hello everyone marco montemagno here
super summit and what can I say today
I’m so excited I’m really happy and I’ll
tell you why in a few minutes to have
our guest today Ryan holiday Ryan how
are you I’m doing well so Ryan you have
to know that I usually hate to present
my guests that that’s the point because
I think that you know if someone is here
and works you know in the tech industry
or in the communication ward and doesn’t
know who you are
well probably there is something wrong
you know so I try to avoid you know
presentations of the guests because I
think you know just Google Ryan holiday
that is great but in your case I have to
say I always never even buy the book
before to do the interview with my
guests because I always think well I
would like to to hear from the guests
and if is very interesting I’ll buy the
book later you know but in your case I
did my job you know so I bought the book
to be honest right here is the buy one
get one half price but I didn’t profit
from it and I started to read it is
phenomenal really I really like it so
today I would like to talk with you Ryan
holiday the obstacle is the way the
ancient art of turning adversity to
advantage when did he come out May first
all right my first show is absolutely
fresh and I know it’s going great and
yeah I would like to go with you it’ll
be deeper into the few concepts of the
book and then also go on other concepts
related to communication
to the game right one one question that
I have is the following
you wrote a previous book trust me I’m
lying and it was great as I told you of
the chat I was one of the first buyer I
think you sold it on AB Sumer probably
yes something like that and it was very
interesting it was like a good deal and
the thing that really caught my
attention was the cover that sort of
sinks in CD cover was an amazing cover
isn’t it I don’t know how you did it but
it was really sexy anyway like it’s
actually funny the publisher hated
cover idea at first it was a huge fight
oh yeah I was it was a big like it
because it’s not like what business
books are supposed to look like it’s
definitely not what like a marketing
book is supposed to be like but I wanted
it to be really different and
provocative and sort of I wanted to show
that it was it was serious but also like
a bit playful and that there was like
something dark to it and so I I’m I was
I you know I had a designer who did it
she did an amazing job but it was a very
tough settle with the publisher believe
it or not amazing you you know I I want
to talk about your new book but just to
tell you I was so impressed by the
graphics that Amit what I did I I
remember you also did a video a video
clip and I said oh I contacted the guys
I think simply field not to do that but
good guys and I wrote to them and I say
guys I want something like that and they
say sorry but you’re not right right a
holiday so how can we do something like
that
I say yeah you’re right so I gave up but
it was really impressive anyway the
other point that and the reason why I
tell you this is when you came out with
the second book the obstacle is is the
way I thought mmm
I don’t know if I gonna buy this one you
know maybe Ryan started to go more
philosophical and so I’m not really for
the positive thinking you know mood so I
was very very skeptical in beginning and
I realized that is something totally
different and now actually while I’m
reading it is really totally different
so I would like to start with this
concept when you came out with this
first of all why why do you change so
much from marketing to let’s say a
philosophical boot which is not
philosophical and we’ll talk about in a
second sure yeah so it’s interesting I
think um well first I’ve been writing
you know online since 2005 2006 and
mostly what I would write about was
philosophy so for my fans they actually
thought the first book was a surprise
and they thought they were like oh we
thought you would write a book about
philosophy but instead I wrote this
marketing book so I knew the marketing
book would introduce me to a wider
audience that I wouldn’t have otherwise
been able to do if I’d done it the other
way around
um so that was part of it like it’s not
as big a surprise as people think but
you know one of my mentors is Robert
Greene he wrote the book the 48 laws of
power and one of the laws of power is
this idea of reinventing yourself but if
you do the same thing over and over
again people start to expect certain
things they start to be less interested
in it the last thing I wanted to do was
pump out another like a book that was
more of the same so I wanted to do
something that was different that made
people think and that made people have
the exact reaction that you had which is
what is this about this is very weird
check it out and then be surprised that
they actually liked it I think that
reaction is very important when you’re
marketing stuff right and the cover is
is completely different now so I think I
think your publisher say no more strange
colors blue rot same designer I actually
used the same designer it’s just a
matter of designing the right cover for
the right book yeah absolutely no I
think it’s right also because this is
related with stories is Manson
philosopher so now you know the funny
thing Ryan is is the following I I saw
in Europe I would say in in the last few
years
coming up the fact that when you have a
problem you don’t go to the psychiatric
but you go to a philosopher so there is
this new trend that I found very
fascinating I thought wow I I II when I
started to read your book this thing
this thing started to resonate with me
because I thought F philosophers solve
the problem which is really concrete is
nothing about theory isn’t it yeah I
know it’s interesting it’s like a new
trend but that’s also the oldest trend
like the rule of philosophers for most
of ancient history was to help people
with their problems right like the idea
of philosophy is to help you live a good
happy life that’s the whole point and so
what’s happened is that as philosophy
became more and more abstract it started
to feel like it had nothing to do with
with what you know you and I do which is
live in the real world and have
businesses and do work and so philosophy
and life sort of went in opposite
directions but I think you’re starting
to
you know the resurgence of Stoicism
which is a practical philosophy has made
people realize that you know there were
wise people who lived thousands of years
ago who went through the same problems
that need it and they figured out and
they articulated a set of solutions to
that problem and we can avail ourselves
to that wisdom if we want right yeah
yeah and it’s absolutely concrete so
just to start with this I would like to
say absolutely guys the obstacle is the
way it’s not about philosophy but
entrepreneurs like me like you and
business people that can be really
really useful
by the way Ryan while you were speaking
obviously I was noticing of the book
behind you and came in my mind I did
interview with Seth Godin and I said
said but did you read all the books
behind you very similar situation and
say no I wrote the book all the book
behind me you know and so I was little
be afraid to ask you the same question
but did you read and write all the book
behind you well two things that’s not
actually all the books if you go this
way but no so obviously I’ve read most
of them and they’re all books that are
important to me but Nassim Nicholas
Taleb who’s I think a bit of a modern
philosopher his thing is is this idea is
you shouldn’t just have books that
you’ve read on your shelf you should
have the books that you haven’t read and
that you know that you haven’t read so
they symbolize the the knowledge that
you have you don’t yet possess so a lot
of these books are books that I want to
read that I haven’t had time for that I
eventually will get to I love it also
because I was trying to listen a few
interviews that you did or writing with
you recently what would you your thought
and what I like from your approach is
the fact that you keep coming back to
the point that it’s not only about you
know doing one thing only focusing on
one thing being a Superman yuck about
one thing but if you do multiple
multiple things probably there is a
meaning there okay can you elaborate on
that I think is very interesting because
a lot of business people they just focus
on one thing and they say
you just do only these under percent of
my time and I don’t think is the best
way to do it what do you think yeah so I
find that when you have if you to do one
thing and be really good at it is hard
right you have to spend a lot of time on
it to do two things to do to be good at
two things is very difficult right but
if you want to do a lot of things they
can all feed into each other in a way
that makes oh it’s like like I read a
lot so I’m reading a book about one
thing that’s designed to help me with
you know my marketing clients and I
learned something that then I can apply
to my own books or when I’m researching
for my books I might learn something
that helps with my clients so for me
it’s about sort of creating this sphere
where that has a lot of different inputs
that help me with everything that I’m
doing and I find that they feed into
each other and they help each other
obviously one way to sort of master
something is to focus all of your energy
on that thing and to live and breathe it
um but that doesn’t make sense for
everyone and that doesn’t that’s not the
right fit for everyone’s personality so
I’m someone who has a lot of energy I
have a lot of different interests and
I’ve tried to find a way that they all
can like I’m saying feed into each other
rather than trying to sort of jam you
know a square peg in a round hole or
whatever good going straight to the
obstacle is the way and by the way that
these are all concepts that are coming
out from from the book there is one
phrase that really caught my attention
and is during crisis period back
companies clothes good companies survive
great companies improve or something
like that
the CEOs of Intel all right which is
really unbelievable he’s really like
that you really see the difference
between bad good and great companies all
right what are your suggestions on this
topic I mean because if I think about
countries like Italy where I was born
Spain Greece crisis is still so strong
over there and people just see a huge
obstacle in front of their eyes whatever
they do if they running a business or
for their personal life so
do you really see it happening again
again again or is just a you know a
positive way of thinking sure yeah so
look if you’re fragile any sort of
adversity is going to break you if
you’re strong you should be able to
survive a decent amount of adversity but
if you’re if you are robust or what
Tillich calls anti fragile then you
actually benefit from these negative
circumstances because you learn from
what’s happening right like I quote Rahm
Emanuel who’s an advisor to Obama saying
you never waste a crisis because a
crisis is a chance to do something that
you couldn’t have otherwise done or
maybe maybe you just survived it but
everyone else around you who is weak
they die off because they can’t handle
the difficulties of the situation so
it’s not so much about positive thinking
but it’s about saying okay
this thing happened and it’s a crisis
and it’s negative but how can I respond
to that crisis in a way that puts me in
a better position than I would have
otherwise been in so it’s not about like
sort of looking at the you know the
glass is half-full or putting on
rose-colored glasses or whatever cliche
you want to use it’s about choosing to
respond and make decisions based on this
crisis in a way that moves you forward
okay I think look I I made I tell you
this story but because I think is we’re
talking about a formula here or a
framework I would say yeah I might also
is like an operating system yeah
excellent so yeah an operating system
basically so something that is not only
you know just an idea but something that
you can apply in your own life in your
business and I have to say that I am I
was impressed I I met Tony Robby’s you
know Tony Robbins the author and speaker
and you know the business coach now
everything and for an interview a few
months ago and I in beginning I thought
hmm maybe is you know a positive
thinking guy so again I was as you see a
little bit skeptic in beginning but then
talking with this guy I thought this man
he has got a framework in place so to go
from a point A to a point B
he has got a system he has got a formula
it’s not something you know that he go
in front of this out of the mirror and
try to smile every day and think you
know so that that’s an important thing
about about your book that I’m finding
at least and that there is this effort
to create a framework and get useful
tips from old and new examples and you
started with Marcus Aurelius which is
also my name so I thank you for that
thanks for choosing me by the way Riya
why did you start with Marcus Aurelius
so I was introduced to stoicism I was 19
years old I hated this book it was the
meditations of Marcus Aurelius and as it
was this book that sort of shaped me to
my core because it it was a totally
different way of looking at the world
it’s a different framework than the one
I’ve grown up with or the one that I’ve
been taught right and there was
specifically a single quote and then
that quote is what I based this book on
and he says you know the impediment to
action advances action what stands in
the way becomes the way and so it’s when
we talk about a framework or a formula
what are you saying it’s not just saying
like okay this is how the world is what
are you saying is like look stuff is
gonna happen to you
and you don’t control what that is but
you do control how you respond to that
thing and you may as well respond well
the Stoics say that everything is an
opportunity right there is no good or
bad there are just opportunities and you
may as well respond to each one of those
opportunities with the sort of the stoic
virtues you know with creativity with
justice with honor you know with
fairness with generosity with
perseverance you that’s how you should
see the world so stoicism which is you
know the philosophy that that sort of
underpins the book is is complex it has
a lot of different components but I
specifically wanted to talk about this
one component which is how do you
respond to seemingly negative or
disadvantageous events and I think
that’s something that is you know sort
of uniquely connected to how
entrepreneurs that have to think about
the world because it’s like look I have
my own marketing company
I have a number of employees something
terrible could happen tomorrow I could
get fired by a client you know I could
be engaged in some sort of controversy I
could get sick whatever right that that
would all be bad
but I don’t have time to feel sorry for
myself I don’t have I can’t hand it off
to someone else
because it’s my company and I am the one
who is responsible for it right and so I
think that that’s a that’s an attitude
that more and more people would be
beneficial benefited by having and I
wanted to write a book about it yeah
it’s basically a no excuse and no leb
approached and you had also some some
sports related examples I was a
professional all right I know if I tell
you this or I’ll tell you anyway I was a
professional table tennis player when I
was ya really so my job was play table
tennis you know and doing tournaments
around the world I was a mediocre table
tennis players I mean around 215 de
wardes so I was not you know like top
ten players but you know anyway and I
was practicing you know eight nine nine
hours per day eleven months a year you
practice practice practice and you play
a match every weekend and there is no
excuse I mean you just have to go there
and perform at your best doesn’t matter
what happens and so I love these
biographies you know like not all or
Djokovic this kind of people they really
I think you can compare them with
business often because they have
injuries and everything happened
audience is so hard you know and they
still have to win so it’s no excuse and
from what I from what I see you you come
back again to this concept that it’s not
about the facts but it’s about
perception is it right yeah so I I quote
the samurai swordsman Musashi where he
talks about the difference between
observing and perceiving right observing
is objective you’re just seeing the
situation for what it is I’m proceeding
is where you bring things to the table
so so to my analogy it’s like objective
set objective says like I’m down by five
points right perceiving says I’m down by
five points and that means I can’t come
back I’m going to lose because I’m down
five points and so that’s not really a
helpful perception right if you so
basically you app you had the judgment
to that to the fact do the impression
yes you haven’t you got a judgment to an
impression and the stove’s are talking
about how much easier life is when you
stick with first impressions because
first impressions are are they are what
they are perceiving it’s what we bring
to the table it’s our baggage these are
unhelpful thoughts and so what I’m
saying is that what we tend to do is we
take something that happened to us and
then we make it worse with the story
that we tell ourselves I got fired my
life is over I got dumped I’m never
gonna find happiness again right or you
know my boss yelled at me I’m gonna get
fired I’m so angry about it I’m crushed
whatever we add these stories to what
happens to us instead of seeing them
clearly right and and cleanly about what
they truly are
and then getting to work to fix them
right and I was thinking that I divorced
a few years ago okay not to make a
personal it no but you know if you make
a personal example is immediately
resonated with other people connected
and by the way after I want to say hi to
all the people connected and I remember
when I divorced I thought that’s it is
all my life is over my you know I will
never ever find a different situation
and today that I’m so in love with an
amazing woman and and I think gosh I’m
so happy that I divorced you know I
could still be in that situation was the
one of the best they happen in my life
and is incredible you know fact
perception can can be yeah it’s crazy
when we I think every single person when
they look back on their lives they see
things that they thought were terrible
when they happened but in retrospect put
us on the path that we are on today and
we wouldn’t change them if we could like
if you could go back you wouldn’t fix
that
relationship because it would have
prevented you from meeting the person
that you’re with now and having your
children and all these things and so
like we know objectively that failure is
often good for us right we’ve seen with
the passage of time how failure was a
positive and yet every time something
bad starts to happen to us we get all
upset and we get all worried and we’re
we get afraid that things are gonna be
bad but we know that it works out and so
I think that’s an important reminder the
next time you’re in a situation that
feels overwhelming or scary or awful
it’s like look how am I gonna think
about this in five years how am I gonna
think about this in five months
how am I gonna think about this in five
hours and if if you’re if your answer is
well I’m not going to feel as upset
about it well then why subject yourself
to that now right that’s really I think
one of the most important things in life
though I would say right now let me just
say hi to all the people we are live and
I’m just checking where are people
watching now coming from okay because
I’m always curious about the countries
you know some just checking my real-time
analytics and I see people all right
United Kingdom United States Canada
Germany Ireland Australia Belgium Chile
which is going strong to the World Cup
probably are the only people not
watching the football World Cup at all
on certain other countries so guys if
you want to say hi or just a question or
or give us your your feedback here in
the chat I am just monitoring it all
right
you have the book basically organized in
three main areas a great if I’m wrong
perception action and will right is it
the the path and the flow to follow when
you want to transform an obstacle into
the way or or is just you know a way to
organize the book or is the right yeah
it’s necessarily a one to three kind of
process but they are very interrelated
so first because think about it
something happens you have to perceive
like the first part is perception the
next part is action and then the final
part is will obviously perception
precedes action you shouldn’t go around
acting before you’ve thought or perceive
something properly so I mean action is
is obviously earth sorry perception is
obviously the first step and if you
don’t perceive something rightly you
can’t act rightly so first it’s how you
look at it then it’s what you do about a
situation and then finally it’s how do
you respond to the consequences of that
action which is the will section right
so you know you you perceive a situation
properly you make a decision well now
that decision doesn’t work how do you
continue on that’s where the idea of
willpower and inner strength and and
acceptance and and things like that
that’s where those concepts come in so I
think they flow in sort of a continuous
loop rather than it’s like 1 2 3 ok and
and do you think there is a 1 phase
which is more important than the other
or you have to be good in all all 3 well
yeah I think they all matter a great
deal
I think perception is probably the both
the easiest and the most important step
because again if you you can’t look at
something right it really doesn’t matter
what you do about it or how strong you
are right well what about you Ryan I
mean reading your book uh the first
thing that we’re thinking is alright but
how does he react I mean how does the
focus for instance and I think that I
that I heard that to you for instance
when you want to focus you listen a lot
of music and but you listen
hundreds of times the same kind of song
until you are over with that ready and
you change and maybe you are little be
discussed and hope this song that you
were listening to so what are your
suggestion to to find the right focus
because my my feeling is that for many
people probably also watching our
conversation today they logically
understand
at the point but it is very difficult
when something when she happens is
difficult to stop dear it’s okay ah
let’s follow this formula sure so look I
wrote the book and I’m not in the book
for one reason I’m not perfect at these
things either and I’m not saying you
should do what I do I’m saying this is
what we should do and that this is what
I try to do these are the steps that I
try to follow because it’s what really
smart people have written and learned
through history got it though you know
this morning I’m trying to write and I’m
getting I’m having an email crisis and a
bunch of stuff happening I feel the same
way that everyone else feels but I have
to remind myself like calm down you know
this isn’t a big deal this isn’t worth
getting upset about now and then it sort
of Center yourself and then start
tackling these things one by one and
you’ll have them crossed off the list
right so I understand that all of this
is easier said than done because I try
it myself and I go through the same
difficulties as everyone else I think
with stoicism what you realize is it’s
it’s it’s a process it’s something you
work on every day and every day you get
a little bit better at it’s not
something that you read a book and then
magically you’re transformed and you
have you know you have this superpower
and I think anyone that promises you
that is probably lying to you there’s
there is no easy way but there is a
simple straightforward framework for
dealing with the difficulties that we
face as entrepreneurs and also think
that there are a few examples you
talking for instance about what was the
name Harry Ken Carter the basketball
player and the boxer boxer was also a
movie from Denzel Washington
otherwise yeah yeah and and I mean this
guy he went to the prison so the way he
was reframing the situation is
fundamental I think Nelson Mandela so
people who have such a big problems in
their life more than you know failing
with your business okay but I mean these
people they overcome really huge huge
problems well
think about it is like look if someone
like hurricane Carter or Nelson Mandela
can go to prison and leave bet or
Malcolm X can go to prison and leave
better off for what happened crazy
bizarre whatever difficulty you’re going
through you can emerge better off from
as well because your thing is a little
bit less severe than like a triple life
sentence but after you wrote this book
Ryan yeah your clients they come
sometimes to you and say right Ryan
let’s not talk about marketing
let’s do about we have a problem here
you know and you because the kind of you
know consultant also for they’re sure it
is happening right now yeah I mean and
and I see that with my employees I see
with my clients it’s like okay we’re all
stressed out are all worried about this
thing but really why what do we get out
of that what we should be thinking about
is what does this allow us to do what
can we do now that we couldn’t do before
that this is an opportunity to so it’s
like some you know maybe you’ve always
wanted to say this thing or you’ve
always wanted to humanize your brand or
you’ve always wanted to you know tell
someone something that you were really
passionate about
well this crisis or this scandal or
whatever it is it’s a chance to sort of
break through some of those reservations
and speak really honestly and openly to
the public or whatever it happens to be
I try to focus not on the bad stuff
that’s happened or what you can’t do but
what are the opportunities that are
inherent within this situation that we
can take advantage of right because it
really you don’t get anything focusing
on the other part right control what you
can’t control that and focus your energy
where you’re gonna have an ROI not in
the areas that you would rather focus on
but you’re not gonna get anything right
Ryan Seneca was practicing right I I
know he was practicing but by the way I
think he died with chiku ty I don’t know
how you say in English they’re poison he
it was yeah so he took he took poison
and he slit his his wrists right so um
stoicism very was practicing what he was
preaching and I think like one day I’m
ants or something like that he was
trying to be poor so he was trying to to
see exactly what happened first question
is do you try the same or like one day a
month you go you try to report or and
the second question is what’s the best
way you think is to to prevent you know
to start to practice and understand that
the the way to to front and face
obstacles what’s the right way if there
is a way to practice before the obstacle
is arriving so that you are ready when
the match is starting let’s say sure so
Seneca is a really interesting
historical figure right he’s one of the
most powerful political advisors in Rome
he’s one of the most rich and successful
businessmen in Rome and he’s a
successful writer all at the same time
and so to me what I think is so
interesting about stoicism he’s not like
he was just a little lecturer who had
some smart sounding ideas he was really
doing this in real life and his ideas
were tested at the highest of levels
right so I think that’s that’s
fascinating and I think it’s a great
sort of testament to the validity of the
philosophy we’re talking about in the
book but yeah one of the things he would
talk about even though we had this great
wealth he would practice not having it
so he wasn’t afraid to lose it so he
wasn’t afraid to take risks he wasn’t
afraid to challenge people who might be
able to you know take that wealth away
from him so he didn’t spend all his time
trying to preserve his success he could
actually enjoy it and I think that’s
something that you know a lot of us have
trouble do it we we don’t want to think
about the worst-case scenario because it
makes us deeply uncomfortable and the
Stoics aren’t all about negative
visualization not positive is a
visualization but thinking about
worst-case scenarios and then becoming
okay with them so they lose their power
over us okay and and what do you think I
just want to ask a few things more about
well what do you think let’s try to do
give you an example
we definitely have startups watching us
and by the way Amanda say Riley I’m very
spied by your book a great read thank
you so thank you good for you and the
imagine that there is a start-up and I
know III think I launched super summit
is my sixth or seventh startup so I know
what does it mean when you start a new
struggle and you have to try to grow and
you have so many problems to do you know
just to grow your your company and I
think a lot of people are in this
situation at the moment that are
watching us and what you think are where
would you start from I mean to start to
see the situation in a different way to
– you know get get the obstacle upside
down what in your uh your framework I
mean if you should say three things
absolutely focus on these three things
now sure but first off I would focus on
the fact that it’s supposed to be hard
if it was easy to start a company and
anyone could do it
there wouldn’t be any money or reason to
do so right it’s supposed and this is a
process of winnowing out all the people
who are not as strong as you
and then second of all I would focus on
the fact that what you’re doing now the
lessons and decisions that you were
doing are training and practice for what
you are going to need in the future you
are you are like starting a company
front loads the difficulties of a
business right you’re having to decide
what you stand for how you run things
who’s a part of your team what your
business this is all the important part
this is like deciding you’re gonna get
strong and go to the gym
you gotta lift weights and it sucks and
you’re really sore at for it all but you
get into a rhythm and you learn how to
do things and then I think finally you
realize like look there are going to be
challenges but it’s these challenges
that are going to present the
opportunities that my business takes
advantage of right um you know a
competitor starts to step into your
space
now you have to challenge that
competitor and that’s how you’re gonna
defend yourself that’s how you’re gonna
carve out your business a client might
get upset with you they might not want
to work with you anymore this is a
chance for you to figure out what’s
wrong with your business what you need
to improve what you need to change so
what let’s go back to the quote that we
opened the the talk with this idea of
the impediment to action advance is
actual it stands in the way becomes a
way when stuff stands in your way you
just want to remind yourself like look
I’m going to respond to this in a way
that benefits me and my business I’m not
going to be weak I’m not gonna run away
from it I’m not gonna hide I’m not gonna
take it personally I’m gonna see how I
can benefit from this and I’m gonna face
every single situation that way and it
becomes over time a recipe for not just
optimism but for greatness because your
your emerging from each obstacle better
than you were before I love it right now
let me talk a little bit about marketing
because I mean you have such a huge
knowledge and the legend says that 21
years old you became marketing director
of American opera it is okay so which is
I mean obviously amazing but the the
situation today that the company has to
face is out there on one side you have
so many media you know social media
Twitter Facebook everything and on the
other side there is so much noise and
start to be very difficult to promote
yourself so number one I was curious to
know what do you do to promote your own
book because I mean if you’re so good to
promote other stuff I mean Tim Ferriss
books or or for your customers I’m
wondering what you what do you create to
promote your own book that’s something
I’m very curious about yeah look I think
the most important thing that people
miss when they market stuff is they they
don’t they think that marketing is
something distinct from the creative
process as well right so it’s like what
happens if someone goes off and writes a
book and then tries to figure out how to
market it which is a huge mistake
instead you want to think about how can
you make something that’s very easy to
market how can you bake the
interesting conversational provocative
parts into the thing so you know for me
like I wanted to write a book about
philosophy but like we were talking
about earlier most people don’t think
that they need philosophy so I wrote it
more as a book about how to solve
problems in business and in life that
happens to be influenced by philosophy
and then you try to make you try to make
your prop your process you try to narrow
down your focus to be as simple and
straightforward and catchy as possible
right like I could have called this you
know a modern-day introduction to
stoicism but that’s not a very
captivating book title right I wanted to
call I want to call the obstacles the
way and then I actually got it literally
tattooed on my arm because like I was
such a good phrase like it’s about
creating catchy interesting compelling
ways to describe who you are and what
you’re doing and then I think the third
most important part is understanding who
influences people in your space how does
your powers your product going to get
sold and then creating a marketing plan
that takes advantage of that
you know I identified the influencers in
this business space I got them copies
earlier early I just I I designed a book
I knew that they would be interested in
I brought some of them on as partners
like Tim Ferriss actually published the
audiobook of my book which made him a
huge advocate of it in a way that you
wouldn’t have if if it was just some guy
he knew who released a book right um
I think you know what what so many
authors do wrong is not just writing a
book that you know they didn’t think
about how to market it but then they
don’t think about marketing until two
weeks before it comes out yeah dude Seth
Godin was saying that takes three years
to launch a successful book and you know
I don’t know if I’ve been planning it
for three years but I’ve been planning
this release and every facet of it for a
really long time right the the big
question here is sometimes you maybe you
work for a company
I always remember one guy one one day
was a presentation I think was with Gary
Knowles you
presentations and guy and and it was one
guy from the audience that after the
presentation said gar sori ever one
question and was a great presentation
but I have to present shampoo and is not
sexy it’s not good is probably I’m not
you know I don’t even like it so what
could I do and I don’t remember what it
was is uncertain what if you don’t think
shampoo is interesting and you’ll like
it and you don’t know how to talk about
an interesting way
you shouldn’t represent shampoo right I
think that’s the problem is is people if
you’re not passionate about this product
and so it’s two things one if you’re not
passionate about it you should leave if
you don’t think that it’s as good as it
could be to get other people excited
about it then you have to change that so
you know I think it’s really interesting
like a company like Instagram Instagram
started as a different company it was
called bourbon and it wasn’t good and
people didn’t like it and they changed
and they became Instagram that’s a
marketing decision deciding to improve
the product so it is exciting so it’s
not boring and so you actually do like
it that’s that that’s marketing that’s
great marketing and I think a lot of
people are afraid to do that so I don’t
work if I don’t love a book if I don’t
think an author did a great job I don’t
work on it I leave that to somebody else
okay I like this point right and when
you wrote trust me I’m lying you
basically revealed the way that I I
think like big blog the big blogging
platforms how they work of the fact that
any traffic they need to produce tones
of content and so he’s easy to let’s say
influence them with the right tactics
and strategy so and it was something
that maybe in the industry we knew it
about it but you were the first to write
it you know black and white and people
say whoa
you know it really works like that yeah
then I thought probably everything will
change after the book but then I saw you
know upworthy BuzzFeed and they
gigantic machines with super sexy catchy
a be testing titles just collect clicks
and and views and and so on so it’s
still the same or maybe the situation is
even worse but what was appealing about
that yeah look I wrote the book I wanted
to expose sort of how the sausage gets
made so then people can decide how much
sausage they want to eat right and it
turns out people still really like the
sausage I guess or maybe the book hasn’t
the book hasn’t has it you know affected
everyone I think you know we live in an
immediate environment that has a lot of
short-term toxic incentives and that
works the final product that we see as
consumers I don’t know what the solution
is I just knew that I wanted to write
the book to show people like it you know
I was thinking like if one guy so you
reads it and it changes how they they
read the news that’s worth it to me and
whether it changes the system or not I
think is probably out of my hands but I
wanted to I wanted to create that
literacy for people who are interested
in figuring out how it works right
I would like sometimes to give you
questions from the chart but I try to
recap that the most interesting ones I’m
already doing but and sometimes I have
to tell you also you know Merced is fun
salut I don’t know Merced is where are
you from Uruguay looks like if it’s or
why I can’t topi do require people until
there is Italy Uruguay for a football
match so well if I was a great book
great book so you have readers here and
tell me one thing Ryan mmm-hmm
I I recently saw just European I
recently saw uber and a lot of con
control controversy like a lot of
controversy and protests in all Europe
in London big strikes and the effect was
that uber became you know mainstream a
50% increase in their booking crazy
really crazy do you think there is a
strategy there too
you know fire controllers there or is
just you know yeah I think Ober has done
a great job marketing themselves and
present it like what they’ve done a
really good job is presenting themselves
as the underdog who sort of fighting
these fighting these people who are
resistant to change
I mean uber is worth 18 billion dollars
so they’re not like a little guy but
they make themselves they’ve done a good
job of attacking unions and taxi cab
companies that don’t have a lot of
friends and governments that people
aren’t huge fans of and making them seem
like they’re sort of a force for good
and what I think the reason though they
benefit from all the controversy is the
fact that they have a really good
product and if you don’t have a really
good product it doesn’t matter how
controversial you are so it it’s like if
you make something that’s amazing then
you can challenge these people and the
more they talk about you the better it
is for you same would say Airbnb
probably something similar great product
and then they say let’s change the way
right right so to recap your your tape
2014 if I go to Ryan holiday with my
company whatever startup or big
companies and I say look what I really
should focus today is number one build a
great product yeah is there any specific
platform or new way that you find – the
interesting – to market products or are
still the old same rules so build a
great product and vote and find the
right influencers and finger cross look
obviously that’s important but when I
try to think about is like look where is
everyone else like competing and trying
to get attention and then don’t do that
because that’s where everyone else is so
it’s like what is the new platform that
people and I try not to talk about
specifics because it always changes
right but it’s like where where is there
a group of people who you’re gonna have
the greatest ROI with rather than where
are the most amount of people does that
make sense okay
where where where is where your
competitors trying to get all their
customers and I’ll give you a great
example so uber uber is big competitors
lift right it’s another startup now
they’re in all of these cities um
lyft realize that uber was banned in
Austin where I lived and and so lift and
and it was banned because there’s like a
log here well lift was like look we’re
just we’re gonna say screw the law and
we’re gonna exist here anyway we’re
gonna operate in violation of the law
and they did it and they got like a two
or three-week head start on uber and now
lift is huge in Austin because they
attacked uber where uber was weak rather
than rather than trying to make some
huge push in New York City or uber is
much stronger okay so try to find study
or your competitors and try to find
places where that they are not so strong
or do the opposite of what are you doing
basically exactly and look that’s that’s
military strategy as well and I talked
about that an obstacle you don’t attacks
force doesn’t go against force you want
you want to attack where there is
surprise or weakness or vulnerability
that’s where you want to focus your
effort because that’s we’re gonna have
the most ROI I read a Boris Becker book
once biography Becker you know the the
German German tennis player okay and I
was one point but one part where
basically the question was what was your
secret to win and he said the formula
for me is very simple I play my
strongest
stroke against the weakest part of my
opponent yeah it works very well and do
you think do you have any tip for
companies here that maybe they don’t
have big budget because you know if
you’re coca-cola probably you say okay
no Microsoft they say I have 1 billion 3
billion I would do my my marketing
strategy I can do billions of things but
if you are start up again you know you
need to use Ryan holidays approach so
not Orthodox finding different ways any
particular takeaways on this topic yeah
so I wrote a book on growth hacking and
I think growth hacking is something
that’s that’s worth looking at it’s an
e-book it’s like three bucks I would
suggest people check that out it’s
called growth hacker marketing but
basically the way I see it is if you
don’t have a huge budget then you have
to make up for it by being interesting
and taking risks right so the reason
that Microsoft needs a billion dollars
is because their products are really
boring and their ads are really boring
and their marketing is really boring and
you could pay to get it in front of
people because people don’t want to see
it when I work with American Apparel we
make really provocative interesting ads
that people want to see that they really
like and so the less you have the more
the better
what you do has to be I think that’s the
rule of thumb right another question
here is when do you start to talk with
media because what I see often is a
startup create his MVP or his product
and then prepare a good press release
and start to spam with the press release
all the journalists in the universe
TechCrunch if is in the tech industry or
wherever and they try just to get
coverage and that’s it that’s the
strategy basically a lot of you know
pushing with the journalists when is the
right moment to talk with journalists
and how yeah well I think you have to
ask what are you actually trying to get
out of the coverage just being on
TechCrunch doesn’t do anything for you
you have to ask why and what for you
need to be strategic about it and you
have to say okay
if we’re gonna be on TechCrunch one time
do we want it to be today or is it
actually better for it to happen a month
a month from now or six months from now
when we’re actually prepared to take
advantage of it
so discipline is really important when
it comes to doing the media and being
strategic is important as well I think
about it it’s like when are we gonna
have our best most compelling story
about ourselves and timing it that way
and it’s usually not as early as you
think and it
you can’t get customers without media
coverage then I would evaluate what
you’re doing you know what I mean like
if your product can only get people to
sign up for it because TechCrunch wrote
about it there’s probably something
wrong with what you’re doing
all right so and and where do you start
then what’s the first part where would
you start
wrong-o getting media coverage no just
when you want to promote you launch and
you want to promote we’re all right I
it’s like where that where’s your I mean
I think part of the problem is people
think you need huge media outlets when
really you need I mean you have an
audience that watches this show right
chances are you could probably drive
more users that are new signups then you
know someone then the New York Times or
whatever right so it’s about finding the
people who can drive you actual real
customers like you know we talked about
uber uber launched at South by Hoover
got all its customers in San Francisco
and then every year it did great South
by Southwest marketing when people from
all over the world would come to Austin
and use uber for the first time and then
take it back to their cities with them
so it’s about finding out where your
people are and how to get at them that’s
the core that’s the core critical
function of marketing it’s not getting
your name in headlines right Ryan couple
of minutes before D and just curious
about your your next steps what’s coming
next for Ryan holiday the obstacle is
the way okay
coming out right now but I know that you
write like like crazy you know you’re
always writing a lot yeah I mean I’m
always trying to write I try to write
one or two articles a week so that keeps
me busy I have I’m working on my next
book and then I have a marketing company
that I you know I consult with a very
small select number of clients but
they’re they’re big ones that I like a
lot that I believe what they’re doing
and I focus on that very good Ryan thank
you so much thanks for watching to all
the people Ryan holiday D obstacle is
the way and blue or purple cover in UK
white in US so I think I thought was a
different book because I always thought
the
one but in UK guys is let’s say the
purple is not even blue and great book
thank you so much Ryan and see you soon bye really appreciate thank you
super summit and what can I say today
I’m so excited I’m really happy and I’ll
tell you why in a few minutes to have
our guest today Ryan holiday Ryan how
are you I’m doing well so Ryan you have
to know that I usually hate to present
my guests that that’s the point because
I think that you know if someone is here
and works you know in the tech industry
or in the communication ward and doesn’t
know who you are
well probably there is something wrong
you know so I try to avoid you know
presentations of the guests because I
think you know just Google Ryan holiday
that is great but in your case I have to
say I always never even buy the book
before to do the interview with my
guests because I always think well I
would like to to hear from the guests
and if is very interesting I’ll buy the
book later you know but in your case I
did my job you know so I bought the book
to be honest right here is the buy one
get one half price but I didn’t profit
from it and I started to read it is
phenomenal really I really like it so
today I would like to talk with you Ryan
holiday the obstacle is the way the
ancient art of turning adversity to
advantage when did he come out May first
all right my first show is absolutely
fresh and I know it’s going great and
yeah I would like to go with you it’ll
be deeper into the few concepts of the
book and then also go on other concepts
related to communication
to the game right one one question that
I have is the following
you wrote a previous book trust me I’m
lying and it was great as I told you of
the chat I was one of the first buyer I
think you sold it on AB Sumer probably
yes something like that and it was very
interesting it was like a good deal and
the thing that really caught my
attention was the cover that sort of
sinks in CD cover was an amazing cover
isn’t it I don’t know how you did it but
it was really sexy anyway like it’s
actually funny the publisher hated
cover idea at first it was a huge fight
oh yeah I was it was a big like it
because it’s not like what business
books are supposed to look like it’s
definitely not what like a marketing
book is supposed to be like but I wanted
it to be really different and
provocative and sort of I wanted to show
that it was it was serious but also like
a bit playful and that there was like
something dark to it and so I I’m I was
I you know I had a designer who did it
she did an amazing job but it was a very
tough settle with the publisher believe
it or not amazing you you know I I want
to talk about your new book but just to
tell you I was so impressed by the
graphics that Amit what I did I I
remember you also did a video a video
clip and I said oh I contacted the guys
I think simply field not to do that but
good guys and I wrote to them and I say
guys I want something like that and they
say sorry but you’re not right right a
holiday so how can we do something like
that
I say yeah you’re right so I gave up but
it was really impressive anyway the
other point that and the reason why I
tell you this is when you came out with
the second book the obstacle is is the
way I thought mmm
I don’t know if I gonna buy this one you
know maybe Ryan started to go more
philosophical and so I’m not really for
the positive thinking you know mood so I
was very very skeptical in beginning and
I realized that is something totally
different and now actually while I’m
reading it is really totally different
so I would like to start with this
concept when you came out with this
first of all why why do you change so
much from marketing to let’s say a
philosophical boot which is not
philosophical and we’ll talk about in a
second sure yeah so it’s interesting I
think um well first I’ve been writing
you know online since 2005 2006 and
mostly what I would write about was
philosophy so for my fans they actually
thought the first book was a surprise
and they thought they were like oh we
thought you would write a book about
philosophy but instead I wrote this
marketing book so I knew the marketing
book would introduce me to a wider
audience that I wouldn’t have otherwise
been able to do if I’d done it the other
way around
um so that was part of it like it’s not
as big a surprise as people think but
you know one of my mentors is Robert
Greene he wrote the book the 48 laws of
power and one of the laws of power is
this idea of reinventing yourself but if
you do the same thing over and over
again people start to expect certain
things they start to be less interested
in it the last thing I wanted to do was
pump out another like a book that was
more of the same so I wanted to do
something that was different that made
people think and that made people have
the exact reaction that you had which is
what is this about this is very weird
check it out and then be surprised that
they actually liked it I think that
reaction is very important when you’re
marketing stuff right and the cover is
is completely different now so I think I
think your publisher say no more strange
colors blue rot same designer I actually
used the same designer it’s just a
matter of designing the right cover for
the right book yeah absolutely no I
think it’s right also because this is
related with stories is Manson
philosopher so now you know the funny
thing Ryan is is the following I I saw
in Europe I would say in in the last few
years
coming up the fact that when you have a
problem you don’t go to the psychiatric
but you go to a philosopher so there is
this new trend that I found very
fascinating I thought wow I I II when I
started to read your book this thing
this thing started to resonate with me
because I thought F philosophers solve
the problem which is really concrete is
nothing about theory isn’t it yeah I
know it’s interesting it’s like a new
trend but that’s also the oldest trend
like the rule of philosophers for most
of ancient history was to help people
with their problems right like the idea
of philosophy is to help you live a good
happy life that’s the whole point and so
what’s happened is that as philosophy
became more and more abstract it started
to feel like it had nothing to do with
with what you know you and I do which is
live in the real world and have
businesses and do work and so philosophy
and life sort of went in opposite
directions but I think you’re starting
to
you know the resurgence of Stoicism
which is a practical philosophy has made
people realize that you know there were
wise people who lived thousands of years
ago who went through the same problems
that need it and they figured out and
they articulated a set of solutions to
that problem and we can avail ourselves
to that wisdom if we want right yeah
yeah and it’s absolutely concrete so
just to start with this I would like to
say absolutely guys the obstacle is the
way it’s not about philosophy but
entrepreneurs like me like you and
business people that can be really
really useful
by the way Ryan while you were speaking
obviously I was noticing of the book
behind you and came in my mind I did
interview with Seth Godin and I said
said but did you read all the books
behind you very similar situation and
say no I wrote the book all the book
behind me you know and so I was little
be afraid to ask you the same question
but did you read and write all the book
behind you well two things that’s not
actually all the books if you go this
way but no so obviously I’ve read most
of them and they’re all books that are
important to me but Nassim Nicholas
Taleb who’s I think a bit of a modern
philosopher his thing is is this idea is
you shouldn’t just have books that
you’ve read on your shelf you should
have the books that you haven’t read and
that you know that you haven’t read so
they symbolize the the knowledge that
you have you don’t yet possess so a lot
of these books are books that I want to
read that I haven’t had time for that I
eventually will get to I love it also
because I was trying to listen a few
interviews that you did or writing with
you recently what would you your thought
and what I like from your approach is
the fact that you keep coming back to
the point that it’s not only about you
know doing one thing only focusing on
one thing being a Superman yuck about
one thing but if you do multiple
multiple things probably there is a
meaning there okay can you elaborate on
that I think is very interesting because
a lot of business people they just focus
on one thing and they say
you just do only these under percent of
my time and I don’t think is the best
way to do it what do you think yeah so I
find that when you have if you to do one
thing and be really good at it is hard
right you have to spend a lot of time on
it to do two things to do to be good at
two things is very difficult right but
if you want to do a lot of things they
can all feed into each other in a way
that makes oh it’s like like I read a
lot so I’m reading a book about one
thing that’s designed to help me with
you know my marketing clients and I
learned something that then I can apply
to my own books or when I’m researching
for my books I might learn something
that helps with my clients so for me
it’s about sort of creating this sphere
where that has a lot of different inputs
that help me with everything that I’m
doing and I find that they feed into
each other and they help each other
obviously one way to sort of master
something is to focus all of your energy
on that thing and to live and breathe it
um but that doesn’t make sense for
everyone and that doesn’t that’s not the
right fit for everyone’s personality so
I’m someone who has a lot of energy I
have a lot of different interests and
I’ve tried to find a way that they all
can like I’m saying feed into each other
rather than trying to sort of jam you
know a square peg in a round hole or
whatever good going straight to the
obstacle is the way and by the way that
these are all concepts that are coming
out from from the book there is one
phrase that really caught my attention
and is during crisis period back
companies clothes good companies survive
great companies improve or something
like that
the CEOs of Intel all right which is
really unbelievable he’s really like
that you really see the difference
between bad good and great companies all
right what are your suggestions on this
topic I mean because if I think about
countries like Italy where I was born
Spain Greece crisis is still so strong
over there and people just see a huge
obstacle in front of their eyes whatever
they do if they running a business or
for their personal life so
do you really see it happening again
again again or is just a you know a
positive way of thinking sure yeah so
look if you’re fragile any sort of
adversity is going to break you if
you’re strong you should be able to
survive a decent amount of adversity but
if you’re if you are robust or what
Tillich calls anti fragile then you
actually benefit from these negative
circumstances because you learn from
what’s happening right like I quote Rahm
Emanuel who’s an advisor to Obama saying
you never waste a crisis because a
crisis is a chance to do something that
you couldn’t have otherwise done or
maybe maybe you just survived it but
everyone else around you who is weak
they die off because they can’t handle
the difficulties of the situation so
it’s not so much about positive thinking
but it’s about saying okay
this thing happened and it’s a crisis
and it’s negative but how can I respond
to that crisis in a way that puts me in
a better position than I would have
otherwise been in so it’s not about like
sort of looking at the you know the
glass is half-full or putting on
rose-colored glasses or whatever cliche
you want to use it’s about choosing to
respond and make decisions based on this
crisis in a way that moves you forward
okay I think look I I made I tell you
this story but because I think is we’re
talking about a formula here or a
framework I would say yeah I might also
is like an operating system yeah
excellent so yeah an operating system
basically so something that is not only
you know just an idea but something that
you can apply in your own life in your
business and I have to say that I am I
was impressed I I met Tony Robby’s you
know Tony Robbins the author and speaker
and you know the business coach now
everything and for an interview a few
months ago and I in beginning I thought
hmm maybe is you know a positive
thinking guy so again I was as you see a
little bit skeptic in beginning but then
talking with this guy I thought this man
he has got a framework in place so to go
from a point A to a point B
he has got a system he has got a formula
it’s not something you know that he go
in front of this out of the mirror and
try to smile every day and think you
know so that that’s an important thing
about about your book that I’m finding
at least and that there is this effort
to create a framework and get useful
tips from old and new examples and you
started with Marcus Aurelius which is
also my name so I thank you for that
thanks for choosing me by the way Riya
why did you start with Marcus Aurelius
so I was introduced to stoicism I was 19
years old I hated this book it was the
meditations of Marcus Aurelius and as it
was this book that sort of shaped me to
my core because it it was a totally
different way of looking at the world
it’s a different framework than the one
I’ve grown up with or the one that I’ve
been taught right and there was
specifically a single quote and then
that quote is what I based this book on
and he says you know the impediment to
action advances action what stands in
the way becomes the way and so it’s when
we talk about a framework or a formula
what are you saying it’s not just saying
like okay this is how the world is what
are you saying is like look stuff is
gonna happen to you
and you don’t control what that is but
you do control how you respond to that
thing and you may as well respond well
the Stoics say that everything is an
opportunity right there is no good or
bad there are just opportunities and you
may as well respond to each one of those
opportunities with the sort of the stoic
virtues you know with creativity with
justice with honor you know with
fairness with generosity with
perseverance you that’s how you should
see the world so stoicism which is you
know the philosophy that that sort of
underpins the book is is complex it has
a lot of different components but I
specifically wanted to talk about this
one component which is how do you
respond to seemingly negative or
disadvantageous events and I think
that’s something that is you know sort
of uniquely connected to how
entrepreneurs that have to think about
the world because it’s like look I have
my own marketing company
I have a number of employees something
terrible could happen tomorrow I could
get fired by a client you know I could
be engaged in some sort of controversy I
could get sick whatever right that that
would all be bad
but I don’t have time to feel sorry for
myself I don’t have I can’t hand it off
to someone else
because it’s my company and I am the one
who is responsible for it right and so I
think that that’s a that’s an attitude
that more and more people would be
beneficial benefited by having and I
wanted to write a book about it yeah
it’s basically a no excuse and no leb
approached and you had also some some
sports related examples I was a
professional all right I know if I tell
you this or I’ll tell you anyway I was a
professional table tennis player when I
was ya really so my job was play table
tennis you know and doing tournaments
around the world I was a mediocre table
tennis players I mean around 215 de
wardes so I was not you know like top
ten players but you know anyway and I
was practicing you know eight nine nine
hours per day eleven months a year you
practice practice practice and you play
a match every weekend and there is no
excuse I mean you just have to go there
and perform at your best doesn’t matter
what happens and so I love these
biographies you know like not all or
Djokovic this kind of people they really
I think you can compare them with
business often because they have
injuries and everything happened
audience is so hard you know and they
still have to win so it’s no excuse and
from what I from what I see you you come
back again to this concept that it’s not
about the facts but it’s about
perception is it right yeah so I I quote
the samurai swordsman Musashi where he
talks about the difference between
observing and perceiving right observing
is objective you’re just seeing the
situation for what it is I’m proceeding
is where you bring things to the table
so so to my analogy it’s like objective
set objective says like I’m down by five
points right perceiving says I’m down by
five points and that means I can’t come
back I’m going to lose because I’m down
five points and so that’s not really a
helpful perception right if you so
basically you app you had the judgment
to that to the fact do the impression
yes you haven’t you got a judgment to an
impression and the stove’s are talking
about how much easier life is when you
stick with first impressions because
first impressions are are they are what
they are perceiving it’s what we bring
to the table it’s our baggage these are
unhelpful thoughts and so what I’m
saying is that what we tend to do is we
take something that happened to us and
then we make it worse with the story
that we tell ourselves I got fired my
life is over I got dumped I’m never
gonna find happiness again right or you
know my boss yelled at me I’m gonna get
fired I’m so angry about it I’m crushed
whatever we add these stories to what
happens to us instead of seeing them
clearly right and and cleanly about what
they truly are
and then getting to work to fix them
right and I was thinking that I divorced
a few years ago okay not to make a
personal it no but you know if you make
a personal example is immediately
resonated with other people connected
and by the way after I want to say hi to
all the people connected and I remember
when I divorced I thought that’s it is
all my life is over my you know I will
never ever find a different situation
and today that I’m so in love with an
amazing woman and and I think gosh I’m
so happy that I divorced you know I
could still be in that situation was the
one of the best they happen in my life
and is incredible you know fact
perception can can be yeah it’s crazy
when we I think every single person when
they look back on their lives they see
things that they thought were terrible
when they happened but in retrospect put
us on the path that we are on today and
we wouldn’t change them if we could like
if you could go back you wouldn’t fix
that
relationship because it would have
prevented you from meeting the person
that you’re with now and having your
children and all these things and so
like we know objectively that failure is
often good for us right we’ve seen with
the passage of time how failure was a
positive and yet every time something
bad starts to happen to us we get all
upset and we get all worried and we’re
we get afraid that things are gonna be
bad but we know that it works out and so
I think that’s an important reminder the
next time you’re in a situation that
feels overwhelming or scary or awful
it’s like look how am I gonna think
about this in five years how am I gonna
think about this in five months
how am I gonna think about this in five
hours and if if you’re if your answer is
well I’m not going to feel as upset
about it well then why subject yourself
to that now right that’s really I think
one of the most important things in life
though I would say right now let me just
say hi to all the people we are live and
I’m just checking where are people
watching now coming from okay because
I’m always curious about the countries
you know some just checking my real-time
analytics and I see people all right
United Kingdom United States Canada
Germany Ireland Australia Belgium Chile
which is going strong to the World Cup
probably are the only people not
watching the football World Cup at all
on certain other countries so guys if
you want to say hi or just a question or
or give us your your feedback here in
the chat I am just monitoring it all
right
you have the book basically organized in
three main areas a great if I’m wrong
perception action and will right is it
the the path and the flow to follow when
you want to transform an obstacle into
the way or or is just you know a way to
organize the book or is the right yeah
it’s necessarily a one to three kind of
process but they are very interrelated
so first because think about it
something happens you have to perceive
like the first part is perception the
next part is action and then the final
part is will obviously perception
precedes action you shouldn’t go around
acting before you’ve thought or perceive
something properly so I mean action is
is obviously earth sorry perception is
obviously the first step and if you
don’t perceive something rightly you
can’t act rightly so first it’s how you
look at it then it’s what you do about a
situation and then finally it’s how do
you respond to the consequences of that
action which is the will section right
so you know you you perceive a situation
properly you make a decision well now
that decision doesn’t work how do you
continue on that’s where the idea of
willpower and inner strength and and
acceptance and and things like that
that’s where those concepts come in so I
think they flow in sort of a continuous
loop rather than it’s like 1 2 3 ok and
and do you think there is a 1 phase
which is more important than the other
or you have to be good in all all 3 well
yeah I think they all matter a great
deal
I think perception is probably the both
the easiest and the most important step
because again if you you can’t look at
something right it really doesn’t matter
what you do about it or how strong you
are right well what about you Ryan I
mean reading your book uh the first
thing that we’re thinking is alright but
how does he react I mean how does the
focus for instance and I think that I
that I heard that to you for instance
when you want to focus you listen a lot
of music and but you listen
hundreds of times the same kind of song
until you are over with that ready and
you change and maybe you are little be
discussed and hope this song that you
were listening to so what are your
suggestion to to find the right focus
because my my feeling is that for many
people probably also watching our
conversation today they logically
understand
at the point but it is very difficult
when something when she happens is
difficult to stop dear it’s okay ah
let’s follow this formula sure so look I
wrote the book and I’m not in the book
for one reason I’m not perfect at these
things either and I’m not saying you
should do what I do I’m saying this is
what we should do and that this is what
I try to do these are the steps that I
try to follow because it’s what really
smart people have written and learned
through history got it though you know
this morning I’m trying to write and I’m
getting I’m having an email crisis and a
bunch of stuff happening I feel the same
way that everyone else feels but I have
to remind myself like calm down you know
this isn’t a big deal this isn’t worth
getting upset about now and then it sort
of Center yourself and then start
tackling these things one by one and
you’ll have them crossed off the list
right so I understand that all of this
is easier said than done because I try
it myself and I go through the same
difficulties as everyone else I think
with stoicism what you realize is it’s
it’s it’s a process it’s something you
work on every day and every day you get
a little bit better at it’s not
something that you read a book and then
magically you’re transformed and you
have you know you have this superpower
and I think anyone that promises you
that is probably lying to you there’s
there is no easy way but there is a
simple straightforward framework for
dealing with the difficulties that we
face as entrepreneurs and also think
that there are a few examples you
talking for instance about what was the
name Harry Ken Carter the basketball
player and the boxer boxer was also a
movie from Denzel Washington
otherwise yeah yeah and and I mean this
guy he went to the prison so the way he
was reframing the situation is
fundamental I think Nelson Mandela so
people who have such a big problems in
their life more than you know failing
with your business okay but I mean these
people they overcome really huge huge
problems well
think about it is like look if someone
like hurricane Carter or Nelson Mandela
can go to prison and leave bet or
Malcolm X can go to prison and leave
better off for what happened crazy
bizarre whatever difficulty you’re going
through you can emerge better off from
as well because your thing is a little
bit less severe than like a triple life
sentence but after you wrote this book
Ryan yeah your clients they come
sometimes to you and say right Ryan
let’s not talk about marketing
let’s do about we have a problem here
you know and you because the kind of you
know consultant also for they’re sure it
is happening right now yeah I mean and
and I see that with my employees I see
with my clients it’s like okay we’re all
stressed out are all worried about this
thing but really why what do we get out
of that what we should be thinking about
is what does this allow us to do what
can we do now that we couldn’t do before
that this is an opportunity to so it’s
like some you know maybe you’ve always
wanted to say this thing or you’ve
always wanted to humanize your brand or
you’ve always wanted to you know tell
someone something that you were really
passionate about
well this crisis or this scandal or
whatever it is it’s a chance to sort of
break through some of those reservations
and speak really honestly and openly to
the public or whatever it happens to be
I try to focus not on the bad stuff
that’s happened or what you can’t do but
what are the opportunities that are
inherent within this situation that we
can take advantage of right because it
really you don’t get anything focusing
on the other part right control what you
can’t control that and focus your energy
where you’re gonna have an ROI not in
the areas that you would rather focus on
but you’re not gonna get anything right
Ryan Seneca was practicing right I I
know he was practicing but by the way I
think he died with chiku ty I don’t know
how you say in English they’re poison he
it was yeah so he took he took poison
and he slit his his wrists right so um
stoicism very was practicing what he was
preaching and I think like one day I’m
ants or something like that he was
trying to be poor so he was trying to to
see exactly what happened first question
is do you try the same or like one day a
month you go you try to report or and
the second question is what’s the best
way you think is to to prevent you know
to start to practice and understand that
the the way to to front and face
obstacles what’s the right way if there
is a way to practice before the obstacle
is arriving so that you are ready when
the match is starting let’s say sure so
Seneca is a really interesting
historical figure right he’s one of the
most powerful political advisors in Rome
he’s one of the most rich and successful
businessmen in Rome and he’s a
successful writer all at the same time
and so to me what I think is so
interesting about stoicism he’s not like
he was just a little lecturer who had
some smart sounding ideas he was really
doing this in real life and his ideas
were tested at the highest of levels
right so I think that’s that’s
fascinating and I think it’s a great
sort of testament to the validity of the
philosophy we’re talking about in the
book but yeah one of the things he would
talk about even though we had this great
wealth he would practice not having it
so he wasn’t afraid to lose it so he
wasn’t afraid to take risks he wasn’t
afraid to challenge people who might be
able to you know take that wealth away
from him so he didn’t spend all his time
trying to preserve his success he could
actually enjoy it and I think that’s
something that you know a lot of us have
trouble do it we we don’t want to think
about the worst-case scenario because it
makes us deeply uncomfortable and the
Stoics aren’t all about negative
visualization not positive is a
visualization but thinking about
worst-case scenarios and then becoming
okay with them so they lose their power
over us okay and and what do you think I
just want to ask a few things more about
well what do you think let’s try to do
give you an example
we definitely have startups watching us
and by the way Amanda say Riley I’m very
spied by your book a great read thank
you so thank you good for you and the
imagine that there is a start-up and I
know III think I launched super summit
is my sixth or seventh startup so I know
what does it mean when you start a new
struggle and you have to try to grow and
you have so many problems to do you know
just to grow your your company and I
think a lot of people are in this
situation at the moment that are
watching us and what you think are where
would you start from I mean to start to
see the situation in a different way to
– you know get get the obstacle upside
down what in your uh your framework I
mean if you should say three things
absolutely focus on these three things
now sure but first off I would focus on
the fact that it’s supposed to be hard
if it was easy to start a company and
anyone could do it
there wouldn’t be any money or reason to
do so right it’s supposed and this is a
process of winnowing out all the people
who are not as strong as you
and then second of all I would focus on
the fact that what you’re doing now the
lessons and decisions that you were
doing are training and practice for what
you are going to need in the future you
are you are like starting a company
front loads the difficulties of a
business right you’re having to decide
what you stand for how you run things
who’s a part of your team what your
business this is all the important part
this is like deciding you’re gonna get
strong and go to the gym
you gotta lift weights and it sucks and
you’re really sore at for it all but you
get into a rhythm and you learn how to
do things and then I think finally you
realize like look there are going to be
challenges but it’s these challenges
that are going to present the
opportunities that my business takes
advantage of right um you know a
competitor starts to step into your
space
now you have to challenge that
competitor and that’s how you’re gonna
defend yourself that’s how you’re gonna
carve out your business a client might
get upset with you they might not want
to work with you anymore this is a
chance for you to figure out what’s
wrong with your business what you need
to improve what you need to change so
what let’s go back to the quote that we
opened the the talk with this idea of
the impediment to action advance is
actual it stands in the way becomes a
way when stuff stands in your way you
just want to remind yourself like look
I’m going to respond to this in a way
that benefits me and my business I’m not
going to be weak I’m not gonna run away
from it I’m not gonna hide I’m not gonna
take it personally I’m gonna see how I
can benefit from this and I’m gonna face
every single situation that way and it
becomes over time a recipe for not just
optimism but for greatness because your
your emerging from each obstacle better
than you were before I love it right now
let me talk a little bit about marketing
because I mean you have such a huge
knowledge and the legend says that 21
years old you became marketing director
of American opera it is okay so which is
I mean obviously amazing but the the
situation today that the company has to
face is out there on one side you have
so many media you know social media
Twitter Facebook everything and on the
other side there is so much noise and
start to be very difficult to promote
yourself so number one I was curious to
know what do you do to promote your own
book because I mean if you’re so good to
promote other stuff I mean Tim Ferriss
books or or for your customers I’m
wondering what you what do you create to
promote your own book that’s something
I’m very curious about yeah look I think
the most important thing that people
miss when they market stuff is they they
don’t they think that marketing is
something distinct from the creative
process as well right so it’s like what
happens if someone goes off and writes a
book and then tries to figure out how to
market it which is a huge mistake
instead you want to think about how can
you make something that’s very easy to
market how can you bake the
interesting conversational provocative
parts into the thing so you know for me
like I wanted to write a book about
philosophy but like we were talking
about earlier most people don’t think
that they need philosophy so I wrote it
more as a book about how to solve
problems in business and in life that
happens to be influenced by philosophy
and then you try to make you try to make
your prop your process you try to narrow
down your focus to be as simple and
straightforward and catchy as possible
right like I could have called this you
know a modern-day introduction to
stoicism but that’s not a very
captivating book title right I wanted to
call I want to call the obstacles the
way and then I actually got it literally
tattooed on my arm because like I was
such a good phrase like it’s about
creating catchy interesting compelling
ways to describe who you are and what
you’re doing and then I think the third
most important part is understanding who
influences people in your space how does
your powers your product going to get
sold and then creating a marketing plan
that takes advantage of that
you know I identified the influencers in
this business space I got them copies
earlier early I just I I designed a book
I knew that they would be interested in
I brought some of them on as partners
like Tim Ferriss actually published the
audiobook of my book which made him a
huge advocate of it in a way that you
wouldn’t have if if it was just some guy
he knew who released a book right um
I think you know what what so many
authors do wrong is not just writing a
book that you know they didn’t think
about how to market it but then they
don’t think about marketing until two
weeks before it comes out yeah dude Seth
Godin was saying that takes three years
to launch a successful book and you know
I don’t know if I’ve been planning it
for three years but I’ve been planning
this release and every facet of it for a
really long time right the the big
question here is sometimes you maybe you
work for a company
I always remember one guy one one day
was a presentation I think was with Gary
Knowles you
presentations and guy and and it was one
guy from the audience that after the
presentation said gar sori ever one
question and was a great presentation
but I have to present shampoo and is not
sexy it’s not good is probably I’m not
you know I don’t even like it so what
could I do and I don’t remember what it
was is uncertain what if you don’t think
shampoo is interesting and you’ll like
it and you don’t know how to talk about
an interesting way
you shouldn’t represent shampoo right I
think that’s the problem is is people if
you’re not passionate about this product
and so it’s two things one if you’re not
passionate about it you should leave if
you don’t think that it’s as good as it
could be to get other people excited
about it then you have to change that so
you know I think it’s really interesting
like a company like Instagram Instagram
started as a different company it was
called bourbon and it wasn’t good and
people didn’t like it and they changed
and they became Instagram that’s a
marketing decision deciding to improve
the product so it is exciting so it’s
not boring and so you actually do like
it that’s that that’s marketing that’s
great marketing and I think a lot of
people are afraid to do that so I don’t
work if I don’t love a book if I don’t
think an author did a great job I don’t
work on it I leave that to somebody else
okay I like this point right and when
you wrote trust me I’m lying you
basically revealed the way that I I
think like big blog the big blogging
platforms how they work of the fact that
any traffic they need to produce tones
of content and so he’s easy to let’s say
influence them with the right tactics
and strategy so and it was something
that maybe in the industry we knew it
about it but you were the first to write
it you know black and white and people
say whoa
you know it really works like that yeah
then I thought probably everything will
change after the book but then I saw you
know upworthy BuzzFeed and they
gigantic machines with super sexy catchy
a be testing titles just collect clicks
and and views and and so on so it’s
still the same or maybe the situation is
even worse but what was appealing about
that yeah look I wrote the book I wanted
to expose sort of how the sausage gets
made so then people can decide how much
sausage they want to eat right and it
turns out people still really like the
sausage I guess or maybe the book hasn’t
the book hasn’t has it you know affected
everyone I think you know we live in an
immediate environment that has a lot of
short-term toxic incentives and that
works the final product that we see as
consumers I don’t know what the solution
is I just knew that I wanted to write
the book to show people like it you know
I was thinking like if one guy so you
reads it and it changes how they they
read the news that’s worth it to me and
whether it changes the system or not I
think is probably out of my hands but I
wanted to I wanted to create that
literacy for people who are interested
in figuring out how it works right
I would like sometimes to give you
questions from the chart but I try to
recap that the most interesting ones I’m
already doing but and sometimes I have
to tell you also you know Merced is fun
salut I don’t know Merced is where are
you from Uruguay looks like if it’s or
why I can’t topi do require people until
there is Italy Uruguay for a football
match so well if I was a great book
great book so you have readers here and
tell me one thing Ryan mmm-hmm
I I recently saw just European I
recently saw uber and a lot of con
control controversy like a lot of
controversy and protests in all Europe
in London big strikes and the effect was
that uber became you know mainstream a
50% increase in their booking crazy
really crazy do you think there is a
strategy there too
you know fire controllers there or is
just you know yeah I think Ober has done
a great job marketing themselves and
present it like what they’ve done a
really good job is presenting themselves
as the underdog who sort of fighting
these fighting these people who are
resistant to change
I mean uber is worth 18 billion dollars
so they’re not like a little guy but
they make themselves they’ve done a good
job of attacking unions and taxi cab
companies that don’t have a lot of
friends and governments that people
aren’t huge fans of and making them seem
like they’re sort of a force for good
and what I think the reason though they
benefit from all the controversy is the
fact that they have a really good
product and if you don’t have a really
good product it doesn’t matter how
controversial you are so it it’s like if
you make something that’s amazing then
you can challenge these people and the
more they talk about you the better it
is for you same would say Airbnb
probably something similar great product
and then they say let’s change the way
right right so to recap your your tape
2014 if I go to Ryan holiday with my
company whatever startup or big
companies and I say look what I really
should focus today is number one build a
great product yeah is there any specific
platform or new way that you find – the
interesting – to market products or are
still the old same rules so build a
great product and vote and find the
right influencers and finger cross look
obviously that’s important but when I
try to think about is like look where is
everyone else like competing and trying
to get attention and then don’t do that
because that’s where everyone else is so
it’s like what is the new platform that
people and I try not to talk about
specifics because it always changes
right but it’s like where where is there
a group of people who you’re gonna have
the greatest ROI with rather than where
are the most amount of people does that
make sense okay
where where where is where your
competitors trying to get all their
customers and I’ll give you a great
example so uber uber is big competitors
lift right it’s another startup now
they’re in all of these cities um
lyft realize that uber was banned in
Austin where I lived and and so lift and
and it was banned because there’s like a
log here well lift was like look we’re
just we’re gonna say screw the law and
we’re gonna exist here anyway we’re
gonna operate in violation of the law
and they did it and they got like a two
or three-week head start on uber and now
lift is huge in Austin because they
attacked uber where uber was weak rather
than rather than trying to make some
huge push in New York City or uber is
much stronger okay so try to find study
or your competitors and try to find
places where that they are not so strong
or do the opposite of what are you doing
basically exactly and look that’s that’s
military strategy as well and I talked
about that an obstacle you don’t attacks
force doesn’t go against force you want
you want to attack where there is
surprise or weakness or vulnerability
that’s where you want to focus your
effort because that’s we’re gonna have
the most ROI I read a Boris Becker book
once biography Becker you know the the
German German tennis player okay and I
was one point but one part where
basically the question was what was your
secret to win and he said the formula
for me is very simple I play my
strongest
stroke against the weakest part of my
opponent yeah it works very well and do
you think do you have any tip for
companies here that maybe they don’t
have big budget because you know if
you’re coca-cola probably you say okay
no Microsoft they say I have 1 billion 3
billion I would do my my marketing
strategy I can do billions of things but
if you are start up again you know you
need to use Ryan holidays approach so
not Orthodox finding different ways any
particular takeaways on this topic yeah
so I wrote a book on growth hacking and
I think growth hacking is something
that’s that’s worth looking at it’s an
e-book it’s like three bucks I would
suggest people check that out it’s
called growth hacker marketing but
basically the way I see it is if you
don’t have a huge budget then you have
to make up for it by being interesting
and taking risks right so the reason
that Microsoft needs a billion dollars
is because their products are really
boring and their ads are really boring
and their marketing is really boring and
you could pay to get it in front of
people because people don’t want to see
it when I work with American Apparel we
make really provocative interesting ads
that people want to see that they really
like and so the less you have the more
the better
what you do has to be I think that’s the
rule of thumb right another question
here is when do you start to talk with
media because what I see often is a
startup create his MVP or his product
and then prepare a good press release
and start to spam with the press release
all the journalists in the universe
TechCrunch if is in the tech industry or
wherever and they try just to get
coverage and that’s it that’s the
strategy basically a lot of you know
pushing with the journalists when is the
right moment to talk with journalists
and how yeah well I think you have to
ask what are you actually trying to get
out of the coverage just being on
TechCrunch doesn’t do anything for you
you have to ask why and what for you
need to be strategic about it and you
have to say okay
if we’re gonna be on TechCrunch one time
do we want it to be today or is it
actually better for it to happen a month
a month from now or six months from now
when we’re actually prepared to take
advantage of it
so discipline is really important when
it comes to doing the media and being
strategic is important as well I think
about it it’s like when are we gonna
have our best most compelling story
about ourselves and timing it that way
and it’s usually not as early as you
think and it
you can’t get customers without media
coverage then I would evaluate what
you’re doing you know what I mean like
if your product can only get people to
sign up for it because TechCrunch wrote
about it there’s probably something
wrong with what you’re doing
all right so and and where do you start
then what’s the first part where would
you start
wrong-o getting media coverage no just
when you want to promote you launch and
you want to promote we’re all right I
it’s like where that where’s your I mean
I think part of the problem is people
think you need huge media outlets when
really you need I mean you have an
audience that watches this show right
chances are you could probably drive
more users that are new signups then you
know someone then the New York Times or
whatever right so it’s about finding the
people who can drive you actual real
customers like you know we talked about
uber uber launched at South by Hoover
got all its customers in San Francisco
and then every year it did great South
by Southwest marketing when people from
all over the world would come to Austin
and use uber for the first time and then
take it back to their cities with them
so it’s about finding out where your
people are and how to get at them that’s
the core that’s the core critical
function of marketing it’s not getting
your name in headlines right Ryan couple
of minutes before D and just curious
about your your next steps what’s coming
next for Ryan holiday the obstacle is
the way okay
coming out right now but I know that you
write like like crazy you know you’re
always writing a lot yeah I mean I’m
always trying to write I try to write
one or two articles a week so that keeps
me busy I have I’m working on my next
book and then I have a marketing company
that I you know I consult with a very
small select number of clients but
they’re they’re big ones that I like a
lot that I believe what they’re doing
and I focus on that very good Ryan thank
you so much thanks for watching to all
the people Ryan holiday D obstacle is
the way and blue or purple cover in UK
white in US so I think I thought was a
different book because I always thought
the
one but in UK guys is let’s say the
purple is not even blue and great book
thank you so much Ryan and see you soon bye really appreciate thank you
Please follow and like us: