if the
occasion of pleasure is not made the
most of I think perhaps I was less fussy
when I was younger but now that I’ve
probably eaten more meals and I’m going
to eat I really need to feel that
everything I eat means something to me
tell us more about award we’ll go but
but i but I do feel that what’s happened
and in the climate now in this of a
sanctimonious Buddhism which is that if
if you’re engaged with food or if you
like food or if you can cook it’s seen
as a moral value which I don’t hold with
I mean I don’t feel I’m any better for
cooking my own food than I feel I’m bad
not being able to so my own clothes I
think that that something’s gone wrong
there and I think that if you are
genuinely someone who doesn’t get
pleasure out of
then that’s as far as I see it a great
misfortune but I don’t think it’s I
don’t think it’s something to disparage
right in how to eat Italy and if at all
your work there’s there’s a lot of
sympathy for people who might want to
cook but are a bit afraid of it what
let’s consider the person who might want
to enjoy eating but is a bit afraid is
he I think that’s me at least the
younger me I was afraid to give in to
the pleasure of food thinking I tell you
what it came from it came from a sense
that if I’m really enjoying this meal
what’s the bigger purpose of my life
surely life is about bigger things than
you know taking delight in a piece of
toast or whatever surely I know now
actually as life’s got harder and as
many of the bigger projects halves come
to see more painful I’ve actually
thought well a good five minutes with
some food is as valuable as anything
else but I think it’s a valuable you see
I think that it that I think there are
various things that give food a
particular meaning and a particular
value and rather like the cherry blossom
which is very very short I think the
fact and I think you once said to me but
don’t you find with cooking you spend so
much time and it’s eaten fast that’s a
lesson I feel that life is impermanent
and that you can’t necessarily think the
pleasure you get from it at one moment
will last to another
therefore if that’s something that
happens not only every day but several
times a day that is a lesson about life
and it’s a lesson about life perhaps
you’re ready to absorb as you get older
and I also feel that I suppose when
you’re younger you have the starlet’s
need to be taken seriously and I know
that feeling and luckily I’ve outgrown
it just as well but I think you if you
get genuine pleasure from anything
you’re incredibly fortunate and
therefore to feel that there are
worthier pleasures they aren’t worthier
if they’re not authentic
you see if you sell it to me like that I
love it but if it’s simply sold as
indulgence so I like an explanation you
know somebody said ok this is a piece of
food if you can enjoy this it’s part of
enjoying the moment it’s part of
appreciating life then I’m really enjoy
but somebody says it’s just tasty or
it’s just nice and I think that may be
the way that we talk about food in our
construction uh-oh I like a bit of
didacticism well because because I think
that I think the way in which food is
framed in a culture really influences
how an individual relates to what’s in
front of them and I think in our culture
it’s seen as merely just a bit of fun
but I think what’s nice actually is to
connect it to these deeper things like
it’s about appreciation it’s about you
know connection blah blah these are
these sort of deeper things that that
are serious do we do care about I think
people do make those connections but I
think too often they make connections
with things that are positive so they so
people believe that if you like cooking
that you’re a wonderful nurturer and so
whereas the truth more often is those of
us who like feeding other people
actually a quite controlling and you
know that’s turn and a to the two can
coexist I don’t deny that but that’s
tell us tell us more about the
controlling thing so you’re you’re
saying I can’t imagine being at the
mercy of someone else telling me what I
I was going to eat whereas for a lot of
people they feel relieved if they’re not
making the decision about what there is
so if you if you’re a guest in somebody
else’s house you’re starting to get
twitchy I’m fine
oh you’re fine I’m sort of fine but if I
go and stay in someone else’s house I do
take well that’s hell anyway yeah one
should never do that but yes but it’s
not it’s so many about episode I also
think that the there are many people who
don’t really take
is about fear who date you don’t take
pleasure in food but also have a fear of
the flesh generally I mean I think it’s
something about giving in to what
certain schools of thought certain
religions have always held to be animal
tendencies and and somehow it’s in so I
have a sore throat obviously since I’m
going to be talking a lot that people
think it’s either unseemly or they are
not the Masters of their desires and
that’s quite difficult and that’s been
really generous to these people what
could we tell these people because I
think you’re absolutely right as a side
of human nature that is afraid of
pleasure so given that this exists what
would you tell these people to I feel
that perhaps I’m out or perhaps the fear
of pleasure is often a feeling that you
will be punished for it
and I think one has to remember that
it’s incredibly important to value
pleasures because they are not given
freely and they’re not always available
and it’s our duty to to take pleasure
it’s not an indulgence
it’s an acceptance of being alive and I
find that you know on you know various
questions I’m asked always one of them
is you know what are your guilty
pleasures and I always feel well the
only thing I can imagine feeling guilty
about is not taking pleasure I think
that’s wrong I mean I don’t mean ever I
think that is wrong because that’s what
they’re there for but I own but in terms
of you’ve already sort of turned it into
a more positive thing than I feel but
because I do think the fact that you
cook and then it’s demolished or the
food that isn’t demolished will perish
and therefore it is really much more
about impermanence decay it’s that very
Japanese idea of kind of wabi-sabi the
appreciation of things that are there
for only a moment and I mean it is it’s
partly that and it’s partly there’s
other sort of Zen feeling that I this is
about cooking rather than eating which
is the you know the chop wood carry
water I don’t know was it something else
you said before enlightenment chop wood
carry water offer enlightenment chop
wood carry water and I think that what I
quite like about cooking and this is a
decadent Western affluent person talking
obviously because for many people manual
labor is part difficult manual Labor’s
part of their lives but I like the
connection with the ground I’m an urban
person I like the fact that it is manual
Labor’s I live otherwise totally in my
head so I feel that that repetitive
activity so you think you’ve done it and
it comes back again you think you’ve
done it and it comes back again that
somehow is an awful lot about life and I
think to get patient and accepting about
that is difficult generally in life but
that’s where it starts for me and I mean
the virtues of that you display when
you’re cooking are things I mean you’re
very keen on connections between cooking
and the rest of life so in order to be a
good cook what can we you know what are
the what are the virtues that will make
you a good cook that could also be
applicable in other areas of life I’m
thinking of things like discipline or as
you say repetition patience I don’t well
I think unfairly but then life is unfair
unfairly the most important thing in
becoming a good cook is having a palate
and that is something you have or you
don’t have an tell tell us about that
because what I thought everyone had a
palate I mean is it is it like an ear
for music with are there people who are
literally deaf as it were TV
and tell me about these people I mean it
you’d put two different kinds of bread
they won’t notice the difference you
well I think partly it’s because food
has been used as a status symbol such a
lot that it makes people nervous of
having an authentic opinion in case it
marks them down in some way but now what
I mean by that is that we live in an age
rather unlike so many ages when we’re
all meant to be attuned to food we’re
all men to understand something about
cooking and we’re all meant to have food
represent a very important part of our
lives as well for many people that’s not
the case and therefore I don’t think you
can do anything well if you’re not
interested so that if you’re not
interested it’s really whether it’s got
that herb or another herb it doesn’t
matter and it must seem quite oppressive
if somebody is telling you what it is
very important there is I think it’s I
think it’s not just oppressive but just
beyond the realms of comprehension I
mean I’ve always thought that eaters it
was important as cooks and people who
don’t cook but every bit is important
those of us who do cook need to feed
people sure I think in terms of where I
find connections I I have a belief that
what’s true in the kitchen is true out
of the kitchen therefore when you cook
you need to have a certain amount of
respect for the rules but not so much
that you feel you have to avail all of
them you need to be able to know when
does to trust your instincts now
actually I’m not terribly good at
authority anyone else is all my own and
when I cook something from one of my own
books I hear myself saying she says put
two spoonfuls of this but I don’t want
and I realized that she is me and
that’s nothing that I I think that I
think the balance between understanding
the discipline of a form while also
allowing yourself the freedom to impose
yourself on that form is crucial let’s
talk a specific recipe and run this idea
through it so give me imagine some kind
of dish and try and tell us what in the
making of that dish belongs to the
authority and the rules you should
follow and where there’s kind of room
for maneuver and play but there’s always
room for manoeuvre playing less perhaps
you’re talking about baking video and
then so I’m talking even about a roast
chicken which I think is the fundamental
unit of cooking is it why why is that
because I think it speaks to a time
that’s probable primitive in our society
when the notion of a meal consisting of
an animal sacrifice and I apologize to
any vegetarians here was considered
important and so therefore you’re
cooking a whole animal and I think that
most of us can remember eating roast
chicken with grandmother’s or
great-grandmother’s and through our
families it’s it’s something that
doesn’t feel but the authority the
authority fear is always going to be
that you pull it out and it’s not cooked
there’s always the fear that’s not
cooked right and hard what does one do
ever before do I do with that fear but
be frightened it being overcooked keep
nothing about that what I can’t leave it
you can you know put it back in how long
does a chicken need in the oven
I can’t believe I asked that I wasn’t
mean I don’t know numbers why can’t just
right what should I do
so why not sniff it or wash it what do I
do
well I would say a pen in it what do I
do
I can’t aren’t you broad brush or I
can’t use if you wanted to enroll in a
cooking school it’s up to you okay how
long we got okay give it to me give it
give me the strict things in 30 seconds
the strict instructions what that fast
here okay roughly which roughly is yeah
don’t put it don’t ever put something
straight an animal or anything straight
from the fridge into an oven there has
to be room temperature before you start
you’ll not incidentally allowed to say
that in America because they’re so
frightened something look like about
right and it depends what temperature
you have your arm people cook according
to their temperaments that’s very
important when I talk to people are
cooking I always in if you’re someone
when you catch a train you need to get
to the station three hours three me yeah
sweet then what do you do what you do
with the chicken look in a very
different way if like what does that
mean what do you do with the chicken
I like okay so then arrived so then you
might want to start off on a one
temperature then lower it to another and
then make sure you’re going to want to
cover all your bases are going to be a
mess I like I do a very high temperature
the whole time I don’t mind a bits burn
I like that what’s your station arrival
philosophy how do you arrive late at the
station no no private the perfect time
okay
so I I feel that you have to be brave
enough Jen so with the chicken I’m gonna
tell you this no it’s on you just get a
knife or sharp thing you put it through
through this bit right and if it says
water no if it comes out clear
yeah it’s cooked if you’re having if are
using a good organic chicken it’s going
to be more muscular and it’s going the
leg meat is going to be browner and
Pinker and you all think it’s
undercooked and it isn’t and that’s fine
okay
anyway you should always take it up it
earlier and let it stand everything
cooks in its own residual heat okay that
is good sake the main point I would say
yes yeah you choose a way of cooking
that super suits you and so you were
saying it about you know how do I learn
to cook it you learn to cook it and then
you you choose whether you want to put
duck fat on it or butter or olive oil
whether you want to put salt and pepper
or whether you it’s so reassuring that’s
why people love you because you are so
reassuring you you both have authority
and yet you basically say you can do it
I mean I think it’s the encouraging tone
isn’t cooking if you’re just following a
recipe and in my first book I said you
know this is a strange thing to be
saying but you know the tyranny of the
recipe is wrong and if I am successful I
will be making myself redundant now this
is bad because I don’t know my
publishers might know how many books
I’ve written but I’ve forgotten but I
think seven or eight and I hope that the
reason why I haven’t made myself
redundant is not because people don’t
take those lessons to heart but because
people are like me and they like reading
about food so for me it’s about
prolonging the pleasure and I like
reading about food I like cooking food i
eating food I like talking about meals
I’ve eaten I like talking about meals
and going to eat so let’s talk let’s
talk ingredients because one of the
things that emerges from your book as
you say is a love of language and the
capacity of language to evoke sensory
pleasures and beauty so I just wanted to
talk about
I was the battery I come from a family
interrupt okay so I’m just going to
interrupt you if you really want to just
let’s talk over me but otherwise I want
to ask you about lemons because the
lemon is is a we are school of life
color is lemon yellow so I think the
lemons are very I want to I want to run
you through a few ingredients so what’s
tell me about lemons let’s
free-associate around lemons what is the
lemon the lemon if you’re a kind of
Thomas man Northern European yes we are
Yonex we need lemons right we it for us
it’s the exuberance of the South yeah
but I also think that the there’s such a
an almost carry on film like slavering
this about sweet people forget the
absolute exquisite pleasure of sour and
for me a lemon is about that but it’s
not it’s not hot just about the juice
and the fact that also you cook with
that because in some sense is the acid
or it could be alkaline I was a regular
science-y thing yeah of the lemon can
cook certain it does cook its the
teenagers but for me it’s about the zest
and the zest is where the oils of a
lemon lie and there is something about
smell that is that both priests and no
Howard understood that smell is very
very important and so that if I’m
cooking and I’m destined a lemon then I
feel it as well as know that I’m going
to taste it later but the feeling in the
sensing it is extraordinary important if
you had to choose one ingredient with
which to pair a lemon in a very basic
structure what would it be what you know
what goes well with a lemon at its most
basic at its most basic
there’s no such thing as at its most
basic figures but in a sense that I
think that many people would be garlic I
mean I feel that salt is probably the
essential ingredient that you add to
anything you cook it’s very
unfashionable say that but I think salt
unleashes everything tilt can we talk
for one minute about avocados because
I’m fascinated by the avocado what when
I when I mentioned avocados what what
tell me about the avocado your feelings
towards it okay my feelings towards you
have occurred
positive yeah but I I think the avocados
about texture it doesn’t actually have a
taste much and texture is
extraordinarily important in food
without tell me more about what is
technique conveyed right and so because
what do you know I don’t know if you can
remember being an infant but you’ve
certainly well and you later Agency on
you hold up yeah I can remember feeding
infants yes which is that when they
dislike a food you give them it’s
generally the texture they dislike not
the taste but the avocados fascinate
because it doesn’t taste of much but
it’s fun to eat it’s what you’re having
a good time but you’re thinking I’m not
really sure what I’m eating what does
that emerge I know I think the texture
is important I think it’s I think one
also has a sense in which it’s ancient
and I think that does matter but I I
think that that it carries flavor salt
it means salt works chili works lime
works because it’s bland
and it’s bland but it’s it’s got that
clay like texture it’s also very
beautiful and I think the aesthetic
element of food is crucial you I don’t
mean you know what a chef would call a
beautiful plate but just draw the
natural beauty of food you want to these
sort of synesthetic people who senses a
connection between foods and other
things be they sounds colors or even I
was thinking people
I mean I don’t know you know if if I was
a food
what watches what kind of a scary
dangerous game isn’t it greenbean me why
why why is that why is that why would I
be a green being partly I suppose
because you’ll see rabbinate actually
just came to my mind okay partly because
you are hesitant right as one will be
there was nothing wrong with the green
bean oh I don’t really knows the point
is I like we be young is if David if
David Cameron were a food what food
would he be this in a believable could
can you sense no but that’s like those
sort of questions that Sunday’s
okay we’ll move on but I think yeah that
food has a meaning and the interesting
thing about food is that it has a
meaning
it’s like language so there’s a language
we speak as a culture always a race or
as a country there’s a language we speak
at home which is a sort of family
language and there’s a particular
grammar of the family that means an
awful lot and there’s also one’s own
voice and therefore just as you mean I I
particular on to food because in writing
about food I felt I found my own voice
but nevertheless according to who you
are you cook in a particular way and one
of the difficulties about writing
recipes amande I always said people you
know ignore this will do this or these
inject because you do need to put
yourself there and but food is a
repository of memory and it’s a
repository of connections and I can’t I
wish I could remember exactly what the
books called I think it’s called in
memories kitchen and it’s a very
in itself it’s not moving but the fact
that exists is very moving and it’s an
account it’s a recipe book that was
concentration camp in two recent start
and she start everyone there began they
were so hungry you think they can better
think about food and I don’t know
whether it was because they felt the
hunger they needed to write down recipes
of the food they’d all cooked at home or
because they had this sense that as a
race they were being extinguished
therefore they had to memorialize those
foods but nevertheless this is just a
bare blank book of recipes well that
seems to me in terms of the meaning of
food or in terms of how we are which is
of course only imagine the rouse that
broke up in that vogue out in that
concentration camp as one person said
but I never made my dumplings like that
yeah I made them like this now and
that’s also about being alive it’s about
disagreeing and it’s about cooking in a
particular way one of the themes that in
your work is food as as a comfort as a
consolation we have that term comfort
food comfort I don’t believe in you tell
you it actually because I think what
people who come from food is is
absolutely opposite is discomfort food
the food you eat when you are hung when
you’re unhappy that doesn’t make you
feel better that is generally not even
good it’s as it’s using food as a
narcotic so what is it what is comfort
cooking yeah um I don’t think one I
don’t I don’t got well unhappy i but
anxiety is helped by cooking again
because there are steady repetitive
practices and somehow there is something
about stirring and stirring and staring
away I would a chapter about risotto one
such I called the solace of stare
and I think there is enormous comfort to
be garnered but from the eating side of
the equations there there are surely
also foods that that that do you know
press the right buttons in certain moods
no see if I yes there are and they will
different from person to person but I
also think you know in a way it’s a
Freudian thing which is that eating is
like going back to the breast so while
you’re at the breast or you’re
completely subsumed by an app’s fear of
pleasure and it’s everything is that
connection now everything else falls
away what do you think goblin is worse
when it stops what do you think governs
people’s individual food Maps what
determines whether one person is going
to like this or that how have you
observed people and it is about the food
they ate in childhood and so what’s the
relationship between childhood food and
adult taste how does it work what I’ve
got me in a sense that these things are
you know always contradictory for a lot
of people the food they long for the
food they ate in childhood all and
idealized and idealized form of that but
we’re not talking about fish fingers or
are we talk about it I mean is it is it
literature is it a child big food it
could be I suppose but it could also be
a way of rebelling against that but I
think for me for example I do it I
something that my mother was cooked
which is a I&S it’s not that it’s a
chicken and a pot really it’s on it’s
very unfashionable it’s on top of a
stove it doesn’t get a crisp skin it
looks pallid but it it’s not quite
chicken soup but it’s not quite a
braised chicken but it’s very important
and I find it important to in terms of
the units of memory and I speakers on
actually you didn’t bet you liked eating
as a child so it’s a separate thing but
I now cook it for my children now my
mother died very young my children never
got to know her so for me that’s very
part of cookie do you think this
explains some of the anxiety around
dinner parties around inviting other
people to enjoy one’s food because
precisely we all have these different
maps and it’s a sort of guesswork what
is the other person going to enjoy I was
remembering a rather unconventional
friend of mine who said that he was
going to invite people around to eat
what he ate when he was alone and so
that ended up being that everybody got a
can of tuna and a pot of taramosalata
and a bit of pita bread and that was
supper and actually wasn’t bad it was
quite fun yeah but here’s though I think
if I say this is someone who likes
cooking that if in a strange way if the
food is the most important part of a
dinner party then things aren’t working
because conversation is so important in
connections
I think that if you are not a relaxed
cook then being by your stove and being
in a state of intense stress is the
worst thing you can do and actually
almost everyone will prefer you just to
be very relaxed and thrown for a pizza
and I’m not saying that it’s not even a
comic thing I really believe it now I
happen to be prone to anxiety as a
person and yet when I cook I’m not
particularly but then I do not try and
cook things which are difficult so I’m
very happy doing something very simple
when I have people there it’s I’m not
trying to be judged through my food and
I think that for a lot of people it’s
it’s it they think it should be
performance art in some way and they
think they’re being judged and actually
what if you were all nervous because
we’re all trying to please other people
but if you convey that then no one can
enjoy anything right so if you’re in a
way deferring the attention of the
dinner party away from the food to the
next bit which is the conviviality now
what in your view is what is a good
meeting around food as you break bread
with with somebody what’s your idea of
what breaking bread with someone should
be about what should we be doing as we
eat
the food that’s been the focus that
brought us together what should we
what’s the kind of conversations we
should be having do you like to be given
rules I think I think that I enjoy
conversations which mix the intellectual
with a frivolous I’ve always slightly
thought people who have faith afraid of
frivolity weren’t the real thing so to
mark a certain mark of seriousness to be
able to but I I’m not that doesn’t mean
I want to hear what I happen on x-factor
hmm
there’s a certain kind of frivolity or
something it’s about a cast of mind and
I I think that it’s a bit like as I have
a view about relationships generally
which is a sort of Venn diagram view
which is you need a certain amount of
overlap but you definitely need that
outside bit that’s different I think
that’s what I think about all social
groupings that when I first went to
America I was so amazed I mean mere
change now that I so amazed because
people seem to know only those people
which had this saying who had the same
political views or interests
therefore they just agreed with one
another whereas I don’t think we’re
quite like so you quite like a bit of
conflict around the taking away is
conflict but I don’t call this women
conflict right
I don’t like boorishness and I don’t
like bad manners but I like discussion
yeah
then let’s switch to books because long
before you were writing about food you
were writing about books you were very
involved in in the book world if you had
to write a book called how to read
rather than how to eat what would be in
it so similar
yeah I’m sometimes but I always think
that writing and cooking are very at
and reading and eating and I don’t know
it whether this is as the synesthesia
you were speaking of but when I read I
get a profound sense of whether I like
the taste of a sentence or not I mean I
actually that’s how I experience what’s
a good what sort of sentences do you
like what’s a good sentence for you but
it really depends yeah what what have
you enjoyed recently what you know if
you imagine let’s try and imagine the
perfect Nigella novel so you’re reading
enough what sort of stuff would you like
happening in the novel would what are
the moments that you enjoy plot doesn’t
interest me enormous tear right plot
Isaac Watts boring so what do you like
what moment you’ve got lovely love that
I like I like I like people who
understand the power of language and the
feeling of language but I can’t stand
those sorts of writers and I’m not
naming them who you can actually sense
leaning back from their web processes in
the garret fine sentence right
understand that and and what’s the
equivalent in cooking of those people
the fine writers won’t think quick are
the UNK
what kind of cooking is that thing it’s
cooking that draws too much attention to
the cook and not enough to the food and
I think it’s food that it’s brought
someone not understanding that food does
not need and almost a mile of
interfering with now that’s not to say I
believe in the contemporary maxim that
you buy the most but this is you know
for people that everyone thinks is what
aliens believe and therefore if Italians
believe it it must be right but actually
it’s so nowadays people think you buy
the best ingredients you can and you do
as little as possible to them but
actually that’s not cooking and Italians
understand that too and the reality is
often cooking just means it spends more
time in the oven you don’t have to be
tap-dancing and pure wetting and doing
things – this could be a rabbit or an
import so let’s carry that thought back
to literature so what what’s these so I
think you need to fill your you’re
engaging with the real voice now there
are certain books
my reason I’m not sure that I I don’t
know if I think that’s a wonderful book
but I I feel like reading someone’s
voice like that what you what you like
reading tell tell us some writers that
you love addictive a reader to have a
but you know I can remember what I read
recently in light and I don’t know with
our like the next one so I think in
terms of taste of sentences Martin names
his sentences always taste good you
don’t think he’s a leaning back person
going look I’ve run an amazing sentence
I’m he may be busy manages to hide us
had it so well right and actually the is
he’s funny and I would agree with you so
that works me you know I like Jane
Austen sentences yeah I like Ike what I
like many writers who just need to get
that but written and my I think
sometimes it surprises me more when I
read a book I’m not sure all right
for example I read recently a book
called a tale for the time being I Ruth
ozeki she’s called and when it started I
thought is not for me but the person who
recommend to me said when it starts all
thing it’s not for me and so she kept
going on and then I just I thought I
wanted to read more but coming coming
back come back to the book that you’re
going to write called how to read or
might write what else would be in it
what else what else might you counsel
somebody who’s on the edge of literature
I think is but you see this is the thing
that is so problematic this distinction
between literature and books rise
distinction between what an aqua zine
and I wouldn’t say junk food because I I
mean but just somehow if you like low
food which is i when when you have
children you realize that unless you
warp them with your own prejudices and
obviously we all do but nevertheless a
child is my job mate would makes no
distinction in terms of the pleasure he
or she might get from it from mulier or
some McDowell’s
fries you know you like them or you
don’t like them and I think that’s
important with books so I feel that you
should never say to a child or by
extension anyone you know this is good
eat this it’s good feel or read this
it’s good whew
that when I was up when I was a child I
loved Enid Blyton and I was many parents
at that time foundation that their
children like because she wasn’t money
in but Oh once right so it’s a pleasure
from reading you get pleasure from
reading do you think that some of them
because there will be there we shouldn’t
be frightened of being judged because if
you get pleasure from something
genuinely now there’s there are two
sorts of pleasure there’s a pleasure
that lasts in your mind after you’ve
stopped eating or you’ve stopped reading
which matters more to one from the sort
of pleasure which is there and then
feels a bit shabby afterwards
so there are what’s the problem what’s
the book we’re talking about here well I
was thinking more about food than the
right books I don’t know that I don’t
know I don’t have the thing I desire
that force myself to carry on reading a
book if I feel this is really not for me
yeah um tell me about wisdom because
it’s a weird words a word that we like
at school of life but it’s a sort of
slightly disreputable word but do you
think that you’ve become wiser and if so
what what’s the wisdom you’ve picked up
in the course of your life what have you
learned that you could become someone
who sounds wiser but whether it has any
application to myself so sound a bit
wise with us
Metin tell it tell us tell us what you
you know what you think that you have
learned even though we take it for
granted we’re all crazy
life’s fragile etc but where do you feel
that you have reached insights and what
might those insights be and
I’ve lost this again let’s come back
when it’s compressed come back way um
well I don’t know because I feel I’m the
sort of person who reacts well to any
particular plea or condition rather than
I don’t have a generalized wisdom and
maybe it’s because I think a generalized
wisdom doesn’t exist so how would you
know I I can give advice why give us
some advice for the shy and the
unconfident because it is a theme that
runs through your work yes I mean this
is a bad thing say that I hate at the
time I was an incredibly shy child and
when I was 15 my mother said to me which
at the time I didn’t think was very
helpful but she said to me why are you
so shy who’s interested in you anyway
and actually at the time I did no one no
one can at the time I didn’t think it
was that helpful
however those 15 no but what I do think
is that the more you concentrate on
other people rather yourselves so when I
first started doing book signing so ever
I just felt so shy my dust
even now I do solid but then I thought
actually never mind about my shyness
actually made difficult someone else
coming up and doing that so it wasn’t
you know the thing is you know to think
of the other person what to discard
oneself and then that’s the easiest cure
for Schreiber’s the glue of course
Chinese is a form of self absorption it
doesn’t feel like that but nevertheless
it is and if you think of the other
people or the other person just one
other person and sometimes shyness is
good I think that one shouldn’t get rid
of it altogether
I find children who are never shy so
worrying right I mean it’s a bit like
that pops from some in an American
sitcom and I just feel like this isn’t
right yeah
you’ve achieved so much in a short time
what what still excites you what would
you you know what what are your wildest
dreams into where would you like to go
in three am thoughts about you know
where what you might like to do my three
M thoughts are you know I I hope I will
still be alive and that only lasts till
half past three but then the normally
one wouldn’t digest that and so three
thirty thoughts no okay okay but no I
don’t have any I don’t really know that
I have any particular dreams I mean I
quite like that’s why I like reading
because weeding is another way like
cooking of somehow being oneself and yet
at absenting oneself at the same time so
I’m more likely to have a little
generalize and read by I do like writing
about food I sometimes thinking I’d like
to write about food in it if you were if
you were the Prime Minister dictator
total dictator of the country and you
wanted to help people’s relationship
with with food at because we’re a
troubled nation in relation to food
production and food consumption etc what
what you think would help at a sort of
really macro level things to go well in
our relationship in that would help in
so many other areas which is trying
pretend they don’t matter quite as much
and don’t worry about being judged I
feel people are so hamstrung but
worrying about how they’re judged I’m
not saying that I’m free from that
because in many ways I find public
scrutiny very very difficult but on the
other hand there’s there’s a sense in
which it’s so out of my control way I’m
liberated from it as well and we all are
because you can’t control how other
people think and thus the act of trying
to control it makes it messes up any
proper a direct line of communication
because that’s what you can hear and the
same thing about food you know if you’re
trying to impress someone just think you
know you’re keeping someone alive really
so concentrate on the ingredients forget
a little bit about the audience it’s not
so terrible to cook something that
doesn’t taste fabulous
try not to give anyone food poisoning
but I mean I’ve given you food poisoning
yeah you will have a job of course but
nevertheless the point is it’s some
basic level you’re sustaining someone
else and that’s an extraordinary thing
to be able to do I think that’s what’s
very moving about what you say because
it’s a realistic and and very humane
ideal because I think we’re all
suffering from the pressures of
perfectionism etc and I think what
people pick up I think from your work is
is a kind of acceptance of our human
reality which is very very heartwarming
on that note please join me me the green
bean thanking Nigella who is the lemon
the avocado every most gracious and
wonderful food that nature provides us
thank you so much for coming to share your wisdom
to be here I’m so nervous that I’ve not
been able to eat all day and the problem
is that I’ve been reading your books all
day so a mixture of terrified and
absolutely starving because you know
that’s what happens when you read your
books but thank you so much for coming
here and being with us you know the we
do a lot with philosophy here and the
philosopher Epicurus back in the 5th
century BC said that true philosophers
shouldn’t think very much about food all
they need he believed was bread or lives
and a bit of cheese as a treat that
seems a little bit or still what would
you recommend that philosophers now have
a taste of what if you had to design a
meal I think bread essential yeah olives
yes yeah she’s like yes I think wine and
olive oil
it’s ortant tome I think though that
there are different sorts of
philosophers and as you know in the
ancient world there’s a divergence quite
a strong divergence and those and still
those who feel that any pleasure taken
in food is giving into the animal
therefore the baser part of yourself and
those who feel that celebrating pleasure
is a way of being more truly alive and
in fact I’ve said this to you before but
I can with rather mean and say it to
save again save again which is that when
we were both young you still owe me work
I am a lot older than you but still we
were made when I did a book program yeah
a long time ago and you said I was
talking about a some food writing wasn’t
a recipe book was so rather good it was
a rather good book called the man who
wears everything by Jeffrey Steingarten
and who’s this woman has a very good
memory because this is about 18 years
ago 50 15 years ago
yeah okay and I said we use
it rather primly well during the program
I feel there is nothing good that food
nothing good where food can make things
any better and nothing bad that it make
this any better that actually you felt
it was not important in any way and I
feel you know I’ve grown nobody but it’s
interesting because for many people food
doesn’t hold any particular emotional or
emotional weight or it doesn’t seem part
of a life okay I think for those people
yeah that’s fine and I what makes me
feel slightly nervous even though I feel
to some extent I’ve contributed it to it
which is that to me Food Matters an
awful lot it matters because I like
eating and I don’t like eating if the
occasion of pleasure is not made the
most of I think perhaps I was less fussy
when I was younger but now that I’ve
probably eaten more meals and I’m going
to eat I really need to feel that
everything I eat means something to me
tell us more about award we’ll go but
but i but I do feel that what’s happened
and in the climate now in this of a
sanctimonious Buddhism which is that if
if you’re engaged with food or if you
like food or if you can cook it’s seen
as a moral value which I don’t hold with
I mean I don’t feel I’m any better for
cooking my own food than I feel I’m bad
not being able to so my own clothes I
think that that something’s gone wrong
there and I think that if you are
genuinely someone who doesn’t get
pleasure out of
then that’s as far as I see it a great
misfortune but I don’t think it’s I
don’t think it’s something to disparage
right in how to eat Italy and if at all
your work there’s there’s a lot of
sympathy for people who might want to
cook but are a bit afraid of it what
let’s consider the person who might want
to enjoy eating but is a bit afraid is
he I think that’s me at least the
younger me I was afraid to give in to
the pleasure of food thinking I tell you
what it came from it came from a sense
that if I’m really enjoying this meal
what’s the bigger purpose of my life
surely life is about bigger things than
you know taking delight in a piece of
toast or whatever surely I know now
actually as life’s got harder and as
many of the bigger projects halves come
to see more painful I’ve actually
thought well a good five minutes with
some food is as valuable as anything
else but I think it’s a valuable you see
I think that it that I think there are
various things that give food a
particular meaning and a particular
value and rather like the cherry blossom
which is very very short I think the
fact and I think you once said to me but
don’t you find with cooking you spend so
much time and it’s eaten fast that’s a
lesson I feel that life is impermanent
and that you can’t necessarily think the
pleasure you get from it at one moment
will last to another
therefore if that’s something that
happens not only every day but several
times a day that is a lesson about life
and it’s a lesson about life perhaps
you’re ready to absorb as you get older
and I also feel that I suppose when
you’re younger you have the starlet’s
need to be taken seriously and I know
that feeling and luckily I’ve outgrown
it just as well but I think you if you
get genuine pleasure from anything
you’re incredibly fortunate and
therefore to feel that there are
worthier pleasures they aren’t worthier
if they’re not authentic
you see if you sell it to me like that I
love it but if it’s simply sold as
indulgence so I like an explanation you
know somebody said ok this is a piece of
food if you can enjoy this it’s part of
enjoying the moment it’s part of
appreciating life then I’m really enjoy
but somebody says it’s just tasty or
it’s just nice and I think that may be
the way that we talk about food in our
construction uh-oh I like a bit of
didacticism well because because I think
that I think the way in which food is
framed in a culture really influences
how an individual relates to what’s in
front of them and I think in our culture
it’s seen as merely just a bit of fun
but I think what’s nice actually is to
connect it to these deeper things like
it’s about appreciation it’s about you
know connection blah blah these are
these sort of deeper things that that
are serious do we do care about I think
people do make those connections but I
think too often they make connections
with things that are positive so they so
people believe that if you like cooking
that you’re a wonderful nurturer and so
whereas the truth more often is those of
us who like feeding other people
actually a quite controlling and you
know that’s turn and a to the two can
coexist I don’t deny that but that’s
tell us tell us more about the
controlling thing so you’re you’re
saying I can’t imagine being at the
mercy of someone else telling me what I
I was going to eat whereas for a lot of
people they feel relieved if they’re not
making the decision about what there is
so if you if you’re a guest in somebody
else’s house you’re starting to get
twitchy I’m fine
oh you’re fine I’m sort of fine but if I
go and stay in someone else’s house I do
take well that’s hell anyway yeah one
should never do that but yes but it’s
not it’s so many about episode I also
think that the there are many people who
don’t really take
is about fear who date you don’t take
pleasure in food but also have a fear of
the flesh generally I mean I think it’s
something about giving in to what
certain schools of thought certain
religions have always held to be animal
tendencies and and somehow it’s in so I
have a sore throat obviously since I’m
going to be talking a lot that people
think it’s either unseemly or they are
not the Masters of their desires and
that’s quite difficult and that’s been
really generous to these people what
could we tell these people because I
think you’re absolutely right as a side
of human nature that is afraid of
pleasure so given that this exists what
would you tell these people to I feel
that perhaps I’m out or perhaps the fear
of pleasure is often a feeling that you
will be punished for it
and I think one has to remember that
it’s incredibly important to value
pleasures because they are not given
freely and they’re not always available
and it’s our duty to to take pleasure
it’s not an indulgence
it’s an acceptance of being alive and I
find that you know on you know various
questions I’m asked always one of them
is you know what are your guilty
pleasures and I always feel well the
only thing I can imagine feeling guilty
about is not taking pleasure I think
that’s wrong I mean I don’t mean ever I
think that is wrong because that’s what
they’re there for but I own but in terms
of you’ve already sort of turned it into
a more positive thing than I feel but
because I do think the fact that you
cook and then it’s demolished or the
food that isn’t demolished will perish
and therefore it is really much more
about impermanence decay it’s that very
Japanese idea of kind of wabi-sabi the
appreciation of things that are there
for only a moment and I mean it is it’s
partly that and it’s partly there’s
other sort of Zen feeling that I this is
about cooking rather than eating which
is the you know the chop wood carry
water I don’t know was it something else
you said before enlightenment chop wood
carry water offer enlightenment chop
wood carry water and I think that what I
quite like about cooking and this is a
decadent Western affluent person talking
obviously because for many people manual
labor is part difficult manual Labor’s
part of their lives but I like the
connection with the ground I’m an urban
person I like the fact that it is manual
Labor’s I live otherwise totally in my
head so I feel that that repetitive
activity so you think you’ve done it and
it comes back again you think you’ve
done it and it comes back again that
somehow is an awful lot about life and I
think to get patient and accepting about
that is difficult generally in life but
that’s where it starts for me and I mean
the virtues of that you display when
you’re cooking are things I mean you’re
very keen on connections between cooking
and the rest of life so in order to be a
good cook what can we you know what are
the what are the virtues that will make
you a good cook that could also be
applicable in other areas of life I’m
thinking of things like discipline or as
you say repetition patience I don’t well
I think unfairly but then life is unfair
unfairly the most important thing in
becoming a good cook is having a palate
and that is something you have or you
don’t have an tell tell us about that
because what I thought everyone had a
palate I mean is it is it like an ear
for music with are there people who are
literally deaf as it were TV
and tell me about these people I mean it
you’d put two different kinds of bread
they won’t notice the difference you
well I think partly it’s because food
has been used as a status symbol such a
lot that it makes people nervous of
having an authentic opinion in case it
marks them down in some way but now what
I mean by that is that we live in an age
rather unlike so many ages when we’re
all meant to be attuned to food we’re
all men to understand something about
cooking and we’re all meant to have food
represent a very important part of our
lives as well for many people that’s not
the case and therefore I don’t think you
can do anything well if you’re not
interested so that if you’re not
interested it’s really whether it’s got
that herb or another herb it doesn’t
matter and it must seem quite oppressive
if somebody is telling you what it is
very important there is I think it’s I
think it’s not just oppressive but just
beyond the realms of comprehension I
mean I’ve always thought that eaters it
was important as cooks and people who
don’t cook but every bit is important
those of us who do cook need to feed
people sure I think in terms of where I
find connections I I have a belief that
what’s true in the kitchen is true out
of the kitchen therefore when you cook
you need to have a certain amount of
respect for the rules but not so much
that you feel you have to avail all of
them you need to be able to know when
does to trust your instincts now
actually I’m not terribly good at
authority anyone else is all my own and
when I cook something from one of my own
books I hear myself saying she says put
two spoonfuls of this but I don’t want
and I realized that she is me and
that’s nothing that I I think that I
think the balance between understanding
the discipline of a form while also
allowing yourself the freedom to impose
yourself on that form is crucial let’s
talk a specific recipe and run this idea
through it so give me imagine some kind
of dish and try and tell us what in the
making of that dish belongs to the
authority and the rules you should
follow and where there’s kind of room
for maneuver and play but there’s always
room for manoeuvre playing less perhaps
you’re talking about baking video and
then so I’m talking even about a roast
chicken which I think is the fundamental
unit of cooking is it why why is that
because I think it speaks to a time
that’s probable primitive in our society
when the notion of a meal consisting of
an animal sacrifice and I apologize to
any vegetarians here was considered
important and so therefore you’re
cooking a whole animal and I think that
most of us can remember eating roast
chicken with grandmother’s or
great-grandmother’s and through our
families it’s it’s something that
doesn’t feel but the authority the
authority fear is always going to be
that you pull it out and it’s not cooked
there’s always the fear that’s not
cooked right and hard what does one do
ever before do I do with that fear but
be frightened it being overcooked keep
nothing about that what I can’t leave it
you can you know put it back in how long
does a chicken need in the oven
I can’t believe I asked that I wasn’t
mean I don’t know numbers why can’t just
right what should I do
so why not sniff it or wash it what do I
do
well I would say a pen in it what do I
do
I can’t aren’t you broad brush or I
can’t use if you wanted to enroll in a
cooking school it’s up to you okay how
long we got okay give it to me give it
give me the strict things in 30 seconds
the strict instructions what that fast
here okay roughly which roughly is yeah
don’t put it don’t ever put something
straight an animal or anything straight
from the fridge into an oven there has
to be room temperature before you start
you’ll not incidentally allowed to say
that in America because they’re so
frightened something look like about
right and it depends what temperature
you have your arm people cook according
to their temperaments that’s very
important when I talk to people are
cooking I always in if you’re someone
when you catch a train you need to get
to the station three hours three me yeah
sweet then what do you do what you do
with the chicken look in a very
different way if like what does that
mean what do you do with the chicken
I like okay so then arrived so then you
might want to start off on a one
temperature then lower it to another and
then make sure you’re going to want to
cover all your bases are going to be a
mess I like I do a very high temperature
the whole time I don’t mind a bits burn
I like that what’s your station arrival
philosophy how do you arrive late at the
station no no private the perfect time
okay
so I I feel that you have to be brave
enough Jen so with the chicken I’m gonna
tell you this no it’s on you just get a
knife or sharp thing you put it through
through this bit right and if it says
water no if it comes out clear
yeah it’s cooked if you’re having if are
using a good organic chicken it’s going
to be more muscular and it’s going the
leg meat is going to be browner and
Pinker and you all think it’s
undercooked and it isn’t and that’s fine
okay
anyway you should always take it up it
earlier and let it stand everything
cooks in its own residual heat okay that
is good sake the main point I would say
yes yeah you choose a way of cooking
that super suits you and so you were
saying it about you know how do I learn
to cook it you learn to cook it and then
you you choose whether you want to put
duck fat on it or butter or olive oil
whether you want to put salt and pepper
or whether you it’s so reassuring that’s
why people love you because you are so
reassuring you you both have authority
and yet you basically say you can do it
I mean I think it’s the encouraging tone
isn’t cooking if you’re just following a
recipe and in my first book I said you
know this is a strange thing to be
saying but you know the tyranny of the
recipe is wrong and if I am successful I
will be making myself redundant now this
is bad because I don’t know my
publishers might know how many books
I’ve written but I’ve forgotten but I
think seven or eight and I hope that the
reason why I haven’t made myself
redundant is not because people don’t
take those lessons to heart but because
people are like me and they like reading
about food so for me it’s about
prolonging the pleasure and I like
reading about food I like cooking food i
eating food I like talking about meals
I’ve eaten I like talking about meals
and going to eat so let’s talk let’s
talk ingredients because one of the
things that emerges from your book as
you say is a love of language and the
capacity of language to evoke sensory
pleasures and beauty so I just wanted to
talk about
I was the battery I come from a family
interrupt okay so I’m just going to
interrupt you if you really want to just
let’s talk over me but otherwise I want
to ask you about lemons because the
lemon is is a we are school of life
color is lemon yellow so I think the
lemons are very I want to I want to run
you through a few ingredients so what’s
tell me about lemons let’s
free-associate around lemons what is the
lemon the lemon if you’re a kind of
Thomas man Northern European yes we are
Yonex we need lemons right we it for us
it’s the exuberance of the South yeah
but I also think that the there’s such a
an almost carry on film like slavering
this about sweet people forget the
absolute exquisite pleasure of sour and
for me a lemon is about that but it’s
not it’s not hot just about the juice
and the fact that also you cook with
that because in some sense is the acid
or it could be alkaline I was a regular
science-y thing yeah of the lemon can
cook certain it does cook its the
teenagers but for me it’s about the zest
and the zest is where the oils of a
lemon lie and there is something about
smell that is that both priests and no
Howard understood that smell is very
very important and so that if I’m
cooking and I’m destined a lemon then I
feel it as well as know that I’m going
to taste it later but the feeling in the
sensing it is extraordinary important if
you had to choose one ingredient with
which to pair a lemon in a very basic
structure what would it be what you know
what goes well with a lemon at its most
basic at its most basic
there’s no such thing as at its most
basic figures but in a sense that I
think that many people would be garlic I
mean I feel that salt is probably the
essential ingredient that you add to
anything you cook it’s very
unfashionable say that but I think salt
unleashes everything tilt can we talk
for one minute about avocados because
I’m fascinated by the avocado what when
I when I mentioned avocados what what
tell me about the avocado your feelings
towards it okay my feelings towards you
have occurred
positive yeah but I I think the avocados
about texture it doesn’t actually have a
taste much and texture is
extraordinarily important in food
without tell me more about what is
technique conveyed right and so because
what do you know I don’t know if you can
remember being an infant but you’ve
certainly well and you later Agency on
you hold up yeah I can remember feeding
infants yes which is that when they
dislike a food you give them it’s
generally the texture they dislike not
the taste but the avocados fascinate
because it doesn’t taste of much but
it’s fun to eat it’s what you’re having
a good time but you’re thinking I’m not
really sure what I’m eating what does
that emerge I know I think the texture
is important I think it’s I think one
also has a sense in which it’s ancient
and I think that does matter but I I
think that that it carries flavor salt
it means salt works chili works lime
works because it’s bland
and it’s bland but it’s it’s got that
clay like texture it’s also very
beautiful and I think the aesthetic
element of food is crucial you I don’t
mean you know what a chef would call a
beautiful plate but just draw the
natural beauty of food you want to these
sort of synesthetic people who senses a
connection between foods and other
things be they sounds colors or even I
was thinking people
I mean I don’t know you know if if I was
a food
what watches what kind of a scary
dangerous game isn’t it greenbean me why
why why is that why is that why would I
be a green being partly I suppose
because you’ll see rabbinate actually
just came to my mind okay partly because
you are hesitant right as one will be
there was nothing wrong with the green
bean oh I don’t really knows the point
is I like we be young is if David if
David Cameron were a food what food
would he be this in a believable could
can you sense no but that’s like those
sort of questions that Sunday’s
okay we’ll move on but I think yeah that
food has a meaning and the interesting
thing about food is that it has a
meaning
it’s like language so there’s a language
we speak as a culture always a race or
as a country there’s a language we speak
at home which is a sort of family
language and there’s a particular
grammar of the family that means an
awful lot and there’s also one’s own
voice and therefore just as you mean I I
particular on to food because in writing
about food I felt I found my own voice
but nevertheless according to who you
are you cook in a particular way and one
of the difficulties about writing
recipes amande I always said people you
know ignore this will do this or these
inject because you do need to put
yourself there and but food is a
repository of memory and it’s a
repository of connections and I can’t I
wish I could remember exactly what the
books called I think it’s called in
memories kitchen and it’s a very
in itself it’s not moving but the fact
that exists is very moving and it’s an
account it’s a recipe book that was
concentration camp in two recent start
and she start everyone there began they
were so hungry you think they can better
think about food and I don’t know
whether it was because they felt the
hunger they needed to write down recipes
of the food they’d all cooked at home or
because they had this sense that as a
race they were being extinguished
therefore they had to memorialize those
foods but nevertheless this is just a
bare blank book of recipes well that
seems to me in terms of the meaning of
food or in terms of how we are which is
of course only imagine the rouse that
broke up in that vogue out in that
concentration camp as one person said
but I never made my dumplings like that
yeah I made them like this now and
that’s also about being alive it’s about
disagreeing and it’s about cooking in a
particular way one of the themes that in
your work is food as as a comfort as a
consolation we have that term comfort
food comfort I don’t believe in you tell
you it actually because I think what
people who come from food is is
absolutely opposite is discomfort food
the food you eat when you are hung when
you’re unhappy that doesn’t make you
feel better that is generally not even
good it’s as it’s using food as a
narcotic so what is it what is comfort
cooking yeah um I don’t think one I
don’t I don’t got well unhappy i but
anxiety is helped by cooking again
because there are steady repetitive
practices and somehow there is something
about stirring and stirring and staring
away I would a chapter about risotto one
such I called the solace of stare
and I think there is enormous comfort to
be garnered but from the eating side of
the equations there there are surely
also foods that that that do you know
press the right buttons in certain moods
no see if I yes there are and they will
different from person to person but I
also think you know in a way it’s a
Freudian thing which is that eating is
like going back to the breast so while
you’re at the breast or you’re
completely subsumed by an app’s fear of
pleasure and it’s everything is that
connection now everything else falls
away what do you think goblin is worse
when it stops what do you think governs
people’s individual food Maps what
determines whether one person is going
to like this or that how have you
observed people and it is about the food
they ate in childhood and so what’s the
relationship between childhood food and
adult taste how does it work what I’ve
got me in a sense that these things are
you know always contradictory for a lot
of people the food they long for the
food they ate in childhood all and
idealized and idealized form of that but
we’re not talking about fish fingers or
are we talk about it I mean is it is it
literature is it a child big food it
could be I suppose but it could also be
a way of rebelling against that but I
think for me for example I do it I
something that my mother was cooked
which is a I&S it’s not that it’s a
chicken and a pot really it’s on it’s
very unfashionable it’s on top of a
stove it doesn’t get a crisp skin it
looks pallid but it it’s not quite
chicken soup but it’s not quite a
braised chicken but it’s very important
and I find it important to in terms of
the units of memory and I speakers on
actually you didn’t bet you liked eating
as a child so it’s a separate thing but
I now cook it for my children now my
mother died very young my children never
got to know her so for me that’s very
part of cookie do you think this
explains some of the anxiety around
dinner parties around inviting other
people to enjoy one’s food because
precisely we all have these different
maps and it’s a sort of guesswork what
is the other person going to enjoy I was
remembering a rather unconventional
friend of mine who said that he was
going to invite people around to eat
what he ate when he was alone and so
that ended up being that everybody got a
can of tuna and a pot of taramosalata
and a bit of pita bread and that was
supper and actually wasn’t bad it was
quite fun yeah but here’s though I think
if I say this is someone who likes
cooking that if in a strange way if the
food is the most important part of a
dinner party then things aren’t working
because conversation is so important in
connections
I think that if you are not a relaxed
cook then being by your stove and being
in a state of intense stress is the
worst thing you can do and actually
almost everyone will prefer you just to
be very relaxed and thrown for a pizza
and I’m not saying that it’s not even a
comic thing I really believe it now I
happen to be prone to anxiety as a
person and yet when I cook I’m not
particularly but then I do not try and
cook things which are difficult so I’m
very happy doing something very simple
when I have people there it’s I’m not
trying to be judged through my food and
I think that for a lot of people it’s
it’s it they think it should be
performance art in some way and they
think they’re being judged and actually
what if you were all nervous because
we’re all trying to please other people
but if you convey that then no one can
enjoy anything right so if you’re in a
way deferring the attention of the
dinner party away from the food to the
next bit which is the conviviality now
what in your view is what is a good
meeting around food as you break bread
with with somebody what’s your idea of
what breaking bread with someone should
be about what should we be doing as we
eat
the food that’s been the focus that
brought us together what should we
what’s the kind of conversations we
should be having do you like to be given
rules I think I think that I enjoy
conversations which mix the intellectual
with a frivolous I’ve always slightly
thought people who have faith afraid of
frivolity weren’t the real thing so to
mark a certain mark of seriousness to be
able to but I I’m not that doesn’t mean
I want to hear what I happen on x-factor
hmm
there’s a certain kind of frivolity or
something it’s about a cast of mind and
I I think that it’s a bit like as I have
a view about relationships generally
which is a sort of Venn diagram view
which is you need a certain amount of
overlap but you definitely need that
outside bit that’s different I think
that’s what I think about all social
groupings that when I first went to
America I was so amazed I mean mere
change now that I so amazed because
people seem to know only those people
which had this saying who had the same
political views or interests
therefore they just agreed with one
another whereas I don’t think we’re
quite like so you quite like a bit of
conflict around the taking away is
conflict but I don’t call this women
conflict right
I don’t like boorishness and I don’t
like bad manners but I like discussion
yeah
then let’s switch to books because long
before you were writing about food you
were writing about books you were very
involved in in the book world if you had
to write a book called how to read
rather than how to eat what would be in
it so similar
yeah I’m sometimes but I always think
that writing and cooking are very at
and reading and eating and I don’t know
it whether this is as the synesthesia
you were speaking of but when I read I
get a profound sense of whether I like
the taste of a sentence or not I mean I
actually that’s how I experience what’s
a good what sort of sentences do you
like what’s a good sentence for you but
it really depends yeah what what have
you enjoyed recently what you know if
you imagine let’s try and imagine the
perfect Nigella novel so you’re reading
enough what sort of stuff would you like
happening in the novel would what are
the moments that you enjoy plot doesn’t
interest me enormous tear right plot
Isaac Watts boring so what do you like
what moment you’ve got lovely love that
I like I like I like people who
understand the power of language and the
feeling of language but I can’t stand
those sorts of writers and I’m not
naming them who you can actually sense
leaning back from their web processes in
the garret fine sentence right
understand that and and what’s the
equivalent in cooking of those people
the fine writers won’t think quick are
the UNK
what kind of cooking is that thing it’s
cooking that draws too much attention to
the cook and not enough to the food and
I think it’s food that it’s brought
someone not understanding that food does
not need and almost a mile of
interfering with now that’s not to say I
believe in the contemporary maxim that
you buy the most but this is you know
for people that everyone thinks is what
aliens believe and therefore if Italians
believe it it must be right but actually
it’s so nowadays people think you buy
the best ingredients you can and you do
as little as possible to them but
actually that’s not cooking and Italians
understand that too and the reality is
often cooking just means it spends more
time in the oven you don’t have to be
tap-dancing and pure wetting and doing
things – this could be a rabbit or an
import so let’s carry that thought back
to literature so what what’s these so I
think you need to fill your you’re
engaging with the real voice now there
are certain books
my reason I’m not sure that I I don’t
know if I think that’s a wonderful book
but I I feel like reading someone’s
voice like that what you what you like
reading tell tell us some writers that
you love addictive a reader to have a
but you know I can remember what I read
recently in light and I don’t know with
our like the next one so I think in
terms of taste of sentences Martin names
his sentences always taste good you
don’t think he’s a leaning back person
going look I’ve run an amazing sentence
I’m he may be busy manages to hide us
had it so well right and actually the is
he’s funny and I would agree with you so
that works me you know I like Jane
Austen sentences yeah I like Ike what I
like many writers who just need to get
that but written and my I think
sometimes it surprises me more when I
read a book I’m not sure all right
for example I read recently a book
called a tale for the time being I Ruth
ozeki she’s called and when it started I
thought is not for me but the person who
recommend to me said when it starts all
thing it’s not for me and so she kept
going on and then I just I thought I
wanted to read more but coming coming
back come back to the book that you’re
going to write called how to read or
might write what else would be in it
what else what else might you counsel
somebody who’s on the edge of literature
I think is but you see this is the thing
that is so problematic this distinction
between literature and books rise
distinction between what an aqua zine
and I wouldn’t say junk food because I I
mean but just somehow if you like low
food which is i when when you have
children you realize that unless you
warp them with your own prejudices and
obviously we all do but nevertheless a
child is my job mate would makes no
distinction in terms of the pleasure he
or she might get from it from mulier or
some McDowell’s
fries you know you like them or you
don’t like them and I think that’s
important with books so I feel that you
should never say to a child or by
extension anyone you know this is good
eat this it’s good feel or read this
it’s good whew
that when I was up when I was a child I
loved Enid Blyton and I was many parents
at that time foundation that their
children like because she wasn’t money
in but Oh once right so it’s a pleasure
from reading you get pleasure from
reading do you think that some of them
because there will be there we shouldn’t
be frightened of being judged because if
you get pleasure from something
genuinely now there’s there are two
sorts of pleasure there’s a pleasure
that lasts in your mind after you’ve
stopped eating or you’ve stopped reading
which matters more to one from the sort
of pleasure which is there and then
feels a bit shabby afterwards
so there are what’s the problem what’s
the book we’re talking about here well I
was thinking more about food than the
right books I don’t know that I don’t
know I don’t have the thing I desire
that force myself to carry on reading a
book if I feel this is really not for me
yeah um tell me about wisdom because
it’s a weird words a word that we like
at school of life but it’s a sort of
slightly disreputable word but do you
think that you’ve become wiser and if so
what what’s the wisdom you’ve picked up
in the course of your life what have you
learned that you could become someone
who sounds wiser but whether it has any
application to myself so sound a bit
wise with us
Metin tell it tell us tell us what you
you know what you think that you have
learned even though we take it for
granted we’re all crazy
life’s fragile etc but where do you feel
that you have reached insights and what
might those insights be and
I’ve lost this again let’s come back
when it’s compressed come back way um
well I don’t know because I feel I’m the
sort of person who reacts well to any
particular plea or condition rather than
I don’t have a generalized wisdom and
maybe it’s because I think a generalized
wisdom doesn’t exist so how would you
know I I can give advice why give us
some advice for the shy and the
unconfident because it is a theme that
runs through your work yes I mean this
is a bad thing say that I hate at the
time I was an incredibly shy child and
when I was 15 my mother said to me which
at the time I didn’t think was very
helpful but she said to me why are you
so shy who’s interested in you anyway
and actually at the time I did no one no
one can at the time I didn’t think it
was that helpful
however those 15 no but what I do think
is that the more you concentrate on
other people rather yourselves so when I
first started doing book signing so ever
I just felt so shy my dust
even now I do solid but then I thought
actually never mind about my shyness
actually made difficult someone else
coming up and doing that so it wasn’t
you know the thing is you know to think
of the other person what to discard
oneself and then that’s the easiest cure
for Schreiber’s the glue of course
Chinese is a form of self absorption it
doesn’t feel like that but nevertheless
it is and if you think of the other
people or the other person just one
other person and sometimes shyness is
good I think that one shouldn’t get rid
of it altogether
I find children who are never shy so
worrying right I mean it’s a bit like
that pops from some in an American
sitcom and I just feel like this isn’t
right yeah
you’ve achieved so much in a short time
what what still excites you what would
you you know what what are your wildest
dreams into where would you like to go
in three am thoughts about you know
where what you might like to do my three
M thoughts are you know I I hope I will
still be alive and that only lasts till
half past three but then the normally
one wouldn’t digest that and so three
thirty thoughts no okay okay but no I
don’t have any I don’t really know that
I have any particular dreams I mean I
quite like that’s why I like reading
because weeding is another way like
cooking of somehow being oneself and yet
at absenting oneself at the same time so
I’m more likely to have a little
generalize and read by I do like writing
about food I sometimes thinking I’d like
to write about food in it if you were if
you were the Prime Minister dictator
total dictator of the country and you
wanted to help people’s relationship
with with food at because we’re a
troubled nation in relation to food
production and food consumption etc what
what you think would help at a sort of
really macro level things to go well in
our relationship in that would help in
so many other areas which is trying
pretend they don’t matter quite as much
and don’t worry about being judged I
feel people are so hamstrung but
worrying about how they’re judged I’m
not saying that I’m free from that
because in many ways I find public
scrutiny very very difficult but on the
other hand there’s there’s a sense in
which it’s so out of my control way I’m
liberated from it as well and we all are
because you can’t control how other
people think and thus the act of trying
to control it makes it messes up any
proper a direct line of communication
because that’s what you can hear and the
same thing about food you know if you’re
trying to impress someone just think you
know you’re keeping someone alive really
so concentrate on the ingredients forget
a little bit about the audience it’s not
so terrible to cook something that
doesn’t taste fabulous
try not to give anyone food poisoning
but I mean I’ve given you food poisoning
yeah you will have a job of course but
nevertheless the point is it’s some
basic level you’re sustaining someone
else and that’s an extraordinary thing
to be able to do I think that’s what’s
very moving about what you say because
it’s a realistic and and very humane
ideal because I think we’re all
suffering from the pressures of
perfectionism etc and I think what
people pick up I think from your work is
is a kind of acceptance of our human
reality which is very very heartwarming
on that note please join me me the green
bean thanking Nigella who is the lemon
the avocado every most gracious and
wonderful food that nature provides us
thank you so much for coming to share your wisdom
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