all right good Monday morning this is
the third and final video where we where
I have Frederick as a guest we and the
previous episodes we talked we showed
Frederick’s project with fixing world
which is a neural network sandbox being
in my ball bearing something like it if
you want to check those Gugu so like
they’re really great but today we want
to take a step back and more like talk
about like why do a project like that
and why do projects in general that
don’t have a set goal in mind perhaps
like I did that are not defined by their
success or their outcome read more
exploratory yeah pricks yeah exactly
that’s what we’re gonna talk to talk
about today hello everyone this is me
Vijay from the future and I’m here in
New York City and I’m just here to read
you today’s sponsor message
today’s video is sponsored by Coursera
Thank You Coursera Coursera partners
with top universities such as UPenn
Imperial College London Google and IBM
to provide the world’s best online
education experience Coursera has over
three thousand courses in subjects such
as data science business blockchain you
name it either you could go for a single
course or an entire degree Coursera is
100% online and very affordable go check
them out at coursera.org that link is
also in the episode description all
right let’s get on with the show yeah
let me repeat a question that I asked
you in one of the earlier episodes but
we just touched on very slightly like
why why create this like wait why quite
great a like why spend months and months
and months and months all right
because you like business you’re not
employed anywhere like you’re not going
to
do this like this is just you basically
just yeah I’m gonna spend like a ton all
my savings
yes sitting around coding on this
project
yeah yeah why that’s a good question
yeah it’s not sort of like this is not
gonna be like this gonna be very hard to
flip ya there’s no monetary upside to
this I think ya know it’s purely a
passion products I think maybe if if
people didn’t watch the previous
episodes I could quickly mention that
what we’re talking about is basically
like somewhere between a game and a
research platform for evolution within a
computer where you pray to the creatures
and you like let them out into a world
and yeah basically exploration in
machine learning in in evolution and in
WebGL and typescripts yeah it’s all they
said I mean so of course part of this is
like the fascination of Technology and
just I really love programming and just
you know getting into that this
particular projects I mean I’ve done
many projects as you know before and
they go from everything from like games
into a gate toll and to like a bunch of
different things for this particular one
it was just a fascination with a
specific traffic topic which was
evolution and it started out as a
conversation with a friend many years
ago where we just talked about evolution
for for for a whole summer we’re just
talking about evolution because we were
so fascinated and then we started
thinking what did you both read the same
thing like nothing he’s from Texas and
he was telling me that like they didn’t
explain it too well in his school it was
very like you know brushed over and then
when it was kinda like we don’t want to
touch this because god I don’t know we
didn’t actually go too deep into that
but he didn’t he got curious about
evolution as an adult and then he wanted
to read about it and I’m from Sweden and
in Sweden they like they did talk more
about evolution school but as he was
talking about evolution I realized that
I didn’t know anything about evolution
as well so is this super interesting
topic to get into so this kind of led us
into exploring evolution and I just got
curious and then you know with this
project we started that like I got
curious curious again for different
reasons and then just kept you know
being here is he’s discovering like
every day finding something new that was
like oh I didn’t expect that and you
know just purely out of a sense of
exploration cannot I go into some new
country or some weird place that you’ve
never visited before and every step you
take you kind of go like oh what’s over
here like that’s odd
yeah what’s like I really like the sense
of like a world opening up itself when
you start learning a new field yes like
it was when I started when I started
getting into youtubing it was like this
enormous lee productive feeling of like
oh my god I can like like learn this
like I learned this like oh this is how
it works and learning about video
production again and like figuring out
like oh this is the microphones that
people are you saying and like there’s
so much you’re moving so fast and you’re
learning what you enter a new field
instead of like when I’m in web
development I kind of like okay there’s
you it’s a little bit like Redux
but it’s different a little bit like it
is like all that like this incremental
learning it’s like you know explosions
and yeah I mean it fits into the pattern
when you go from react to vivo or ever
that’s pronounced yeah when you do that
step it kind of fits into the pattern of
things you learned but when you go do it
completing you feel it’s like this sense
of exploration and yeah you just feel
your brain going into like this
plasticity that didn’t need to be right
and I I mean I have to say that Allah
the crossover between you know something
that you know and something that you
don’t know I mean in this case it’s
programming with
evolution and that’s just fascinating
because there’s an interplay between
these things that is a little bit
unexplored and there are many things
like that where you take one thing and
then you combine it with something else
and maybe no one has ever looked at
those two things in combination and you
might learn ton and you know you really
do something that no one has been doing
before yeah it’s I really like this is
pick sling as a project is surprising
like it’s I’m not sure if you can call
it art like my brother is an artist and
he’s like really picky about what you
can call art and I have this very
generic like super broad definition of
art that I talk about this programming
art but it’s I mean it doesn’t have it’s
purely exploratory right within then it
uses too I could use as a medium to
explore a concept right so it’s kind of
like what what is it it feels very arty
yeah I mean in a sense like when someone
paints a picture or you know makes a
movie that might be about exploring like
you know maybe a feeling or a topic or
something like that and it might be that
like you know it’s it’s just a pathway
into that you see this painting and you
go like oh that’s so interesting like
what is the story behind it and then you
start diving into that top and maybe
it’s about the artist or maybe sometimes
it’s about what they painted maybe they
painted like a beautiful place in a town
far away and you go like oh I wonder
what it’s like over there yeah and I
think in that sense this project is a
little bit like art because it’s you
know it’s it’s a window into like
evolution and you might start like in
one end and then you might become
interested in what oh I wonder how that
works I wonder how it works in nature
maybe I want to read a little bit about
it or maybe watch some YouTube videos or
something like this so yeah in that
sense I would say it’s a little bit of
art yeah I mean a product might also not
be defined by its like its its outcome
in sense that it might be it fun to
explore a restraint right
we back in the day when I was really
into TV production we had this team that
over the years have worked for a long
time we started out I was like happy
amateurs and after a while people like
gone off to school and learn like learn
the proper way to make movies basically
and a problem with that was that people
then learn how hard things were it’s
when you start out you just like yeah
we’re gonna do like this comedy show yes
like then it’s just ludicrous like a
diluted curse ambitious do you for
someone that doesn’t know it but we
managed to do it because we did not know
what the we were getting into yeah
so we just like oh no we’re stuck and
the the kind of normally the sunk cost
fallacy is a horrible thing that you
should like not fall into but as you’re
getting into something and you’re not
that and you’re like just learning
something it’s kind of useful I think it
has evolved for a reason that you just
like okay yeah okay this was not a good
idea to learn this but yeah now I’m in
it and I wanna like actually actually
finish it I think it’s possible that
humans if we didn’t have the Sun cost
fallacy humans might like be overwhelmed
by the pain of learning something new
yeah or just quit too early yeah exactly
it’s just like nobody would even the
projects that should be completed would
not be completed yeah I think I mean
Navitus there is a similar in this way I
mean a friend was asking me about advice
about starting a company and I mean I
I’m no businessman but like the one
thing I would say about you know
starting something new is that being
naive about it is actually to your
benefit because if you know all of the
stuff that you’re gonna have to do
knowing you’re gonna look at it you’re
gonna go like oh okay wow that is way
too much but if you start and you kind
of like oh I I can figure it out I don’t
know anything about it but I’m just
gonna start in one and then that’s
really to your benefit and then along
the way you’re gonna discover like small
problems and you go solve them and then
hopefully get all the way to them yeah
oh god that is such a good insight like
in pausing naïveté to just power
yourself through I guess throwing
yourself into a project and then like
getting yourself stuck in it and then
you think that’s darkness too like
completed there is such a painful
insight but it’s I think it’s generally
how you get things done because if you
start getting into like listing the
fears and disadvantages of something you
were gonna kill almost every project at
at the start of it yeah I think so but
what I wanted to get in get back to with
us like learning how hard things were we
let that to be us not doing much movies
at all so to torpedo us out of this
mindset I started this project called
initiative called 8:00 a.m. sharp and
the idea was that we met every every
Saturday morning 8:00 a.m. sharp and we
were not allowed to have any script or
even an ID and like we were allowed to
have sort of an idea I think and at 6:00
p.m. I believe the same day we were
supposed to have a finished movie
uploaded on YouTube all right
that was the reception like make it make
a movie in a day and make it like every
other week and the thing is like this
was also an event where everyone was
welcome basically as anyone could show
up Mico of like in our circle of friends
and that meant that and also like they
brought gear so sometimes we had like
this huge team of two we had two onset
teams divided into different locations
but and on some days we had like two
people and a cell phone camera but like
the rule was like always make do with
what you have we’re gonna make a movie
and we’re gonna make it hell or high
water all right yeah I mean there’s a
there’s a good
anecdotes from the Jack white artists I
used to really love the white stripes
and I learned everything I could about
them and then one thing that he was
saying was that he had talked as well
about like restrictions and how that can
breed creativity I was saying that on
stage what he would do would be to
always move his instruments a bit
further out so that it would be harder
for him to get to them as he would have
to switch between all these instruments
on live set and it was just so
fascinating to me that like in what a
world artist would do something like
that to himself yeah make it harder so
that you could be more interesting and
more creative with it it’s amazing yeah
I think that programming tools are way
too focused on making things easier and
more productive right like it would be
so like I read this article where
somebody was like what’s it like to work
without version control it was because
he had like this code like this coding
Tamara went on an iPad and then her
version control and yes like huh this is
interesting I wonder what this will do
with my coding yeah now that I kind of I
because it was an era without version
control I worked without version control
for four years because it wasn’t like a
big thing like deploying through FTP and
like a nice copying like oh we’re
copying like it’s now a sip yeah yeah
that would dark ages
so much time wasted version control is a
really good thing but working without it
has this interesting side effect you
just start programming it very
defensively and what he found himself
working in this super small units that
he didn’t have to change a lot so he
just broke extract like extreme function
extraction into files so like everything
like okay now this seems like a cohesive
unit now I can kind of permanent make
this permanent by extracting it Oh
interesting so function extraction was
like so in in a way he was himself his
own version control system
he has had to act the part of the
inertia control system it’s interesting
but I mean also I mean creative
restriction is also I mean nothing is
more daunting than like what you have
here which is a blank sheet of paper
just like nothing on it it’s it’s
everyone’s like biggest fear I like and
I think code editors in a way are like
that as well like you open up with like
you know this plan yeah and have you get
started yeah how do you want to do
something but you’re like there’s
nothing what would you do and it’s yeah
like getting started and like getting
yourself like your creative juices
flowing is like that’s such a big topic
in itself yeah I was started reading but
got stuck in this book called the
creative habit by Twyla Tharp think it’s
called that if it is like this Lincoln
in Lincoln the episode is gripping like
and she has like this she’s a Korra
choreographer and she has done this for
so many years and she’s very successful
and she’s like ultra methodical with her
creative approach like she has things
like this how do you like this I would
do with boxes this I do like it’s very
very practical and there’s a lot of
forms like to fill out and like so that
you can identify your own creative
profile and not what you’re like
creatively and just so fascinating to
see a person that works with creativity
as like the main craft like programmers
work it or creative but for us like
problem solving is kind of like the the
core issue and I think that it’s
fascinating for another person to read a
book like how to solve it for instance
which is about like how to solve
complicated problems and how to approach
it so programs are a lot like very good
at like being approached with a problem
and having like I’m no idea how to solve
this I mean now I’d say that programming
is such I mean it it started out as like
one thing but like it’s such a wide it
can be problem-solving yeah but I think
in my opinion it can also be extremely
exploratory I mean where what else can
you literally start with nothing and
then end up with like you know it
beep world that you can enter like you
can build the game where do you know the
3d game used by coding and to me it’s
like the it’s such an incredibly
creative tool but at the same time it
can also be this tool where you it’s
only like a very simple hammer and used
to go fix a very simple problem with it
that’s sucked that’s that’s
really interesting you know it’s we take
interviews like the the thing that we
used to qualify is this a good engineer
to let in to our companies they’re very
problem oriented they really like less
like okay implement sort of like
quicksort right there don’t I don’t
think people do that anymore but it’s
like solve this problem and in my
experience like the really successful
software teams in in organizations where
I’ve worked had been people that are
pretty innovative and a good at like ok
what what if we just do brow it’s I mean
it’s a little bit like you know painting
that you know you might if you’re a
company and you paint walls or do you
paint in general and you bite area
people and you give them a Russian if I
can use this and then some of them might
be like really good at painting a wall
yeah but then you know if you want to
create art or like you want to create
something that is not just solving with
the problem of covering it all with with
paint then it’s the same tool but but
it’s it’s a it’s the combination of
using that tool and the creativity of it
and I think the program is so it’s such
a wide spectrum of this like it’s really
like a paintbrush you can go all the way
from simple to super complex yeah I
think that I think you might also be
covered a little bit by how
organizations divide themselves they
kind of like programmers or chop into
this corner where they’re supposed to be
the ones implementing the creative ideas
of the designers and the product owners
while in reality like it’s probably I
really hope that
we find ourselves in a reality where you
can wecan great men make programming
more high-level so that it’s more
accessible to people that are of greater
profession so that there’s actually you
don’t have to spend so much time on
early programming that you also have
space for another craft like design or
or is there something like that yeah I’m
for sure I mean learning programming is
really like that you mean first you
learn how to use the tool but then you
also have to learn how to be creative
with it or how to like solve problems
that aren’t just like you know how do I
take this data and move it from here to
here and these types of problems yeah
miss take a look what’s with what were
we talking about we were talking about
like projects that or that we create
without the need for a specific outcome
we don’t do this like okay we’re gonna
solve this problem in the world or we
wanna I need to make money for my house
right it’s uh yeah I I’m not sure to run
is exactly what the conclusions around
this pretty sorry yeah I mean I think
it’s it’s I think it’s good I think it’s
you know perhaps that take away is that
the chemical to do these things
sometimes where you kind of let yourself
be curious and you know explore
something sometimes I mean a lot of
times especially for me like I know a
lot of times it doesn’t lead to anything
that’s particularly interesting but then
again like it’s sometimes you come to
something interesting and also like just
the process of exploring is in itself
like a bit of a gift I think it’s it’s
this sense of being in the landscape
that I’ve never seen before
yeah and also exploring it’s a bit
different from learning because learning
is more like then you can take a course
like thinking like okay I’m gonna take
this paved path that somebody that
thinks this is the way of learning
typescript or WebGL has taught me
exploring is more like okay now I kinda
learn no this
what can I do with it that I haven’t
done before that maybe no one has ever
done before
okay I combine this with this other
weird tool that I also happened to know
and or how can I apply this to this
weird problem is that even possible and
I think it’s actually a great way to
learn programming in the first place is
I mean for me that was really the path
of learning programming just being
curious about like what I could do even
when I had oh when I knew almost nothing
I mean I could
there’s someone showed me how to the you
know write three lines of quick basic
back in the stone Age’s and with that
you know like I could put things
together and like it didn’t make any
sense but the sense of time exploration
and going like oh why was I combine it
like this and what happens and that was
a great way to like learn programming
yeah I think that’s yeah so I think that
the the first leg that we talked about
and then we talked about instead of that
was exploration and then there was also
limitation like posting yourself like
creating starting to explore how what is
it like to create in a limited setting
like what happens if you disable version
control what happens if you work without
like what happens if you work in a much
simpler editor than you do like what
what like if you don’t have static
typing if you don’t and if you don’t
have unit testing what if those tools
were not invented and you could not
invent them for some reason I don’t do
to like I don’t know patents what what
would you create if you didn’t have an
internet connection
oh yeah that is true yeah that’s like oh
my god must be impossible I was saying
now to actually write a program without
an internet connection
yeah because we’re so dependent on
dependent on
like basically just npm yeah I mean I
don’t know how many times like the way I
program is that I come to a problem and
I’m good at googling like that’s my most
important skill as a programmer but I
know how to search for the solution to a
problem if you don’t have Google how
would you do it yeah yes you come to a
point in you like oh okay but I actually
accidentally had a sort of experience
like this in a company where like there
was this software it was written in
small talk and it was like compat
compiled down to this binary file and it
didn’t have the source code no
so but it was a critical part of their
business processes so I basically had to
but they did have input and output files
so I could provide it with an input file
and an output file
I see like back and see what that output
produce and then I could match that with
the rewrites that I was making
interesting so it’s kinda like this
became weird type of game and it could
also create kind of created like a
complete I had to invent a completely
new way of solving problems that I
hadn’t that’s it then that sighs nicely
back to neural networks I think because
if you had enough of those input about
the file so you could actually use to
train precisely that is actually like an
amazing point I think probably to be
honest had that amount of information
because it was a catalog company that
had years and years and years worth of
data so yeah you could probably train on
your left work on that that would be I
would be so interesting that I should
definitely have done that if I was there
now to spend their time it was a
horrible horrible company to work for
what like they’re actually actually
bankrupt now actually said sorry yeah I
feel good about hey Google killed them
all right oh yeah that that’s 25 minutes
think we like is there anything else we
should say before we wrap up we should
encourage you the audience to talk about
like what are projects that
you have created that have been
beneficial to you but have been made
without like a set goal or outcome in
mind that would be really interesting to
hear please write them in the comments
or on the fan fan forum if you’re a
patron and will like we can promise that
will reply to everything but we will
read everything improve things like my
pronunciation today is like it feels
like I’m tripping over my tongue it’s
like huge future New York mpj here again
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I’m M DJ I’m Fredrik Noren until next Monday morning stay curious
the third and final video where we where
I have Frederick as a guest we and the
previous episodes we talked we showed
Frederick’s project with fixing world
which is a neural network sandbox being
in my ball bearing something like it if
you want to check those Gugu so like
they’re really great but today we want
to take a step back and more like talk
about like why do a project like that
and why do projects in general that
don’t have a set goal in mind perhaps
like I did that are not defined by their
success or their outcome read more
exploratory yeah pricks yeah exactly
that’s what we’re gonna talk to talk
about today hello everyone this is me
Vijay from the future and I’m here in
New York City and I’m just here to read
you today’s sponsor message
today’s video is sponsored by Coursera
Thank You Coursera Coursera partners
with top universities such as UPenn
Imperial College London Google and IBM
to provide the world’s best online
education experience Coursera has over
three thousand courses in subjects such
as data science business blockchain you
name it either you could go for a single
course or an entire degree Coursera is
100% online and very affordable go check
them out at coursera.org that link is
also in the episode description all
right let’s get on with the show yeah
let me repeat a question that I asked
you in one of the earlier episodes but
we just touched on very slightly like
why why create this like wait why quite
great a like why spend months and months
and months and months all right
because you like business you’re not
employed anywhere like you’re not going
to
do this like this is just you basically
just yeah I’m gonna spend like a ton all
my savings
yes sitting around coding on this
project
yeah yeah why that’s a good question
yeah it’s not sort of like this is not
gonna be like this gonna be very hard to
flip ya there’s no monetary upside to
this I think ya know it’s purely a
passion products I think maybe if if
people didn’t watch the previous
episodes I could quickly mention that
what we’re talking about is basically
like somewhere between a game and a
research platform for evolution within a
computer where you pray to the creatures
and you like let them out into a world
and yeah basically exploration in
machine learning in in evolution and in
WebGL and typescripts yeah it’s all they
said I mean so of course part of this is
like the fascination of Technology and
just I really love programming and just
you know getting into that this
particular projects I mean I’ve done
many projects as you know before and
they go from everything from like games
into a gate toll and to like a bunch of
different things for this particular one
it was just a fascination with a
specific traffic topic which was
evolution and it started out as a
conversation with a friend many years
ago where we just talked about evolution
for for for a whole summer we’re just
talking about evolution because we were
so fascinated and then we started
thinking what did you both read the same
thing like nothing he’s from Texas and
he was telling me that like they didn’t
explain it too well in his school it was
very like you know brushed over and then
when it was kinda like we don’t want to
touch this because god I don’t know we
didn’t actually go too deep into that
but he didn’t he got curious about
evolution as an adult and then he wanted
to read about it and I’m from Sweden and
in Sweden they like they did talk more
about evolution school but as he was
talking about evolution I realized that
I didn’t know anything about evolution
as well so is this super interesting
topic to get into so this kind of led us
into exploring evolution and I just got
curious and then you know with this
project we started that like I got
curious curious again for different
reasons and then just kept you know
being here is he’s discovering like
every day finding something new that was
like oh I didn’t expect that and you
know just purely out of a sense of
exploration cannot I go into some new
country or some weird place that you’ve
never visited before and every step you
take you kind of go like oh what’s over
here like that’s odd
yeah what’s like I really like the sense
of like a world opening up itself when
you start learning a new field yes like
it was when I started when I started
getting into youtubing it was like this
enormous lee productive feeling of like
oh my god I can like like learn this
like I learned this like oh this is how
it works and learning about video
production again and like figuring out
like oh this is the microphones that
people are you saying and like there’s
so much you’re moving so fast and you’re
learning what you enter a new field
instead of like when I’m in web
development I kind of like okay there’s
you it’s a little bit like Redux
but it’s different a little bit like it
is like all that like this incremental
learning it’s like you know explosions
and yeah I mean it fits into the pattern
when you go from react to vivo or ever
that’s pronounced yeah when you do that
step it kind of fits into the pattern of
things you learned but when you go do it
completing you feel it’s like this sense
of exploration and yeah you just feel
your brain going into like this
plasticity that didn’t need to be right
and I I mean I have to say that Allah
the crossover between you know something
that you know and something that you
don’t know I mean in this case it’s
programming with
evolution and that’s just fascinating
because there’s an interplay between
these things that is a little bit
unexplored and there are many things
like that where you take one thing and
then you combine it with something else
and maybe no one has ever looked at
those two things in combination and you
might learn ton and you know you really
do something that no one has been doing
before yeah it’s I really like this is
pick sling as a project is surprising
like it’s I’m not sure if you can call
it art like my brother is an artist and
he’s like really picky about what you
can call art and I have this very
generic like super broad definition of
art that I talk about this programming
art but it’s I mean it doesn’t have it’s
purely exploratory right within then it
uses too I could use as a medium to
explore a concept right so it’s kind of
like what what is it it feels very arty
yeah I mean in a sense like when someone
paints a picture or you know makes a
movie that might be about exploring like
you know maybe a feeling or a topic or
something like that and it might be that
like you know it’s it’s just a pathway
into that you see this painting and you
go like oh that’s so interesting like
what is the story behind it and then you
start diving into that top and maybe
it’s about the artist or maybe sometimes
it’s about what they painted maybe they
painted like a beautiful place in a town
far away and you go like oh I wonder
what it’s like over there yeah and I
think in that sense this project is a
little bit like art because it’s you
know it’s it’s a window into like
evolution and you might start like in
one end and then you might become
interested in what oh I wonder how that
works I wonder how it works in nature
maybe I want to read a little bit about
it or maybe watch some YouTube videos or
something like this so yeah in that
sense I would say it’s a little bit of
art yeah I mean a product might also not
be defined by its like its its outcome
in sense that it might be it fun to
explore a restraint right
we back in the day when I was really
into TV production we had this team that
over the years have worked for a long
time we started out I was like happy
amateurs and after a while people like
gone off to school and learn like learn
the proper way to make movies basically
and a problem with that was that people
then learn how hard things were it’s
when you start out you just like yeah
we’re gonna do like this comedy show yes
like then it’s just ludicrous like a
diluted curse ambitious do you for
someone that doesn’t know it but we
managed to do it because we did not know
what the we were getting into yeah
so we just like oh no we’re stuck and
the the kind of normally the sunk cost
fallacy is a horrible thing that you
should like not fall into but as you’re
getting into something and you’re not
that and you’re like just learning
something it’s kind of useful I think it
has evolved for a reason that you just
like okay yeah okay this was not a good
idea to learn this but yeah now I’m in
it and I wanna like actually actually
finish it I think it’s possible that
humans if we didn’t have the Sun cost
fallacy humans might like be overwhelmed
by the pain of learning something new
yeah or just quit too early yeah exactly
it’s just like nobody would even the
projects that should be completed would
not be completed yeah I think I mean
Navitus there is a similar in this way I
mean a friend was asking me about advice
about starting a company and I mean I
I’m no businessman but like the one
thing I would say about you know
starting something new is that being
naive about it is actually to your
benefit because if you know all of the
stuff that you’re gonna have to do
knowing you’re gonna look at it you’re
gonna go like oh okay wow that is way
too much but if you start and you kind
of like oh I I can figure it out I don’t
know anything about it but I’m just
gonna start in one and then that’s
really to your benefit and then along
the way you’re gonna discover like small
problems and you go solve them and then
hopefully get all the way to them yeah
oh god that is such a good insight like
in pausing naïveté to just power
yourself through I guess throwing
yourself into a project and then like
getting yourself stuck in it and then
you think that’s darkness too like
completed there is such a painful
insight but it’s I think it’s generally
how you get things done because if you
start getting into like listing the
fears and disadvantages of something you
were gonna kill almost every project at
at the start of it yeah I think so but
what I wanted to get in get back to with
us like learning how hard things were we
let that to be us not doing much movies
at all so to torpedo us out of this
mindset I started this project called
initiative called 8:00 a.m. sharp and
the idea was that we met every every
Saturday morning 8:00 a.m. sharp and we
were not allowed to have any script or
even an ID and like we were allowed to
have sort of an idea I think and at 6:00
p.m. I believe the same day we were
supposed to have a finished movie
uploaded on YouTube all right
that was the reception like make it make
a movie in a day and make it like every
other week and the thing is like this
was also an event where everyone was
welcome basically as anyone could show
up Mico of like in our circle of friends
and that meant that and also like they
brought gear so sometimes we had like
this huge team of two we had two onset
teams divided into different locations
but and on some days we had like two
people and a cell phone camera but like
the rule was like always make do with
what you have we’re gonna make a movie
and we’re gonna make it hell or high
water all right yeah I mean there’s a
there’s a good
anecdotes from the Jack white artists I
used to really love the white stripes
and I learned everything I could about
them and then one thing that he was
saying was that he had talked as well
about like restrictions and how that can
breed creativity I was saying that on
stage what he would do would be to
always move his instruments a bit
further out so that it would be harder
for him to get to them as he would have
to switch between all these instruments
on live set and it was just so
fascinating to me that like in what a
world artist would do something like
that to himself yeah make it harder so
that you could be more interesting and
more creative with it it’s amazing yeah
I think that programming tools are way
too focused on making things easier and
more productive right like it would be
so like I read this article where
somebody was like what’s it like to work
without version control it was because
he had like this code like this coding
Tamara went on an iPad and then her
version control and yes like huh this is
interesting I wonder what this will do
with my coding yeah now that I kind of I
because it was an era without version
control I worked without version control
for four years because it wasn’t like a
big thing like deploying through FTP and
like a nice copying like oh we’re
copying like it’s now a sip yeah yeah
that would dark ages
so much time wasted version control is a
really good thing but working without it
has this interesting side effect you
just start programming it very
defensively and what he found himself
working in this super small units that
he didn’t have to change a lot so he
just broke extract like extreme function
extraction into files so like everything
like okay now this seems like a cohesive
unit now I can kind of permanent make
this permanent by extracting it Oh
interesting so function extraction was
like so in in a way he was himself his
own version control system
he has had to act the part of the
inertia control system it’s interesting
but I mean also I mean creative
restriction is also I mean nothing is
more daunting than like what you have
here which is a blank sheet of paper
just like nothing on it it’s it’s
everyone’s like biggest fear I like and
I think code editors in a way are like
that as well like you open up with like
you know this plan yeah and have you get
started yeah how do you want to do
something but you’re like there’s
nothing what would you do and it’s yeah
like getting started and like getting
yourself like your creative juices
flowing is like that’s such a big topic
in itself yeah I was started reading but
got stuck in this book called the
creative habit by Twyla Tharp think it’s
called that if it is like this Lincoln
in Lincoln the episode is gripping like
and she has like this she’s a Korra
choreographer and she has done this for
so many years and she’s very successful
and she’s like ultra methodical with her
creative approach like she has things
like this how do you like this I would
do with boxes this I do like it’s very
very practical and there’s a lot of
forms like to fill out and like so that
you can identify your own creative
profile and not what you’re like
creatively and just so fascinating to
see a person that works with creativity
as like the main craft like programmers
work it or creative but for us like
problem solving is kind of like the the
core issue and I think that it’s
fascinating for another person to read a
book like how to solve it for instance
which is about like how to solve
complicated problems and how to approach
it so programs are a lot like very good
at like being approached with a problem
and having like I’m no idea how to solve
this I mean now I’d say that programming
is such I mean it it started out as like
one thing but like it’s such a wide it
can be problem-solving yeah but I think
in my opinion it can also be extremely
exploratory I mean where what else can
you literally start with nothing and
then end up with like you know it
beep world that you can enter like you
can build the game where do you know the
3d game used by coding and to me it’s
like the it’s such an incredibly
creative tool but at the same time it
can also be this tool where you it’s
only like a very simple hammer and used
to go fix a very simple problem with it
that’s sucked that’s that’s
really interesting you know it’s we take
interviews like the the thing that we
used to qualify is this a good engineer
to let in to our companies they’re very
problem oriented they really like less
like okay implement sort of like
quicksort right there don’t I don’t
think people do that anymore but it’s
like solve this problem and in my
experience like the really successful
software teams in in organizations where
I’ve worked had been people that are
pretty innovative and a good at like ok
what what if we just do brow it’s I mean
it’s a little bit like you know painting
that you know you might if you’re a
company and you paint walls or do you
paint in general and you bite area
people and you give them a Russian if I
can use this and then some of them might
be like really good at painting a wall
yeah but then you know if you want to
create art or like you want to create
something that is not just solving with
the problem of covering it all with with
paint then it’s the same tool but but
it’s it’s a it’s the combination of
using that tool and the creativity of it
and I think the program is so it’s such
a wide spectrum of this like it’s really
like a paintbrush you can go all the way
from simple to super complex yeah I
think that I think you might also be
covered a little bit by how
organizations divide themselves they
kind of like programmers or chop into
this corner where they’re supposed to be
the ones implementing the creative ideas
of the designers and the product owners
while in reality like it’s probably I
really hope that
we find ourselves in a reality where you
can wecan great men make programming
more high-level so that it’s more
accessible to people that are of greater
profession so that there’s actually you
don’t have to spend so much time on
early programming that you also have
space for another craft like design or
or is there something like that yeah I’m
for sure I mean learning programming is
really like that you mean first you
learn how to use the tool but then you
also have to learn how to be creative
with it or how to like solve problems
that aren’t just like you know how do I
take this data and move it from here to
here and these types of problems yeah
miss take a look what’s with what were
we talking about we were talking about
like projects that or that we create
without the need for a specific outcome
we don’t do this like okay we’re gonna
solve this problem in the world or we
wanna I need to make money for my house
right it’s uh yeah I I’m not sure to run
is exactly what the conclusions around
this pretty sorry yeah I mean I think
it’s it’s I think it’s good I think it’s
you know perhaps that take away is that
the chemical to do these things
sometimes where you kind of let yourself
be curious and you know explore
something sometimes I mean a lot of
times especially for me like I know a
lot of times it doesn’t lead to anything
that’s particularly interesting but then
again like it’s sometimes you come to
something interesting and also like just
the process of exploring is in itself
like a bit of a gift I think it’s it’s
this sense of being in the landscape
that I’ve never seen before
yeah and also exploring it’s a bit
different from learning because learning
is more like then you can take a course
like thinking like okay I’m gonna take
this paved path that somebody that
thinks this is the way of learning
typescript or WebGL has taught me
exploring is more like okay now I kinda
learn no this
what can I do with it that I haven’t
done before that maybe no one has ever
done before
okay I combine this with this other
weird tool that I also happened to know
and or how can I apply this to this
weird problem is that even possible and
I think it’s actually a great way to
learn programming in the first place is
I mean for me that was really the path
of learning programming just being
curious about like what I could do even
when I had oh when I knew almost nothing
I mean I could
there’s someone showed me how to the you
know write three lines of quick basic
back in the stone Age’s and with that
you know like I could put things
together and like it didn’t make any
sense but the sense of time exploration
and going like oh why was I combine it
like this and what happens and that was
a great way to like learn programming
yeah I think that’s yeah so I think that
the the first leg that we talked about
and then we talked about instead of that
was exploration and then there was also
limitation like posting yourself like
creating starting to explore how what is
it like to create in a limited setting
like what happens if you disable version
control what happens if you work without
like what happens if you work in a much
simpler editor than you do like what
what like if you don’t have static
typing if you don’t and if you don’t
have unit testing what if those tools
were not invented and you could not
invent them for some reason I don’t do
to like I don’t know patents what what
would you create if you didn’t have an
internet connection
oh yeah that is true yeah that’s like oh
my god must be impossible I was saying
now to actually write a program without
an internet connection
yeah because we’re so dependent on
dependent on
like basically just npm yeah I mean I
don’t know how many times like the way I
program is that I come to a problem and
I’m good at googling like that’s my most
important skill as a programmer but I
know how to search for the solution to a
problem if you don’t have Google how
would you do it yeah yes you come to a
point in you like oh okay but I actually
accidentally had a sort of experience
like this in a company where like there
was this software it was written in
small talk and it was like compat
compiled down to this binary file and it
didn’t have the source code no
so but it was a critical part of their
business processes so I basically had to
but they did have input and output files
so I could provide it with an input file
and an output file
I see like back and see what that output
produce and then I could match that with
the rewrites that I was making
interesting so it’s kinda like this
became weird type of game and it could
also create kind of created like a
complete I had to invent a completely
new way of solving problems that I
hadn’t that’s it then that sighs nicely
back to neural networks I think because
if you had enough of those input about
the file so you could actually use to
train precisely that is actually like an
amazing point I think probably to be
honest had that amount of information
because it was a catalog company that
had years and years and years worth of
data so yeah you could probably train on
your left work on that that would be I
would be so interesting that I should
definitely have done that if I was there
now to spend their time it was a
horrible horrible company to work for
what like they’re actually actually
bankrupt now actually said sorry yeah I
feel good about hey Google killed them
all right oh yeah that that’s 25 minutes
think we like is there anything else we
should say before we wrap up we should
encourage you the audience to talk about
like what are projects that
you have created that have been
beneficial to you but have been made
without like a set goal or outcome in
mind that would be really interesting to
hear please write them in the comments
or on the fan fan forum if you’re a
patron and will like we can promise that
will reply to everything but we will
read everything improve things like my
pronunciation today is like it feels
like I’m tripping over my tongue it’s
like huge future New York mpj here again
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I’m M DJ I’m Fredrik Noren until next Monday morning stay curious
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