three two one the hangout on air is live
all right walk everybody another YouTube
hang out super excited to be here I’ve
got a friend of the channel and kind of
mini celebrity on the channel gets a ton
of positive feedback and comments Marc
Dreier from phantom media I also runs
the not-so corporate podcast and he
wants to interview me about risk I said
hey let’s turn into another video mark
always brings a ton of value to the
channel so mark and his team from France
and media are there on the other side
and they’re gonna interview me and let’s
get talking about risk so welcome aboard
guys and let’s do it hello hello so for
everyone in Evans channel my name is
Mark Trager i’m the founder of phantom
media i got over here on our podcast
podcast regular role in h of area hello
hello everyone and over there extremely
pregnant is Leah are all extremely
extraordinarily pregnant yeah so
tomorrow is her last day with us before
she goes on that leaf so we managed to
sneak this in like the right suitor a
wire special episode with Roland always
he is microphone and glasses just saying
perfect hiding it was like he’s got this
mystique about him that you will not
anyway it’s good night you see the
visual medium no used to the idea hey no
one would have to see any of this stuff
and we can edit like crazy but anyway
listen Evan thanks so much for joining
us on our podcast I really appreciate
you making the time available and for
everyone who’s listening on on the not
succour podcast evan is also live Google
hanging out with us so we got Evan and
his whole crew is all audiences whole
believe nation welcome all that’s right
man i love it haha so i wanted to bring
you on to talk about risk because you
know we’ve known each other for for
close to a decade and you’ve been
someone in my life as an entrepreneur
who’s really pushed me to to take things
to the next level to change things i’m
not sure how much roland and Leah are
gonna jump in on this conversation
because I me know I’m gonna be honest
with you you were on with us in May 4
episode 5 where we talked about one word
and since then anytime I mention you
guys every time I mention you they make
fun of me they make fun of me for
bringing you up every single episode
every single week that’s not the usual
impact I have
isn’t gonna be honest is that he’ll not
feeling the love she’s like I have a fur
I’ve this friend and we’re like is it
evident it’s always of it so could just
say Evan Evan I i I’m a friend ever
surprised yeah we’ve been friends for a
long time yeah she just say Zevon any
way to get to the point about risk
though and to get the topic of it as you
know we’ve had a lot of change in our
business over the last six months to a
year and about a month ago I made a
major business change where I decided to
restructure part of the business and so
I actually sat down and thought to
myself if I gotta make this big move if
I gotta do something that that is
something that I’m not emotionally
comfortable with I have no experience
with in business I don’t know what’s
ahead of me like I know that I think
it’s a smart move but but gosh it’s so
much more comfortable to just to just
stay the way I’m going stay the course
I’m going it’s more comfortable it seems
less risky and so I started doing a lot
of research on just how someone decides
like like how we perceive risk how we
associate risk profiles how we as people
try to stay within our comfort zone and
so I wanted to talk this out on the on
the podcast and and and i thought well
who is someone who I know has taken what
I think to be the biggest risks in their
businesses well over the years I mean
when when we first met you were running
a publishing type company where you had
a blog and a website that would help
entrepreneurs and help connect people
with articles and then a few years ago
you were like I’m shutting it down and
I’m completely going a different
direction and rebuilding who I am and
I’m like wow that was like a huge risk
but to you you never seem to slow you
down and hold you back so in your own
life and the advice you give and the
people you talk to I just want to spend
a bit of time trying to break this myth
because I’m out on the other side now
I’m only six weeks out of making a big
big big change but I feel like a little
bit more comfortable with risk now that
I understand kind of the mechanics of it
all that said give you are you
comfortable sharing that like the big
changes you’ve taken in your life and
and how you like emotionally and kind of
rationally become comfortable with these
huge risks it’s interesting because I
don’t actually see them as huge risks ah
maybe that’s just me executing instead
of what
cider see I think that the the biggest
risk that I ever took that really was
like the stomach the the knots in my
stomach an like I don’t know if I should
do this or not was when I was in
University and I had the opportunity to
join my first company and startup
company and it wasn’t making a lot of
money and I had opportunities to work at
the banking job that I thought I always
wanted you know my high school yearbook
said I was going to be a VP at a bank in
10 years and I had that dream job kind
of lined up for me in eighteen hundred
thousand starting salary and travel
around the world and the only fluent in
New York and put me up in the Waldorf
Astoria for the first interview and kind
of really pushing me hard core to
recruit me for the job that I thought I
always wanted and then they had this
opportunity to join this startup company
that was in scientific software and
science was my worst subject and nothing
both software and something just drew me
to this opportunity but it was not the
smart the smart thing to do yo
quotations it was by far the riskier
thing to do at least in my head at the
time and what helped me through that was
just understanding that I didn’t want to
live with regret and I think that
thought process helps me whenever
there’s something that’s kind of risky
ahead of me I look to my life you know
90 years old looking back and would I
regret not doing this thing and if it’s
yes and I have to do it and that that
makes that doesn’t make the fear go away
just makes the fear a lot lower I
because there’s this new pain the pain
of missing out is greater than the pain
of the fear of doing it and so that was
the biggest thing where all my friends
thought I should go take the job and I
just I was really struggling in
questioning myself and then when I
started that company I wasn’t successful
I was making three hundred dollars a
month and I was too ashamed and
embarrassed to tell my friends that that
I wasn’t doing well and they asked me
how you doing so yeah i think is a great
landing new deals like I’m the one
supposed to be live in the entrepreneur
lifestyle meanwhile I was really
struggling and I thought I made a huge
take and I’ve never felt so worthless in
my life than when I first started my
business and I turned down those jobs uh
I love emotional thinking back to that
thank you Mark appreciate that uh no one
you’re the one who went there I just
back to the hard days you the conduit
the conduit hundred of pain with thanks
yeah rollin rollin thing so degrees the
team agrees anyway not a mark is a great
guy and if I said that my channel
freaked out on me because they love you
so much so I gotta be careful um yeah I
think ever since then I you know and it
did end up working out so I mean I had a
happy story coming out of it but ever
since then I’ve always used when I
wanted to do something and I was afraid
of it it’s thinking am I going to regret
this like if I don’t take my shot if I
don’t try right now am I going to regret
this and if it’s yes and I have to go
out and do it and so a lot of the
expansion’s I guess that you’ve seen as
you’ve known me in the past decade those
are just me being curious about things I
run tons of differents all the time tons
and most of them don’t go anywhere most
of them never get off the ground either
because they weren’t good ideas nobody
cared about them or i scratch the itch
and that’s it you know I don’t want to
spend the next 10 years of my life doing
this you know I tried it cool I’m done
and I’m moving on to something else and
the ones that I’ve stuck with like my
youtube channel moving from being a
publishing house to going all in on
YouTube just came from me starting on
YouTube and trying on youtube and you
young mark was instrumental me getting
started and being part of my first
videos it’s and so I’ve just constantly
evolved my business around things that
are being curious about and I think that
the bigger mistake that entrepreneurs
make and I get people in general but on
tours of my audience you get comfortable
and when you first start in something
you’re learning and you’re growing in
and you’re developing yourself and then
you hit
wall where you stop learning and me
because you’re interested in anymore and
you just evolved as a human being and if
your if your career your business
doesn’t evolve with you you’ll get
increasingly frustrated and that’s why
most people hate the jobs that they go
to like ninety percent of people wake up
and drive to a job that they hate every
single day and that is insanely risky to
me like not being able to follow
something that you are passionate about
is the greatest risk of all in my mind
we’re betting on yourself to do
something amazing I see as being far
less risky yeah but in business are
things you can control the things you
can’t control there are there are market
condition changes and you know you could
have your whole sales related on you
know crazy this think about your
entirely generation process being being
reliant on google and then Google
rewriting their algorithm and you losing
sixty percent your business like what
happened to us three years ago and and
so you know there are all these things
that happen and sometimes you can make
just little tweaks little pivots little
changes to stay up with them and I don’t
think anyone would consider those risky
because you’re just you’re just hungry
you’re feisty or scrappy you just trying
to stay alive and then I guess where we
were you know over the last few months
and and what I’ve recently worked
through are these big proactive you know
let’s say that you want to leave your
job to start a new company that is a big
life that’s not that’s not the natural
progression it’s not you saying well i’m
gonna start slow i’m going to start part
time I’m going to prove I’m gonna test
it’s gonna work and then I’m gonna go
out there like when I started my company
I quit my job I quit my job and my
daughter was three months old and my
wife was at home with her with no other
source of income and I went this is
working or not working uh and so people
were like wow that’s really risky I was
like was it I mean I I guess it I guess
it was but there are these big choices
we have to make proactively that you
have to make to either be protective of
what you have or to take the next step
for the next leap and I think we’re
fearful of the risk of the unknown how
do you how do you deal with that just
start smaller start a smaller yeah and
you start smaller you have a big run but
I’m start
you know but it’s not you don’t stay
small you have a big dream but this is
your dream I want to be up here and I’m
down here and this is some huge scary
thing I have to jump up the cliff I’m
never going to do it and those are the
people who never start a company who are
always too fearful and who stay on the
corporate track and and those are the
guys who live with regret for the rest
of their lives where you could get to
hear right that’s a little that’s easier
and then you get to hear and you get to
here and you climb your way up I’m not a
fan and there’s different schools of
thoughts but I’m not a fan of the guys
who say burn burn the bridges quit your
job and go all in on your business and
it’s the only way to make it work out I
think most people who do that end up
burning through their savings in three
months and end up going back and getting
the job I think the better way to do it
is start a business on the side start
small moonlight work at a job where
you’re going to learn the skills to make
you a better entrepreneur work for
somebody who has you know the ideal
company that you want to build in three
years who has ten employees or less and
is somebody who really look up to and
learn from them and be a sponge and get
paid to make mistakes and get paid to
make contacts and get paid then they’re
saying how your industry works and start
your business on the side or if you’re
already in a business you want to do
something now start that thing on the
side like you have lots of hours after
office hours clothes to start pursuing
the things that you’re really passionate
about and then if you can turn that into
a full time income not like living
luxury not buying Ferraris or anything
but pain internet bills and then the
food bills into it’s more important than
food it’s woot data and where you live
then then you can quit and go all in on
your business so starting small doesn’t
mean you stay small you start small you
build it up see if you get tracked to
see if you like it like a lot of people
start it and then they hate it and then
you’ve burned your bridges like see if
you actually like doing this thing or
not right how do you actually know it’s
like you look at a girl and you think oh
she’s going to be my perfect wife well
how do you know until you start dating
so you know you start getting to know
her better ready can look great on paper
be great in your mind but until you
actually start doing it you don’t know
if you’re going to fall in love with it
or not so don’t make it out to be this
big huge risk just start small and test
to see if it’s for you I don’t like that
i haven’t groomed my business that way i
quit my job and i started my company
income and then five months later I had
almost no money left and I went this is
it this is it I gotta make it work and
then I figured out how to make it work
and then three years later recession hit
two years later and I burned it through
all my cash and I went should I fold in
no I’m gonna give it one more kick of
the can and I took a big risk and took a
loan and hired a sales person and then I
built that up and i took risk and I
hired up staff and then you know
recently we’re shifting the business a
bit and and we’re proactively making
changes like every step I go with what I
do is I look forward and I say okay if
this is where the markets going in three
years or five years and it’s expensive
to be ahead of the curve but it’s worse
to be behind it if this is what’s
happening is this what the clients are
saying if this is where the markets
going if these are the conditions that
are changing I have no choice but to
change so I might as well change now and
get comfortable with it and get ahead of
it so I don’t even feel like I have
control over the changes I make I feel
like I have to do it but it’s still
risky it’s still scary it’s still all
those things but I didn’t I didn’t I
don’t know maybe I should have done it
the way you said we still started small
we still started really really small
everything has to start small and you
got a mature and get better and get
stronger will have you but i think i’ve
just made bigger swings than that I
guess I don’t know you talk about you
told me not to hot you know you told me
not to take on the loan not to hide
their sales person not to do all of
those other things many many years ago
and I was like and i’ll go ahead and do
it anyway and it worked out like it
worked out for you which is great but we
were I remember that conversation in my
office i was saying don’t don’t hire the
sales guy because I was concerned that
you would blow through the money not see
results and end up having to go back and
get a job where if and it happens to a
lot of entrepreneurs like they take out
a loan and then their thing doesn’t work
out and then for the rest of their lives
are paying back this third mortgage on
their house because they wanted to start
a t-shirt business and they needed to
buy 10,000 units of this t-shirt to get
the price breaks they wanted and they
sold for you
9996 t-shirts sitting in your garage
that’s a lot of businesses and I and it
like it kills me to see it and a lot of
people don’t have the strength of
courage and then start up and do it
again like you got screwed over the
first time you took your big bet you
lost it takes a lot of guts to not be
forever scarred by that and because you
have that everything loved ones with you
though to write like you know if I
wanted to make a big change my wife
would kind of be like listen I let you
make a big change ten years ago like
like I don’t know if you get another
credit to to take another swing at this
with something else so I think you also
have your social your loved ones your
other people who you know that not
necessarily the little man but but you
know you kind of cashed in your goodwill
chips on the first swing and maybe they
won’t support you on the second no but
they had to be there for the long run
they have to be there this is do they
think they should I mean I think I mean
the way I deal in the way it is been my
relationship we’re like which is like we
were there for each other we whatever
happens we bounce off of each other
ideas we talk but at the other day is
the two of us force of the world and
that’s it a business puts an insane
amount of stress on a relationship money
is one of the biggest reasons why people
break up and if you are the only
bleeding money and you can’t sustain
your lifestyle something I can’t work
out it just puts a lot of stress and
that can push a lot of couples over the
edge and so if you found that person
that you can get through everything
worth that’s awesome um a lot of people
have great relationships but they just
can’t sustain it through it and and and
if they’ve gone through it once to
Mark’s point maybe they don’t want to go
through it again you know so and now you
have more people to support make a five
people you’re supporting right who me
yeah oh and a cat and a cat the ways if
I yeah my cat has like kidney issues
apparently there’s no recession might be
five people well there’s my wife and my
father survived an addition to your wife
I want something I don’t know yeah no no
for kids for kids our secret child Oh
for kids thank you very much but I’ll
run this by this is this not a question
this is just something that that I’ve
been thinking about my
read about to which helped comfort me in
this time of big change in big risk and
that was that a lot of us when we have
to make a change we go okay so so let’s
say let’s say we need to hire someone
new right we need to hire someone in we
go we go okay I need to hire this new
person oh gosh what could go wrong if I
hire this new person if I heard this
person what’s the worst-case scenario
what are and then you think about all
the things that can go wrong and then
maybe the slight chance we’ll go right
and you associate a risk profile that
you say I’m comfortable with this risk
or I’m not comfortable with this risk
and and then and then we go on our merry
way we make decision but but what I
learned and and why I’ve been a little
bit more proactive recently is what we
don’t do is associate risk profiles with
not changing we don’t go hey you know
things are going great right now wait
what is the risk associated with not
keeping up with not rd with not hiring
with not changing with not staying on
top of it and and I never did it before
I never didn’t up until six weeks ago
where I really sat down and said okay
ice can see all the risks associated
with change but what are the risks
associated with not changing with
staying still and and when I started to
look at in that way I went as
uncomfortable and as emotionally against
this decision I am I like I have to
because because in my business a
creative service draven business in an
extremely competitive market the risk of
not changing is huge it’s it’s really
huge and I never I’m almost a decade
into this and I had never considered it
I don’t have a question for you what are
your thoughts on that though uh it’s
interesting I am NOT the numbers guy I
don’t make decisions based on numbers I
don’t really make a lot of decisions
based on where the industry is going or
what the trends are for me it’s if I’m
excited about something i am going to
will it into existence and i will find a
way to make it happen and it’s always
worked out for me i think a lot of
people look at you know ink magazine
will put out the hundred hottest
startups just create this summer and you
know I could try some of them but it’s
not going to work for me because I’m not
passionate about those things where I
think the greater risk if you’re talking
about the theme
risk is if I start to lose passion for
something if I start to lose excitement
for something if i’m not creative any
more about the thing i’m working on then
i need to get rid of it i need to either
it’s either been built up to the point
where i can hire a team this one with my
publishing company i didn’t get rid of
it i just brought a team on to manage it
and run it and then i went off to do
something else or if it’s not at that
point yet then you kill it like if you
cannot sustain somebody coming on and
being a part of it and affording their
salary i knew making some money off of
it then you move on move on to something
else I think that’s I think that’s a
great decision making kind of framework
if you’re thinking about your own
day-to-day in your own operations in
your own role but when you have a larger
company if you have 10 or 15 or 20 or 30
staff and you have different levels of
hierarchy or whatever in your control of
a larger I mean not a huge organization
but a larger kind of entrepreneurial
organization you have to you have to
like the ship is a little bit harder to
move than when it’s you and two other
people are you yourself and you’re
trying to side like what you’re
passionate about each day I think the
key thing there is is constantly see a
lot of people do this like oh we’re
doing this okay we’re in our box grater
in a box it’s working okay the box isn’t
working it anymore it’s not working as
much and it starts getting worse worse
worse meanwhile you’ve done zero
innovation and changing in what you’re
doing and then it forces you to become
this big new thing and take this big
painful leap because you’ve invested so
much in old Corp and the team and
everything else has been a part of it
we’re really what your business should
be is a constant evolution constantly
trying new things so you don’t build up
decades of baggage underneath you that
you now painfully have to shed so it’s
always trying something new right you
should your team should be used to
trying new things you should bring
people on and and test their positions
tried put in them in something new they
should be evolving as you evolve your
company so it doesn’t become this huge
big shift because you notice Oh prop I’m
and doing the wrong thing for too long
questions guys see normally we get to
cut all this stuff out when we when we
look around the table and go who has a
question for Evan no I was writing
something I was writing in something
down side note okay
and so you know on this on this risk
side do you think that people so I get
following your passion I listen I i I’m
a big believer in taking what you say
and then Reese pinning it as my own
stuff I mean it’s been fast like it
makes me sound this is why this is why I
talk about you on every podcast because
i usually am crediting you actually but
not so Evan podcast this is really
almost Evan Potter yes yes yes yes we’ve
already established that I’ve said this
friends you know the roof I’ll just
mentions name’s Evan Carmichael now
anyway uh you know I i I’ve totally you
know drunk the kool-aid in terms of you
know don’t spend the time working on
your weaknesses lean into your passions
lean into your strengths why would you
work to overcome those things and all
that stuff and that’s why it was such a
tricky then mark that was amazing are
you sure you drank the kool-aid could
you really think it was sounds like it
is it there was gin in the kool-aid I
think you were trying just to say that
impress your friends are you like a pic
gallery I liked it Paul Kelly picking on
mark this is great lesson they weren’t
they weren’t doing this is pure glass
what they weren’t on with us it was just
I was hard enough not don’t have you
have you evolved the show have you taken
some new risks and try new things to
make it better we are easy rehab I’m not
saying let’s say i think i’m risk averse
but when i look at what other people do
what other people put up with when i
hear that they’re not happy with their
job when you know i have i have
arguments with people at parties or I’m
like how can you go to work and not let
love what you do how can you be on a
sunday night how can you see yourself I
gotta go to work tomorrow I don’t I
don’t want to hear that I say that to
the staff it’s like it’s like if
something’s keep making you say I don’t
I gotta go to work two more on a sunday
night tell me what that is if I can fix
it I want to fix I want monday mornings
to be something where you’re like
excited to talk over this have you other
stuff I have never heard you say that on
one on one maybe not with you because
you’ve been on mat leave lot Alana and I
were capturing this special moment
together guys but but this is this is
what I want I want people who want to
come into work and I want it to be a
great place of passion all that stuff
and it’s fine you’ve been on that leave
a lot Leah I wish ur we want to say that
life
for all of our non-canadian listeners
and viewers we get a year of Matt leave
up here so leah was on Matt Lee for a
year and then came back and how long
have you been back for the eight nine
eight months is she’s going on that leaf
or another year so so risk risk with
having to re staff people who are
producers of podcasts and stuff but
anyway so in your business though you
know again I you mentioned I think you
kind of glossed over if I can call you
if I can call you back to the time where
you where you know you were running the
publishing business you were running
that it was a major source of income for
you your I mean you poured yourself into
it like you’re pouring yourself into
YouTube when you’re writing your book
and speaking everything you do like as
for anyone who’s watching is obsessive
as evan is in like making things happen
at salsa at the salsa place or anything
else like he has always been this way
but you you you literally put that to
bed you were like you’re like one day
you’re like nah we’re not doing that I’m
now going all-in over here and and then
within a few weeks or a month it was
like tada the new you you didn’t see any
risk in that uh you didn t know man I
sure there’s no fear in this there was
no you know I I’m confident that if I
get behind something I can turn it into
something and even when it doesn’t get
turned into something I can put blinders
on and just go for the next thing I
don’t know I don’t know man it might be
just blind optimism as an entrepreneur
or just supreme confidence in myself but
when I’ve decided that I’m gonna do
something I just go out and do it until
I don’t want to do it anymore and I
gonna do something else okay so what we
were talking about this in the opening
of the podcast sir your number is a
billion entrepreneurs or a hundred
million I couldn’t a billion yes billion
entrepreneurs yeah yes that is huge
every one of the garage door guys have
you hash Liza is that is that is that
like individual like individual 1
billion individual people are like or
have you broken that down into like
contacts or impressions or something
like that here’s the thing i’m not so
attached to the outcome I’m never
attached to the outcome I’m attached to
the process and what it makes me do is
think about are the activities that I’m
spending my time
congruent with me having a major impact
on the world so it means that I say no
to a lot of things right like a lot of
people want to do an interview right for
maybe someone to anything for their blog
the other blog isn’t that big do I want
to spend the time interviewing some of
these I’m not gonna reach a lot of
people so let’s turn it into a YouTube
hanging out right and so i can send more
messages to my audience i can introduce
that person to my audience and you know
like doing the book if the book is not a
huge book then it’s a failure for me
right i will not be happy with it i
don’t i don’t want to do small projects
i want to do the things that will have a
major impact on this planet that’s what
inspires me and so I don’t care about
hitting the billion as much it’s not
like oh I picked the billing ok now I
need a new goal what’s next what does
hundred billion write the entire
population it is the it’s the process I
think people get too addicted to making
the million dollars right it’s the
process it’s the game that is
interesting that drives me much more
than the result of the okra so then how
do you keep score because I know you’re
competitive um I have smaller goals I
mean so I look at my youtube channel I
wanted to be the number one person imma
agency I have it I have an aging in New
York there was another guy who was ahead
of me on youtube I said I’m gonna beat
that guy and I beat that guy haha I now
so I mean I have the most popular
youtube channel for entrepreneurs we’ve
300,000 subscribers and 32 something
million views on the channel and any
other kind of entrepreneur focus channel
nobody’s nobody’s ahead of me some are a
little close but I’m growing faster than
they are so now it’s okay what’s next
next I want to hit a million subscribers
and so those are like those are nice
goals like they’re motivated okay what
do I need to do to get two million
subscribers how do I keep growing the
channel we know how do i work on how to
improve myself but you need to you need
to understand that it’s not just the
numbers game because to do the things
that get two million subscribers I’ll
often hold myself back I’ll hold my
channel back as an example I have the
life with Evan series on my channel
it’s a personal series as every week
it’s me going to Disney World with with
friends and Mike and you know my my son
when I post like with Evan videos it I
lose subscribers it doesn’t gain
anything I lose subscribers but I do it
because it builds a closer connection
for the people who do watch between me
and them the in special series that I
started that I start every morning you
know every day you start with an
interesting video when I go off on
adding comments on it I was losing some
subscribers and we talked about this in
person you and I mark but the
interesting series wasn’t doing as well
as I thought it would I was losing some
subscribers on some of my in special
series and that was a shock to me
because it’s supposed to be something I
would drive a lot of attention and
awareness and so those clips are you see
a clip from Steve Jobs talking about
something and then I comment on it and
it could have been easy and I tested it
just to remove myself and just show the
clip and if I was just chasing the
million subscribers just chasing that
goal then that would have worked but you
lose the soul that wasn’t interesting
for me I wanted to work on myself until
the challenge became okay I need to get
myself to the point where somebody watch
a Steve Jobs video and then they saw me
they would not tuned out when I came on
that’s a huge insane maybe not possible
challenge the one that I’m excited by
but it’s completely against hitting the
million subscribers at least in the
short term if I cut myself out I would
get there faster so it’s not just about
hitting the numbers i think if you just
get sucked into hitting the numbers and
lose the soul of your business then that
ends up being the long term most
riskiest thing that you can do so i have
i’m gonna switch the direction towards
fears in a second before i do i have to
say i watched yesterday evening Your
Madrid a library keynote okay watch the
whole thing the last time I saw you
speak in public it was to a much smaller
crowd and you didn’t want to stand up
there you had a piece of paper with
someone
bio and you just kind of read it in like
kind of a nervous shy way many many
years ago I couldn’t I couldn’t believe
I couldn’t believe that I was watching
you up there on that video because you
were you’re amazing so is that just
because you’ve just worked at it is it
like like you were like I’ve known you
for a long time I was like wow like I
was genuinely I was impressed with with
your your content in your keynote and
your passion and your stage delivery and
every day I was like I didn’t know the
side of you I’m pissed cuz i hate that
video I feel like I under under
delivered on that video I feel like with
the time and effort practice i
under-delivered yeah yeah and for me I
don’t take a lot of especially overseas
stuff because it takes away a lot of
time away from me doing what I’m doing
here that’s a week that’s a week out of
my life to go to do one speech to you
know that was a group of librarians and
if I did not move people in there then
that would be an insane waste of my time
I don’t care about yeah sure i got paid
you know i wasn’t i got paid to be there
my hotel and fight everything was paid
for but i’m not motivated by money and
motivated by impact and if i didn’t have
an insane impact there then it was a
failure and it was ok but but i could
have been watching that back like man I
thought I was better I felt better on
stage but it wasn’t good enough and so
yeah I’ve come a long way yes great like
I love yes I’m not hating on myself it
was pretty good people loved it
afterwards we’re talking to me I’m glad
that you enjoyed it the audience enjoyed
it but it’s not to wear I know I can be
and that pisses me off and it comes from
practice like I’ve done three thousand
videos I’ve done tons of interviews I
care less about what people think I’m
more confident in myself I’ve done it
over and over and over and over again
and each time I do it I get better so
you know I appreciate the warm
sentiments and it’s a pretty good video
but I’m pissed because I know what to do
way better and that fuels need to want
to do better the next time what you say
is a video company the video was kind of
so-so in mediocre but your delivery was
fair the content anyway so switching
gears a bit to fears i think that the
reason you know obviously fear
it’s a and controls a lot of us in terms
of what we do and don’t do and why we
would move forward or wouldn’t I think
risk naturally I mean it’s fear that
makes us think that risk is risky versus
not risky because as much as you might
want to rationalize things to yourself
or use numbers or use logic at the end
of the day you know you’re going to
follow your heart and if you’re fearful
to take a step or do something then that
will control you what advice do you give
for us business owners for us creatives
for for us entrepreneurs in terms of
just being able to be aware of fear
manage fear push through it without
being a foolish yeah it’s a great
question i think i think the people say
don’t be afraid i don’t know what
they’re talking about I think fear is
normal I think I think it’s more feel
the fear and do it anyway I think the
biggest restriction on your human
potential is your limiting personal
beliefs which are driven a lot in fear
like I don’t deserve this Who am I to be
able to do this and most of it is so
subconscious that you just keep doing
the same thing over and over and over
and over again you keep saying no to the
right potential opportunities because
those fears and those looming person
will use to keep coming back you keep
playing the same record and you don’t
have the awareness like you hit the nail
on the head by saying that keyword the
first step is understanding that you’re
holding yourself back in this certain
area for me it was I have a I have a
need to feel like I hate wasting
people’s time I ever need to feel
valuable I want to feel like when I
leave a meeting with somebody that I’ve
helped them right from my need to have
impact until the negative side is i
might hold myself back and I used to
hold myself back a lot from meeting
people because I was worried that I
wouldn’t be able to provide them with
value and so I always end up over
delivering that’s the positive side but
it’s out of a fear that I won’t be
helpful enough to people and I would get
calls to you know go to speak at events
and and I would say yes and then the day
before I would secretly hope that they
would cancel on me
because I was afraid that I wouldn’t be
able to give them value even though i
know that i always give value and people
always leave even like meetings with
with entrepreneurs who are just SAT
there startup stage and I know I can
help them I would feel like I hope they
cancel or I’m feel a little sick maybe I
should cancel on them and because I was
afraid that I wouldn’t be able to help
them but I always did you know I always
help them I’ve never had that I don’t
know where it came from because I oh
I’ve never had a situation I’ve been in
a meeting with somebody or presentation
and didn’t get value from it but it’s
just pushing through that it’s
recognizing that hey I don’t go take
that meeting I don’t go do that
presentation that i’m never going to get
to where I want to be so it’s feeling
the fear understand you need
acknowledging it not letting it just be
in my subconscious that keeps holding me
back and in doing it anyway you know
push through the fear and do it anyway
you said something once to me imissu in
passing and it stuck with me and I try
to do this before every meeting before
every call now because because I you
know I mean fear controls a lot of my
decisions as well and I’ve written up on
my board you know he’s very buddy mark
such as you everybody everybody I had no
kin that’s fair i just i just know that
i am ab the people i talk to I am
abnormally fearful like like I’m like oh
we can’t do then he’s like I just I lack
as much as I might seem bold I do I just
know that I’m aware of it now which is
great so I’ve written on my board you
know are you acting out of fear so I can
constantly myself it would be the point
where before I would jump on a sales
call with someone I I too would be like
not not value driven but just well what
if they ask something of me I don’t have
an answer for and say I’ve been doing
this a long time like I I should trust
the system I should trust that the
people would give me a chance to speak
or to answer things but you said
something to me once which I really held
on to and I’ve even expanded that to
everything now you said it right before
like a video or right before a hangout
or right before a presentation you know
you have the opportunity as the speaker
as the participator to change people’s
lives to make an impact do something big
I take that now to every single
interaction like before I walk into a
meeting with someone or all i’m doing is
scoping a project i go you know what if
i do this meeting well if we
have if my intentions are pure and we do
the best thing for the client I have the
chance to change this company’s a
direction I have the chance to change
this person’s career path just in this
meeting I can change their lives and I
and I’ve taken that and it’s given me
the freedom to be able to come in like
really swinging hard because because I’m
not just going to the 3 30 meeting where
I’m gonna talk to someone for 45 minutes
about you know tactics and things like
that is like like no no in this meeting
in this hour I can I can change this
person in this company’s very direction
in which they’re going to go and I don’t
know if you ever intended it for me to
take it quite that far but that was
something where it’s like you know I
don’t have to be fearful because i know
that i’m trying to do good things here I
think to to really uh be yourself is
scary you know to really bring it like
if you’re going out and doing a sales
presentation you know there’s there’s a
standard safe way to do it that they
would expect and there’s nothing wrong
with its the no nobody got fired for
buying IBM it’s that mentality but for
you to really win it and for you to have
an impact then you have to be mark
Draeger and you have to be comfortable
with them rejecting marc dreier but they
don’t like mark Draeger in hoping that
some people do love mark JK and
everything that he’s all about and so
that takes a lot of fear that fear of
being rejected that fear of not being
accepted to get through and I’m with you
and and I’ve just gotten more like the
more you do it it’s like any muscle the
more you exercise it the stronger it
gets the less you care I will give my
blunt opinions to a lot of brands that
want to work with me and some of them
can’t handle it and some of them don’t
agree with me and like okay continue to
be crappy go for it I don’t care right
and i know i’m not going to work with
you right if you like laying out the
terms and the people who like it who can
handle the feedback and criticism and
like the vibe you’re going to get along
with those people a lot better you’re
going to be able to have that impact
that you want a lot more but it’s in
every you know people are so
want to say fake but reserved or timid
and afraid to be themselves in most
interactions that holds them back from a
truly happy and meaningful life you know
we’ve taken this you’re going to eat
mark we’re going wait deep mentioning
about stuff but Rowland and I were
working on an RFP like so we got an RFP
project a request for proposal where we
knew we were going into a competitive
blind pitch session where a company put
out to a bunch of companies hey we have
this need let us know how you would
handle it was super super loose now
usually they’ll give rules like we want
to see this woman they didn’t do any of
that stuff so we’re like so we sat down
we’re developing creative concepts were
analyzing the framework where we’re
sitting down to write this RFP and it
was gonna be like 40 pages and I was
like who wants to read 40 pages and it
even in the written word I feel like you
can’t capture in in all areas the nuance
and the passion and and and and you
can’t speak as quickly to all of the
little different points that you can if
I was pitching alive and I was like oh
man if I was able to go to Montreal or
whatever if I was able to pitch us live
I know you would kill it and then we had
this like kind of lightbulb moment we’re
like what they didn’t say we had to
write it out so we develop PowerPoint
slides we developed all of the the
reference points that we wanted to do i
sat down here in the podcast area and I
presented in audio and then I handed it
to Lee and the team and they put
together 40 minute video presentation
that we sent to them and we said here’s
our peers are here’s our submission
right we wanted to save you having to
read 40 pages here’s our presentation
you either like it or don’t like it this
is us and like we are like it’s not that
I didn’t believe is the right thing to
do but it’s it’s it’s risky right like
you’re like you know you’re taking a
risk no one is going to respond to an
RFP with a live video presentation right
nothing was in writing we did like we
just we just went in with our intentions
and our passion and what we want to do
for them and we didn’t we didn’t spend
time going the like well our company
structure is this and this is not like
we didn’t do any of the RFP stuff we
just said this is what you need to do
this is why we would do it for you and
this is what we want to do and we ended
up winning it
and and so someone was like oh we should
really case study this is like what we
should just do what feel like like we
just need to do what puts us first what
like not not our intentions but but if
we don’t if we’re not gonna win playing
the game we need to change the rules of
the game because they don’t even know
what they’re asking for we need to just
break through the rules and give it to
them I don’t see you as a big risk
because if there if it was a company
that said this is the stupidest thing
I’ve ever seen in my life who gives us a
video submission these guys are
ridiculous if you want the traditional
way to pitch them probably you wouldn’t
have won anyway and even if you did they
be the worst client to work with ever
because they don’t share the same values
as you and so by being creative being
original being you guys you’re going to
attract clients who appreciate and
understand that and are attracted to
that and the worst thing the riskiest
thing you do is be boring is be like
everybody else because then it just
compete on price and you attract
terrible clients but it might not be a
real risk but there’s distill that
perceived risk right there’s still that
like that’s why I’m saying about like
changing the rules like you like
rationally we’ll sit down and go like we
know we’re not gonna win there’s no
reason to go with us but if we make them
if we step outside will they penalize us
for being too bold will they you know
hold it against a lot because when you
think about it the system has really
created us to to think you had to do
things one way this is the right way and
no when I was younger I to think that
odd to learn to do the right way and as
I’m getting all these like this there’s
no such thing as a Broadway as long as
I’m not hurting anyone to do anything
bad but it feels right I’m being a being
honest about it and that’s my way and so
people will like it and that’s what I
add to that to whatever and bring it to
you know I conference Emmitt ography
when I was sorry when I was younger
people question my decisions because
that’s not what someone would do or this
guy so does it that’s what this way that
would be oh yeah guess I up ah
we’re not just a bit more weird all of
us I swear I know Harley yeah hey guys
are all in a month we have rules with
holy cow this is lying the video guys no
my butt is my police everyone um and it
was where I was saying some people would
say you do this way and that would be
like nervous
like you’re right I did it wrong I
screwed up but then after realized like
no undo it the way that makes sense to
me in the interpreter that way now he
need to offer something new unique to
what I’m doing if I’m not gonna do it
away Johnny or Sally’s gonna do and then
what am i doing it like Johnny Sally do
it and that’s something that a lot of
people you don’t realize mark you asked
you get penalized for being bold and yes
some companies will penalize you for
being bold great if you are a bold kind
of person you don’t want that client if
you have a bold client and you are
boring then you’re not going to win that
deal and so like it all worked out for
you on this one video submission great
you got the deal awesome right or
listing the week we were bold and we
didn’t win it that’s gonna happen to ya
yeah you you probably don’t want those
clients anyway don’t worry I come back
they’ll come back no they don’t know
what they don’t know we got a very
lovely apology from the person so
they’ll be back hopefully do you have
any question about 70 people watching or
asking questions no do we want to throw
it open do we want to throw it open to
ask any questions of anyone sure uh dat
is asking what kind of headphone is that
it looks badass but not mine so which
one every time are these ones I’m
guessing behringer HP x200 s these were
the cheapest headphones you could buy on
Amazon I think the only 35 or 40 bucks
so you know what when you’re when you
want to jump into something to your
point you said earlier don’t spend a lot
of money like this is a this may look
impressive but but as Roland
continuously points out to me this is
the cheapest equipment and the
microphones fall down all the time so
just go cheap that’s my advice only if
you tinker with them only if you touch
them yeah in any way is the move your
head don’t touch don’t touch them and
I’ll move your head and then you’re good
yeah jose wants to know how many months
pregnant is she three weeks away from
you do date yeah wow yeah yeah it’s
really tomorrow Leah she’s having her
second boy yeah
yeah I feel like 12 months pregnant at
the list plane is asking Evan as a
dancer will you take the risk of dancing
in purple on a prince song tomorrow for
international dance day Oh probably will
if Mark joins me in a purple dance and
what wonderful dance 10 you’re gonna
watch seriously i love these crushed
velvet purple onesies all right i’ll
leave it to mark and his great team to
figure that out I’m up for it if Mark is
I only Foxtrot and that’ll be great
please mark freestyle oh they didn’t
mean ballroom dancing no no no dancing
did dancing well I don’t dance do I look
like I dance Madison the only one like
the type of do I look like the kind of
guy who dances it’ll be the highest rate
of you video on your channel thanks
thanks a lot good righteous okay okay
we’re getting more serious when do you
call yourself an entrepreneur ooh that’s
an interesting question cuz I didn’t
think of myself as an entrepreneur until
a few years ago I’ve been doing is
almost ten years you know I feel like I
feel like it’s more of some people say
well as soon as you start your business
that makes your entrepreneur own it and
that’s fine but I think it has to do
more with a mindset an entrepreneur
mindset and it’s whenever you want to
start calling yourself that whenever you
feel like you’re an entrepreneur in my
opinion but Evan might say something
different he’s smiling like he’s about
to say curveball curveball that’s it no
I don’t get attached to labels man call
yourself whatever you want if you feel
that you are people call themselves
founders or CEOs or you know president
and CEO feels to corporate TV I got
there but another good ones principle in
if you’re in a more creative kind of
area but I go with founder because it
just seems less pretentious honestly
like for me if you have a chance to ask
a question I would ask a more important
question the label does not matter oh
you’re calling out of here I’m calling
out righteous okay yeah why else a
little harsh but lit listen if I had a
chance to ask some way that I relived up
to a question it better be the best
question I’m really concerned
about and it just speaks to like
entrepreneurs focus on the wrong things
the name of your business doesn’t matter
the label that you call yourself doesn’t
matter focus on what you’re going to do
that have an impact and I want to be a
part of conversations those like I’m
breaking my desk those of the
conversation I won’t be a part of I
still have you righteous but hahaha you
know what he just called you out and
talk to you like like a loving brother
would right yeah well I do that to you
all the time mark so yeah how it feels
yeah that each other cry ah Melanie is
there a routine to reduce feeder to
embrace fear routine to reduce fear to
embrace fear routine yeah I mean the
first step is to be aware of it right
and and it’s one of those it’s one of
those light bulb moments or you know
like my mom used to say like someone’s
gonna slap you know like slapping a
two-by-four upside side of your head
like like it’s one of those moments
where you’re suddenly so aware you’re so
painfully aware whether it’s the way you
speak its whether it’s your actions
whether it’s some way you react with
other people or interact there are these
certain life things where your weight
suddenly it becomes so clear to you what
the issue is and and and when that
happened to me it was pointed out and
pointed out and I just didn’t but one
day I was like oh my goodness you know
like like the truth is that I am afraid
of this I’m afraid of this change I’m
afraid of taking risk I’m afraid of of
lack of control for me like i love
control i love what i can know and i can
scope and i can plan for and I was
fearful of the unknown of the lack of
control so first just being aware of it
because then what you can do is you can
kind of call yourself on it you can say
you know what this is i’m just being I’m
just you know I have all these other
safeguards I have all these other people
I’ve friends I can call on I have all
these other resources I can leverage if
things go sideways I can apologize to
the client I can say I’m sorry it went
wrong like like there’s all these things
you can do to save yourself and so so
there’s knowing that and it’s being
aware of it and then the next thing is
you just push through like like you just
say oh I’m being I’m being fearful you
know I’m afraid I’m afraid to book a
meeting with a client for a big thing
because it’s a big pitch so I just email
decline to go hey when you free next
week and all since it’s out of my hands
it’s out in the ether it’s like they go
Oh Tuesday and you go
okay great tuesday i’ll be there and
then you like crap in your driving there
tuesday near like oh what all swear
and mark holy cow you guys agree we
don’t really bleep all of us the potty
mouth fans and media team holy cow weeks
tam-tam when let’s be swear i’ll believe
but but anyway so you booked it you just
booked the meeting you know i was on
this big panel yesterday with so we I
was on this panel that I sponsor which I
had no business being on so I was there
with with the the head of the heart and
stroke foundation the head of Princess
Margaret Hospital who’s a which is a big
Cancer Center the CMO of or the
president of canadian tire jumpstart
association sun life financial and bell
are big telecommunications company the
head of their philanthropic division and
then me like like I was this was
probably the most nervous and fearful i
was and i even said to the moderator was
like listen don’t don’t throw questions
me like these people are are amazing
these people are brilliant and they’re
talking about strategy at a level that i
can’t even speak to i don’t think i’m
gonna any values to just just just so
don’t don’t throw anything to me I will
sit up there very pleasantly very
quietly and kind of not along and it’s
gonna be great why because these people
somebody from a maggot mark right now
holy cow dude that’s insane hold on hold
on I just woman but we’ll go into it
what happened to I try to go into every
conversation like I’m gonna make a huge
impact here Evan heaven let me finish
let me finish this was me going into it
but but I couldn’t back out right I had
to I had to be there I had a spot so
what did i do I was fearful i sat down I
was fearful I looked to the person in my
left and my right and I went this is
happening i’m sitting in front of 70
people i’m sitting with these amazing
people now am I gonna sit here and say
nothing because fears holding me back or
am I just gonna go through with it
because what’s the worst thing that’s
gonna happen right people are forgiving
people are are nice i was in a friendly
room they weren’t the like the mean
press who are trying to tear me down and
you know what i said my i said my few
things and people and i got a bit more
confidence i was i was making points and
people on the panel or nodding along as
they go they agree with me great and and
so I went through and by the end I was
like I was like shadowboxing I was like
I was like so pumped to even be a part
of it it turned out to be one of our
light
greatest opportunities for marketing
point of view the head of the head of
one of the big charities gave me her
card said all we need to get together
and talk suddenly now I’m at their level
which I mean that’s very nice of them
but but it was only because because for
me to deal with my fear I book the
meeting and I’m like I got no choice
it’s booked I go out and I sit down in
the chair and I start talking I go huh
I’m doing this now you know it’s like
you just put yourself in the situation
where you can’t back out and that’s how
I get through it we’re a little over the
stop time so I’ll just answer quickly I
agree awareness is the first step to
usually it’s the awareness after like
it’s aa should have done that or I said
no because I was afraid like you can
really catch it in the moment it’s it’s
it’s awareness afterwards to isn’t
catching it in the moment like oh I’m
this is my usual response this is me
being me again holding myself back and
then 3 is actually pushing through that
fear like okay I recognize I’m doing
this right now I’m holding myself back
right now I’m not going to do the things
I always do every time and I get upset
at myself at I’m going to do something
different I’m gonna go for it but if
we’re over I gotta run uh-huh people who
okay so if they want to learn more about
us they can certainly reach us some
twitter at phantom media they can check
us out online fanta mediacom or facebook
or anything like that or this podcast is
called the not-so corporate podcast you
can find us on youtube as well fanta
media I need to thank you for our
podcast if I can quickly no Evan thanks
so much for joining us I really
appreciate your time to you and all your
fans on YouTube and everything thanks so
much for what you do for us and for all
of us really anytime and happy to
awesome bye guys cool thanks guys so I
all right walk everybody another YouTube
hang out super excited to be here I’ve
got a friend of the channel and kind of
mini celebrity on the channel gets a ton
of positive feedback and comments Marc
Dreier from phantom media I also runs
the not-so corporate podcast and he
wants to interview me about risk I said
hey let’s turn into another video mark
always brings a ton of value to the
channel so mark and his team from France
and media are there on the other side
and they’re gonna interview me and let’s
get talking about risk so welcome aboard
guys and let’s do it hello hello so for
everyone in Evans channel my name is
Mark Trager i’m the founder of phantom
media i got over here on our podcast
podcast regular role in h of area hello
hello everyone and over there extremely
pregnant is Leah are all extremely
extraordinarily pregnant yeah so
tomorrow is her last day with us before
she goes on that leaf so we managed to
sneak this in like the right suitor a
wire special episode with Roland always
he is microphone and glasses just saying
perfect hiding it was like he’s got this
mystique about him that you will not
anyway it’s good night you see the
visual medium no used to the idea hey no
one would have to see any of this stuff
and we can edit like crazy but anyway
listen Evan thanks so much for joining
us on our podcast I really appreciate
you making the time available and for
everyone who’s listening on on the not
succour podcast evan is also live Google
hanging out with us so we got Evan and
his whole crew is all audiences whole
believe nation welcome all that’s right
man i love it haha so i wanted to bring
you on to talk about risk because you
know we’ve known each other for for
close to a decade and you’ve been
someone in my life as an entrepreneur
who’s really pushed me to to take things
to the next level to change things i’m
not sure how much roland and Leah are
gonna jump in on this conversation
because I me know I’m gonna be honest
with you you were on with us in May 4
episode 5 where we talked about one word
and since then anytime I mention you
guys every time I mention you they make
fun of me they make fun of me for
bringing you up every single episode
every single week that’s not the usual
impact I have
isn’t gonna be honest is that he’ll not
feeling the love she’s like I have a fur
I’ve this friend and we’re like is it
evident it’s always of it so could just
say Evan Evan I i I’m a friend ever
surprised yeah we’ve been friends for a
long time yeah she just say Zevon any
way to get to the point about risk
though and to get the topic of it as you
know we’ve had a lot of change in our
business over the last six months to a
year and about a month ago I made a
major business change where I decided to
restructure part of the business and so
I actually sat down and thought to
myself if I gotta make this big move if
I gotta do something that that is
something that I’m not emotionally
comfortable with I have no experience
with in business I don’t know what’s
ahead of me like I know that I think
it’s a smart move but but gosh it’s so
much more comfortable to just to just
stay the way I’m going stay the course
I’m going it’s more comfortable it seems
less risky and so I started doing a lot
of research on just how someone decides
like like how we perceive risk how we
associate risk profiles how we as people
try to stay within our comfort zone and
so I wanted to talk this out on the on
the podcast and and and i thought well
who is someone who I know has taken what
I think to be the biggest risks in their
businesses well over the years I mean
when when we first met you were running
a publishing type company where you had
a blog and a website that would help
entrepreneurs and help connect people
with articles and then a few years ago
you were like I’m shutting it down and
I’m completely going a different
direction and rebuilding who I am and
I’m like wow that was like a huge risk
but to you you never seem to slow you
down and hold you back so in your own
life and the advice you give and the
people you talk to I just want to spend
a bit of time trying to break this myth
because I’m out on the other side now
I’m only six weeks out of making a big
big big change but I feel like a little
bit more comfortable with risk now that
I understand kind of the mechanics of it
all that said give you are you
comfortable sharing that like the big
changes you’ve taken in your life and
and how you like emotionally and kind of
rationally become comfortable with these
huge risks it’s interesting because I
don’t actually see them as huge risks ah
maybe that’s just me executing instead
of what
cider see I think that the the biggest
risk that I ever took that really was
like the stomach the the knots in my
stomach an like I don’t know if I should
do this or not was when I was in
University and I had the opportunity to
join my first company and startup
company and it wasn’t making a lot of
money and I had opportunities to work at
the banking job that I thought I always
wanted you know my high school yearbook
said I was going to be a VP at a bank in
10 years and I had that dream job kind
of lined up for me in eighteen hundred
thousand starting salary and travel
around the world and the only fluent in
New York and put me up in the Waldorf
Astoria for the first interview and kind
of really pushing me hard core to
recruit me for the job that I thought I
always wanted and then they had this
opportunity to join this startup company
that was in scientific software and
science was my worst subject and nothing
both software and something just drew me
to this opportunity but it was not the
smart the smart thing to do yo
quotations it was by far the riskier
thing to do at least in my head at the
time and what helped me through that was
just understanding that I didn’t want to
live with regret and I think that
thought process helps me whenever
there’s something that’s kind of risky
ahead of me I look to my life you know
90 years old looking back and would I
regret not doing this thing and if it’s
yes and I have to do it and that that
makes that doesn’t make the fear go away
just makes the fear a lot lower I
because there’s this new pain the pain
of missing out is greater than the pain
of the fear of doing it and so that was
the biggest thing where all my friends
thought I should go take the job and I
just I was really struggling in
questioning myself and then when I
started that company I wasn’t successful
I was making three hundred dollars a
month and I was too ashamed and
embarrassed to tell my friends that that
I wasn’t doing well and they asked me
how you doing so yeah i think is a great
landing new deals like I’m the one
supposed to be live in the entrepreneur
lifestyle meanwhile I was really
struggling and I thought I made a huge
take and I’ve never felt so worthless in
my life than when I first started my
business and I turned down those jobs uh
I love emotional thinking back to that
thank you Mark appreciate that uh no one
you’re the one who went there I just
back to the hard days you the conduit
the conduit hundred of pain with thanks
yeah rollin rollin thing so degrees the
team agrees anyway not a mark is a great
guy and if I said that my channel
freaked out on me because they love you
so much so I gotta be careful um yeah I
think ever since then I you know and it
did end up working out so I mean I had a
happy story coming out of it but ever
since then I’ve always used when I
wanted to do something and I was afraid
of it it’s thinking am I going to regret
this like if I don’t take my shot if I
don’t try right now am I going to regret
this and if it’s yes and I have to go
out and do it and so a lot of the
expansion’s I guess that you’ve seen as
you’ve known me in the past decade those
are just me being curious about things I
run tons of differents all the time tons
and most of them don’t go anywhere most
of them never get off the ground either
because they weren’t good ideas nobody
cared about them or i scratch the itch
and that’s it you know I don’t want to
spend the next 10 years of my life doing
this you know I tried it cool I’m done
and I’m moving on to something else and
the ones that I’ve stuck with like my
youtube channel moving from being a
publishing house to going all in on
YouTube just came from me starting on
YouTube and trying on youtube and you
young mark was instrumental me getting
started and being part of my first
videos it’s and so I’ve just constantly
evolved my business around things that
are being curious about and I think that
the bigger mistake that entrepreneurs
make and I get people in general but on
tours of my audience you get comfortable
and when you first start in something
you’re learning and you’re growing in
and you’re developing yourself and then
you hit
wall where you stop learning and me
because you’re interested in anymore and
you just evolved as a human being and if
your if your career your business
doesn’t evolve with you you’ll get
increasingly frustrated and that’s why
most people hate the jobs that they go
to like ninety percent of people wake up
and drive to a job that they hate every
single day and that is insanely risky to
me like not being able to follow
something that you are passionate about
is the greatest risk of all in my mind
we’re betting on yourself to do
something amazing I see as being far
less risky yeah but in business are
things you can control the things you
can’t control there are there are market
condition changes and you know you could
have your whole sales related on you
know crazy this think about your
entirely generation process being being
reliant on google and then Google
rewriting their algorithm and you losing
sixty percent your business like what
happened to us three years ago and and
so you know there are all these things
that happen and sometimes you can make
just little tweaks little pivots little
changes to stay up with them and I don’t
think anyone would consider those risky
because you’re just you’re just hungry
you’re feisty or scrappy you just trying
to stay alive and then I guess where we
were you know over the last few months
and and what I’ve recently worked
through are these big proactive you know
let’s say that you want to leave your
job to start a new company that is a big
life that’s not that’s not the natural
progression it’s not you saying well i’m
gonna start slow i’m going to start part
time I’m going to prove I’m gonna test
it’s gonna work and then I’m gonna go
out there like when I started my company
I quit my job I quit my job and my
daughter was three months old and my
wife was at home with her with no other
source of income and I went this is
working or not working uh and so people
were like wow that’s really risky I was
like was it I mean I I guess it I guess
it was but there are these big choices
we have to make proactively that you
have to make to either be protective of
what you have or to take the next step
for the next leap and I think we’re
fearful of the risk of the unknown how
do you how do you deal with that just
start smaller start a smaller yeah and
you start smaller you have a big run but
I’m start
you know but it’s not you don’t stay
small you have a big dream but this is
your dream I want to be up here and I’m
down here and this is some huge scary
thing I have to jump up the cliff I’m
never going to do it and those are the
people who never start a company who are
always too fearful and who stay on the
corporate track and and those are the
guys who live with regret for the rest
of their lives where you could get to
hear right that’s a little that’s easier
and then you get to hear and you get to
here and you climb your way up I’m not a
fan and there’s different schools of
thoughts but I’m not a fan of the guys
who say burn burn the bridges quit your
job and go all in on your business and
it’s the only way to make it work out I
think most people who do that end up
burning through their savings in three
months and end up going back and getting
the job I think the better way to do it
is start a business on the side start
small moonlight work at a job where
you’re going to learn the skills to make
you a better entrepreneur work for
somebody who has you know the ideal
company that you want to build in three
years who has ten employees or less and
is somebody who really look up to and
learn from them and be a sponge and get
paid to make mistakes and get paid to
make contacts and get paid then they’re
saying how your industry works and start
your business on the side or if you’re
already in a business you want to do
something now start that thing on the
side like you have lots of hours after
office hours clothes to start pursuing
the things that you’re really passionate
about and then if you can turn that into
a full time income not like living
luxury not buying Ferraris or anything
but pain internet bills and then the
food bills into it’s more important than
food it’s woot data and where you live
then then you can quit and go all in on
your business so starting small doesn’t
mean you stay small you start small you
build it up see if you get tracked to
see if you like it like a lot of people
start it and then they hate it and then
you’ve burned your bridges like see if
you actually like doing this thing or
not right how do you actually know it’s
like you look at a girl and you think oh
she’s going to be my perfect wife well
how do you know until you start dating
so you know you start getting to know
her better ready can look great on paper
be great in your mind but until you
actually start doing it you don’t know
if you’re going to fall in love with it
or not so don’t make it out to be this
big huge risk just start small and test
to see if it’s for you I don’t like that
i haven’t groomed my business that way i
quit my job and i started my company
income and then five months later I had
almost no money left and I went this is
it this is it I gotta make it work and
then I figured out how to make it work
and then three years later recession hit
two years later and I burned it through
all my cash and I went should I fold in
no I’m gonna give it one more kick of
the can and I took a big risk and took a
loan and hired a sales person and then I
built that up and i took risk and I
hired up staff and then you know
recently we’re shifting the business a
bit and and we’re proactively making
changes like every step I go with what I
do is I look forward and I say okay if
this is where the markets going in three
years or five years and it’s expensive
to be ahead of the curve but it’s worse
to be behind it if this is what’s
happening is this what the clients are
saying if this is where the markets
going if these are the conditions that
are changing I have no choice but to
change so I might as well change now and
get comfortable with it and get ahead of
it so I don’t even feel like I have
control over the changes I make I feel
like I have to do it but it’s still
risky it’s still scary it’s still all
those things but I didn’t I didn’t I
don’t know maybe I should have done it
the way you said we still started small
we still started really really small
everything has to start small and you
got a mature and get better and get
stronger will have you but i think i’ve
just made bigger swings than that I
guess I don’t know you talk about you
told me not to hot you know you told me
not to take on the loan not to hide
their sales person not to do all of
those other things many many years ago
and I was like and i’ll go ahead and do
it anyway and it worked out like it
worked out for you which is great but we
were I remember that conversation in my
office i was saying don’t don’t hire the
sales guy because I was concerned that
you would blow through the money not see
results and end up having to go back and
get a job where if and it happens to a
lot of entrepreneurs like they take out
a loan and then their thing doesn’t work
out and then for the rest of their lives
are paying back this third mortgage on
their house because they wanted to start
a t-shirt business and they needed to
buy 10,000 units of this t-shirt to get
the price breaks they wanted and they
sold for you
9996 t-shirts sitting in your garage
that’s a lot of businesses and I and it
like it kills me to see it and a lot of
people don’t have the strength of
courage and then start up and do it
again like you got screwed over the
first time you took your big bet you
lost it takes a lot of guts to not be
forever scarred by that and because you
have that everything loved ones with you
though to write like you know if I
wanted to make a big change my wife
would kind of be like listen I let you
make a big change ten years ago like
like I don’t know if you get another
credit to to take another swing at this
with something else so I think you also
have your social your loved ones your
other people who you know that not
necessarily the little man but but you
know you kind of cashed in your goodwill
chips on the first swing and maybe they
won’t support you on the second no but
they had to be there for the long run
they have to be there this is do they
think they should I mean I think I mean
the way I deal in the way it is been my
relationship we’re like which is like we
were there for each other we whatever
happens we bounce off of each other
ideas we talk but at the other day is
the two of us force of the world and
that’s it a business puts an insane
amount of stress on a relationship money
is one of the biggest reasons why people
break up and if you are the only
bleeding money and you can’t sustain
your lifestyle something I can’t work
out it just puts a lot of stress and
that can push a lot of couples over the
edge and so if you found that person
that you can get through everything
worth that’s awesome um a lot of people
have great relationships but they just
can’t sustain it through it and and and
if they’ve gone through it once to
Mark’s point maybe they don’t want to go
through it again you know so and now you
have more people to support make a five
people you’re supporting right who me
yeah oh and a cat and a cat the ways if
I yeah my cat has like kidney issues
apparently there’s no recession might be
five people well there’s my wife and my
father survived an addition to your wife
I want something I don’t know yeah no no
for kids for kids our secret child Oh
for kids thank you very much but I’ll
run this by this is this not a question
this is just something that that I’ve
been thinking about my
read about to which helped comfort me in
this time of big change in big risk and
that was that a lot of us when we have
to make a change we go okay so so let’s
say let’s say we need to hire someone
new right we need to hire someone in we
go we go okay I need to hire this new
person oh gosh what could go wrong if I
hire this new person if I heard this
person what’s the worst-case scenario
what are and then you think about all
the things that can go wrong and then
maybe the slight chance we’ll go right
and you associate a risk profile that
you say I’m comfortable with this risk
or I’m not comfortable with this risk
and and then and then we go on our merry
way we make decision but but what I
learned and and why I’ve been a little
bit more proactive recently is what we
don’t do is associate risk profiles with
not changing we don’t go hey you know
things are going great right now wait
what is the risk associated with not
keeping up with not rd with not hiring
with not changing with not staying on
top of it and and I never did it before
I never didn’t up until six weeks ago
where I really sat down and said okay
ice can see all the risks associated
with change but what are the risks
associated with not changing with
staying still and and when I started to
look at in that way I went as
uncomfortable and as emotionally against
this decision I am I like I have to
because because in my business a
creative service draven business in an
extremely competitive market the risk of
not changing is huge it’s it’s really
huge and I never I’m almost a decade
into this and I had never considered it
I don’t have a question for you what are
your thoughts on that though uh it’s
interesting I am NOT the numbers guy I
don’t make decisions based on numbers I
don’t really make a lot of decisions
based on where the industry is going or
what the trends are for me it’s if I’m
excited about something i am going to
will it into existence and i will find a
way to make it happen and it’s always
worked out for me i think a lot of
people look at you know ink magazine
will put out the hundred hottest
startups just create this summer and you
know I could try some of them but it’s
not going to work for me because I’m not
passionate about those things where I
think the greater risk if you’re talking
about the theme
risk is if I start to lose passion for
something if I start to lose excitement
for something if i’m not creative any
more about the thing i’m working on then
i need to get rid of it i need to either
it’s either been built up to the point
where i can hire a team this one with my
publishing company i didn’t get rid of
it i just brought a team on to manage it
and run it and then i went off to do
something else or if it’s not at that
point yet then you kill it like if you
cannot sustain somebody coming on and
being a part of it and affording their
salary i knew making some money off of
it then you move on move on to something
else I think that’s I think that’s a
great decision making kind of framework
if you’re thinking about your own
day-to-day in your own operations in
your own role but when you have a larger
company if you have 10 or 15 or 20 or 30
staff and you have different levels of
hierarchy or whatever in your control of
a larger I mean not a huge organization
but a larger kind of entrepreneurial
organization you have to you have to
like the ship is a little bit harder to
move than when it’s you and two other
people are you yourself and you’re
trying to side like what you’re
passionate about each day I think the
key thing there is is constantly see a
lot of people do this like oh we’re
doing this okay we’re in our box grater
in a box it’s working okay the box isn’t
working it anymore it’s not working as
much and it starts getting worse worse
worse meanwhile you’ve done zero
innovation and changing in what you’re
doing and then it forces you to become
this big new thing and take this big
painful leap because you’ve invested so
much in old Corp and the team and
everything else has been a part of it
we’re really what your business should
be is a constant evolution constantly
trying new things so you don’t build up
decades of baggage underneath you that
you now painfully have to shed so it’s
always trying something new right you
should your team should be used to
trying new things you should bring
people on and and test their positions
tried put in them in something new they
should be evolving as you evolve your
company so it doesn’t become this huge
big shift because you notice Oh prop I’m
and doing the wrong thing for too long
questions guys see normally we get to
cut all this stuff out when we when we
look around the table and go who has a
question for Evan no I was writing
something I was writing in something
down side note okay
and so you know on this on this risk
side do you think that people so I get
following your passion I listen I i I’m
a big believer in taking what you say
and then Reese pinning it as my own
stuff I mean it’s been fast like it
makes me sound this is why this is why I
talk about you on every podcast because
i usually am crediting you actually but
not so Evan podcast this is really
almost Evan Potter yes yes yes yes we’ve
already established that I’ve said this
friends you know the roof I’ll just
mentions name’s Evan Carmichael now
anyway uh you know I i I’ve totally you
know drunk the kool-aid in terms of you
know don’t spend the time working on
your weaknesses lean into your passions
lean into your strengths why would you
work to overcome those things and all
that stuff and that’s why it was such a
tricky then mark that was amazing are
you sure you drank the kool-aid could
you really think it was sounds like it
is it there was gin in the kool-aid I
think you were trying just to say that
impress your friends are you like a pic
gallery I liked it Paul Kelly picking on
mark this is great lesson they weren’t
they weren’t doing this is pure glass
what they weren’t on with us it was just
I was hard enough not don’t have you
have you evolved the show have you taken
some new risks and try new things to
make it better we are easy rehab I’m not
saying let’s say i think i’m risk averse
but when i look at what other people do
what other people put up with when i
hear that they’re not happy with their
job when you know i have i have
arguments with people at parties or I’m
like how can you go to work and not let
love what you do how can you be on a
sunday night how can you see yourself I
gotta go to work tomorrow I don’t I
don’t want to hear that I say that to
the staff it’s like it’s like if
something’s keep making you say I don’t
I gotta go to work two more on a sunday
night tell me what that is if I can fix
it I want to fix I want monday mornings
to be something where you’re like
excited to talk over this have you other
stuff I have never heard you say that on
one on one maybe not with you because
you’ve been on mat leave lot Alana and I
were capturing this special moment
together guys but but this is this is
what I want I want people who want to
come into work and I want it to be a
great place of passion all that stuff
and it’s fine you’ve been on that leave
a lot Leah I wish ur we want to say that
life
for all of our non-canadian listeners
and viewers we get a year of Matt leave
up here so leah was on Matt Lee for a
year and then came back and how long
have you been back for the eight nine
eight months is she’s going on that leaf
or another year so so risk risk with
having to re staff people who are
producers of podcasts and stuff but
anyway so in your business though you
know again I you mentioned I think you
kind of glossed over if I can call you
if I can call you back to the time where
you where you know you were running the
publishing business you were running
that it was a major source of income for
you your I mean you poured yourself into
it like you’re pouring yourself into
YouTube when you’re writing your book
and speaking everything you do like as
for anyone who’s watching is obsessive
as evan is in like making things happen
at salsa at the salsa place or anything
else like he has always been this way
but you you you literally put that to
bed you were like you’re like one day
you’re like nah we’re not doing that I’m
now going all-in over here and and then
within a few weeks or a month it was
like tada the new you you didn’t see any
risk in that uh you didn t know man I
sure there’s no fear in this there was
no you know I I’m confident that if I
get behind something I can turn it into
something and even when it doesn’t get
turned into something I can put blinders
on and just go for the next thing I
don’t know I don’t know man it might be
just blind optimism as an entrepreneur
or just supreme confidence in myself but
when I’ve decided that I’m gonna do
something I just go out and do it until
I don’t want to do it anymore and I
gonna do something else okay so what we
were talking about this in the opening
of the podcast sir your number is a
billion entrepreneurs or a hundred
million I couldn’t a billion yes billion
entrepreneurs yeah yes that is huge
every one of the garage door guys have
you hash Liza is that is that is that
like individual like individual 1
billion individual people are like or
have you broken that down into like
contacts or impressions or something
like that here’s the thing i’m not so
attached to the outcome I’m never
attached to the outcome I’m attached to
the process and what it makes me do is
think about are the activities that I’m
spending my time
congruent with me having a major impact
on the world so it means that I say no
to a lot of things right like a lot of
people want to do an interview right for
maybe someone to anything for their blog
the other blog isn’t that big do I want
to spend the time interviewing some of
these I’m not gonna reach a lot of
people so let’s turn it into a YouTube
hanging out right and so i can send more
messages to my audience i can introduce
that person to my audience and you know
like doing the book if the book is not a
huge book then it’s a failure for me
right i will not be happy with it i
don’t i don’t want to do small projects
i want to do the things that will have a
major impact on this planet that’s what
inspires me and so I don’t care about
hitting the billion as much it’s not
like oh I picked the billing ok now I
need a new goal what’s next what does
hundred billion write the entire
population it is the it’s the process I
think people get too addicted to making
the million dollars right it’s the
process it’s the game that is
interesting that drives me much more
than the result of the okra so then how
do you keep score because I know you’re
competitive um I have smaller goals I
mean so I look at my youtube channel I
wanted to be the number one person imma
agency I have it I have an aging in New
York there was another guy who was ahead
of me on youtube I said I’m gonna beat
that guy and I beat that guy haha I now
so I mean I have the most popular
youtube channel for entrepreneurs we’ve
300,000 subscribers and 32 something
million views on the channel and any
other kind of entrepreneur focus channel
nobody’s nobody’s ahead of me some are a
little close but I’m growing faster than
they are so now it’s okay what’s next
next I want to hit a million subscribers
and so those are like those are nice
goals like they’re motivated okay what
do I need to do to get two million
subscribers how do I keep growing the
channel we know how do i work on how to
improve myself but you need to you need
to understand that it’s not just the
numbers game because to do the things
that get two million subscribers I’ll
often hold myself back I’ll hold my
channel back as an example I have the
life with Evan series on my channel
it’s a personal series as every week
it’s me going to Disney World with with
friends and Mike and you know my my son
when I post like with Evan videos it I
lose subscribers it doesn’t gain
anything I lose subscribers but I do it
because it builds a closer connection
for the people who do watch between me
and them the in special series that I
started that I start every morning you
know every day you start with an
interesting video when I go off on
adding comments on it I was losing some
subscribers and we talked about this in
person you and I mark but the
interesting series wasn’t doing as well
as I thought it would I was losing some
subscribers on some of my in special
series and that was a shock to me
because it’s supposed to be something I
would drive a lot of attention and
awareness and so those clips are you see
a clip from Steve Jobs talking about
something and then I comment on it and
it could have been easy and I tested it
just to remove myself and just show the
clip and if I was just chasing the
million subscribers just chasing that
goal then that would have worked but you
lose the soul that wasn’t interesting
for me I wanted to work on myself until
the challenge became okay I need to get
myself to the point where somebody watch
a Steve Jobs video and then they saw me
they would not tuned out when I came on
that’s a huge insane maybe not possible
challenge the one that I’m excited by
but it’s completely against hitting the
million subscribers at least in the
short term if I cut myself out I would
get there faster so it’s not just about
hitting the numbers i think if you just
get sucked into hitting the numbers and
lose the soul of your business then that
ends up being the long term most
riskiest thing that you can do so i have
i’m gonna switch the direction towards
fears in a second before i do i have to
say i watched yesterday evening Your
Madrid a library keynote okay watch the
whole thing the last time I saw you
speak in public it was to a much smaller
crowd and you didn’t want to stand up
there you had a piece of paper with
someone
bio and you just kind of read it in like
kind of a nervous shy way many many
years ago I couldn’t I couldn’t believe
I couldn’t believe that I was watching
you up there on that video because you
were you’re amazing so is that just
because you’ve just worked at it is it
like like you were like I’ve known you
for a long time I was like wow like I
was genuinely I was impressed with with
your your content in your keynote and
your passion and your stage delivery and
every day I was like I didn’t know the
side of you I’m pissed cuz i hate that
video I feel like I under under
delivered on that video I feel like with
the time and effort practice i
under-delivered yeah yeah and for me I
don’t take a lot of especially overseas
stuff because it takes away a lot of
time away from me doing what I’m doing
here that’s a week that’s a week out of
my life to go to do one speech to you
know that was a group of librarians and
if I did not move people in there then
that would be an insane waste of my time
I don’t care about yeah sure i got paid
you know i wasn’t i got paid to be there
my hotel and fight everything was paid
for but i’m not motivated by money and
motivated by impact and if i didn’t have
an insane impact there then it was a
failure and it was ok but but i could
have been watching that back like man I
thought I was better I felt better on
stage but it wasn’t good enough and so
yeah I’ve come a long way yes great like
I love yes I’m not hating on myself it
was pretty good people loved it
afterwards we’re talking to me I’m glad
that you enjoyed it the audience enjoyed
it but it’s not to wear I know I can be
and that pisses me off and it comes from
practice like I’ve done three thousand
videos I’ve done tons of interviews I
care less about what people think I’m
more confident in myself I’ve done it
over and over and over and over again
and each time I do it I get better so
you know I appreciate the warm
sentiments and it’s a pretty good video
but I’m pissed because I know what to do
way better and that fuels need to want
to do better the next time what you say
is a video company the video was kind of
so-so in mediocre but your delivery was
fair the content anyway so switching
gears a bit to fears i think that the
reason you know obviously fear
it’s a and controls a lot of us in terms
of what we do and don’t do and why we
would move forward or wouldn’t I think
risk naturally I mean it’s fear that
makes us think that risk is risky versus
not risky because as much as you might
want to rationalize things to yourself
or use numbers or use logic at the end
of the day you know you’re going to
follow your heart and if you’re fearful
to take a step or do something then that
will control you what advice do you give
for us business owners for us creatives
for for us entrepreneurs in terms of
just being able to be aware of fear
manage fear push through it without
being a foolish yeah it’s a great
question i think i think the people say
don’t be afraid i don’t know what
they’re talking about I think fear is
normal I think I think it’s more feel
the fear and do it anyway I think the
biggest restriction on your human
potential is your limiting personal
beliefs which are driven a lot in fear
like I don’t deserve this Who am I to be
able to do this and most of it is so
subconscious that you just keep doing
the same thing over and over and over
and over again you keep saying no to the
right potential opportunities because
those fears and those looming person
will use to keep coming back you keep
playing the same record and you don’t
have the awareness like you hit the nail
on the head by saying that keyword the
first step is understanding that you’re
holding yourself back in this certain
area for me it was I have a I have a
need to feel like I hate wasting
people’s time I ever need to feel
valuable I want to feel like when I
leave a meeting with somebody that I’ve
helped them right from my need to have
impact until the negative side is i
might hold myself back and I used to
hold myself back a lot from meeting
people because I was worried that I
wouldn’t be able to provide them with
value and so I always end up over
delivering that’s the positive side but
it’s out of a fear that I won’t be
helpful enough to people and I would get
calls to you know go to speak at events
and and I would say yes and then the day
before I would secretly hope that they
would cancel on me
because I was afraid that I wouldn’t be
able to give them value even though i
know that i always give value and people
always leave even like meetings with
with entrepreneurs who are just SAT
there startup stage and I know I can
help them I would feel like I hope they
cancel or I’m feel a little sick maybe I
should cancel on them and because I was
afraid that I wouldn’t be able to help
them but I always did you know I always
help them I’ve never had that I don’t
know where it came from because I oh
I’ve never had a situation I’ve been in
a meeting with somebody or presentation
and didn’t get value from it but it’s
just pushing through that it’s
recognizing that hey I don’t go take
that meeting I don’t go do that
presentation that i’m never going to get
to where I want to be so it’s feeling
the fear understand you need
acknowledging it not letting it just be
in my subconscious that keeps holding me
back and in doing it anyway you know
push through the fear and do it anyway
you said something once to me imissu in
passing and it stuck with me and I try
to do this before every meeting before
every call now because because I you
know I mean fear controls a lot of my
decisions as well and I’ve written up on
my board you know he’s very buddy mark
such as you everybody everybody I had no
kin that’s fair i just i just know that
i am ab the people i talk to I am
abnormally fearful like like I’m like oh
we can’t do then he’s like I just I lack
as much as I might seem bold I do I just
know that I’m aware of it now which is
great so I’ve written on my board you
know are you acting out of fear so I can
constantly myself it would be the point
where before I would jump on a sales
call with someone I I too would be like
not not value driven but just well what
if they ask something of me I don’t have
an answer for and say I’ve been doing
this a long time like I I should trust
the system I should trust that the
people would give me a chance to speak
or to answer things but you said
something to me once which I really held
on to and I’ve even expanded that to
everything now you said it right before
like a video or right before a hangout
or right before a presentation you know
you have the opportunity as the speaker
as the participator to change people’s
lives to make an impact do something big
I take that now to every single
interaction like before I walk into a
meeting with someone or all i’m doing is
scoping a project i go you know what if
i do this meeting well if we
have if my intentions are pure and we do
the best thing for the client I have the
chance to change this company’s a
direction I have the chance to change
this person’s career path just in this
meeting I can change their lives and I
and I’ve taken that and it’s given me
the freedom to be able to come in like
really swinging hard because because I’m
not just going to the 3 30 meeting where
I’m gonna talk to someone for 45 minutes
about you know tactics and things like
that is like like no no in this meeting
in this hour I can I can change this
person in this company’s very direction
in which they’re going to go and I don’t
know if you ever intended it for me to
take it quite that far but that was
something where it’s like you know I
don’t have to be fearful because i know
that i’m trying to do good things here I
think to to really uh be yourself is
scary you know to really bring it like
if you’re going out and doing a sales
presentation you know there’s there’s a
standard safe way to do it that they
would expect and there’s nothing wrong
with its the no nobody got fired for
buying IBM it’s that mentality but for
you to really win it and for you to have
an impact then you have to be mark
Draeger and you have to be comfortable
with them rejecting marc dreier but they
don’t like mark Draeger in hoping that
some people do love mark JK and
everything that he’s all about and so
that takes a lot of fear that fear of
being rejected that fear of not being
accepted to get through and I’m with you
and and I’ve just gotten more like the
more you do it it’s like any muscle the
more you exercise it the stronger it
gets the less you care I will give my
blunt opinions to a lot of brands that
want to work with me and some of them
can’t handle it and some of them don’t
agree with me and like okay continue to
be crappy go for it I don’t care right
and i know i’m not going to work with
you right if you like laying out the
terms and the people who like it who can
handle the feedback and criticism and
like the vibe you’re going to get along
with those people a lot better you’re
going to be able to have that impact
that you want a lot more but it’s in
every you know people are so
want to say fake but reserved or timid
and afraid to be themselves in most
interactions that holds them back from a
truly happy and meaningful life you know
we’ve taken this you’re going to eat
mark we’re going wait deep mentioning
about stuff but Rowland and I were
working on an RFP like so we got an RFP
project a request for proposal where we
knew we were going into a competitive
blind pitch session where a company put
out to a bunch of companies hey we have
this need let us know how you would
handle it was super super loose now
usually they’ll give rules like we want
to see this woman they didn’t do any of
that stuff so we’re like so we sat down
we’re developing creative concepts were
analyzing the framework where we’re
sitting down to write this RFP and it
was gonna be like 40 pages and I was
like who wants to read 40 pages and it
even in the written word I feel like you
can’t capture in in all areas the nuance
and the passion and and and and you
can’t speak as quickly to all of the
little different points that you can if
I was pitching alive and I was like oh
man if I was able to go to Montreal or
whatever if I was able to pitch us live
I know you would kill it and then we had
this like kind of lightbulb moment we’re
like what they didn’t say we had to
write it out so we develop PowerPoint
slides we developed all of the the
reference points that we wanted to do i
sat down here in the podcast area and I
presented in audio and then I handed it
to Lee and the team and they put
together 40 minute video presentation
that we sent to them and we said here’s
our peers are here’s our submission
right we wanted to save you having to
read 40 pages here’s our presentation
you either like it or don’t like it this
is us and like we are like it’s not that
I didn’t believe is the right thing to
do but it’s it’s it’s risky right like
you’re like you know you’re taking a
risk no one is going to respond to an
RFP with a live video presentation right
nothing was in writing we did like we
just we just went in with our intentions
and our passion and what we want to do
for them and we didn’t we didn’t spend
time going the like well our company
structure is this and this is not like
we didn’t do any of the RFP stuff we
just said this is what you need to do
this is why we would do it for you and
this is what we want to do and we ended
up winning it
and and so someone was like oh we should
really case study this is like what we
should just do what feel like like we
just need to do what puts us first what
like not not our intentions but but if
we don’t if we’re not gonna win playing
the game we need to change the rules of
the game because they don’t even know
what they’re asking for we need to just
break through the rules and give it to
them I don’t see you as a big risk
because if there if it was a company
that said this is the stupidest thing
I’ve ever seen in my life who gives us a
video submission these guys are
ridiculous if you want the traditional
way to pitch them probably you wouldn’t
have won anyway and even if you did they
be the worst client to work with ever
because they don’t share the same values
as you and so by being creative being
original being you guys you’re going to
attract clients who appreciate and
understand that and are attracted to
that and the worst thing the riskiest
thing you do is be boring is be like
everybody else because then it just
compete on price and you attract
terrible clients but it might not be a
real risk but there’s distill that
perceived risk right there’s still that
like that’s why I’m saying about like
changing the rules like you like
rationally we’ll sit down and go like we
know we’re not gonna win there’s no
reason to go with us but if we make them
if we step outside will they penalize us
for being too bold will they you know
hold it against a lot because when you
think about it the system has really
created us to to think you had to do
things one way this is the right way and
no when I was younger I to think that
odd to learn to do the right way and as
I’m getting all these like this there’s
no such thing as a Broadway as long as
I’m not hurting anyone to do anything
bad but it feels right I’m being a being
honest about it and that’s my way and so
people will like it and that’s what I
add to that to whatever and bring it to
you know I conference Emmitt ography
when I was sorry when I was younger
people question my decisions because
that’s not what someone would do or this
guy so does it that’s what this way that
would be oh yeah guess I up ah
we’re not just a bit more weird all of
us I swear I know Harley yeah hey guys
are all in a month we have rules with
holy cow this is lying the video guys no
my butt is my police everyone um and it
was where I was saying some people would
say you do this way and that would be
like nervous
like you’re right I did it wrong I
screwed up but then after realized like
no undo it the way that makes sense to
me in the interpreter that way now he
need to offer something new unique to
what I’m doing if I’m not gonna do it
away Johnny or Sally’s gonna do and then
what am i doing it like Johnny Sally do
it and that’s something that a lot of
people you don’t realize mark you asked
you get penalized for being bold and yes
some companies will penalize you for
being bold great if you are a bold kind
of person you don’t want that client if
you have a bold client and you are
boring then you’re not going to win that
deal and so like it all worked out for
you on this one video submission great
you got the deal awesome right or
listing the week we were bold and we
didn’t win it that’s gonna happen to ya
yeah you you probably don’t want those
clients anyway don’t worry I come back
they’ll come back no they don’t know
what they don’t know we got a very
lovely apology from the person so
they’ll be back hopefully do you have
any question about 70 people watching or
asking questions no do we want to throw
it open do we want to throw it open to
ask any questions of anyone sure uh dat
is asking what kind of headphone is that
it looks badass but not mine so which
one every time are these ones I’m
guessing behringer HP x200 s these were
the cheapest headphones you could buy on
Amazon I think the only 35 or 40 bucks
so you know what when you’re when you
want to jump into something to your
point you said earlier don’t spend a lot
of money like this is a this may look
impressive but but as Roland
continuously points out to me this is
the cheapest equipment and the
microphones fall down all the time so
just go cheap that’s my advice only if
you tinker with them only if you touch
them yeah in any way is the move your
head don’t touch don’t touch them and
I’ll move your head and then you’re good
yeah jose wants to know how many months
pregnant is she three weeks away from
you do date yeah wow yeah yeah it’s
really tomorrow Leah she’s having her
second boy yeah
yeah I feel like 12 months pregnant at
the list plane is asking Evan as a
dancer will you take the risk of dancing
in purple on a prince song tomorrow for
international dance day Oh probably will
if Mark joins me in a purple dance and
what wonderful dance 10 you’re gonna
watch seriously i love these crushed
velvet purple onesies all right i’ll
leave it to mark and his great team to
figure that out I’m up for it if Mark is
I only Foxtrot and that’ll be great
please mark freestyle oh they didn’t
mean ballroom dancing no no no dancing
did dancing well I don’t dance do I look
like I dance Madison the only one like
the type of do I look like the kind of
guy who dances it’ll be the highest rate
of you video on your channel thanks
thanks a lot good righteous okay okay
we’re getting more serious when do you
call yourself an entrepreneur ooh that’s
an interesting question cuz I didn’t
think of myself as an entrepreneur until
a few years ago I’ve been doing is
almost ten years you know I feel like I
feel like it’s more of some people say
well as soon as you start your business
that makes your entrepreneur own it and
that’s fine but I think it has to do
more with a mindset an entrepreneur
mindset and it’s whenever you want to
start calling yourself that whenever you
feel like you’re an entrepreneur in my
opinion but Evan might say something
different he’s smiling like he’s about
to say curveball curveball that’s it no
I don’t get attached to labels man call
yourself whatever you want if you feel
that you are people call themselves
founders or CEOs or you know president
and CEO feels to corporate TV I got
there but another good ones principle in
if you’re in a more creative kind of
area but I go with founder because it
just seems less pretentious honestly
like for me if you have a chance to ask
a question I would ask a more important
question the label does not matter oh
you’re calling out of here I’m calling
out righteous okay yeah why else a
little harsh but lit listen if I had a
chance to ask some way that I relived up
to a question it better be the best
question I’m really concerned
about and it just speaks to like
entrepreneurs focus on the wrong things
the name of your business doesn’t matter
the label that you call yourself doesn’t
matter focus on what you’re going to do
that have an impact and I want to be a
part of conversations those like I’m
breaking my desk those of the
conversation I won’t be a part of I
still have you righteous but hahaha you
know what he just called you out and
talk to you like like a loving brother
would right yeah well I do that to you
all the time mark so yeah how it feels
yeah that each other cry ah Melanie is
there a routine to reduce feeder to
embrace fear routine to reduce fear to
embrace fear routine yeah I mean the
first step is to be aware of it right
and and it’s one of those it’s one of
those light bulb moments or you know
like my mom used to say like someone’s
gonna slap you know like slapping a
two-by-four upside side of your head
like like it’s one of those moments
where you’re suddenly so aware you’re so
painfully aware whether it’s the way you
speak its whether it’s your actions
whether it’s some way you react with
other people or interact there are these
certain life things where your weight
suddenly it becomes so clear to you what
the issue is and and and when that
happened to me it was pointed out and
pointed out and I just didn’t but one
day I was like oh my goodness you know
like like the truth is that I am afraid
of this I’m afraid of this change I’m
afraid of taking risk I’m afraid of of
lack of control for me like i love
control i love what i can know and i can
scope and i can plan for and I was
fearful of the unknown of the lack of
control so first just being aware of it
because then what you can do is you can
kind of call yourself on it you can say
you know what this is i’m just being I’m
just you know I have all these other
safeguards I have all these other people
I’ve friends I can call on I have all
these other resources I can leverage if
things go sideways I can apologize to
the client I can say I’m sorry it went
wrong like like there’s all these things
you can do to save yourself and so so
there’s knowing that and it’s being
aware of it and then the next thing is
you just push through like like you just
say oh I’m being I’m being fearful you
know I’m afraid I’m afraid to book a
meeting with a client for a big thing
because it’s a big pitch so I just email
decline to go hey when you free next
week and all since it’s out of my hands
it’s out in the ether it’s like they go
Oh Tuesday and you go
okay great tuesday i’ll be there and
then you like crap in your driving there
tuesday near like oh what all swear
and mark holy cow you guys agree we
don’t really bleep all of us the potty
mouth fans and media team holy cow weeks
tam-tam when let’s be swear i’ll believe
but but anyway so you booked it you just
booked the meeting you know i was on
this big panel yesterday with so we I
was on this panel that I sponsor which I
had no business being on so I was there
with with the the head of the heart and
stroke foundation the head of Princess
Margaret Hospital who’s a which is a big
Cancer Center the CMO of or the
president of canadian tire jumpstart
association sun life financial and bell
are big telecommunications company the
head of their philanthropic division and
then me like like I was this was
probably the most nervous and fearful i
was and i even said to the moderator was
like listen don’t don’t throw questions
me like these people are are amazing
these people are brilliant and they’re
talking about strategy at a level that i
can’t even speak to i don’t think i’m
gonna any values to just just just so
don’t don’t throw anything to me I will
sit up there very pleasantly very
quietly and kind of not along and it’s
gonna be great why because these people
somebody from a maggot mark right now
holy cow dude that’s insane hold on hold
on I just woman but we’ll go into it
what happened to I try to go into every
conversation like I’m gonna make a huge
impact here Evan heaven let me finish
let me finish this was me going into it
but but I couldn’t back out right I had
to I had to be there I had a spot so
what did i do I was fearful i sat down I
was fearful I looked to the person in my
left and my right and I went this is
happening i’m sitting in front of 70
people i’m sitting with these amazing
people now am I gonna sit here and say
nothing because fears holding me back or
am I just gonna go through with it
because what’s the worst thing that’s
gonna happen right people are forgiving
people are are nice i was in a friendly
room they weren’t the like the mean
press who are trying to tear me down and
you know what i said my i said my few
things and people and i got a bit more
confidence i was i was making points and
people on the panel or nodding along as
they go they agree with me great and and
so I went through and by the end I was
like I was like shadowboxing I was like
I was like so pumped to even be a part
of it it turned out to be one of our
light
greatest opportunities for marketing
point of view the head of the head of
one of the big charities gave me her
card said all we need to get together
and talk suddenly now I’m at their level
which I mean that’s very nice of them
but but it was only because because for
me to deal with my fear I book the
meeting and I’m like I got no choice
it’s booked I go out and I sit down in
the chair and I start talking I go huh
I’m doing this now you know it’s like
you just put yourself in the situation
where you can’t back out and that’s how
I get through it we’re a little over the
stop time so I’ll just answer quickly I
agree awareness is the first step to
usually it’s the awareness after like
it’s aa should have done that or I said
no because I was afraid like you can
really catch it in the moment it’s it’s
it’s awareness afterwards to isn’t
catching it in the moment like oh I’m
this is my usual response this is me
being me again holding myself back and
then 3 is actually pushing through that
fear like okay I recognize I’m doing
this right now I’m holding myself back
right now I’m not going to do the things
I always do every time and I get upset
at myself at I’m going to do something
different I’m gonna go for it but if
we’re over I gotta run uh-huh people who
okay so if they want to learn more about
us they can certainly reach us some
twitter at phantom media they can check
us out online fanta mediacom or facebook
or anything like that or this podcast is
called the not-so corporate podcast you
can find us on youtube as well fanta
media I need to thank you for our
podcast if I can quickly no Evan thanks
so much for joining us I really
appreciate your time to you and all your
fans on YouTube and everything thanks so
much for what you do for us and for all
of us really anytime and happy to
awesome bye guys cool thanks guys so I
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