and it’s believed so well done good okay
we are alive so for everybody watching
I’m doing a one-on-one interview with
Dan pontefract he’s launching a new book
we like to say the title of the book we
could call the working title every time
a go for it okay so the book is he wrote
to me and I’m writing the book it’s
called let me see it’s work not Jail the
difference between a job and a career
with purpose and he wanted to interview
me for the book and I said hey let’s
turn this into a google hangout so
everybody can benefit from the knowledge
and and we can give Dan a little
promotion to so then welcome aboard uh
maybe just a quick intro for everybody
watching and then and then ask away
excellent well appreciate your time and
looking forward to this all week short
week but looking forward to nonetheless
Who am I well my last name means broken
bridge in Latin so I’d like to say Evan
I’m the antithesis of my last name I
like to build bridges nice so I’ve been
kind of an academic in the professional
ranks and currently chief envision or at
telus which is a fancy way to say we’re
here to help other organizations
transform their culture transform their
organizations and with my kind of
academic education experience in this
sort of last 12 years in the corporate
ranks I really have been noodling and
thus now I’ve been writing a lot over
the last five or six years about
organizations and people the first book
that came out about a year and a half
ago now flat army creating a connected
and engaged organization was the
investigation of what’s wrong with
essentially leadership and what might we
do from an organizational leadership
perspective to get people feeling better
inside the organization that they’re not
just part of the proletariat that in
fact you know they can be part of a
solution they can be included you know
in ideas and answers and customer-facing
solutions that’s I think one of the
problems with organizations say it’s
just so wretched from a
command-and-control Industrial
Revolution perspective that we needed a
new organizing culture now to me there’s
a yin yang to what
is every coin right so one side of the
coin is what’s wrong with leadership and
what should our organizations do this
next book which I really intrigued to
ask you questions about is the flip side
what’s wrong with us meaning the
employees in the organization I think
have a culpability to sort of that level
of disengagement in the organization I
think they need to take some ownership
and ultimately to induce some gumption
into their own working lives so I’m
curious from your perspective my first
question if you don’t mind yeah yeah
you’re right do you in your experience
have you noticed the difference between
people and their mindsets in a job in a
career and those that really are
flourishing like it seems that you meet
these people sometimes and they were
destined to do what they do and they
don’t think about it as a job or a
career and I wonder if if you had
definitions on or thoughts on the
difference between those types of titles
we’re getting deep right from the start
that wow he just hit me hard uh-huh you
know what I think a lot of people get up
every day in the morning and they drive
to job the date yeah uh I mean ideal
most with entrepreneurs I don’t deal so
much with the corporate side but I deal
with a lot of people who are in
companies who hate their job there and I
mean it’s their own fault for being in
this position but also the companies for
not necessarily recognizing the talent
or using them properly or standing for
something important I think a lot of
people I don’t know exactly the
direction you want to take with the book
if it’s like a guidance for for
companies and what to do but a lot of
people are a lot of people have a dream
for what they want to do you know like
we have a dream we wish we could do this
i always dream like it’d be a bowler but
instead I’m stuck doing you know PR for
whatever company and and we’re afraid to
chase our dreams and a lot of times that
James could could work within a company
but there’s so much you know as you go
down a pie
you get traction there and you get
experience there and society tells you
to keep going because that’s where the
money is it harder to switch paws
especially as you get older right it’s
hard to switch pass and do something
else that you feel you love and we get
stuck on this path and we get we have
you know dependence and family and
people we have to look after and then it
becomes really of these chains of habit
that hold you back be able to go after
what you really want to do so
interestingly then you touch on a couple
pieces there so one I wanted to really
poke your brain viscerally in the
forehead there is entrepreneurial there
are entrepreneurs and entrepreneurialism
sorry so in serve your experience what
distinguishes the entrepreneur who’s
successful and thus really knocking it
out of the park versus those that are a
hazard to use the term but wannabes and
they they’re sort of they’re trying hard
but there’s something missing are their
key traits behaviors you know attributes
that you see for the successful
entrepreneur then why he or she is love
and what they do versus those that
aren’t quite frankly yeah there are
there two main things that I’ve seen and
I’ve done tons of research model and
famous entrepreneurs and how they got
started and there’s no one common trait
in terms of personality trait a lot of
people think hey I have to be outgoing I
have to be well spoken i have to you
know the education side of things i have
to have a you know high school education
university education you don’t have to
be the type a personality you don’t have
to be a nice person to be a good
entrepreneur right like this all these
you may look at those people who are
making waves like Richard Branson and
Oprah Winfrey and the high-profile
people but there’s a ton of successful
entrepreneurs who are not high-profile
you hate or not people people you know
hate the limelight and just sit down do
their thing what makes a difference most
important things one is that you love
what you’re doing and too many people
that I see want to be entrepreneurs
because they want they’re chasing a
lifestyle they want to you know make
their make your own decisions neither
emboss it if they want to leave the
corporate ladder
they see opportunities to make money but
they’re not doing it because they have
this burning desire to do it they’re
doing it because they’re just trying to
make money and escape this life that
they don’t want yeah it’s so so so
important that you love what you’re
doing and you look at most entrepreneurs
the guys who have made it you look at
any famous success story it wasn’t easy
they failed for years and years and
years and years you know one of my
favorite stories is George Lucas who’s
from Lucas film star wars indiana jones
he went to film school at a time where
nobody what the films will ever got a
job and his whole family thought it was
crazy where you go to film school you
know everybody thought it’d just be a
ticket taker at Disney and his first six
years in business were total failure
total absolute failure no commercial
success at all he thought about quitting
and going to get a job like not only his
friends and family st. George you’re
nuts but he thought regularly about what
like what am i doing why am i sticking
with this thing yeah an eventual when he
made Star Wars he thought it was too
wacky for the general public he thought
people wouldn’t embrace it was too crazy
to out there and Star Wars became his
huge hit for him he’s not worth you know
four or five billion dollars whatever it
is but like do you have the passion to
stick with something through six years
of failure before become successful most
people don’t they quit because you have
to be a little bit you have to love what
you do so much that you would do it
anyway you’re doing it to do it and if
you do it long enough you find a way to
turn it into a business when most people
they don’t have that they don’t have
that passion enough and as soon as it
gets hard you’re doing something just to
make money you join a network marketing
company because your promise you know
big riches in three months if you do
these ten steps you develop this get
rich quick guide on whatever you those
things never work it always takes longer
than you think it’s going to take so
that’s the first part is like the guys
who become highly successful are
passionate they love what they’re doing
they keep going through all hurdles and
the second part is it got started yeah
like they actually got started and
that’s the big thing that a lot of
people don’t do if they’re working at a
company and they hate their job and they
hit their life and they have this vision
do something about it like
you ought to take some action you are
accountable for your life the cavalry is
not coming to save you you have to go
take action and do something it doesn’t
have to mean you quit your job and you
go full time and yet you burn all your
bridges nice but you’d like do something
small part time like you take steps
towards living the life that you want
and sometimes that’s a business and
sometimes that’s switching careers are
going to a new company doesn’t have to
be like as much as I force you know I
love entrepreneurship that’s my default
thinking but for a lot of people they
don’t want to be entrepreneurs and
that’s cool too yeah so does capitalism
play a part and that’s a detriment to
the success or unsuccess of people I you
mentioned it a couple times don’t do it
for the money do it for your passion for
your love do because that’s what in who
you are put on this earth for but does
keeping up with the Joneses and the
illusion of money the you know
capitalism in and of itself creates some
of that angst and some of that miss
conception and the perception that
that’s what you’re supposed to be uh uh
you know I haven’t thought that deeply
about it I don’t know if it’s capitalism
I don’t know if it’s a culture thing we
learned growing up to get a job right we
go to school you’re expected to go get a
job you don’t learn a lot about becoming
an entrepreneur in most classes you know
I didn’t I didn’t learn about it when I
went through University wasn’t classes
on entrepreneurship there isn’t enough
of a if we’re talking about curriculum
and education and you know societal
views there’s not enough about following
your passion like where do you learn to
follow your passion good not from where
you learn to take risk and like our
society will often I think at least in
North America there may be a little more
tolerance towards doing your own thing
and individualism than in other
countries where you’re expected to take
over you know the family business or
you’re expected to become a certain
profession because that’s how it’s been
for generations so other cultures might
have a harder time than then here in
North America
still like where do you learn how to
where do you learn how to find your
passion where do you learn what you’re
excited about and what kind of
opportunities that may lead you to wards
you know I became an entrepreneur when I
met two people University and they had a
business and asked him to join us a
struggling business I became a partner
in it up until then when I graduated
high school you look at my high school
yearbook it says I where are you in 20
years in the classic question I wrote VP
and a major investment bank yeah yeah
like that was my that was my dream job
and if I didn’t meet those two
entrepreneurs in university my life
would be totally different i turned down
opportunities with merrill lynch and
McKinsey Consulting at a university to
do my own thing with a struggling
business that wasn’t working because
somehow it just felt right anybody those
people would have happened like I’d be
in in in high school and into university
is it was that sort of your mindset I am
going to make money as an investment
hedge fund manager director vp and
anyway whoa wait a second there are
other ways that I’m programmed and by
meeting these cohorts you’re like oh
this is a different way which I can live
my life and was that a trigger because
of where you were before I don’t think
necessarily money was the number one
like I’m gonna go become an investment
Baker because I can make a lot of money
I was did in I was interesting it like I
like stocks I like I took finance
courses i liked economics like like that
so it’s just kind of like a natural
progression for me I knew I hated
sciences I dropped those as soon as I
could uh you know so I just moved
towards this because I enjoyed it but
but entrepreneurship as a path and and
having skills or tool sets or teachers
to help guide you on finding your
passion that I didn’t have that I mean I
went to private school to I’m scary what
happens in the public school system um
yeah we don’t have enough of it I mean I
didn’t have role models I didn’t have
people in my family for entrepreneurs I
didn’t have even distant family over
entrepreneurs I didn’t grow up around
entrepreneurs so it wasn’t wasn’t in my
psyche I think a lot of entrepreneurs
come
come from Ontario families you have to
learn it somewhere we’ve been inspired
somewhere booked a movie family you’re
you know somewhere you have to get
inspired by it um but it’s like you look
at the top guys look at guys who really
made it they’re doing it not they’re not
doing it for the money you know I look
at Steve Jobs Steve Jobs was a
multi-millionaire in his 20s yeah I’m
millionaire in his 20s and he kept
working until until he died trying to
make something great happen you know his
incentive was to put a dent in the
universe how many people keep working
when you have tens of millions of
dollars before you’re thirty and
strangely enough under his leadership
Apple became the most valuable company
in the world by market cap even though
his personal goal was never on the money
sure it’s important like you got to make
money you got to make money to eat you
know live all that your business has to
make money for shareholders but it was
never his number one goal and yet he
built the most valuable company more
where do you learn that yeah well so
then it would be an interesting segue to
ask you about sort of business schools
and what’s going on there like are we
just pumping out in MBAs and B comms and
just universities and colleges in
general more of what has been sort of
exacerbating the point that it’s it’s
money and economics that should be your
passion not real passion you mean like
is there something that you found in
today’s graduates or yesterday’s
graduates that’s the same um so I mean I
think of my experience I’m not so far
removed I’m holdem I’m 33 and 34 days
I’m not so far removed from I had an
undergrad degree Bachelor Commerce and
finance in University tronto uh I think
what it does well is give you the
technical tools to perform at a job so a
lot of people out of Rahman where I went
to went on to become accountants and
went on to become bankers and there’s
people my graduating class it and the
that the skills you learn the stats the
economics all of those skills you need
to use when you go out and get a job in
that yeah tougher questions like what if
that’s not even for you like for me I
was running my business while I was at
University and I discovered that this
wasn’t what I wanted so i’m in this
program that doesn’t support me so I you
know I don’t know I think it’s more like
how can we get because that’s great for
a lot of students you know that
experience is great they learn skills
it’s great they go get internship that’s
great it for people who really want that
path this is how do you help there’s so
much uncertainty and eggs and pressure
on young people coming out of high
school and university to pick one thing
that they’re going to do for the rest of
their life and focus on that and that
like we don’t give them the tools to
pick that thing how do you know what
what you’re supposed to do how do you
get exposure to entrepreneurship or
other interests that might help you
along your path in a better way if I
didn’t meet those two people I wouldn’t
be an entrepreneur so that would have
been a huge loss for me so as part of
your advice perhaps then maybe not so
much University that’s fine maybe it is
but like Network and broaden your
network and so much that you’re
experiencing other people and other
opportunities to this then not be so
myopic and perhaps what is that you know
what you think is the Destiny career
towards money and and sort of experience
and have the courage and the gumption to
go check out other things so that you
could be sort of spiritually and
emotionally and professionally
understanding other things are in this
planet for you as opposed to sort of the
you know the thoroughbred at the
racetrack that’s in there there one lane
yeah I think that shows the two-part
answer I think one you have a personal
responsibility to go out and discover
yourself and I think younger people are
not as motivated by money as older
people we don’t have as much you know
you don’t have as many responsibilities
you don’t have kids you don’t have a
mortgage money is not as important and
so uh younger people don’t
make as many decisions about money but
giving yourself you know uh a broad
range of experiences and open yourself
after opportunities and being receptive
to them I think you have a
responsibility young person to do that
on top of that though I think that that
we could do better as a society to
encourage some of these things to
encourage entrepreneurship in schools
that’s one thing I focus on but it’s
close to my heart because I think
there’s a lot of people who could be
great entrepreneurs who are stuck on a
path that they don’t like and they can’t
get off yeah but you know I’m not just
gonna blame the governments of the
government’s fault it’s not corporations
fault it’s all so you write like you
look into your life you gotta step up
take some responsibility it’s our
parents you know teaching your kids that
explore what you want to do you don’t
have to be an accountant just because
I’m an accountant you know um so with
both sides of society its government
corporate but it’s also family and your
own personal accountability for your
life well there’s a couple quotes on
Ritu because I think you’re you’re
speaking my language here so Vincent van
Gogh of all people said once your
profession is not what brings home your
weekly paycheck your profession is what
you’re put here on earth to do with such
passion and such intensity that it
becomes spiritual in calling and I think
for me as i’m doing this research for
the book and ultimately my experience as
well both directly vicariously and
indirectly as you said in the opening
here there’s a lot of people that are
driving to work in that commute angry
and frustrated because they’ve not been
able to separate the paycheck from that
intensity of what is their calling and
putting the effort towards what really
fuels them and it’s it’s frankly
disappointing because i think that’s the
culpability i’m speaking to of the
disengagement that’s prevalent in many
of our organizations yeah and i think
you know organizations would do well to
look at their their comfort their
employees and see you know
underperformers it doesn’t mean that
they can’t perform while at your company
maybe just in the wrong
right and and for people who are who
hate their jobs like you either complain
about it or you fix it no which camp
you’re going to be in like I like the
work of the people are going to fix it
and and that often means making tough
hard decisions I just have to mean the
jumping in and doing something full time
but trying and experimenting and it’s
it’s looked down upon like if you’re a
young person and you jump around from
job to job for the first five years it’s
looked down upon I don’t hurt me yeah
we’re really that’s the best thing that
you should be doing because you got to
find what you love because I’ll take the
first job if you get and you stick on
that career path for 30 years because
you’re going to you’re going to hate
your life you have to bounce around and
so that that that spirit is not
supported uh bye you know corporations
by families by our society but it’s
important for people to go through to
discover what is their calling yeah so
my math is right sort of you’re born in
80 yeah yeah yeah yeah so so I’m a 71 or
so I’m an excerpt in the middle between
the boomers and you guys in the
Millennials so I gotta ask you this is
it a generational issue is what a
generational issue this malaise inside
of the organizations where again it
doesn’t matter what age you are the data
suggests that people are disengaged and
ironically it more so Millennials right
now across the globe so is it because
boomers are preventing that curiosity
that bravery from Gen Xers and
Millennials do you see that not being an
issue and it’s just look each of us have
to determine what our DNA is and who we
are in order to fulfill what’s our
destiny and that’s what we’re not doing
regardless of age so I would kind of
combine it I think I think there’s I
think everybody has been as a call and
has a purpose has something that they
would be great
you know Michael Jordan’s great at
basketball if he was doing you know
Investment Banking he would be great and
it’s in good chain to the world to not
have Michael Jordan playing basketball
right and if he didn’t find I don’t know
how he picked up that first ball but if
that didn’t happen you know the world
would be a worse place because of it so
I think we all have something great
inside of us you got a channel and find
out what it is I think the generational
thing is interesting because we younger
people have more role models to look at
to see people who have busted through
and become successful it’s never been
easier to change to start your own
business you don’t need a million
dollars to launch a company you just
need a website you know we call these
young people doing great things becoming
big entrepreneurs at a pace that that we
haven’t seen before and so younger
people have more role models to look up
to of more possibilities to think about
where the older generation may have been
more school towards okay you go get your
job yeah you know like may suck but we
deal with it and they don’t think about
changing where the younger people we see
we see Mark Zuckerberg and all these
young entrepreneur and feel like I want
that man I want that with my life why am
I stuck doing this crap so I think we’ve
always I think it’s just human nature
think it’s been around forever just
younger people now we may have more role
models to look at people who had that
success and we feel like I want that for
me yeah exactly okay so another quote
that Plato so we’ll go real
philosophical on you right now Plato
said human behavior flows from three
main sources desire emotion and
knowledge so if you were to think about
the green buttons down here desire
motion knowledge okay so if you’re going
to go to the tenants of that that
employee that entrepreneur and if you if
Plato’s saying look our behavior really
is stemming from the fact that you must
have desire in order to fulfill
that life of purpose let’s say you must
have the emotion so you’ve got to be
jacked to actually want to do it and you
should have the intellect and the
knowledge expertise in which to fulfill
how do you see those three things that
plato was pontificating about in terms
of one’s purpose and behavior is it
relevant today yeah so my approach my
coach is a little bit different I think
everybody has has one word that helps to
find them so for me it’s belief but I
think everybody has their own word and
it’s it’s not um it’s not a profession
right and my word is in you know
accountant or lawyer or whatever but
it’s it’s a value something that we
value more than other things in our life
and I think this has been a constant
it’s a constant across your entire life
and so if you think about the movies you
like to watch the books you like to read
the friends you hang out with the songs
you like they’re all tied together by a
consistent theme there’s one word that
defines your whole life and when you
find that it makes it easier for you to
go make important life decisions and
where people often get a disconnect is
if they’re working at a company and
their word is drastically different than
what the company’s one word is then
you’re unhappy there’s a there’s a
there’s a philosophical fundamental
disagreement like you feel nauseous
working there because but it’s so if
you’re if you’re if your word was
different you know I like things that
are different i have to be different
everything i do is different you know my
house is different i like different
movies I’m a little off the wall
different and then you’re working at a
bank whose word isn’t even close to
being different you’re going to be
unhappy even if you’re doing you know
you’re a computer programmer and you
love computer programming and you’re
doing computer for me at the bank you’re
not going to be happy because your main
value is not aligned with the bank got
to find out what your one word is and
it’s not going to be it may not be the
exact same one word but it has to be
Lisa sister work and some companies this
is a challenge for companies do a better
job explaining what your one word value
is because most values look at the
mission statements and the values
as well but they’re cracked nobody
remembers any of them try to get the
companies to remember what their 10
values are you go see employees nobody’s
gonna be able to tell you what it is
some properties do a good job you look
at 3m three Emma’s innovation but that’s
their one word you know if you want to
work at 3m you got to love innovation
and if you are if you love innovation
you do great at three yeah if you don’t
like innovation you know innovative
thinker you’re not going to last long
you’re gonna hate your job if you’re
doing the right tasks if you like doing
so companies need to do a better job of
cutting through the crap and they’re
boring vs mission statements and values
that don’t mean anything to anybody and
come up with one word that helps to find
them does that make it easier for your
your team to be able to come on and say
hey I’m totally aligned I’d love this I
believe in a 2 i’m here with you
innovation believe whatever it is it
makes it so much easier well on that
i’ll leave you with my personal adage
and my one word so my adage is this what
I’ve lived by it since I probably turn
around 18 we’re not here to see through
each other we’re here to see each other
through and my one word that
encapsulates that is reciprocity nice Oh
what I offer to you is in this exchange
for great intelligence and your feedback
on what should be or the definitions of
job career and purpose is what I can do
for you to help you whatever you see fit
to allow me to pay it forward ie
reciprocity cool yeah I appreciate it I
appreciate hey got a question from one
of the YouTube viewers what do you think
about the 10,000 10,000 hours we
excellent something I watched a TED talk
which had you only need 20 hours yeah
although Malcolm is a Canadian like you
and I I I call BS on that as well you
know what we’ve seen people pick up the
violin because it was an innate skill
and all of a sudden they become a
magician we’ve seen people who didn’t
know that they could write haiku poetry
and next you know they’re pumping out
haiku poetry like it’s nobody’s business
sure I think if you want to excel
extremely well at something yeah I think
practice makes perfect the old
adage but just because you might not be
a good gardener doesn’t mean that you
can’t practice it and I don’t think it
Nestle means you need 10,000 hours to be
a better Gardner I just you know that
was marketing for me yeah well that came
that question came from chefs TV so
Thank You chefs uh my quick view is you
know it really depends if your passion
about it to you love something you’ll
learn it you’ll pick it up a lot faster
then if you’re just trying to plow
through something that you don’t hate
it’s going to take you a lot longer
precisely anyway day when is the book
come out looks like the spring of 24 no
2015 yeah so we’re really looking
forward to it cool well I’m gonna hop
another call but thank you so much at
the time appreciate it and keep me
posted with the progress hey thanks but
I do appreciate it all the best believe
buddy believe I reciprocity my god yours
we are alive so for everybody watching
I’m doing a one-on-one interview with
Dan pontefract he’s launching a new book
we like to say the title of the book we
could call the working title every time
a go for it okay so the book is he wrote
to me and I’m writing the book it’s
called let me see it’s work not Jail the
difference between a job and a career
with purpose and he wanted to interview
me for the book and I said hey let’s
turn this into a google hangout so
everybody can benefit from the knowledge
and and we can give Dan a little
promotion to so then welcome aboard uh
maybe just a quick intro for everybody
watching and then and then ask away
excellent well appreciate your time and
looking forward to this all week short
week but looking forward to nonetheless
Who am I well my last name means broken
bridge in Latin so I’d like to say Evan
I’m the antithesis of my last name I
like to build bridges nice so I’ve been
kind of an academic in the professional
ranks and currently chief envision or at
telus which is a fancy way to say we’re
here to help other organizations
transform their culture transform their
organizations and with my kind of
academic education experience in this
sort of last 12 years in the corporate
ranks I really have been noodling and
thus now I’ve been writing a lot over
the last five or six years about
organizations and people the first book
that came out about a year and a half
ago now flat army creating a connected
and engaged organization was the
investigation of what’s wrong with
essentially leadership and what might we
do from an organizational leadership
perspective to get people feeling better
inside the organization that they’re not
just part of the proletariat that in
fact you know they can be part of a
solution they can be included you know
in ideas and answers and customer-facing
solutions that’s I think one of the
problems with organizations say it’s
just so wretched from a
command-and-control Industrial
Revolution perspective that we needed a
new organizing culture now to me there’s
a yin yang to what
is every coin right so one side of the
coin is what’s wrong with leadership and
what should our organizations do this
next book which I really intrigued to
ask you questions about is the flip side
what’s wrong with us meaning the
employees in the organization I think
have a culpability to sort of that level
of disengagement in the organization I
think they need to take some ownership
and ultimately to induce some gumption
into their own working lives so I’m
curious from your perspective my first
question if you don’t mind yeah yeah
you’re right do you in your experience
have you noticed the difference between
people and their mindsets in a job in a
career and those that really are
flourishing like it seems that you meet
these people sometimes and they were
destined to do what they do and they
don’t think about it as a job or a
career and I wonder if if you had
definitions on or thoughts on the
difference between those types of titles
we’re getting deep right from the start
that wow he just hit me hard uh-huh you
know what I think a lot of people get up
every day in the morning and they drive
to job the date yeah uh I mean ideal
most with entrepreneurs I don’t deal so
much with the corporate side but I deal
with a lot of people who are in
companies who hate their job there and I
mean it’s their own fault for being in
this position but also the companies for
not necessarily recognizing the talent
or using them properly or standing for
something important I think a lot of
people I don’t know exactly the
direction you want to take with the book
if it’s like a guidance for for
companies and what to do but a lot of
people are a lot of people have a dream
for what they want to do you know like
we have a dream we wish we could do this
i always dream like it’d be a bowler but
instead I’m stuck doing you know PR for
whatever company and and we’re afraid to
chase our dreams and a lot of times that
James could could work within a company
but there’s so much you know as you go
down a pie
you get traction there and you get
experience there and society tells you
to keep going because that’s where the
money is it harder to switch paws
especially as you get older right it’s
hard to switch pass and do something
else that you feel you love and we get
stuck on this path and we get we have
you know dependence and family and
people we have to look after and then it
becomes really of these chains of habit
that hold you back be able to go after
what you really want to do so
interestingly then you touch on a couple
pieces there so one I wanted to really
poke your brain viscerally in the
forehead there is entrepreneurial there
are entrepreneurs and entrepreneurialism
sorry so in serve your experience what
distinguishes the entrepreneur who’s
successful and thus really knocking it
out of the park versus those that are a
hazard to use the term but wannabes and
they they’re sort of they’re trying hard
but there’s something missing are their
key traits behaviors you know attributes
that you see for the successful
entrepreneur then why he or she is love
and what they do versus those that
aren’t quite frankly yeah there are
there two main things that I’ve seen and
I’ve done tons of research model and
famous entrepreneurs and how they got
started and there’s no one common trait
in terms of personality trait a lot of
people think hey I have to be outgoing I
have to be well spoken i have to you
know the education side of things i have
to have a you know high school education
university education you don’t have to
be the type a personality you don’t have
to be a nice person to be a good
entrepreneur right like this all these
you may look at those people who are
making waves like Richard Branson and
Oprah Winfrey and the high-profile
people but there’s a ton of successful
entrepreneurs who are not high-profile
you hate or not people people you know
hate the limelight and just sit down do
their thing what makes a difference most
important things one is that you love
what you’re doing and too many people
that I see want to be entrepreneurs
because they want they’re chasing a
lifestyle they want to you know make
their make your own decisions neither
emboss it if they want to leave the
corporate ladder
they see opportunities to make money but
they’re not doing it because they have
this burning desire to do it they’re
doing it because they’re just trying to
make money and escape this life that
they don’t want yeah it’s so so so
important that you love what you’re
doing and you look at most entrepreneurs
the guys who have made it you look at
any famous success story it wasn’t easy
they failed for years and years and
years and years you know one of my
favorite stories is George Lucas who’s
from Lucas film star wars indiana jones
he went to film school at a time where
nobody what the films will ever got a
job and his whole family thought it was
crazy where you go to film school you
know everybody thought it’d just be a
ticket taker at Disney and his first six
years in business were total failure
total absolute failure no commercial
success at all he thought about quitting
and going to get a job like not only his
friends and family st. George you’re
nuts but he thought regularly about what
like what am i doing why am i sticking
with this thing yeah an eventual when he
made Star Wars he thought it was too
wacky for the general public he thought
people wouldn’t embrace it was too crazy
to out there and Star Wars became his
huge hit for him he’s not worth you know
four or five billion dollars whatever it
is but like do you have the passion to
stick with something through six years
of failure before become successful most
people don’t they quit because you have
to be a little bit you have to love what
you do so much that you would do it
anyway you’re doing it to do it and if
you do it long enough you find a way to
turn it into a business when most people
they don’t have that they don’t have
that passion enough and as soon as it
gets hard you’re doing something just to
make money you join a network marketing
company because your promise you know
big riches in three months if you do
these ten steps you develop this get
rich quick guide on whatever you those
things never work it always takes longer
than you think it’s going to take so
that’s the first part is like the guys
who become highly successful are
passionate they love what they’re doing
they keep going through all hurdles and
the second part is it got started yeah
like they actually got started and
that’s the big thing that a lot of
people don’t do if they’re working at a
company and they hate their job and they
hit their life and they have this vision
do something about it like
you ought to take some action you are
accountable for your life the cavalry is
not coming to save you you have to go
take action and do something it doesn’t
have to mean you quit your job and you
go full time and yet you burn all your
bridges nice but you’d like do something
small part time like you take steps
towards living the life that you want
and sometimes that’s a business and
sometimes that’s switching careers are
going to a new company doesn’t have to
be like as much as I force you know I
love entrepreneurship that’s my default
thinking but for a lot of people they
don’t want to be entrepreneurs and
that’s cool too yeah so does capitalism
play a part and that’s a detriment to
the success or unsuccess of people I you
mentioned it a couple times don’t do it
for the money do it for your passion for
your love do because that’s what in who
you are put on this earth for but does
keeping up with the Joneses and the
illusion of money the you know
capitalism in and of itself creates some
of that angst and some of that miss
conception and the perception that
that’s what you’re supposed to be uh uh
you know I haven’t thought that deeply
about it I don’t know if it’s capitalism
I don’t know if it’s a culture thing we
learned growing up to get a job right we
go to school you’re expected to go get a
job you don’t learn a lot about becoming
an entrepreneur in most classes you know
I didn’t I didn’t learn about it when I
went through University wasn’t classes
on entrepreneurship there isn’t enough
of a if we’re talking about curriculum
and education and you know societal
views there’s not enough about following
your passion like where do you learn to
follow your passion good not from where
you learn to take risk and like our
society will often I think at least in
North America there may be a little more
tolerance towards doing your own thing
and individualism than in other
countries where you’re expected to take
over you know the family business or
you’re expected to become a certain
profession because that’s how it’s been
for generations so other cultures might
have a harder time than then here in
North America
still like where do you learn how to
where do you learn how to find your
passion where do you learn what you’re
excited about and what kind of
opportunities that may lead you to wards
you know I became an entrepreneur when I
met two people University and they had a
business and asked him to join us a
struggling business I became a partner
in it up until then when I graduated
high school you look at my high school
yearbook it says I where are you in 20
years in the classic question I wrote VP
and a major investment bank yeah yeah
like that was my that was my dream job
and if I didn’t meet those two
entrepreneurs in university my life
would be totally different i turned down
opportunities with merrill lynch and
McKinsey Consulting at a university to
do my own thing with a struggling
business that wasn’t working because
somehow it just felt right anybody those
people would have happened like I’d be
in in in high school and into university
is it was that sort of your mindset I am
going to make money as an investment
hedge fund manager director vp and
anyway whoa wait a second there are
other ways that I’m programmed and by
meeting these cohorts you’re like oh
this is a different way which I can live
my life and was that a trigger because
of where you were before I don’t think
necessarily money was the number one
like I’m gonna go become an investment
Baker because I can make a lot of money
I was did in I was interesting it like I
like stocks I like I took finance
courses i liked economics like like that
so it’s just kind of like a natural
progression for me I knew I hated
sciences I dropped those as soon as I
could uh you know so I just moved
towards this because I enjoyed it but
but entrepreneurship as a path and and
having skills or tool sets or teachers
to help guide you on finding your
passion that I didn’t have that I mean I
went to private school to I’m scary what
happens in the public school system um
yeah we don’t have enough of it I mean I
didn’t have role models I didn’t have
people in my family for entrepreneurs I
didn’t have even distant family over
entrepreneurs I didn’t grow up around
entrepreneurs so it wasn’t wasn’t in my
psyche I think a lot of entrepreneurs
come
come from Ontario families you have to
learn it somewhere we’ve been inspired
somewhere booked a movie family you’re
you know somewhere you have to get
inspired by it um but it’s like you look
at the top guys look at guys who really
made it they’re doing it not they’re not
doing it for the money you know I look
at Steve Jobs Steve Jobs was a
multi-millionaire in his 20s yeah I’m
millionaire in his 20s and he kept
working until until he died trying to
make something great happen you know his
incentive was to put a dent in the
universe how many people keep working
when you have tens of millions of
dollars before you’re thirty and
strangely enough under his leadership
Apple became the most valuable company
in the world by market cap even though
his personal goal was never on the money
sure it’s important like you got to make
money you got to make money to eat you
know live all that your business has to
make money for shareholders but it was
never his number one goal and yet he
built the most valuable company more
where do you learn that yeah well so
then it would be an interesting segue to
ask you about sort of business schools
and what’s going on there like are we
just pumping out in MBAs and B comms and
just universities and colleges in
general more of what has been sort of
exacerbating the point that it’s it’s
money and economics that should be your
passion not real passion you mean like
is there something that you found in
today’s graduates or yesterday’s
graduates that’s the same um so I mean I
think of my experience I’m not so far
removed I’m holdem I’m 33 and 34 days
I’m not so far removed from I had an
undergrad degree Bachelor Commerce and
finance in University tronto uh I think
what it does well is give you the
technical tools to perform at a job so a
lot of people out of Rahman where I went
to went on to become accountants and
went on to become bankers and there’s
people my graduating class it and the
that the skills you learn the stats the
economics all of those skills you need
to use when you go out and get a job in
that yeah tougher questions like what if
that’s not even for you like for me I
was running my business while I was at
University and I discovered that this
wasn’t what I wanted so i’m in this
program that doesn’t support me so I you
know I don’t know I think it’s more like
how can we get because that’s great for
a lot of students you know that
experience is great they learn skills
it’s great they go get internship that’s
great it for people who really want that
path this is how do you help there’s so
much uncertainty and eggs and pressure
on young people coming out of high
school and university to pick one thing
that they’re going to do for the rest of
their life and focus on that and that
like we don’t give them the tools to
pick that thing how do you know what
what you’re supposed to do how do you
get exposure to entrepreneurship or
other interests that might help you
along your path in a better way if I
didn’t meet those two people I wouldn’t
be an entrepreneur so that would have
been a huge loss for me so as part of
your advice perhaps then maybe not so
much University that’s fine maybe it is
but like Network and broaden your
network and so much that you’re
experiencing other people and other
opportunities to this then not be so
myopic and perhaps what is that you know
what you think is the Destiny career
towards money and and sort of experience
and have the courage and the gumption to
go check out other things so that you
could be sort of spiritually and
emotionally and professionally
understanding other things are in this
planet for you as opposed to sort of the
you know the thoroughbred at the
racetrack that’s in there there one lane
yeah I think that shows the two-part
answer I think one you have a personal
responsibility to go out and discover
yourself and I think younger people are
not as motivated by money as older
people we don’t have as much you know
you don’t have as many responsibilities
you don’t have kids you don’t have a
mortgage money is not as important and
so uh younger people don’t
make as many decisions about money but
giving yourself you know uh a broad
range of experiences and open yourself
after opportunities and being receptive
to them I think you have a
responsibility young person to do that
on top of that though I think that that
we could do better as a society to
encourage some of these things to
encourage entrepreneurship in schools
that’s one thing I focus on but it’s
close to my heart because I think
there’s a lot of people who could be
great entrepreneurs who are stuck on a
path that they don’t like and they can’t
get off yeah but you know I’m not just
gonna blame the governments of the
government’s fault it’s not corporations
fault it’s all so you write like you
look into your life you gotta step up
take some responsibility it’s our
parents you know teaching your kids that
explore what you want to do you don’t
have to be an accountant just because
I’m an accountant you know um so with
both sides of society its government
corporate but it’s also family and your
own personal accountability for your
life well there’s a couple quotes on
Ritu because I think you’re you’re
speaking my language here so Vincent van
Gogh of all people said once your
profession is not what brings home your
weekly paycheck your profession is what
you’re put here on earth to do with such
passion and such intensity that it
becomes spiritual in calling and I think
for me as i’m doing this research for
the book and ultimately my experience as
well both directly vicariously and
indirectly as you said in the opening
here there’s a lot of people that are
driving to work in that commute angry
and frustrated because they’ve not been
able to separate the paycheck from that
intensity of what is their calling and
putting the effort towards what really
fuels them and it’s it’s frankly
disappointing because i think that’s the
culpability i’m speaking to of the
disengagement that’s prevalent in many
of our organizations yeah and i think
you know organizations would do well to
look at their their comfort their
employees and see you know
underperformers it doesn’t mean that
they can’t perform while at your company
maybe just in the wrong
right and and for people who are who
hate their jobs like you either complain
about it or you fix it no which camp
you’re going to be in like I like the
work of the people are going to fix it
and and that often means making tough
hard decisions I just have to mean the
jumping in and doing something full time
but trying and experimenting and it’s
it’s looked down upon like if you’re a
young person and you jump around from
job to job for the first five years it’s
looked down upon I don’t hurt me yeah
we’re really that’s the best thing that
you should be doing because you got to
find what you love because I’ll take the
first job if you get and you stick on
that career path for 30 years because
you’re going to you’re going to hate
your life you have to bounce around and
so that that that spirit is not
supported uh bye you know corporations
by families by our society but it’s
important for people to go through to
discover what is their calling yeah so
my math is right sort of you’re born in
80 yeah yeah yeah yeah so so I’m a 71 or
so I’m an excerpt in the middle between
the boomers and you guys in the
Millennials so I gotta ask you this is
it a generational issue is what a
generational issue this malaise inside
of the organizations where again it
doesn’t matter what age you are the data
suggests that people are disengaged and
ironically it more so Millennials right
now across the globe so is it because
boomers are preventing that curiosity
that bravery from Gen Xers and
Millennials do you see that not being an
issue and it’s just look each of us have
to determine what our DNA is and who we
are in order to fulfill what’s our
destiny and that’s what we’re not doing
regardless of age so I would kind of
combine it I think I think there’s I
think everybody has been as a call and
has a purpose has something that they
would be great
you know Michael Jordan’s great at
basketball if he was doing you know
Investment Banking he would be great and
it’s in good chain to the world to not
have Michael Jordan playing basketball
right and if he didn’t find I don’t know
how he picked up that first ball but if
that didn’t happen you know the world
would be a worse place because of it so
I think we all have something great
inside of us you got a channel and find
out what it is I think the generational
thing is interesting because we younger
people have more role models to look at
to see people who have busted through
and become successful it’s never been
easier to change to start your own
business you don’t need a million
dollars to launch a company you just
need a website you know we call these
young people doing great things becoming
big entrepreneurs at a pace that that we
haven’t seen before and so younger
people have more role models to look up
to of more possibilities to think about
where the older generation may have been
more school towards okay you go get your
job yeah you know like may suck but we
deal with it and they don’t think about
changing where the younger people we see
we see Mark Zuckerberg and all these
young entrepreneur and feel like I want
that man I want that with my life why am
I stuck doing this crap so I think we’ve
always I think it’s just human nature
think it’s been around forever just
younger people now we may have more role
models to look at people who had that
success and we feel like I want that for
me yeah exactly okay so another quote
that Plato so we’ll go real
philosophical on you right now Plato
said human behavior flows from three
main sources desire emotion and
knowledge so if you were to think about
the green buttons down here desire
motion knowledge okay so if you’re going
to go to the tenants of that that
employee that entrepreneur and if you if
Plato’s saying look our behavior really
is stemming from the fact that you must
have desire in order to fulfill
that life of purpose let’s say you must
have the emotion so you’ve got to be
jacked to actually want to do it and you
should have the intellect and the
knowledge expertise in which to fulfill
how do you see those three things that
plato was pontificating about in terms
of one’s purpose and behavior is it
relevant today yeah so my approach my
coach is a little bit different I think
everybody has has one word that helps to
find them so for me it’s belief but I
think everybody has their own word and
it’s it’s not um it’s not a profession
right and my word is in you know
accountant or lawyer or whatever but
it’s it’s a value something that we
value more than other things in our life
and I think this has been a constant
it’s a constant across your entire life
and so if you think about the movies you
like to watch the books you like to read
the friends you hang out with the songs
you like they’re all tied together by a
consistent theme there’s one word that
defines your whole life and when you
find that it makes it easier for you to
go make important life decisions and
where people often get a disconnect is
if they’re working at a company and
their word is drastically different than
what the company’s one word is then
you’re unhappy there’s a there’s a
there’s a philosophical fundamental
disagreement like you feel nauseous
working there because but it’s so if
you’re if you’re if your word was
different you know I like things that
are different i have to be different
everything i do is different you know my
house is different i like different
movies I’m a little off the wall
different and then you’re working at a
bank whose word isn’t even close to
being different you’re going to be
unhappy even if you’re doing you know
you’re a computer programmer and you
love computer programming and you’re
doing computer for me at the bank you’re
not going to be happy because your main
value is not aligned with the bank got
to find out what your one word is and
it’s not going to be it may not be the
exact same one word but it has to be
Lisa sister work and some companies this
is a challenge for companies do a better
job explaining what your one word value
is because most values look at the
mission statements and the values
as well but they’re cracked nobody
remembers any of them try to get the
companies to remember what their 10
values are you go see employees nobody’s
gonna be able to tell you what it is
some properties do a good job you look
at 3m three Emma’s innovation but that’s
their one word you know if you want to
work at 3m you got to love innovation
and if you are if you love innovation
you do great at three yeah if you don’t
like innovation you know innovative
thinker you’re not going to last long
you’re gonna hate your job if you’re
doing the right tasks if you like doing
so companies need to do a better job of
cutting through the crap and they’re
boring vs mission statements and values
that don’t mean anything to anybody and
come up with one word that helps to find
them does that make it easier for your
your team to be able to come on and say
hey I’m totally aligned I’d love this I
believe in a 2 i’m here with you
innovation believe whatever it is it
makes it so much easier well on that
i’ll leave you with my personal adage
and my one word so my adage is this what
I’ve lived by it since I probably turn
around 18 we’re not here to see through
each other we’re here to see each other
through and my one word that
encapsulates that is reciprocity nice Oh
what I offer to you is in this exchange
for great intelligence and your feedback
on what should be or the definitions of
job career and purpose is what I can do
for you to help you whatever you see fit
to allow me to pay it forward ie
reciprocity cool yeah I appreciate it I
appreciate hey got a question from one
of the YouTube viewers what do you think
about the 10,000 10,000 hours we
excellent something I watched a TED talk
which had you only need 20 hours yeah
although Malcolm is a Canadian like you
and I I I call BS on that as well you
know what we’ve seen people pick up the
violin because it was an innate skill
and all of a sudden they become a
magician we’ve seen people who didn’t
know that they could write haiku poetry
and next you know they’re pumping out
haiku poetry like it’s nobody’s business
sure I think if you want to excel
extremely well at something yeah I think
practice makes perfect the old
adage but just because you might not be
a good gardener doesn’t mean that you
can’t practice it and I don’t think it
Nestle means you need 10,000 hours to be
a better Gardner I just you know that
was marketing for me yeah well that came
that question came from chefs TV so
Thank You chefs uh my quick view is you
know it really depends if your passion
about it to you love something you’ll
learn it you’ll pick it up a lot faster
then if you’re just trying to plow
through something that you don’t hate
it’s going to take you a lot longer
precisely anyway day when is the book
come out looks like the spring of 24 no
2015 yeah so we’re really looking
forward to it cool well I’m gonna hop
another call but thank you so much at
the time appreciate it and keep me
posted with the progress hey thanks but
I do appreciate it all the best believe
buddy believe I reciprocity my god yours
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