Cheryl Strayed on Bravery

so happy to be here to be interviewing
Cheryl it feels really synchronistic
that I’m I’m here today I came across
Cheryl’s work about a year and a bit ago
where I was doing the school run for my
Penuel son and one of my friends we live
I live in a tiny little village in
Sussex and she my friend is all blotchy
she came to us it up people right it
just be weird a bit oh and my friend she
happens to be um radio for was book
editor which it’s very nice
oh yeah whatever so I took the book and
and the next time it makes the school
run that was new or blocked so the first
time I came across you you made me cry
but I just wanted to say big thank you I
think the book wild touched a nerve in
me about grief and healing that perhaps
other books have never reached for me I
lost my parents also when I was teenager
so for me to be able to read about war
grief in such a strong and beautiful way
and also showing a way out
showing somebody’s actually understood
how I was feeling it was it was just
absolute credible science really really
delighted to be talking to Cheryl today
thank you so much and so I just wanted
to so started off on the journey I just
want you to describe a scene when you
decided I am going to go off on a
journey of 1,100 miles on the Pacific
Crest Trail scribe to me the decision
that you made and why you made it well I
was at this time in my life that I
really the only way to accurately
describe it is to say I was at this
place that I think was the bottom point
I had been in deep grief over the death
of my mother she’d been dead at this
point about three and a half years and I
might by this point my marriage hadn’t
raveled I was only 26 but I got married
really young to somebody who was who I
loved who was a good person and but I
but I knew that I couldn’t
stay with him I didn’t want to stay with
him I didn’t want to be married to
anyone but that was incredibly
heartbreaking for me nonetheless because
he was the you know I loved him and he
loved me and in my sorrow I did I did
what a lot of people do I grieved in
ways that I think were noble and the
ways that we all hope that will grieve
and then I agreed in ways that were
self-destructive and and in you know in
ways that actually brought more grief
and in my case it was really promiscuous
sex and then eventually drug use I one
of the guys that I became involved with
those of you who’ve read Wilde know he
introduced me to heroin and I began he’s
in heroin and when I used you know it’s
really interesting
now the the 45 year old me can look back
on the the 20-something me and see very
clearly that that actually my impulse to
use heroin was the same impulse that
brought me to hike that trail and that I
was really seeking a cure for pain I was
trying to heal and when I used heroin it
actually the first feeling the first
feeling I had was that I was safe now
that it that I was I had escaped my
sorrow finally there was something that
could actually lift this this weight
that I was carrying and it was Planet
heroin but was it was it that was it
numbing for me it was I spent a lot of
time just numbing write whatever I could
in unhealthy and healthy ways but
whatever it was right of course it
wasn’t that but what I’ve seen is it
felt like that for a moment and of
course what what happened on that next
moment is that you know my life then
really did start falling apart in a
pretty serious way because of of drug
use and and you know so I was at this
place I was I was at the bottom full of
regret full of remorse full of you know
why am I even here and I found out I was
pregnant by the man the heroin addict
boyfriend
and that was where I just thought okay I
cannot do this I cannot live this life
this is not me and it wasn’t so much
that I felt the need to save myself
because I really felt at that time that
I was really a worthless person but I
knew that I could not my mother had
loved me too well for me to destroy
myself I couldn’t disrespect my mother
that much I I had to honor her and and I
think in some ways I thought that
self-destruction and deep grief I was
honoring my mother because I couldn’t go
on without her I couldn’t thrive and and
suddenly I had this revelation
I guess it’s it’s like that real gay
poem where you know that culminates in
the you know you must change your life
and it was that I must change my life
and and and I had to find a way I had
scattered I had to find a way to gather
and so I decided to like the Pacific
Crest Trail okay so there’s a bit of a
gap there so eat so you in this this
dark dark place and many of those would
have chosen at a counselling maybe I
know you know how did you how were you
inspired to do that why why did you
think that was the solution wet well you
know those of you who are familiar with
my dear sugar column I always tell
people to trust the gut to trust the
body the body knows and there I was
living at the time in Minnesota which is
very cold place lots of snow and there
had been a blizzard and my truck was
buried in snow and I needed to dig it
out and I went to this outdoor store
called REI to buy a shovel and when I
was waiting in line to pay for the
shovel I saw a guidebook that was the
book just said Pacific Crest Trail
Volume one California and I picked it up
I’d never heard of the Pacific Crest
Trail had any of you heard of the
Pacific Crest Trail before even many
Americans still haven’t heard it I mean
they heard of it through wild and I just
turned the back over and read this
paragraph about this trail and what
happened inside of me was I felt this
blossoming and I just thought
I this is a magnificent beautiful thing
and what if you know maybe I just need
to go to that thing attach myself to
that thing and I just trusted that
feeling even though there were you know
problems with that namely that you know
I’d never gone backpacking before and
stuff like that but I’ve always been a
little fuzzy on you know the details of
things but um the idea I’m an idea woman
you know so that’s what’s so amazing I’m
gonna do that for all and off we go and
then think oh you know what I can’t be
bothered is the kind of Joseph Campbell
thing yeah where there’s the invitation
and you like it and then there’s a
refusal like nah not really
yo you know what-what were you why did
you continue you know so you had that
moment of right this is it a blossoming
and then did you have any doubt or did
you were you very determined that you
were going to do it no I had a lot of
doubts and you know all along the way
switch off your mobile preparing I’ve
always wanted to just answer the phone
on stage from somebody and see what
happened but um preparing for the the
trip you know many people I would tell
them what I was doing and especially you
know my friends you know my friends who
had witnessed all this you know like
sleeping with you know all these people
and doing heroin and you know they’re
all freaked out by what I’ve been up to
and then I’m like okay now I’m gonna go
hide this truck and they were all saying
that they roll their eyes it’s like yeah
well they said what what do you you know
maybe are you sure you need to do this
and isn’t this dangerous and you know my
joke was always like not as dangerous as
shooting heroin but um and and it isn’t
so I highly recommend that over heroin
if any of you are but you know and then
I the time the biggest out I think was
the night before my hike when I you know
checked into this motel and looked at
all the I had to carry and I
thought maybe I didn’t think this all
the way through and so that was Tommy
about monster that introduces the
monster think most of me that made me
laugh so much is that you were there at
the first was it the first time you’d
actually packed your bag at that point
yes I I had never packed my backpack
until the day I began backpacking and
you know you’re really when you’re going
on a you know a hundred day or so
journey it is a good idea to take the
pack out on a trial run and things like
that and so I didn’t do that and III for
the first time packed my pack and not
everything would fit it was an awful lot
of stuff it and the pack was really
heavy I mean sort of unbelievably so you
know like just really wasn’t the half of
your body weight at least that I mean
what’s interesting right now
the the film of wild is being made and
they so we’ll get back to monster in a
minute but just let me tell you this bit
because people always say well how much
did your pack way and the only thing
that I did not bring on the trail was a
scale so I I don’t know how much it
weighed but it weighed a whole lot and
so right now the film of wild is being
made and Reese Witherspoon is playing me
and she’s dressed exactly like me in
1995 on the trail they have read I still
have my backpack and so they they
borrowed it and then they recreated the
pack exactly exactly the way I packed it
everything and so they have on the set
you know a few different packs for
different scenes you know in one weighs
like 25 pounds and one weighs like forty
five pounds in one weighs like sixty
five pounds and they and she wears it
depending on what she’s doing and so at
one point I was like well we I think she
should wear the heaviest pack in the
scene and so they they had me go like
show her how to I put it on and I lifted
it and it was
like no problem sixty-five pounds and my
pack was so my back was definitely at
heavier it’s like 80 85 maybe 90 just
the water alone on the first day was
twenty four pounds just the water
everything else was so um it was a lot
and I had been out on the trail a few
days when the I gave the packing
nicknamed monster and I’d referred to it
as monster and you know I didn’t know
later that I would write a book about it
and it would be actually have sort of
metaphorical residence too that I’m
walking along with the monster you know
on my back like we all do um in life
yeah yeah well the irony is is you have
your book inspired me so much that last
summer I decided I was going to take my
own trek down the Cornwall coast and
like you I packed my bag with my tent I
lasted half a day before I put my tent
up at the one I said I used to walk and
then get the bus back I didn’t take the
but there were no buses on the PCT sadly
but yeah it was hard wasn’t it it was
really really hard and you know but one
of the things I really resonated with
you made the decision to go and there
was a quote in the book it say I could
go back in the direction I had come from
well I could go forward in that
direction I intended to go and it was a
decision you made and I think when when
you know it’s it’s that decision that
you’ve made you’ve lost your mum there’s
two ways you can go you can go down
self-destruction heroin there are spiral
down or you can go on the PCT and you
can go and walk along those tell me
about that decision that you made it
where did you find how did you talked
about that blossoming but where did you
find that kind of the wisdom or the
knowledge that that to keep on walking
to take those steps and not get the bus
I don’t really know but I know that I
know a few things one is that you know
that that seemed that the line you quote
what’s just happened right before I
wrote that line is I’ve just
been basically almost mauled by a Texas
Longhorn bull and in the final moment as
this ball is you know approaching me I’m
so afraid that I closed my eyes because
I can’t bear to look at this bull and
the fate I mean it’s like this I don’t
know if any of you have ever seen a
Texas Longhorn bull it’s a very very
gigantic thing with horns okay and it’s
scary and so I close my eyes that I blew
the whistle the world’s loudest whistle
really loud and I when I open my eyes
the bull is not there and so then the
question is well which way is the bull
and okay whatever way the bull is I
don’t want to walk in that direction
okay so and that’s and in the book you
know now after years of thinking about
this moment I understood it I understood
it’s metaphorical resonance with I said
I essentially all of us everyone in this
room like what we always have to do and
the deal is is that there’s no escaping
the bull
you know the bull is in every direction
and I think that when we try to escape
suffering or try to escape fear or
discomfort or truce or any of those
things that can be difficult we think
okay that’s that’s over there so I’m
going to go this way but guess what it’s
that way and until you kind of just
decide that you can give yourself over
to walking in the direction of the bull
you’re never going to you’re never going
to do what you need to do I think as a
human to evolve and so I think that I
don’t know if that answers your question
really exactly but I guess I started to
learn that at some point what I’m
hearing you say is that peace around
it’s not overcoming fear we never
overcome our fear or grief we don’t know
convert we just learn to be with it
mm-hmm and I think my mistake has been
trying to escape grief or trying to
escape fear anything rather than being
the run away from the bull as fast as I
can but then there’s the ball and there
he is I know and that’s it before we
came out here we talked about you know
losing our parents and how you know so
much of understanding grief had to do
with understanding that we would always
have it yeah you know that we were back
there getting tears in our eyes talking
about our mothers and there it was you
know our moms have been dead more than
20 years and there it still is and I
think that except you know giving
yourself into that and saying this is
this isn’t something that’s going to go
away there’s something that will always
be with me
and learning how to live with it is a
more healing and powerful experience
than than escaping it yeah I mean you
talk I think India sugars this idea of
reaching you you were a mentor for some
young teenage girls this is a brilliant
piece and only tiny beautiful things and
you say to them reach you have to do
more than hold on you have to find a way
within yourself to not only escape the
but transcend it and I just for me again I was like welling up crying once again
I was like welling up crying once again to but it’s that that piece around we
to but it’s that that piece around we can’t escape it we can’t wriggle out
can’t escape it we can’t wriggle out away we can’t get out the way of grief
away we can’t get out the way of grief or the darkness but we have to find a
or the darkness but we have to find a way to transcend it right somehow and I
way to transcend it right somehow and I suppose what my question is is how do we
suppose what my question is is how do we do that well what would your advice to
do that well what would your advice to us be how do we reach how do we
us be how do we reach how do we transcend that yes acceptance but it’s
transcend that yes acceptance but it’s always there but then then where do we
always there but then then where do we go yes acceptance that it’s there beside
go yes acceptance that it’s there beside us but then we’re I think so I was going
us but then we’re I think so I was going to say acceptance surrender but I think
to say acceptance surrender but I think the other thing is and here again so
the other thing is and here again so much of the the advice I give is sugar
much of the the advice I give is sugar you know is advice of the spirit rather
you know is advice of the spirit rather than do this and this and then this it’s
than do this and this and then this it’s rather a sort of bigger more Universal
rather a sort of bigger more Universal advice which has to do with taking
advice which has to do with taking responsibility for your life and so yeah
responsibility for your life and so yeah on the trail you know the thing I had to
on the trail you know the thing I had to do was just keep moving forward even
do was just keep moving forward even when it was painful and I think that
when it was painful and I think that that was in that physically enacting
that was in that physically enacting what I need that we ought what we all
what I need that we ought what we all need to do
need to do over and over again when we have
over and over again when we have something that’s difficult and so I
something that’s difficult and so I think transcending and in reaching and
think transcending and in reaching and in that column you refer to which is
in that column you refer to which is called how you get unstuck what I’m
called how you get unstuck what I’m saying to these teenage girls these
saying to these teenage girls these teenage girls have every reason to fail
teenage girls have every reason to fail they have every reason to to you know
they have every reason to to you know become pregnant at 15 or go to prison or
become pregnant at 15 or go to prison or you know whatever it is that that their
you know whatever it is that that their parents most of them had done they could
parents most of them had done they could blame their abusive parents they could
blame their abusive parents they could blame poverty they could blame any
blame poverty they could blame any number of social factors but ultimately
number of social factors but ultimately in that column what I said and what I
in that column what I said and what I said to the girls I worked with is you
said to the girls I worked with is you know you have to be the person who
know you have to be the person who changes your life nobody will ever
changes your life nobody will ever change your life for you you have to be
change your life for you you have to be that person and so transcending has to
that person and so transcending has to do I think with taking responsibility
do I think with taking responsibility that word means moving from one realm to
that word means moving from one realm to another you know and so your life is
another you know and so your life is here and if you want it to be there
here and if you want it to be there you’re the one who has to get it there
you’re the one who has to get it there and there are a whole bunch of things
and there are a whole bunch of things you need to do to make that happen it
you need to do to make that happen it doesn’t have to do with you know sitting
doesn’t have to do with you know sitting around saying over and over again that
around saying over and over again that you want to go there it has to do with
you want to go there it has to do with walking yourself there one step at a
walking yourself there one step at a time I think we’re working with those
time I think we’re working with those girls was so fascinating to me because
girls was so fascinating to me because we would do this career day and they
we would do this career day and they would we would they would get to write
would we would they would get to write down on a piece of paper what they
down on a piece of paper what they wanted to be when they grow up and then
wanted to be when they grow up and then tape it to their shirts and then we
tape it to their shirts and then we would you know talk to them about that
would you know talk to them about that career and it was always they all wanted
career and it was always they all wanted to be pediatricians or marine biologists
to be pediatricians or marine biologists pretty much all of them and and but then
pretty much all of them and and but then they hated school and they would never
they hated school and they would never do their homework and they would never
do their homework and they would never do any of those things and so I would
do any of those things and so I would say well how are you going to you know
say well how are you going to you know you don’t just like grab a bunny out of
you don’t just like grab a bunny out of a hat and then you’re a pediatrician
a hat and then you’re a pediatrician like how are you going to do that and I
like how are you going to do that and I think that that has to do with that
think that that has to do with that taking responsibility peace that one
taking responsibility peace that one step at a time peace I think it’s a
step at a time peace I think it’s a taking responsibility but then I think
taking responsibility but then I think it is that what so I think inspiring
it is that what so I think inspiring about the journey and wild it was
about the journey and wild it was literally one physical step at a time
literally one physical step at a time it’s a very simple message in a way it
it’s a very simple message in a way it is so simple okay I can’t do this well
is so simple okay I can’t do this well you can take a step though you can and
you can take a step though you can and then you can take another one even if
then you can take another one even if you have got a monster on your back and
you have got a monster on your back and I’m
I’m trail one of the most I think useful
trail one of the most I think useful things and powerful things for me was
things and powerful things for me was that I was you know I was the person who
that I was you know I was the person who every consequence I was someone who paid
every consequence I was someone who paid the full price every day I paid the
the full price every day I paid the consequences ever every action I had the
consequences ever every action I had the consequence and sometimes it was a
consequence and sometimes it was a positive one and sometimes a negative
positive one and sometimes a negative one but it was just me and myself and I
one but it was just me and myself and I wasn’t depending on anyone else there
wasn’t depending on anyone else there was really important for me to go along
was really important for me to go along but I think again the story again why
but I think again the story again why it’s so inspiring is it’s that it’s the
it’s so inspiring is it’s that it’s the story of the orphan who learns to stand
story of the orphan who learns to stand on her own two feet and to be strong
on her own two feet and to be strong again and I think no there’s maybe the
again and I think no there’s maybe the proverbial orphan yeah in all of us who
proverbial orphan yeah in all of us who were learning how to how to you know how
were learning how to how to you know how to take a step and how to learn that we
to take a step and how to learn that we are strong despite facing all the
are strong despite facing all the difficulties that you may face in life
difficulties that you may face in life right it’s it’s wonderful in terms of
right it’s it’s wonderful in terms of you did rattlesnakes you did bad did the
you did rattlesnakes you did bad did the scary campers scary I mean did you ever
scary campers scary I mean did you ever feel I don’t know what I’m going to do
feel I don’t know what I’m going to do now did you know I mean I know from
now did you know I mean I know from reading the book mm-hmm
reading the book mm-hmm the answer to that but tell me a little
the answer to that but tell me a little bit about the those moments of intense
bit about the those moments of intense fear yeah at the right there were a few
fear yeah at the right there were a few and I always felt like I wanted to run
and I always felt like I wanted to run away shrieking you know and I instead
away shrieking you know and I instead had to sit quietly and figure out my way
had to sit quietly and figure out my way through it and and I think that that um
through it and and I think that that um you know doubt I mean I think sometimes
you know doubt I mean I think sometimes when we think about you know whether it
when we think about you know whether it be like people will say oh you’re right
be like people will say oh you’re right so you’re so brave on the page and I’m
so you’re so brave on the page and I’m always like I’m terrified I’m actually
always like I’m terrified I’m actually terrified writing that stuff and I think
terrified writing that stuff and I think that we have you know all all of us in
that we have you know all all of us in some ways misinterpreted you know how
some ways misinterpreted you know how we’re supposed to feel it when it comes
we’re supposed to feel it when it comes to things like fear you know I I wasn’t
to things like fear you know I I wasn’t courageous on the PCT I was often afraid
courageous on the PCT I was often afraid but I think getting used to fear or
but I think getting used to fear or saying okay I’m afraid of this and I can
saying okay I’m afraid of this and I can to keep going this was a big you know I
to keep going this was a big you know I was facing that almost every day and
was facing that almost every day and fear of things like um you know I think
fear of things like um you know I think we think of rattlesnakes is scary
we think of rattlesnakes is scary right but really the scariest situation
right but really the scariest situation I was probably in on my hike was when I
I was probably in on my hike was when I ran out of water you know that was a
ran out of water you know that was a like I was terrified
like I was terrified I knew the consequences of that and they
I knew the consequences of that and they were grave you know and so I think that
were grave you know and so I think that that I was in some ways looking for that
that I was in some ways looking for that too you know when I say when I said that
too you know when I say when I said that you know decided to use heroin it was
you know decided to use heroin it was like hiking the trail in one way and
like hiking the trail in one way and that is you know I was in some ways
that is you know I was in some ways needing to test myself against something
needing to test myself against something which is a really ancient human as you
which is a really ancient human as you know story where you know that the
know story where you know that the hero’s journey has to do with going into
hero’s journey has to do with going into the darkness and facing the demons in
the darkness and facing the demons in the Dragons and and coming back from
the Dragons and and coming back from that experience changed and I was aware
that experience changed and I was aware that that’s you know I was giving myself
that that’s you know I was giving myself my own rite of passage yeah you know our
my own rite of passage yeah you know our culture’s have kind of missed that
culture’s have kind of missed that I think but do you think it needs to be
I think but do you think it needs to be that scary or can some of us just get
that scary or can some of us just get the boss thank you you have to take the
the boss thank you you have to take the bus yeah no I
bus yeah no I that’s what’s have been so cool is it’s
that’s what’s have been so cool is it’s not I mean the other thing is to you
not I mean the other thing is to you know many many people have taken far you
know many many people have taken far you know greater adventures than mine like I
know greater adventures than mine like I don’t the point of wild is not like look
don’t the point of wild is not like look at me I did this incredible thing you
at me I did this incredible thing you know I actually did a very you know I
know I actually did a very you know I mean many people have have hiked better
mean many people have have hiked better and further you know braver but the
and further you know braver but the point is look at that this is the
point is look at that this is the journey I went on and I think that
journey I went on and I think that people’s everyone’s journey can look a
people’s everyone’s journey can look a different way you know and I get so many
different way you know and I get so many emails from people saying well just like
emails from people saying well just like you said oh I took this 50 mile hike in
you said oh I took this 50 mile hike in this place or I did this you know people
this place or I did this you know people make it their own and it’s really about
make it their own and it’s really about the journey yeah yeah you talked about
the journey yeah yeah you talked about being brave on the page and so you’ve
being brave on the page and so you’ve written about the trail after you’ve
written about the trail after you’ve taken the actual journey and you’re
taken the actual journey and you’re brave how how how have you done that you
brave how how how have you done that you know in terms of literally being brave
know in terms of literally being brave on the page I mean the thing that’s so
on the page I mean the thing that’s so attractive about the book that you want
attractive about the book that you want to just you can’t leave it it’s because
to just you can’t leave it it’s because it’s so raw and it’s so devastating
it’s so raw and it’s so devastating almost the way you write and you’ve been
almost the way you write and you’ve been so vulnerable on the page so brave on
so vulnerable on the page so brave on the page but how how could you do that
the page but how how could you do that you know
you know having so much time brass or is it
having so much time brass or is it because so much time has passed that you
because so much time has passed that you were able to do that right you know I
were able to do that right you know I think um yeah I didn’t think I was going
think um yeah I didn’t think I was going to write about my hike until I did I
to write about my hike until I did I began writing the book in 2008 and you
began writing the book in 2008 and you know I’m just as a writer I think really
know I’m just as a writer I think really or the writers job is to tell the truth
or the writers job is to tell the truth it’s it’s it and and not just the truth
it’s it’s it and and not just the truth but the deepest truth the deepest truth
but the deepest truth the deepest truth that can be possibly uncovered the this
that can be possibly uncovered the this the darkest and brightest place that we
the darkest and brightest place that we can go I think that that’s what artists
can go I think that that’s what artists do that’s what they show to us that’s
do that’s what they show to us that’s what they reveal to us and so I really
what they reveal to us and so I really feel that that’s my job as a writer
feel that that’s my job as a writer whether I’m writing about a fictional
whether I’m writing about a fictional character or myself to go to all of
character or myself to go to all of those places and you know if you don’t
those places and you know if you don’t do that you haven’t done your work and I
do that you haven’t done your work and I think that that’s connected to the
think that that’s connected to the reason that I didn’t feel like writing
reason that I didn’t feel like writing about my hike until I did that I needed
about my hike until I did that I needed to to come to that place as a writer to
to to come to that place as a writer to learn you know just to apprentice myself
learn you know just to apprentice myself to the gaffed for a number of years and
to the gaffed for a number of years and also I had to gain some perspective on
also I had to gain some perspective on that person I was at 26 yeah I began
that person I was at 26 yeah I began writing it when I was like 38 or 39 and
writing it when I was like 38 or 39 and I could look back I was in a very
I could look back I was in a very different place I could look back at
different place I could look back at myself it with a you know both this
myself it with a you know both this objective lens but in some ways an
objective lens but in some ways an objective one too and and so that’s you
objective one too and and so that’s you know I waited because I needed to gain
know I waited because I needed to gain that perspective and also my first book
that perspective and also my first book is a novel called torch and that was the
is a novel called torch and that was the book that I had to write I couldn’t
book that I had to write I couldn’t think about writing anything until I got
think about writing anything until I got that out of my system
that out of my system and that book is going to be published
and that book is going to be published in the UK yes here and a few months that
in the UK yes here and a few months that one book I haven’t read out of your so
one book I haven’t read out of your so I’m looking forward to reading that so
I’m looking forward to reading that so when you were writing sort of 21 20
when you were writing sort of 21 20 years on now from when you were 18 years
years on now from when you were 18 years on 18 Yin I mean since the hike yeah so
on 18 Yin I mean since the hike yeah so happy looking back do you think what did
happy looking back do you think what did you learn on the hike and have you put
you learn on the hike and have you put those lessons into action 20 years on
those lessons into action 20 years on you you know you look about the way
you you know you look about the way you’re living your life have you are you
you’re living your life have you are you living breathing those essence now yes I
living breathing those essence now yes I mean that that is the thing
mean that that is the thing about any difficult any any difficult
about any difficult any any difficult experience or beautiful experience or
experience or beautiful experience or you know life-altering experiences that
you know life-altering experiences that you carry it with you yeah you know you
you carry it with you yeah you know you carry it with you into your life and
carry it with you into your life and you’re forever changed because of it and
you’re forever changed because of it and so there’s no question in my mind that
so there’s no question in my mind that you know everyday I mean there are all
you know everyday I mean there are all these places I mean I think that that I
these places I mean I think that that I would still be where I am
would still be where I am had I not hike the PCT but I had to have
had I not hike the PCT but I had to have some journey like that I had to have
some journey like that I had to have some big experience to shake myself back
some big experience to shake myself back into my real life for the person I
into my real life for the person I needed to be and you think the
needed to be and you think the wilderness what part did the wilderness
wilderness what part did the wilderness and I mean your story I mean we we did a
and I mean your story I mean we we did a whole dossier at psychologies magazine
whole dossier at psychologies magazine around wilderness it was inspired by
around wilderness it was inspired by your book you know I wrote about you in
your book you know I wrote about you in the Sunday Times inspired by your book I
the Sunday Times inspired by your book I want to thank you it’s so but I do feel
want to thank you it’s so but I do feel like the wilderness is a very you know
like the wilderness is a very you know even though I was getting the but it was
even though I was getting the but it was still I was on the coast of Cornwall
still I was on the coast of Cornwall going up and down I know I love the
going up and down I know I love the wilderness here there’s a bus yeah right
wilderness here there’s a bus yeah right kind of wilderness you need love can I
kind of wilderness you need love can I just say but tell me a little bit what
just say but tell me a little bit what what role do you think the wilderness
what role do you think the wilderness plays in your healing or why do you
plays in your healing or why do you think it’s healing I think that it’s
think it’s healing I think that it’s well just I mean how do you all feel
well just I mean how do you all feel when you go into the wilderness that you
when you go into the wilderness that you just feel kind of healed you know I
just feel kind of healed you know I think that when we put ourselves in the
think that when we put ourselves in the company of the derivative of the divine
company of the derivative of the divine which I think the wilderness is the
which I think the wilderness is the magnificent the bigger than us we feel
magnificent the bigger than us we feel humble and we feel grace filled and we
humble and we feel grace filled and we feel restored and serene and all of
feel restored and serene and all of those things I mean unless you’re
those things I mean unless you’re flipping out because there’s a
flipping out because there’s a rattlesnake at your feet but you know
rattlesnake at your feet but you know you feel those things and so I knew you
you feel those things and so I knew you know when I grown up in northern
know when I grown up in northern Minnesota for my teen years when I was
Minnesota for my teen years when I was 12 my stepfather who was a carpenter
12 my stepfather who was a carpenter fell from a roof and broke his back and
fell from a roof and broke his back and we lived at the time this little town
we lived at the time this little town outside of Minneapolis and
outside of Minneapolis and my stepfather had been working under the
my stepfather had been working under the table which means you know none he
table which means you know none he wasn’t like document I mean he wasn’t
wasn’t like document I mean he wasn’t officially being paid by his boss and so
officially being paid by his boss and so when he fell from the roof and broke his
when he fell from the roof and broke his back his boss said I don’t know that man
back his boss said I don’t know that man he didn’t work for me and there was it
he didn’t work for me and there was it was a terrible difficult year of my
was a terrible difficult year of my stepfather was laid up and you know with
stepfather was laid up and you know with a broken back for a year and my mother
a broken back for a year and my mother at the time was working as a secretary
at the time was working as a secretary for an attorney and the attorney said
for an attorney and the attorney said I’ll bring a suit against your your
I’ll bring a suit against your your husband’s boss and you know you guys can
husband’s boss and you know you guys can get a settlement and my and they won the
get a settlement and my and they won the settlement and my parents got $12,000
settlement and my parents got $12,000 and we repor and it was really the the
and we repor and it was really the the only money that my that they knew they
only money that my that they knew they knew that was the only time they would
knew that was the only time they would have any bit of money to buy some land
have any bit of money to buy some land and so they did they went to northern
and so they did they went to northern Minnesota land was really cheap it still
Minnesota land was really cheap it still is really cheap and for $12,000 they
is really cheap and for $12,000 they bought 40 acres of land that nobody had
bought 40 acres of land that nobody had ever lived on wilderness woods cold
ever lived on wilderness woods cold really cold and we moved onto this land
really cold and we moved onto this land and we lived it in one room tarpaper
and we lived it in one room tarpaper Shack that my stepfather built my family
Shack that my stepfather built my family of five and we built our house nearby
of five and we built our house nearby and we lived in this house we didn’t
and we lived in this house we didn’t have electricity or indoor plumbing or
have electricity or indoor plumbing or running water or anything all through my
running water or anything all through my teen years Wow
teen years Wow we would you know heat up we our wood
we would you know heat up we our wood stove was a metal barrel a 55-gallon
stove was a metal barrel a 55-gallon barrel that my stepfather had used his
barrel that my stepfather had used his his blowtorch and made into a wood stove
his blowtorch and made into a wood stove yeah and we lived this way and this kind
yeah and we lived this way and this kind of back-to-the-land way my mom grew a
of back-to-the-land way my mom grew a lot of our food and made our clothes and
lot of our food and made our clothes and you know did all of that stuff and um
you know did all of that stuff and um and I think in so many ways so the
and I think in so many ways so the wilderness was home to me yeah and when
wilderness was home to me yeah and when my mom died things happened with my
my mom died things happened with my stepfather that made it so that that
stepfather that made it so that that place that home that we built together
place that home that we built together was not my home anymore was not I was
was not my home anymore was not I was exiled from this place and by my
exiled from this place and by my stepfather got involved with another
stepfather got involved with another woman pretty quickly after my mom died
woman pretty quickly after my mom died and
and she didn’t really want us my siblings
she didn’t really want us my siblings and I around and so you know it was lost
and I around and so you know it was lost to me and you know all these years later
to me and you know all these years later when I was writing wild is when I
when I was writing wild is when I understood that that in some ways when I
understood that that in some ways when I decided to hike the PCT I was turning to
decided to hike the PCT I was turning to her even though it was a foreign home
her even though it was a foreign home you know it was this other place I knew
you know it was this other place I knew that it was a place that I could be safe
that it was a place that I could be safe and find myself again yeah and it was a
and find myself again yeah and it was a place that was familiar it was that
place that was familiar it was that comfort yeah and even though it was a
comfort yeah and even though it was a different I mean so I didn’t have that
different I mean so I didn’t have that sort of City idea
sort of City idea I was I was afraid of the city actually
I was I was afraid of the city actually when I went to college in the Twin
when I went to college in the Twin Cities
Cities that’s Minneapolis and st. Paul in
that’s Minneapolis and st. Paul in Minnesota I was you know terrified of
Minnesota I was you know terrified of all the city people cuz they did City
all the city people cuz they did City things like they drove fast you know
things like they drove fast you know yeah I mean I read I’m aware of Redax I
yeah I mean I read I’m aware of Redax I did a little bit research but this thing
did a little bit research but this thing around you knew you wanted to be a
around you knew you wanted to be a writer even though you were brought up
writer even though you were brought up in a kind of your were think uneducated
in a kind of your were think uneducated way but in a way the way your mother
way but in a way the way your mother brought you up was incredibly creative
brought you up was incredibly creative yes you know it may be that she you know
yes you know it may be that she you know you wouldn’t perhaps have posh drinks
you wouldn’t perhaps have posh drinks that’s right so she would put something
that’s right so she would put something in the water and say we put a lot of
in the water and say we put a lot of beer
beer uh-huh you know um darling let’s have
uh-huh you know um darling let’s have some pain she would speak in a British
some pain she would speak in a British accent because did you because you don’t
accent because did you because you don’t charge America’s anything British is
charge America’s anything British is instantly like more sophisticated uhm
instantly like more sophisticated uhm but yeah we didn’t there would be times
but yeah we didn’t there would be times that we didn’t have sugar we and my
that we didn’t have sugar we and my mother would put food coloring in the
mother would put food coloring in the water and she would be miss Bettina
water and she would be miss Bettina Vaughn so and so and she would um she
Vaughn so and so and she would um she would say darling would you like I won’t
would say darling would you like I won’t do my British accent to you guys um but
do my British accent to you guys um but would you like another you know and we
would you like another you know and we would do this fan pretend drinks but
would do this fan pretend drinks but that was my mom you know and that was
that was my mom you know and that was she brought magic into our lives and she
she brought magic into our lives and she would always say and which made me when
would always say and which made me when I was a teenager want to like smother
I was a teenager want to like smother her but she would say we aren’t poor
her but she would say we aren’t poor were rich in love and you know she was
were rich in love and you know she was very looking on the bright side and
very looking on the bright side and which you know when you’re 17 you do not
which you know when you’re 17 you do not appreciate right
appreciate right and but I mean as is the case maybe some
and but I mean as is the case maybe some of you have found this to be true in
of you have found this to be true in your life to that you know you look back
your life to that you know you look back on some of those things that your
on some of those things that your parents said to you or you know annoyed
parents said to you or you know annoyed you about or whatever and then you you
you about or whatever and then you you grow older and you look back and you see
grow older and you look back and you see that they’ve they’ve actually were right
that they’ve they’ve actually were right and that they actually had to do the
and that they actually had to do the tools for your own survival and I think
tools for your own survival and I think that that’s really the case and with my
that that’s really the case and with my mother you know that her optimism
mother you know that her optimism eventually became you know the worldview
eventually became you know the worldview that I had to take on and and also you
that I had to take on and and also you know she made us feel rich we were rich
know she made us feel rich we were rich in love yeah we were and and you know I
in love yeah we were and and you know I have friends who were rich in material
have friends who were rich in material and and poor in love and I wouldn’t
and and poor in love and I wouldn’t trade places with them for anything I
trade places with them for anything I think what was really interesting as
think what was really interesting as well for me was this idea of how she
well for me was this idea of how she created a an environment where
created a an environment where creativity buttoned down
creativity buttoned down and so in perhaps in your environment it
and so in perhaps in your environment it was it wasn’t the done thing to be a
was it wasn’t the done thing to be a writer perhaps you would move it be you
writer perhaps you would move it be you both went to college together didn’t you
both went to college together didn’t you at the same time that right yeah we did
at the same time that right yeah we did so how that happened so when I went you
so how that happened so when I went you know I I always knew I wanted to be a
know I I always knew I wanted to be a writer from the very first time I could
writer from the very first time I could read I just was I mean I I distinctly
read I just was I mean I I distinctly remember the moment you know it was an
remember the moment you know it was an epiphany and I I did my family didn’t go
epiphany and I I did my family didn’t go to church but I was I spent the night
to church but I was I spent the night with a friend on a Saturday night and
with a friend on a Saturday night and when I woke up on Sunday morning her
when I woke up on Sunday morning her family attended a Lutheran Church and so
family attended a Lutheran Church and so I had to go with them and we were put
I had to go with them and we were put off into the Sunday school and there was
off into the Sunday school and there was this little pamphlet that they handed
this little pamphlet that they handed out to all the kids and it was really a
out to all the kids and it was really a chapbook of watercolors and each
chapbook of watercolors and each watercolor was accompanied by a little
watercolor was accompanied by a little poem that was about you know the sort of
poem that was about you know the sort of God’s glory in the natural world like
God’s glory in the natural world like the you know little riffs on butterflies
the you know little riffs on butterflies and sunsets and flowers and I remember
and sunsets and flowers and I remember reading it and thinking I mean just
reading it and thinking I mean just being pierced by the beauty I mean
being pierced by the beauty I mean really pierced by the beauty of those
really pierced by the beauty of those words and what words could do which was
words and what words could do which was make a feeling in the picture and I
make a feeling in the picture and I to do that I wanted to be a person in
to do that I wanted to be a person in the world who who made Beauty have
the world who who made Beauty have language six-six and I just thought I
language six-six and I just thought I have to do this thing and I’d never
have to do this thing and I’d never thought it’d ever like it wasn’t it I
thought it’d ever like it wasn’t it I didn’t know that I someone like me could
didn’t know that I someone like me could actually be a writer I thought I didn’t
actually be a writer I thought I didn’t know what the route was but I knew that
know what the route was but I knew that college would be part of it but so when
college would be part of it but so when I was in high school nobody told me you
I was in high school nobody told me you know what you need to do to go to
know what you need to do to go to college and so when I was in my senior
college and so when I was in my senior year in high school I just started to
year in high school I just started to get brochures from colleges they start
get brochures from colleges they start to you know send you things and I didn’t
to you know send you things and I didn’t know it was a competitive process really
know it was a competitive process really that you should apply to more than one
that you should apply to more than one or anything and so I just lined up the
or anything and so I just lined up the brochures on my table and I looked at
brochures on my table and I looked at the pictures and the one that looked the
the pictures and the one that looked the least weird you know was the one I
least weird you know was the one I applied to and it was the college of st.
applied to and it was the college of st. Thomas which is a private Catholic
Thomas which is a private Catholic school private and public means
school private and public means different things here right yeah it
different things here right yeah it means it cost a lot of money private
means it cost a lot of money private Catholic University in Saint Paul
Catholic University in Saint Paul Minnesota and when they accepted me they
Minnesota and when they accepted me they were trying to woo me to come there
were trying to woo me to come there because they didn’t realize that you
because they didn’t realize that you know they were they were the only game
know they were they were the only game in town for me
in town for me and um they said one of the things if
and um they said one of the things if you go your parents can go to college
you go your parents can go to college for free and you know they were thinking
for free and you know they were thinking like somebody’s mom would take like
like somebody’s mom would take like French you know 101 or something but my
French you know 101 or something but my mother saw this and she said I’ve always
mother saw this and she said I’ve always wanted to go to college and I said no
wanted to go to college and I said no way
because would any of you at the age of 17 have volunteered to bring your mom
17 have volunteered to bring your mom raise raise your hand raise your hand if
raise raise your hand raise your hand if you wanted to bring your mom so I was
you wanted to bring your mom so I was like no way you’re not going to college
like no way you’re not going to college with me get that idea out of your head
with me get that idea out of your head and then you know what what happened is
and then you know what what happened is of course you know there’s the true
of course you know there’s the true thing which is no way
thing which is no way and then there’s the true thing which is
and then there’s the true thing which is my mother has given me so much and then
my mother has given me so much and then the truest thing is that you know that I
the truest thing is that you know that I couldn’t stand in the way of her
couldn’t stand in the way of her opportunity and so I said to her you can
opportunity and so I said to her you can go to college with me with one rule is
go to college with me with one rule is that should we ever encounter each other
that should we ever encounter each other on campus she cannot show any
on campus she cannot show any recognition do not address me do not
recognition do not address me do not twice just keep on going off and she was
twice just keep on going off and she was like okay that’s fine and she was so
like okay that’s fine and she was so respectful that this was this moment in
respectful that this was this moment in my life where I needed to separate you
my life where I needed to separate you know she was serially and she was 40 and
know she was serially and she was 40 and I just remember thinking I can’t believe
I just remember thinking I can’t believe somebody so ancient is going to college
somebody so ancient is going to college and and and so we went that first year
and and and so we went that first year together and it wasn’t a good fit for me
together and it wasn’t a good fit for me I was paying my own way through and it
I was paying my own way through and it was just too expensive and it was a
was just too expensive and it was a conservative school and and you know I
conservative school and and you know I was a writer and so I went to my mom and
was a writer and so I went to my mom and said look I need to I’m going to
said look I need to I’m going to transfer and she said you know that’s
transfer and she said you know that’s fine I’ll transfer to and so she did and
fine I’ll transfer to and so she did and we went to the same we went to the
we went to the same we went to the University of Minnesota but thankfully
University of Minnesota but thankfully there were more than there’s more than
there were more than there’s more than one campus so I went in Minneapolis and
one campus so I went in Minneapolis and she went up in Duluth which was nearer
she went up in Duluth which was nearer our house about an hour and a half away
our house about an hour and a half away from our house I mean what occurs to me
from our house I mean what occurs to me as you’re talking is I mean you had that
as you’re talking is I mean you had that lovely time yeah you know use your
lovely time yeah you know use your teenage mother yeah type of relationship
teenage mother yeah type of relationship but you had a fantastic relationship
but you had a fantastic relationship with mother as you’ve told in wild how
with mother as you’ve told in wild how do you think that has impacted the way
do you think that has impacted the way you are a mother today you think you
you are a mother today you think you know for me I think I apparent just like
know for me I think I apparent just like my mother which is terrible to go up for
my mother which is terrible to go up for you how do you parent your children
you how do you parent your children because you’ve got two children yes I
because you’ve got two children yes I have two kids
have two kids I feel like did I parent them very much
I feel like did I parent them very much the way my mom parented me my kids have
the way my mom parented me my kids have a profoundly different life than I had
a profoundly different life than I had um as a kid they just you know do you
um as a kid they just you know do you think that’s a good thing I do I do i
think that’s a good thing I do I do i worry you know I mean I feel like so
worry you know I mean I feel like so much of of ever you know so much of Who
much of of ever you know so much of Who I am was kind of learned through my
I am was kind of learned through my hardscrabble childhood yeah I mean I
hardscrabble childhood yeah I mean I grew up in poverty you know I learned a
grew up in poverty you know I learned a lot from that um and my kids you know
lot from that um and my kids you know just have a diminutive to parents who
just have a diminutive to parents who have master’s degrees in the arts you
have master’s degrees in the arts you know their father is a filmmaker I’m a
know their father is a filmmaker I’m a writer they they you know they just get
writer they they you know they just get to have a different kind of life and so
to have a different kind of life and so I do worry about them just not having to
I do worry about them just not having to kind of you know work as hard frankly as
kind of you know work as hard frankly as I had to work yeah but on the other hand
I had to work yeah but on the other hand I I love that they have some I mean you
I I love that they have some I mean you know the thing that that I think made me
know the thing that that I think made me cry the hardest since all this stuff has
cry the hardest since all this stuff has happened with while is um is I bought a
happened with while is um is I bought a piano for my kids and it started they
piano for my kids and it started they started piano lessons and I just always
started piano lessons and I just always wanted to have piano lessons my whole
wanted to have piano lessons my whole life and I never got to and ice now I’m
life and I never got to and ice now I’m too busy to take piano lessons but I
too busy to take piano lessons but I gave them to my kids you know my kids
gave them to my kids you know my kids get to be the kids who get piano lessons
get to be the kids who get piano lessons you know and so that’s a big deal and
you know and so that’s a big deal and any of you who grew up you know and
any of you who grew up you know and we’re able to give your kids what you
we’re able to give your kids what you didn’t get it’s just a powerful
didn’t get it’s just a powerful experience you know and so yeah that’s
experience you know and so yeah that’s that’s an eye but the way I parent them
that’s an eye but the way I parent them essentially you know is the same way my
essentially you know is the same way my mother did with love with a great amount
mother did with love with a great amount of love and openness about that love you
of love and openness about that love you know I did not
know I did not my mother didn’t ever withhold when my
my mother didn’t ever withhold when my mom found out she was dying and she died
mom found out she was dying and she died seven weeks later I distinctly remember
seven weeks later I distinctly remember us talking about how he was like okay
us talking about how he was like okay this is our last chance with each other
this is our last chance with each other right she’s going to die and the coolest
right she’s going to die and the coolest thing was that there was nothing we had
thing was that there was nothing we had to say to each other
to say to each other there was nothing that we had to say to
there was nothing that we had to say to each other because we’d already said it
each other because we’d already said it there were no there were no like secrets
there were no there were no like secrets or things that had gone unsaid or
or things that had gone unsaid or unresolved it was all present already I
unresolved it was all present already I knew
knew that and my mother did too I feel so
that and my mother did too I feel so lucky about that as you’re talking I get
lucky about that as you’re talking I get I still get that laughing lump in my
I still get that laughing lump in my throat and let’s not cry anyone crying
throat and let’s not cry anyone crying and but we were talking a little bit
and but we were talking a little bit about that gives the idea of the raw
about that gives the idea of the raw grief and how it changes I know for me
grief and how it changes I know for me reading the book can you hit every note
reading the book can you hit every note of that and it’s not very often you get
of that and it’s not very often you get someone who hits that note and it for me
someone who hits that note and it for me it was like she gets it she understands
it was like she gets it she understands and do you think your grief has changed
and do you think your grief has changed over the years yeah I do yeah now first
over the years yeah I do yeah now first for those of you who haven’t read the
for those of you who haven’t read the book it’s also very funny in parts right
book it’s also very funny in parts right right
right have any of you read as some of you have
have any of you read as some of you have read wild it and there were there were
read wild it and there were there were funny parts right funny things okay um
funny parts right funny things okay um but the green sari upset they’re also
but the green sari upset they’re also sad parts but there’s funny friends I
sad parts but there’s funny friends I always say to people you know sometimes
always say to people you know sometimes I’ll get an email and they’ll be like I
I’ll get an email and they’ll be like I just finished chapter what and I don’t
just finished chapter what and I don’t know if I can go on I’m like it gets
know if I can go on I’m like it gets funny just keep reading it hold on baby
funny just keep reading it hold on baby um just I let them get to the horse oh
um just I let them get to the horse oh no it was no whoa oh God so oh that’s a
no it was no whoa oh God so oh that’s a terrible scene I apologize for the horse
terrible scene I apologize for the horse I even writing it I was like if I were a
I even writing it I was like if I were a reader I would just skip right past this
reader I would just skip right past this you know but grief you know how is my
you know but grief you know how is my crib changed it’s absolute you know it
crib changed it’s absolute you know it it was so enormous and monumental you
it was so enormous and monumental you know in the years right after my mom
know in the years right after my mom died and what’s what’s interesting about
died and what’s what’s interesting about it is it’s still incredibly powerful I
it is it’s still incredibly powerful I can still you know every day I feel the
can still you know every day I feel the absence of my mother but it absolutely
absence of my mother but it absolutely does become you know more manageable
does become you know more manageable more part of life and and and I have a
more part of life and and and I have a deeper and more complex understanding of
deeper and more complex understanding of of how I can carry it with me with some
of how I can carry it with me with some some grace and without being ruled by it
some grace and without being ruled by it or destroyed things or destroyed by it
or destroyed things or destroyed by it yeah and so and so it gets easier even
yeah and so and so it gets easier even though it’s still there
though it’s still there you know and the beauty I mean the
you know and the beauty I mean the beautiful thing about deep grief and
beautiful thing about deep grief and those of you who have lost somebody
those of you who have lost somebody essential to you I know you know what I
essential to you I know you know what I mean about this is the
mean about this is the is what it’s really about is love you
is what it’s really about is love you know the only reason that you still
know the only reason that you still grieve somebody 23 years after they died
grieve somebody 23 years after they died is because you actually truly really
is because you actually truly really loved them
loved them and isn’t that amazing I mean that’s
and isn’t that amazing I mean that’s just amazes me like I really loved my
just amazes me like I really loved my mom yeah yeah absolutely
so how is both I know um are you ever worried what your children will say when
worried what your children will say when they read your work how do you feel
they read your work how do you feel about them reading it for the first time
about them reading it for the first time maybe is 1718 yeah they I think they’re
maybe is 1718 yeah they I think they’re really lucky to have a mom who’s a
really lucky to have a mom who’s a writer I would love to have access to
writer I would love to have access to the interior lives of my parents now I
the interior lives of my parents now I wouldn’t have loved it when I was 17 and
wouldn’t have loved it when I was 17 and I don’t think that my kids it’s not as
I don’t think that my kids it’s not as if you know when they turn 16 I’m going
if you know when they turn 16 I’m going to be like happy birthday kids but out
to be like happy birthday kids but out of my book times you get to know mommy
of my book times you get to know mommy better um you know I I will warn them
better um you know I I will warn them about you know that maybe there will be
about you know that maybe there will be some things that they don’t want to read
some things that they don’t want to read like right now they know this story I
like right now they know this story I went I went to their school my kids are
went I went to their school my kids are seven and nine and last year I went to
seven and nine and last year I went to their school and gave a talk and it I
their school and gave a talk and it I was more nervous for that talk than any
was more nervous for that talk than any talk and um so what was interesting to
talk and um so what was interesting to me is you know obviously there were
me is you know obviously there were pieces of the book that I that I
pieces of the book that I that I couldn’t talk about in specific terms
couldn’t talk about in specific terms but you know I could talk about more
but you know I could talk about more more about the book than maybe you would
more about the book than maybe you would first think because one of the things I
first think because one of the things I decided when I went in is I wasn’t going
decided when I went in is I wasn’t going to just tell them about the hike I was
to just tell them about the hike I was going to tell them about grief and
going to tell them about grief and because there’s there’s always you know
because there’s there’s always you know we assume the children I don’t know why
we assume the children I don’t know why we assume this the children don’t know
we assume this the children don’t know about grief but there’s always one
about grief but there’s always one person in the room who whose dad died or
person in the room who whose dad died or his mom died or who you know and so I
his mom died or who you know and so I put up I did slideshows the only group
put up I did slideshows the only group for whom I’ve done a slideshow in all of
for whom I’ve done a slideshow in all of my wild talking and I the first slide
my wild talking and I the first slide was a picture of my mom and I said I
was a picture of my mom and I said I explained to them that my mom died and I
explained to them that my mom died and I was so sad
was so sad that I didn’t know what to do so I went
that I didn’t know what to do so I went on a long walk and the kids were just
on a long walk and the kids were just absolutely riveted by that portion of my
absolutely riveted by that portion of my lecture and then I went on and gave the
lecture and then I went on and gave the hike you know they talked about the hike
hike you know they talked about the hike and afterwards the kids went back to
and afterwards the kids went back to their classrooms and they were all asked
their classrooms and they were all asked to draw a picture about my talk and at
to draw a picture about my talk and at least half of them drew portraits of my
least half of them drew portraits of my mom and it was because that was the part
mom and it was because that was the part that touched them the most that meant
that touched them the most that meant that they connected with them so you
that they connected with them so you know I talked to them about the human
know I talked to them about the human element of the book you know that this
element of the book you know that this is why I did this thing and you know
is why I did this thing and you know there are some sex scenes in the book
there are some sex scenes in the book and there’s some drug stuff and my kids
and there’s some drug stuff and my kids will probably be uncomfortable with it
will probably be uncomfortable with it and they’ll wait until they’re old
and they’ll wait until they’re old enough that they can handle it and then
enough that they can handle it and then they’ll handle it
they’ll handle it you know and that’s the thing about it
you know and that’s the thing about it about your momís you know you you have
about your momís you know you you have the mom you have and and we all learn to
the mom you have and and we all learn to live with that and the mom they have
live with that and the mom they have just happens to be you know somebody who
just happens to be you know somebody who writes excruciatingly ly honest things
writes excruciatingly ly honest things about myself you know and I’m sure you
about myself you know and I’m sure you know they’ll have something to say
know they’ll have something to say should I ever really start writing
should I ever really start writing excruciating ly honest things about them
excruciating ly honest things about them which which I will avoid doing but um
which which I will avoid doing but um you know I just think that they’ll be
you know I just think that they’ll be okay and and and frankly fortunate
okay and and and frankly fortunate someday you know like when they’re in
someday you know like when they’re in their 40s they’ll be like yeah my mom
their 40s they’ll be like yeah my mom wrote a book but you know um before that
wrote a book but you know um before that I understand it’s like my brother read
I understand it’s like my brother read Wilde of course and um he loved the book
Wilde of course and um he loved the book and we had a deep talk about it and but
and we had a deep talk about it and but he did say well when you were you know
he did say well when you were you know at that scene when you’re in Ashland and
at that scene when you’re in Ashland and you’re like gonna have sex with that
you’re like gonna have sex with that hippie in the tent
hippie in the tent he’s like I just sort of had to skim
he’s like I just sort of had to skim that part and I was like thank you you
that part and I was like thank you you know it’s like I don’t need to read that
know it’s like I don’t need to read that stuff about my sister oh so um would you
stuff about my sister oh so um would you do the trail again
do the trail again of course I would would you yes really
of course I would would you yes really oh yes though you know I have to say
oh yes though you know I have to say it’s funny cuz so the film is being shot
it’s funny cuz so the film is being shot and you know we’re out there I don’t
and you know we’re out there I don’t know how many of you have been on a film
know how many of you have been on a film set but it’s you know it’s it’s grueling
set but it’s you know it’s it’s grueling it’s really hard work it’s long days and
it’s really hard work it’s long days and you know most of the movie obviously is
you know most of the movie obviously is outside and you’re in the elements and
outside and you’re in the elements and I’m watching Reese like hike along under
I’m watching Reese like hike along under this pack I just ask you what is it like
this pack I just ask you what is it like seeing where the spa
seeing where the spa paying yourself can we just have a
paying yourself can we just have a moment here how incredible that is wait
moment here how incredible that is wait with I know I know it’s so movie star is
with I know I know it’s so movie star is playing you in what I mean what I know
playing you in what I mean what I know it’s small it’s about real like I don’t
it’s small it’s about real like I don’t even have words for it it’s so straight
even have words for it it’s so straight I mean there’s so many times where I
I mean there’s so many times where I just think okay what the is going
just think okay what the is going on yeah I mean like what’s so weird you
on yeah I mean like what’s so weird you know I mean but yeah it’s very large and
know I mean but yeah it’s very large and there’s Riis so yeah it’s strange and so
there’s Riis so yeah it’s strange and so you think you know on the film set and
you think you know on the film set and there’s a dump site and we’re outside
there’s a dump site and we’re outside and you know we’re just pretending okay
and you know we’re just pretending okay we’re just pretending that this woman’s
we’re just pretending that this woman’s out alone in the wilderness and you know
out alone in the wilderness and you know and there’s like she’s trying to make
and there’s like she’s trying to make the stove work and and what’s so funny I
the stove work and and what’s so funny I loved this
loved this I loved this I was like okay so they’re
I loved this I was like okay so they’re there um she’s trying to cook dinner and
there um she’s trying to cook dinner and of course all the props guys and stuff
of course all the props guys and stuff are like lighting the stove for her and
are like lighting the stove for her and everything unlike I didn’t have any guys
everything unlike I didn’t have any guys out there and and the thing keeps going
out there and and the thing keeps going out like it keeps over and over and I
out like it keeps over and over and I like and it won’t work and I’m like see
like and it won’t work and I’m like see I wasn’t such an idiot like even even
I wasn’t such an idiot like even even professionals can’t get it to work and
professionals can’t get it to work and I’m so everyone saw was this is what
I’m so everyone saw was this is what what it’s like so there’s this whole
what it’s like so there’s this whole thing and there’s this movie star and
thing and there’s this movie star and she’s dressed in clothes exactly like
she’s dressed in clothes exactly like what I was wearing and you know and
what I was wearing and you know and she’s doing this thing and she’ll and
she’s doing this thing and she’ll and there will be some times where she’s in
there will be some times where she’s in the middle of the scene and suddenly
the middle of the scene and suddenly I’ll remember like I’ll have a almost
I’ll remember like I’ll have a almost like a body memory of what it was like
like a body memory of what it was like what it was like to to be standing there
what it was like to to be standing there but no film crew around like just to be
but no film crew around like just to be alone in the wilderness and I’ll go back
alone in the wilderness and I’ll go back to that place in my mind and it was hard
to that place in my mind and it was hard and it was lonely and it was really
and it was lonely and it was really really profoundly solitary you know like
really profoundly solitary you know like in every direction
in every direction there was no humans it was just me and I
there was no humans it was just me and I mean sometimes four miles but you know
mean sometimes four miles but you know and there was at the first eight days
and there was at the first eight days nobody 8 days nobody and I’ll go back to
nobody 8 days nobody and I’ll go back to that and so like if I did the trail
that and so like if I did the trail again if I did it alone again which I
again if I did it alone again which I don’t know that I would do that you know
don’t know that I would do that you know I want to go with my husband and my kids
I want to go with my husband and my kids but if I did it alone again I know for
but if I did it alone again I know for sure that it would be hard I’ve gone on
sure that it would be hard I’ve gone on backpacking
backpacking trips by myself since then and even just
trips by myself since then and even just like the first few days it’s like okay
like the first few days it’s like okay this is not fun this is uncomfortable
this is not fun this is uncomfortable need the bus the bus the bus is a good
need the bus the bus the bus is a good thing the train but just to settle back
thing the train but just to settle back into that that that’s sole onus is you
into that that that’s sole onus is you know it’s difficult and just being with
know it’s difficult and just being with yourself yeah and you know I only manage
yourself yeah and you know I only manage five days and your own thoughts see
five days and your own thoughts see that’s the other thing 1995 different
that’s the other thing 1995 different world know them now no phones no I mean
world know them now no phones no I mean I didn’t have any electronics with me I
I didn’t have any electronics with me I didn’t have music I didn’t have any I
didn’t have music I didn’t have any I didn’t have anything they didn’t even I
didn’t have anything they didn’t even I mean the first time I heard about a cell
mean the first time I heard about a cell phone was strangely was on the PCT the
phone was strangely was on the PCT the first time I saw a cell phone and um
first time I saw a cell phone and um this guy I call Albert in the book that
this guy I call Albert in the book that the Eagle Scout dude who helped me
the Eagle Scout dude who helped me lighten my pack
lighten my pack he had this brick of plastic I kid you
he had this brick of plastic I kid you not with these buttons with numbers on
not with these buttons with numbers on the front and I was like well what
the front and I was like well what what’s that he said this thing
what’s that he said this thing I’m gonna get rid of it he didn’t say
I’m gonna get rid of it he didn’t say because he’s a Christian but um and
because he’s a Christian but um and um he said I’m going to get rid of it
um he said I’m going to get rid of it and he said some company is trying to
and he said some company is trying to develop this thing it’s called a cell
develop this thing it’s called a cell phone and they found out I was going on
phone and they found out I was going on this hike and they asked me to carry it
this hike and they asked me to carry it from Mexico to Canada and and turn it on
from Mexico to Canada and and turn it on every hour or something to see if it
every hour or something to see if it would get reception and I was like and
would get reception and I was like and he goes and I’ve been walking for you
he goes and I’ve been walking for you know a month now never got reception so
know a month now never got reception so I’m not going to keep carrying I’m just
I’m not going to keep carrying I’m just gonna leave it in the hiker free box so
gonna leave it in the hiker free box so somebody has like a cell phone prototype
somebody has like a cell phone prototype out there right so and I remember us
out there right so and I remember us distinctly and this is why I’m not in
distinctly and this is why I’m not in product development saying that is the
product development saying that is the stupidest idea I’ve ever and we were
stupidest idea I’ve ever and we were like who on this green earth would agree
like who on this green earth would agree to carry a phone around with them all
to carry a phone around with them all the time I mean who would do that like
the time I mean who would do that like isn’t it I mean why would you ever want
isn’t it I mean why would you ever want people to always be able to reach you
people to always be able to reach you just thought it was absurd and we were
just thought it was absurd and we were like that’s gonna tank for sure so this
like that’s gonna tank for sure so this is why I’m a writer instead of us yeah
is why I’m a writer instead of us yeah so yeah so so we’ve got we’ve had wild
so yeah so so we’ve got we’ve had wild it’s been huge success and number one
it’s been huge success and number one best-selling on New York Times list tiny
best-selling on New York Times list tiny beautiful things also number one
beautiful things also number one The Times list Oprah’s what hopeful like
The Times list Oprah’s what hopeful like oh my god oh my mouse master
oh my god oh my mouse master Oprah hello everything so do you want to
Oprah hello everything so do you want to hear how Oprah it’s a phone story a cell
hear how Oprah it’s a phone story a cell phone story no it’s okay no did you let
phone story no it’s okay no did you let your sending that and the phone rang and
your sending that and the phone rang and it will open people or did she ring you
it will open people or did she ring you direct tell me doctor okay I was in a
direct tell me doctor okay I was in a hotel room in Milwaukee I was wild had
hotel room in Milwaukee I was wild had been out you know a month or so I was
been out you know a month or so I was doing Wendy well anyway I was weld at
doing Wendy well anyway I was weld at this point had already exceeded any time
this point had already exceeded any time I had for myself it was on the New York
I had for myself it was on the New York Times bestseller list it was just and my
Times bestseller list it was just and my I was in Milwaukee Wisconsin and my cell
I was in Milwaukee Wisconsin and my cell phone rang and Milwaukee’s just maybe a
phone rang and Milwaukee’s just maybe a couple hours away from Chicago and it
couple hours away from Chicago and it was a Chicago number and I and I thought
was a Chicago number and I and I thought it was this sales rep who I was gonna
it was this sales rep who I was gonna meet later that day and so I almost let
meet later that day and so I almost let a good a voicemail
a good a voicemail now as I God just answered the phone I
now as I God just answered the phone I said hi this is Cheryl and the other
said hi this is Cheryl and the other voice said hi this is Oprah she ran
voice said hi this is Oprah she ran herself yeah no yeah she rang herself
herself yeah no yeah she rang herself and I said um I did you know I said no
and I said um I did you know I said no it would be I pause well I posit that it
it would be I pause well I posit that it is because it was Oprah you know I’d
is because it was Oprah you know I’d like it was her voice it was and I mean
like it was her voice it was and I mean when Oprah calls you you know it and on
when Oprah calls you you know it and on till either side oh my god like hello
till either side oh my god like hello what you know what do you want and and
what you know what do you want and and she said I just finished wild oh my god
she said I just finished wild oh my god you know and then she would and in her
you know and then she would and in her Oprah voice you know and we had this
Oprah voice you know and we had this long conversation like 20 minutes which
long conversation like 20 minutes which I keep I kept interrupting her to scream
I keep I kept interrupting her to scream and swear at her and be like and um and
and swear at her and be like and um and then she says after about 20 minutes she
then she says after about 20 minutes she says so I have an idea and nobody knew
says so I have an idea and nobody knew about this yet just me and her okay she
about this yet just me and her okay she says I have an idea
says I have an idea I would like to restart my book club for
I would like to restart my book club for wild what do you think about that and I
wild what do you think about that and I said well I think that sounds just fine
and she said you know I and she was like she said I’m on your website right now
she said I’m on your website right now she my website which by the way I just
she my website which by the way I just do myself you know and I’m still to this
do myself you know and I’m still to this day and she’s like I see you’re gonna be
day and she’s like I see you’re gonna be in Los Angeles on Saturday would you
in Los Angeles on Saturday would you like to stay an extra day and come to my
like to stay an extra day and come to my house in Santa Barbara and I was like
house in Santa Barbara and I was like okay and so I find myself you know in a
okay and so I find myself you know in a limousine on Sunday morning being
limousine on Sunday morning being whisked to Oprah’s house and I spent the
whisked to Oprah’s house and I spent the day with her and she’s just so lovely
day with her and she’s just so lovely and and we just hung out at her place
and and we just hung out at her place and which is just a shack you know and I
and which is just a shack you know and I mean Hannah and we shot this show she
mean Hannah and we shot this show she has a show called super soul Sunday and
has a show called super soul Sunday and we you know had this Hulk on camera
we you know had this Hulk on camera conversation right yeah kind of like
conversation right yeah kind of like we’re doing here tonight and um and the
we’re doing here tonight and um and the except we were surrounded by cameras and
except we were surrounded by cameras and stuff and and and then oh you saw the
stuff and and and then oh you saw the supercell Sunday yeah yuichi and um
supercell Sunday yeah yuichi and um Oprah’s people did my hair that night so
Oprah’s people did my hair that night so yeah so um but it was really fun and
yeah so um but it was really fun and then I just hung out with her and got to
then I just hung out with her and got to know her and she’s the warmest lovely I
know her and she’s the warmest lovely I mean we’ve stayed in touch he’s so you
mean we’ve stayed in touch he’s so you know real Oprah’s exactly like she seems
know real Oprah’s exactly like she seems on TV you know I mean she says I think
on TV you know I mean she says I think she could be where she is without being
she could be where she is without being the real thing yeah
the real thing yeah well and that’s what was so cool when I
well and that’s what was so cool when I talked to her about um books and her
talked to her about um books and her book club
book club did she really choose his books that she
did she really choose his books that she loves it you know and like any list
loves it you know and like any list we’re not gonna all love the same books
we’re not gonna all love the same books that you know write you know our friends
that you know write you know our friends don’t always love the books we love and
don’t always love the books we love and Oprah just has a lot of friends you know
Oprah just has a lot of friends you know so she just chooses them from her heart
so she just chooses them from her heart and shares them with the world and yeah
and shares them with the world and yeah that ended up being a great thing you
that ended up being a great thing you know for me a really nice thing I mean
know for me a really nice thing I mean where do you go from here so you if
where do you go from here so you if you’ve been on the New York Times I’ve
you’ve been on the New York Times I’ve had the output at least with the spoon
had the output at least with the spoon is playing you in the film and it’s out
is playing you in the film and it’s out next year and what next what I think
next year and what next what I think we’re after all that the only place you
we’re after all that the only place you can go as you leave your husband for
can go as you leave your husband for George Clooney
right my husband’s pretty great yeah don’t tell him that
don’t tell him that yeah somebody’s tweeting that as we
yeah somebody’s tweeting that as we speak right my husband’s not on Twitter
speak right my husband’s not on Twitter so we’re safe um you know where we go
so we’re safe um you know where we go really is I just write another book yeah
really is I just write another book yeah yeah I got a band you know what you’re
yeah I got a band you know what you’re gonna write next are you you know I just
gonna write next are you you know I just am going I’m gonna just the thing is
am going I’m gonna just the thing is it’s the only way to write is to just
it’s the only way to write is to just get back to that place that you’ve
get back to that place that you’ve originally began which is just you alone
originally began which is just you alone in a room with a lot of anxiety and fear
in a room with a lot of anxiety and fear and doubt but with a vision you know and
and doubt but with a vision you know and so I you know I don’t know what’s going
so I you know I don’t know what’s going to come next and it’s just I’m just
to come next and it’s just I’m just gonna write you know and the thing is
gonna write you know and the thing is just that the other thing is I like I
just that the other thing is I like I doubt that
doubt that like I just I doubt that I’ll ever write
like I just I doubt that I’ll ever write another book that does as well in the
another book that does as well in the marketplace is wild you know an artist
marketplace is wild you know an artist has no control over that and when
has no control over that and when something like wild happens it’s just
something like wild happens it’s just like lightning struck and you know I
like lightning struck and you know I didn’t try to make that happen what I
didn’t try to make that happen what I tried to do is I tried to write the best
tried to do is I tried to write the best book I could write which is what I did
book I could write which is what I did with torch and what I did with tiny
with torch and what I did with tiny beautiful things and what I’ve done with
beautiful things and what I’ve done with everything I’ve ever written and so I’m
everything I’ve ever written and so I’m going to write that next thing and and
going to write that next thing and and who knows what the world will think of
who knows what the world will think of it and that’s kind of just really not up
it and that’s kind of just really not up to me I was interviewing at Elizabeth
to me I was interviewing at Elizabeth Gilbert for psychologies this issue
Gilbert for psychologies this issue actually and she said exactly the same
actually and she said exactly the same you know in pray love
you know in pray love hello it was fantastic brilliant but I
hello it was fantastic brilliant but I had to go back she I mean she did
had to go back she I mean she did committed then she had to go back to her
committed then she had to go back to her first love which is right and she’s just
first love which is right and she’s just got her new novel out now and it’s just
got her new novel out now and it’s just about the artist channeling whatever
about the artist channeling whatever yeah comes and doing what she loves
yeah comes and doing what she loves right and then sometimes other people
right and then sometimes other people love it and sometimes other people don’t
love it and sometimes other people don’t and so you just have to keep the faith
and so you just have to keep the faith with what’s true you know with the basic
with what’s true you know with the basic the essential the element you know and
the essential the element you know and so I plan to do that well whatever you
so I plan to do that well whatever you write if George gives me time to
write if George gives me time to whatever you’re right I know I’m going
whatever you’re right I know I’m going to absolutely love it
to absolutely love it so I actually wanted to talk about do
so I actually wanted to talk about do sugar and just ask your questions cuz
sugar and just ask your questions cuz that was really what hooked me and
that was really what hooked me and especially you write a lot about
especially you write a lot about relationships and I know it’s been
relationships and I know it’s been really comforting for me but you write
really comforting for me but you write so honestly about betrayal and
so honestly about betrayal and infidelity these things are just really
infidelity these things are just really terrible that and I know a lot of you
terrible that and I know a lot of you know and also you talk about mr. sugar
know and also you talk about mr. sugar and then you came out as you know shows
and then you came out as you know shows dear sugar and I wonder how writing
dear sugar and I wonder how writing honestly helped or what it did to your
honestly helped or what it did to your relationships and how it did it
relationships and how it did it strengthen them did it you know what I
strengthen them did it you know what I mean because it’s hard for us too for me
mean because it’s hard for us too for me well I can’t just write you know and
well I can’t just write you know and that will change my relationships but
that will change my relationships but how did that honesty change your
how did that honesty change your relationships right yeah so one thing is
relationships right yeah so one thing is dear sugar I was anonymous meaning that
dear sugar I was anonymous meaning that readers didn’t know who sugar was can
readers didn’t know who sugar was can you all still hear me um but I knew who
you all still hear me um but I knew who I was and I also knew that someday my
I was and I also knew that someday my name would be on those columns so
name would be on those columns so everything I wrote as sugar I wrote as
everything I wrote as sugar I wrote as Cheryl Strayed
Cheryl Strayed and so for example there’s a column
and so for example there’s a column called a little Sully in your suite
called a little Sully in your suite where I write about my husband cheating
where I write about my husband cheating on me early in our relationship and
on me early in our relationship and before I wrote about it you know I got a
before I wrote about it you know I got a question that I I knew that the right
question that I I knew that the right answer was going to be um you know to
answer was going to be um you know to tell the truth about my relationship
tell the truth about my relationship rather than to you know just talk about
rather than to you know just talk about the the surface level the facade and so
the the surface level the facade and so I asked my husband I was like look you
I asked my husband I was like look you know I want to write about this
know I want to write about this experience we had and what do you think
experience we had and what do you think about that and and he said oh do you
about that and and he said oh do you have two and I said well not if you
have two and I said well not if you don’t want me to and he said actually
don’t want me to and he said actually you know you do it and he and I you know
you know you do it and he and I you know just really support each other and trust
just really support each other and trust each other and he knew that that I would
each other and he knew that that I would write I mean first of all he and I you
write I mean first of all he and I you know in our in our relationship you know
know in our in our relationship you know are at a place like there was nothing
are at a place like there was nothing that he read that I wrote that was a
that he read that I wrote that was a surprise to him you know that we’re very
surprise to him you know that we’re very intimate with each other we worked our
intimate with each other we worked our way all the way through that that
way all the way through that that infidelity and back again and as I wrote
infidelity and back again and as I wrote in the column you know
in the column you know I’m actually really grateful that that
I’m actually really grateful that that that happened when it did in I’m great I
that happened when it did in I’m great I mean this sounds so bizarre but it’s
mean this sounds so bizarre but it’s true I’m grateful that my husband
true I’m grateful that my husband cheated on me early in our relationship
cheated on me early in our relationship so that we could go to that other place
so that we could go to that other place of honesty with each other and figure
of honesty with each other and figure out like what was the problem and and it
out like what was the problem and and it brought us to a deeper level and and and
brought us to a deeper level and and and you know I think anyone who has you know
you know I think anyone who has you know bit I’ve been with my husband 18 years
bit I’ve been with my husband 18 years you know and I’m we’re very happy and we
you know and I’m we’re very happy and we love each other and there has also been
love each other and there has also been some difficulty along the way and that’s
some difficulty along the way and that’s true in any relationship and so I wanted
true in any relationship and so I wanted to sort of share the truth of that you
to sort of share the truth of that you know I always think it’d be so
know I always think it’d be so interesting I don’t know if you guys do
interesting I don’t know if you guys do this here but in the United States
this here but in the United States sometimes there will be like a 50th
sometimes there will be like a 50th wedding anniversary party and you know
wedding anniversary party and you know that they write it up like in the paper
that they write it up like in the paper they’ll be like so and so and so and so
they’ll be like so and so and so and so they’re celebrating 50 years their
they’re celebrating 50 years their marriages you know they had four kids
marriages you know they had four kids and they you know what lived in three
and they you know what lived in three cities and they were you know and it
cities and they were you know and it says all this stuff what I think would
says all this stuff what I think would always be so interesting if we had a
always be so interesting if we had a real one you know she was her
real one you know she was her boss for three years but then they
boss for three years but then they figured it out and um you know like you
figured it out and um you know like you know that we really see the like
know that we really see the like actually what happened and how do you
actually what happened and how do you make a 50-year marriage work and it’s
make a 50-year marriage work and it’s not all you know roses and rainbows
not all you know roses and rainbows right and so I wanted his dear sugar to
right and so I wanted his dear sugar to tell that story and so what it’s done I
tell that story and so what it’s done I mean it hasn’t it hasn’t done anything
mean it hasn’t it hasn’t done anything to my marriage because like I said my
to my marriage because like I said my this was not new information to my
this was not new information to my husband the stuff I wrote it was just a
husband the stuff I wrote it was just a piece of us that I decided to share now
piece of us that I decided to share now one thing about my writing is I’m really
one thing about my writing is I’m really you know people say oh you’re so honest
you know people say oh you’re so honest and open that’s true and it’s also true
and open that’s true and it’s also true that I don’t write everything there are
that I don’t write everything there are whole huge swaths of my life about which
whole huge swaths of my life about which you know nothing and I think the people
you know nothing and I think the people forget that because there are huge
forget that because there are huge swaths of my life about which you know a
swaths of my life about which you know a lot and so you know I’m very conscious
lot and so you know I’m very conscious and careful my siblings they come up in
and careful my siblings they come up in wild one of the questions I always get
wild one of the questions I always get is about my siblings and their they’ve
is about my siblings and their they’ve had I mean there are lots of stories
had I mean there are lots of stories about my siblings that I didn’t tell
about my siblings that I didn’t tell because I wanted to protect their
because I wanted to protect their privacy I didn’t want to hurt
privacy I didn’t want to hurt their feelings or in any way invade
their feelings or in any way invade their lives you know but so I’m always
their lives you know but so I’m always making that judgment as a writer and I
making that judgment as a writer and I do think on the other hand like I
do think on the other hand like I mentioned that my brother read Wilde and
mentioned that my brother read Wilde and you know those of you read the book know
you know those of you read the book know that he’s in some of the books most
that he’s in some of the books most difficult scenes and my brother has had
difficult scenes and my brother has had a hard life and and here and he’s he
a hard life and and here and he’s he didn’t even graduate from high school he
didn’t even graduate from high school he doesn’t he’s not like a bookish you know
doesn’t he’s not like a bookish you know intellectual person but he read Wilde
intellectual person but he read Wilde and he understood it on every know in
and he understood it on every know in the most sophisticated way and he and I
the most sophisticated way and he and I had the most profound conversation that
had the most profound conversation that we’ve had with each other in our lives
we’ve had with each other in our lives because of Wilde and because I wrote
because of Wilde and because I wrote honestly about what I felt about him and
honestly about what I felt about him and what happened and he said you know I
what happened and he said you know I can’t believe it that stuff you wrote
can’t believe it that stuff you wrote Cheryl he said you know I buried so much
Cheryl he said you know I buried so much of that and it just all I came it was it
of that and it just all I came it was it was incredibly healing for him to read
was incredibly healing for him to read the book and for us to talk you know I
the book and for us to talk you know I think there’s some that we’re I think
think there’s some that we’re I think most of us are so afraid of speaking the
most of us are so afraid of speaking the truth because we think it will hurt
truth because we think it will hurt people or it will cause conflict and I’m
people or it will cause conflict and I’m here to tell you that that actually you
here to tell you that that actually you know so many the opposite has happened
know so many the opposite has happened in my life so many things are healed and
in my life so many things are healed and when you bring light in so many things
when you bring light in so many things are actually made better it’s it’s not
are actually made better it’s it’s not as scary as as you would think I have a
as scary as as you would think I have a daughter who lost her mum at eleven
daughter who lost her mum at eleven uh-huh and she was doing sort of stuff
uh-huh and she was doing sort of stuff that you were doing in your twenties
that you were doing in your twenties when she was fifteen and she struggled
when she was fifteen and she struggled with life a lot if there was any advice
with life a lot if there was any advice I could give her what would it be
I could give her what would it be because she’s still struggling at 13
because she’s still struggling at 13 she’s 30 hmm she’s 30 did you say 30
she’s 30 hmm she’s 30 did you say 30 yeah she got to children’s uh-huh yeah
yeah she got to children’s uh-huh yeah you know the it’s so hard um it’s so
you know the it’s so hard um it’s so hard for me to just encapsulate you know
hard for me to just encapsulate you know one one piece of advice one of the
one one piece of advice one of the things that I think has been really
things that I think has been really helpful to me in my own life frankly is
helpful to me in my own life frankly is books you know my recommendation you
books you know my recommendation you know how can you help her as find the
know how can you help her as find the books that have been enlightening to you
books that have been enlightening to you and give them to her
you know really honestly tiny beautiful things is full of advice the book is
things is full of advice the book is advice and it’s advice of the spirit and
advice and it’s advice of the spirit and and it has to do I mean the only way
and it has to do I mean the only way that your daughter will change her life
that your daughter will change her life is by changing her life you know you
is by changing her life you know you cannot you cannot change it for her and
cannot you cannot change it for her and I know how I know how hard that is
I know how I know how hard that is because I have loved people before who
because I have loved people before who haven’t changed in the ways that I hope
haven’t changed in the ways that I hope they will and and you just can’t you
they will and and you just can’t you have to do it yourself and and pretty
have to do it yourself and and pretty much every sugar column says that in
much every sugar column says that in different ways and so I do think that it
different ways and so I do think that it could be useful to her and also just
could be useful to her and also just love her you know love her through it
love her you know love her through it and you know share with her your honest
and you know share with her your honest opinions in ways that maybe oh yeah
opinions in ways that maybe oh yeah there’s this thing I write about it and
there’s this thing I write about it and in tiny beautiful things these teenage
in tiny beautiful things these teenage girls I worked with and for me it was a
girls I worked with and for me it was a really interesting mind shift we treated
really interesting mind shift we treated these girls with what I call call
these girls with what I call call unconditional positive regard which is
unconditional positive regard which is different than saying everything they do
different than saying everything they do is okay you know so if one of the girls
is okay you know so if one of the girls I was working with was you know sleeping
I was working with was you know sleeping with a 30 year old guy which you know
with a 30 year old guy which you know many of them were there like 14 I would
many of them were there like 14 I would say you are doing the wrong thing you
say you are doing the wrong thing you know I would I would share my honest
know I would I would share my honest opinion but from a place that’s not
opinion but from a place that’s not judgmental but rather holding them an
judgmental but rather holding them an unconditional positive regard and I
unconditional positive regard and I think that that is the best thing that
think that that is the best thing that we can do for the people we love who are
we can do for the people we love who are clearly harming themselves good luck I’m
clearly harming themselves good luck I’m sorry it’s hard and you should really
sorry it’s hard and you should really read my books I’m seizing or at least
read my books I’m seizing or at least buy them you don’t have to read them hi
buy them you don’t have to read them hi Cheryl
Cheryl hello we’re I’m over here oh there we go
hello we’re I’m over here oh there we go you’ve sort of come to my question um
you’ve sort of come to my question um you’ve mentioned the word honesty so
you’ve mentioned the word honesty so many times tonight living honest
many times tonight living honest in writing honestly but for me the word
in writing honestly but for me the word that really is dominant particularly in
that really is dominant particularly in tiny beautiful things is compassion and
tiny beautiful things is compassion and I’ve heard you use the word super love I
I’ve heard you use the word super love I read it yeah go somewhere and I would
read it yeah go somewhere and I would just love to hear you speak a little bit
just love to hear you speak a little bit about compassion or super love or how
about compassion or super love or how you come from that place you know the
you come from that place you know the advice that you’ve given yeah that that
advice that you’ve given yeah that that word super love some somebody asked me I
word super love some somebody asked me I think I must have said it in response to
think I must have said it in response to a question as you know somebody said
a question as you know somebody said what’s the best advice you’ve ever
what’s the best advice you’ve ever gotten and from whom and what’s the
gotten and from whom and what’s the worst advice the worst advice my
worst advice the worst advice my mother’s mother my grandmother gave me
mother’s mother my grandmother gave me and when I was 14 she said I’m going to
and when I was 14 she said I’m going to give you one piece of advice never if
give you one piece of advice never if you when you get married never in all of
you when you get married never in all of your life get fully naked in front of
your life get fully naked in front of your husband that was bad advice
your husband that was bad advice don’t you think really bad advice my
don’t you think really bad advice my poor grandfather but anyway but my
poor grandfather but anyway but my mother I remember in this in the early
mother I remember in this in the early 70s I was very I was born in 1968 so I
70s I was very I was born in 1968 so I was pretty young and I remember seen a
was pretty young and I remember seen a photograph and I think it’s a famous
photograph and I think it’s a famous photograph and if anyone knows what it
photograph and if anyone knows what it is please tell me because I’ve looked
is please tell me because I’ve looked for this photograph because I remember
for this photograph because I remember it so vividly but I want to find it
it so vividly but I want to find it again I don’t know who took it but it’s
again I don’t know who took it but it’s a picture of there were American on some
a picture of there were American on some college campus American protesters they
college campus American protesters they were protesting the Vietnam War and
were protesting the Vietnam War and there was this image of these these like
there was this image of these these like National Guard guys holding these guns
National Guard guys holding these guns and this young woman had gone up to the
and this young woman had gone up to the gun and put a flower in the barrel of
gun and put a flower in the barrel of the gun have you seen that picture and I
the gun have you seen that picture and I was a little you know just maybe four or
was a little you know just maybe four or five and I said to my mom I asked her to
five and I said to my mom I asked her to explain this photo to me what’s what’s
explain this photo to me what’s what’s happening here and she said that she
happening here and she said that she explained to me that that you know these
explained to me that that you know these people were in disagreement about
people were in disagreement about something they were on other sides of an
something they were on other sides of an issue and I said well why did they why
issue and I said well why did they why did the woman put the flower in the gun
did the woman put the flower in the gun and she said because she’s trying to zap
and she said because she’s trying to zap him back she’s trying to zap him with
him back she’s trying to zap him with super love
super love and she said that’s always the best you
and she said that’s always the best you know way to approach somebody who who
know way to approach somebody who who doesn’t like you or who disagrees with
doesn’t like you or who disagrees with you just zap them back with super love
you just zap them back with super love so they said that you know it creates an
so they said that you know it creates an opening between you I think that was you
opening between you I think that was you know really good advice and I think it
know really good advice and I think it has to do with compassion you know that
has to do with compassion you know that word calm it’s like to be with in
word calm it’s like to be with in passion and I just I think that most of
passion and I just I think that most of us are really deeply compassionate from
us are really deeply compassionate from the beginning you know anyone who’s had
the beginning you know anyone who’s had a child unless your child is a sociopath
a child unless your child is a sociopath for which I apologize you know but but
for which I apologize you know but but you know children have that kind of they
you know children have that kind of they identify with everything they feel the
identify with everything they feel the joy of the world in the pain of the
joy of the world in the pain of the world and you know the coolest thing for
world and you know the coolest thing for me as a mom is to try to explain hate to
me as a mom is to try to explain hate to my kids you know like when I’ve had to
my kids you know like when I’ve had to explain homophobia or explain the
explain homophobia or explain the Holocaust or explain and my kids are
Holocaust or explain and my kids are just like they don’t understand they do
just like they don’t understand they do not understand it and it’s because it
not understand it and it’s because it doesn’t make sense to to them and it
doesn’t make sense to to them and it only makes sense to us because we’ve
only makes sense to us because we’ve sort of been worn down right by a lack
sort of been worn down right by a lack of compassion and so I think that having
of compassion and so I think that having compassion is you know reigniting and
compassion is you know reigniting and remembering that that place where we
remembering that that place where we were we where we didn’t understand why
were we where we didn’t understand why you would harm anyone you know and this
you would harm anyone you know and this isn’t to say my kids don’t beat the hell
isn’t to say my kids don’t beat the hell out of each other I mean but you know
out of each other I mean but you know I’m not saying that there are these
I’m not saying that there are these idealized creatures but I think that
idealized creatures but I think that there is that kind of innocent place
there is that kind of innocent place that that we can kind of really relate
that that we can kind of really relate to each other with a sense of
to each other with a sense of understanding and kindness you know so
understanding and kindness you know so that’s a you know I would think you know
that’s a you know I would think you know the the highest value thing I hold in
the the highest value thing I hold in value the most is that kindness you
value the most is that kindness you mentioned about your the hike was like
mentioned about your the hike was like create your own rite of passage and you
create your own rite of passage and you said that our cultures have kind of
said that our cultures have kind of missed that any ideas how we can
missed that any ideas how we can credibly get that back particularly as
credibly get that back particularly as mothers because you talk so touchingly
mothers because you talk so touchingly about your mum yeah I actually think
about your mum yeah I actually think it’s really I mean I think we need to
it’s really I mean I think we need to bring it back you know we need to bring
bring it back you know we need to bring it back somehow and and you know that
it back somehow and and you know that and I think it has to do with being
and I think it has to do with being connected to nature because you know
connected to nature because you know that the cultures who still do rites of
that the cultures who still do rites of passage or the cultures who used to do
passage or the cultures who used to do rites of passage they’re almost always
rites of passage they’re almost always cultures who lived in a more tribal way
cultures who lived in a more tribal way and they’re far away that has is more
and they’re far away that has is more connected to the land in the earth and
connected to the land in the earth and nature and all that stuff and you know
nature and all that stuff and you know you see this you know that the young and
you see this you know that the young and often it is you know like the young boy
often it is you know like the young boy has to go out for three days or you know
has to go out for three days or you know and fast and meditate and you know the
and fast and meditate and you know the or or you know kill a elephant or
or or you know kill a elephant or whatever the hell you know and I think
whatever the hell you know and I think that obviously we can’t we can’t all do
that obviously we can’t we can’t all do that in our urban lives and such but in
that in our urban lives and such but in to do something for our children that
to do something for our children that allows them to you know do all the
allows them to you know do all the things like I talked about that I had
things like I talked about that I had like that I was you know I made
like that I was you know I made decisions and I suffered the
decisions and I suffered the consequences of them if they were the
consequences of them if they were the wrong decision or I benefited I got the
wrong decision or I benefited I got the triumph if they were the right I did it
triumph if they were the right I did it myself it has a deal to do with
myself it has a deal to do with resilience solitude working for working
resilience solitude working for working for you know what you get and and and
for you know what you get and and and also I think that the essentials you
also I think that the essentials you know one of the things on the PCT is
know one of the things on the PCT is that my main concerns were not they were
that my main concerns were not they were not emotional you know they were how do
not emotional you know they were how do I get water what am I going to have for
I get water what am I going to have for dinner how do I get over this mountain
dinner how do I get over this mountain safely you know it was it was it was
safely you know it was it was it was actually survival which which really
actually survival which which really can’t be replicated I think in our
can’t be replicated I think in our regular lives for most of us and so you
regular lives for most of us and so you know I’ve really thought about this for
know I’ve really thought about this for my own kids like what I’m what I’m so –
my own kids like what I’m what I’m so – look I’m just gonna drive them out I’m
look I’m just gonna drive them out I’m just say Happy Trails kids see you in a
just say Happy Trails kids see you in a month but um you know we’ll see but no I
month but um you know we’ll see but no I mean something like that we’ve got to do
mean something like that we’ve got to do and I don’t know what the answer is but
and I don’t know what the answer is but I do think that we can do it you know I
I do think that we can do it you know I think that we that that would be a
think that we that that would be a really helpful thing to a lot of our
really helpful thing to a lot of our kids to you know to force them to be
kids to you know to force them to be resilient yeah thanks so much everyone
resilient yeah thanks so much everyone thank you