they said you are the highest moneymaker
mafia boss outside of alpha point you
were making six to eight milliliter
aspired to be made
I was 17 years old my dad drew a 50 year
prison sentence my best friend was
walking in Philomath but the setup was
bad yeah I’ll be honest what I might
have gotten killed so there’s a lot of
people I sit down with and I meet but
Michael I have to tell you you’re you’re
one of the most fascinating people that
I’ve been looking forward to sitting
down with and you had Nicky eyes and
Mikey franchisee when you hear about the
modern day not even a modern day you
know the movie Godfather everybody has a
poster and you watch the movie and you
hear about Michael Corleone and you
think is there really a character like
that you pretty much are the real-life
Michael Corleone leaper say of that
story right so it’s exciting to be
sitting out with you appreciate you for
making the time and welcoming us to your
place here well thank you and I have
been compared obviously to to Michael I
think it’s a good comparison at times
because Al Pacino he played a terrific
role in that movie yeah and there is a
certain flow that I watch in the movie
with them and I see with you where the
mannerisms it’s amazing how close that
is with the mannerisms that you have on
the way you speak so let’s get right
into it if you don’t know Michael
Franzese II let me give you some stats
here’s the best way to open it up so
you’ll know who we’re sitting down with
so in 1986 Fortune magazine November
10th Fortune magazine there’s an article
saying the 50 biggest mafia bosses right
and and when you go through this the
part in here that’s fascinating to me is
the following they have you down on 18th
place right and then they had John Gotti
at 13 so you look at this and you say
well you’re 18 Gotti is 13 and then you
have Anthony Salerno at first and you
have some of these other name Persico
Carmine Persico you work with very
closely for many years
Salvatore Santoro some of these names
that people know about the part that I
looked at Michael there is not a single
person on this list where there
starts with the number three except for
you gadi was 46
you were 35 so we’re not just talking
about somebody who made it to the high
level of the Colombo family the five
families the Colombo family yourself you
did it at 35 years old how was it being
raised into that environment in that
family I would say I had a good role
model as far as you know my dad being a
real person of substance in that life
and you know I love my father he was he
was everything to me
growing up and you know he was an
important figure there and it’s not that
I tried to emulate him Patrick because I
never thought I would be part of that
life growing up you know I had different
thoughts I was gonna you know I was an
athlete I was going to school I was
going to be a doctor but once I made a
decision to get into that life I had as
far as I was concerned the best guy in
the world to model myself after and that
was my dad I learned a lot from him
directly watching all the things that
was taking place yeah just the way he
carried himself you know the way people
respected him the respect that he had
for my mother and and my sisters and
just the way he carried himself you know
and he was a man’s man and you know from
the time I was five years old my father
drummed it into my head you know Michael
you have to be a man’s man that’s the
standard in life you have to live up to
he in many ways form the person that
that I became later on in life yeah it’s
so much street credit that you can tell
if somebody did something to you and
they knew who your dad was there was a
line like you couldn’t mess with it how
was it being raised in that environment
well it was different you know I always
tell the story I was an athlete and
baseball was really my sport and my dad
would never miss a game no matter what
he was doing mob business legit business
I’d be playing ball he’d show up he’d
always come to the field late and he’d
pull up in a big black Cadillac or a
black Lake and he’d get out of the car
dressed sharp in a suit and he’d always
have five or six guys with him because
he never traveled alone and I’d be up to
bat and they’d walk out on the field the
umpire would take one look at him and
never call strike three on me so I mean
it had his advantages you know being
Sonny Franzese his son you know he he
was just a great father you know and
obviously I knew there was something
different about him but my dad never
spoke about it now
it’s really never so you didn’t really
know fully what was taking place never
from him I knew because he was such a
high-profile figure that we lived in an
environment where law enforcement was
around us all the time and he was under
surveillance from five or six different
agencies from the feds right down to all
the state and locals so they would Park
cause around our house and follow us
wherever we went and you know I viewed
them at that time as the enemy because I
viewed my dad is my hero and so I knew
who he was I obviously read the papers
he had a lot of press and I observed
things but never from his mouth he would
never bring it into the house for in the
house we were just the family that
didn’t exist isn’t that interesting yeah
door six areas I’d like to touch up on
here with you one is story on how that
life was to how the game because you
wrote a book I’ll make you an offer you
cannot refuse the game between what you
have to experience now similar that is
on the corporate side I think there’s a
lot to be learned from the entrepreneurs
who watch this I do how to identify
consigliere I really want to stay on
that because what it means to be a
conciliar II how do you identify that
it’s a very fascinating way you talk
about it in the book human nature you
know how do you read through the BS and
how do you read through some people that
are trying to take advantage of you what
are some of the things that you saw and
then some side questions about
characters and then some fun questions
at the end I will go through so why
don’t we get into it as far as when you
knew and you said I want to get in how
did you get into the whole you know
family I want to become a made man how
did that whole experience take place
with you you know Patrick I never
aspired to be a made man you know I was
on a different path in life but I was 17
years old when my dad drew a 50 year
prison sentence and went off to serve
his federal time and I sat with my dad I
visited him in the federal jail before
they shipped him off to the penitentiary
and he said to me Michael I’m innocent
I didn’t commit this crime it was
alleged to have masterminded a
nationwide string of bank robberies he
said I never knew the witnesses I’m not
a bank robber the witnesses were all
drug addicts junkies and one thing
I knew my dad hated anything to do with
drugs my whole life he preached against
her he would make up stories about drug
addicts to scare me never to take drugs
so I knew he would never bother with
people like this so I believed him and
when he went away joe columbo the boss
of our family who we were close with he
kind of took me under his wing because
my dad was his underboss and I started
to meet a lot more of my dad’s friends
you know and they were influencing me
Mike you know what are you doing going
to school I was a pre-med student at
that time shortly after that you know if
you don’t help you father out he’s gonna
die in prison so I went to see him in
Leavenworth and I said that I’m not
going to school you’re gonna die in here
if I don’t help he didn’t want that I
mean he kind of argued no I want you to
go to school get an education I said dad
it’s too late my mind is made up and he
said to me he said if you’re gonna be on
the street then I want you on the street
the right way in his mind the right way
was to become a member of his life and
he proposed me at that point for
membership into the life and you know
the interesting thing Pat my father even
at that point never told me what the
life was about you know you’re not
supposed to talk about that life with
anybody outside of it and he wouldn’t
violate that policy even with me it’s on
something my dad’s a good soldier he
just said go home somebody would be in
touch with you do whatever you’re told
it was kind of on the job training and
two weeks later I sat with the boss and
you know he ran things down for me and
told me what to expect and for the next
year and a half I was kind of a recruit
where I kind of learned the life had to
do anything I was told to do to prove
myself worthy and then Halloween night
1975 is one it was formally inducted
into that life you remembered vividly
vividly yeah and how was what was that
process like was there ritual was there
an experience you had to go through very
very solemn ceremony very serious six of
us walked into a room individually
towards midnight that night it was a
very secure setting obviously I walked
into a room the boss was seated ahead of
like a horseshoe configuration the
underboss in the console area to his
left and right all of our capo regimes
our captains alongside of them and I
walk down the aisle stood in front of
the boss I held out my hand he took a
knife right here cut my finger some
blood dropped on the floor this is a
blood oath I cupped my hands he took a
picture of a saint Catholic Baltic Cod
put it on
hands eluded a flame it didn’t hurt it
would burn quickly it was just symbolic
and he said tonight Michael Franzese you
are born again and to a new life until
of course I know stir this thing of ours
violate what you know about this life
betray your brothers and you will die
and burn in hell like this Saint is
burning in your hands do you accept yes
I do and that’s it
that’s the ritual that’s wart and sweet
but extremely serious now there was six
of you the six of us we went in
individually you take it alone got it
and then out of these six apparently
you’re the only one that’s alive so all
that they’re all dead
one of them died in natural causes every
one of them were murdered Wow
so why are you still here you know
because if you if you read the story and
you you you you put yourself out there
and it’s not like you went in you ratted
people out or you became an informant
there’s nothing there that people will
say even some of the guys that were
upset that you stepped away they don’t
call you Informer they just say you know
it’s impressive to see that he was able
to make it and we’re proud of them even
some of your enemies are saying good
things about you what how did you how
was that process for you never hear
somebody survive when they leave the
family
how did that happen with you well you
know Patrick I don’t I didn’t have any
grand plan because there’s no blueprint
to walk away from that life not enter a
program and survive and you know I’m
only saying this because it’s a fact I
don’t know of anybody else that has done
that successfully especially at the
level that I reached because I was at a
pretty high level you know I didn’t know
how it was gonna work out I knew that
when I walked away people are gonna be
upset you don’t walk away from that life
you’re not allowed to renounce it and I
had a lot of trouble as a result but you
know for me there’s two sides of this
there’s a spiritual side obviously I’m a
person of faith and the bottom line for
me is I believe God had a different plan
and a purpose for my life and over the
past 20 years I’ve seen more evidence of
that and I’m very secure with that it’s
God’s plan but aside from that you know
I realized that God never throws you
into the fire without preparing you
first
so I spent 20 years in that life at a
very high level and I was a good student
of the life I observed in our why
and I I reached a certain level there so
I knew I had to make changes you know
one of the horrors about that life and I
don’t know if you know this but you
might be in trouble
in serious trouble your best friend
walks you into a room you don’t walk out
again and unfortunately I’ve experienced
that in my life with other people and so
I said okay they’re not gonna walk me
into a room they’re gonna have to work
to get me I move out of New York I would
have never made it in New York I move
way out across the country to California
it’s one thing to try to walk somebody
into the room it’s another thing to send
a hit squad to try to get somebody who
knows what’s going on and I never put a
house in my name no utilities I I never
went to any nightclubs bad place for me
I know who hangs out there somebody sees
me they make a call to New York they
want to be a hero I walk in a parking
lot
boom I’m gone I stop creating patterns
in my life I never went to the same
restaurant every Tuesday night and never
walked my dog every morning at seven
o’clock so if somebody was scoping me
they had a they had a tough time in
figuring out where I was and I was very
disciplined in that very disciplined
because I never sell my former
associates short it was very capable
guys there and then what happened I just
outlasted everybody
I mean who went to jail who got killed
we had a big war in our family in the
early 90s about 13 guys got killed
another 20 or something went to jail for
life and I just outlasted everybody and
you know the major thing for me was that
I never testified against anybody I
didn’t send anybody to prison I didn’t
put anybody in trouble had I done that
it would have been a lot worse
it would have been a lot worse because
some people had personal feelings
against me because when I left you know
look I was making a lot of money a lot
of people were earning with me and when
you shut that off people get upset and
they resented that you know especially
my boss at the time but the fact that he
didn’t hurt anybody over a period of
time that really went
my favor and listen you know there’s no
guarantees you know I’m still careful
when I go to a certain place he’ll feel
today oh yeah really so the level of
paranoia is not gone it’s not paranoia
and I you know it’s not a macho thing I
don’t want you to think that but I just
feel very secure but you know look God
doesn’t tell you to be stupid I can’t go
back to Brooklyn say hey guys I’m moving
back into a book or you know it would be
like thumbing my nose at that face so I
don’t do that but you know listen I’m a
speaker I’m out in front of thousands of
people every week I’ve signed books for
hundreds of people I don’t know who’s on
that book line you know you never know
you know I’m not a kid anymore
you know God has blessed me with with
good things in my life and I think I’ll
be around for a while longer but if not
I mean what could you do I mean that’s
that’s how I look at things it it seems
Michael that you’re very result I mean
when i when when speaking to you there’s
none of it that you’re uncomfortable
which was fascinating but talking about
numbers I don’t know if everybody really
knows what kind of numbers you were
bringing in the numbers I read about you
were making six to eight mil awake six
to eight million per week and you were
selling a half a billion dollars of gas
per month and they said you are the
highest moneymaker mafia boss outside of
Al Capone I mean there’s a lot of people
that are making money with you how did
that happen people think that mob guys
sit around and their social clubs and we
start to target different businesses
well we’re going to take that over I’m
going to do this normally doesn’t happen
that way
what happens is people come to us people
would come to me with all sorts of deals
and it was mostly guys that came inside
their company that had a way to make
some money and they figure they can do
with me I can protect them I can finance
and we have strengths you know all that
and that’s how this happened in the gas
business some guy came to me at a very
small gasoline operation and he said you
know I have a way to defraud the
government out of tax on every gallon of
gasoline was attractive to me because at
that time I didn’t like the government
and you know my targets back then were
always bigger companies I didn’t go
after small the list of companies they
CLA you didn’t go out there no I didn’t
go after so I figure the ones that can
afford it nope
and the government was a huge company so
what happened he had a couple of other
wise guys that were kind of trying to
extort him in his business and I was
able to solve that for him and then we
went into business together and I’ll
tell you how it happened I I put
somebody with him because I didn’t know
him that well and I said I’m gonna put
this fellow with you we’re gonna see
exactly what you got going on and we’ll
try to figure this out well the guy put
with him was a butcher he was my butcher
big guy at a scar across the top of his
said big Vinny we called him so he’s
coming home every Saturday he would
bring meat to my house right
so this Saturday he pulls up and he’s
got this big box on his shoulder and I
said what do you don’t want all that
meat are we having a party or something
I don’t know about it he says hey chief
at a meat I said what is it he’s to come
on in the kitchen we go in the kitchen
he puts the Box down he opens it up
$280,000 he said that’s the first week
steak in the gas business and long story
short he really got my attention at that
point I grew that 280 into at times
almost eight million dollars a week
bring it her week her will get down and
basically you know devised the scheme
built upon what that little germ of an
idea that he had and we were defrauding
the government out of tax on every
gallon of gasoline it was 20 to 40 cents
depending where you were located the
government couldn’t figure it out
we had a very efficient scheme put
together they just couldn’t figure it
out
we were always one step at it and is
this part of a whole Rico story which
was you know what kind of link to that
where corporation after corporation
after corporation and then last one he
would follow bankruptcy and this this
was figured out on how to avoid paying
the taxes which allowed you to kind of
compete against your marketplace so you
had guys that were buying a million
gallons all of us under buying two three
then they’re doing ten million gallons
from you and you’re one of the biggest
vendors to them better we would you’re
not even middle east don’t know from
Texas you know you’re Italian doing this
I had probably 300 gas stations we had
branded and non-branded stations and
what we would do is let’s say it was a
Mobil station I’m just picking that out
because we dealt with a show and we go
to a station say how much you paying for
a gallon of gas it’s not paying a dollar
now how would you like to pay 95 cents
the five cents is big sake boys he said
great I said I’ll tell you what you do
you how many gallant how many loads a
week you’re getting from mobile oh we’re
getting six all right by three from them
by three from us we’ll deliver in the
middle of the night we’ll save you that
by the end of the day they wanted to
deliver they wanted us to service them
ball they didn’t want to buy anything
from opal anymore I said you can’t do
that you got to keep you a brand nobody
can compete with us and if we bought a
couple of gas stations like I remember
one incident there were four gas
stations on the corner big ones we
bought one of them and I went to the
other three and I said now here’s the
deal I said I’m gonna be the lowest guy
in a corner I said if you sell for 95
I’m gonna sell for 92 if you sell from
92 I’m gonna go down to 80 until I put
you all out of business so let’s keep it
at a certain level and we don’t have to
compete told them that so there was a
regulator number that we’re doing with
so no one’s I said if you guys stay at
this number you’ll be fine
if you try to compete with me I’m gonna
knock you out because you can’t compete
with me and pretty soon they were all
buying for me anyway they’ll never be
anything like that again
I don’t know if I read this right I saw
you talk about it where one of the guys
you did business with was this the oil
guy who for eight years tracked
everything that you were doing who was
actually the guy that ended up becoming
the informant that gave me formation
either you know stop the entire
operation yeah he was my partner he’s
passed away now we never had an ill word
and seven years that we were together my
kids called him uncle Larry his kids
called me uncle Michael but the whole
time I was his meal ticket because he
knew if he ever got in trouble that I
was a guy that they would want so he
kept a diary on me he testified against
me in one case a big case would rudy
giuliani and i did me and i was
acquitted so the jury still didn’t
believe him you’re making all the
family’s money now they’re all kind of
happy about you but at the same time you
know you’re there as well what happened
when all of a sudden you were growing a
little too fast what kind of threats did
you start seeing at that point where
there’s some people that were power
people saying wait a minute I don’t like
this guy having this much power yeah you
know what happened I had a couple of
things against me number one I was a
younger guy
and the older guys tend to resent you
you know you’re young you’re doing all
this you’re making all this money and
that comes with the territory he can’t
help that you try to deal with it as
best you can you know you’re not flaming
that fire so to speak but it happens and
then you know I had teamed up with the
Russians I had all the Russian mob guys
in Brighton Beach Brooklyn were all my
partners and they were pretty big crew
and I think it was Newsday publication
out in Long Island had written a story
that I was becoming so powerful I was
gonna break away from the Colombo’s and
start my own family no truth to it
whatsoever was like a fairy tale fiction
made up but it got into people’s heads
and you know my boss started to question
some of the Russian guys and something
started to happen like that and I knew
it so I was on my guard about it you
know my father and I discussed it my dad
was always in and out of jail on parole
so when he was out we talked about these
things but I knew I had to watch myself
you know it comes with the territory
what was the one event that happened
where you’re kind of like listen I got a
started taking a look at what’s going on
with me was it Joey
Columbo story was at the Castellano what
God he did to him or what was it what
you’re like listen I’m gonna start
paying a little bit more attention on
what’s going on the marketplace right
now you know it wasn’t that it was it
was an incident that I had personally
with my boss when they they basically
walked me into that room and really put
me on the hot seat because there was a
story that said that I would I had stole
two billion dollars from the government
and I’m handing a family two million
dollars a week and so I mean I got
questioned you know what I’m saying two
billion dollars Michael I said hey my
answer was when they write about
everybody else it’s a lie when they’re
writing about me all of a sudden it’s
the truth I said come on
man I’m giving you guys all this money
you don’t have to do anything I’m taking
care of everything you know I put nobody
in trouble nobody’s on the line here if
anybody goes down it’s going to be me
and my crew I said well what’s going on
here you know so I got a little upset
about it and then I was talking to the
boss and you don’t lose your head with
the boss but I got al angry and then I
had a
I have told myself down a little bit you
know on it and but that put me on the
alert and I said you know I got to
really watch myself here because you
know mistakes here you pay dearly for in
life and I kind of just like I said put
me really on my guard yeah I’ll be
honest her I thought it was I thought I
might have gotten killed that night you
know did the set up was bad my best
friend was walking me until Roma was a
it was a room in Brooklyn I’ll be honest
with ya you know I had a walk out of the
car and into that house and base that
basement apartment it’s probably a 30
yard walk that was either the longest or
the shortest welcome Wow I mean I as I
speak now I can hear the crickets
chirping and I can remember the smell of
the flowers alone because you know Petro
gallant someone you think you’re gonna
meet your maker and I was in a religious
guy at that point you start to pray and
I was I was nervous I tried not to show
it because I said hey if this is it this
is it you kind of get conditioned to
them yes but uh yeah that was the night
and I didn’t appreciate it years later
now because you have you hear stories
that your father was involved and he
wasn’t involved how do you feel about
that whole situation where was your dad
really kind of saying let’s find out if
Michael is really making this money and
I’m not you know we’re not getting a
piece of it how did you respond to that
at that time I think my dad kind of
threw me under the bus a little bit that
night he you know he went in separately
and I was told that he didn’t defend me
he just kind of backed off and said hey
if my son is stealing he does everything
I don’t do anything I was I’m on parole
he handles everything and knows on bad
terms at that time no we want a great
term well it really hurt you know
because I said man it kind of gave me
really pause because I said you know if
this life can separate father and son
what do we really have here I never said
anything to him because you know again
in that life you learned to keep things
quiet until you were at the right time
and but it really put me on notice that
I got to really be careful I was very
disappointed in him I didn’t it didn’t
change my love for him or anything but I
was extremely I was really disappointed
it really hurt how do you from a moment
like that that’s it that’s a big scar
this is a man that grew up you need to
be a man’s man from five years old you
know he’s shaping you into who you are
and he’s coming through
James he’s always at your game how do
you from that moment trust anybody else
and not believe that you know at some
moment somebody could turn um is that
the faith part that completely changed
it that brought the peace it did you
know I understand my father I know he’s
really a product of that life and I kind
of understood even though I didn’t
appreciate it
I know my dad still loved me it wasn’t
anything like that it’s very hard to
explain to anybody else so I gave my
wife has a real problem with this she
says you know you know how do you
forgive that I used to tell her you
don’t don’t worry about it it’s okay and
you know we have this special bond
between us and I understand the life I’m
a product of who but it was still
disappointing because I would have never
done that to him but I’ll tell you what
I almost thanked him for it now because
I’ll tell you this Patrick I met my wife
two years after that and that’s when I
made the decision to walk away from that
life but if this innocent incident
didn’t happen with my dad I don’t think
I would have ever walked away Wow
I think that was God’s Way of separating
me from this bond or this hold that my
dad had on me so I’d look back and I
said actually it was a good thing
because I don’t think I would have
walked away it’s amazing how you process
it that way I mean I don’t know who can
sit there and go through that and not
think of a different way but the way
you’re processing his demand that did
this to give your life maybe a second
chance type of a situation very
interesting so and now he’s 100 years
old you know you were telling me you
know he had a surgery recently he’s
doing good he’s still sharp he thinks
he’s gonna live a long time which is
great he still talks to me like I’m part
of that life he’s unbelievable
reminiscing and telling old stories that
you remember Michael Oher yes
you know I always say this look my dad
did a lot of rough things in his life so
did I I went to jail for crime that I
was guilty of but you know that
particular crime that he did 38 years in
prison for he was innocent off and I’ll
take that to my grave real awe hundred
percent I investigated that case spoke
to every witness they recanted that
testimony
we gave him why detective test proved
they lied at the trial
the FBI was complicit and turning them
against my dad it was a bad case she was
framed thousand percent people say well
you know he got away with so much that’s
not how our system supposed to work
they have enough tools and weapons the
government to get people the right way
they’re not supposed to do that no
matter what or who you are because
they’re they do it against the bad guys
one day they can do it against the good
guys if it suits them so I always say
tell people look you wouldn’t want my
dad’s life in the last 50 years that man
suffered did 38 years in prison my
sister died of an overdose of drugs
while he was away my brother was a drug
addict my brother actually turned
against my father went into the witness
protection program and testified against
him and got him thrown back in jail my
kid brother I mean my father was
destroyed over there you know my mom
passed away in the last years before she
passed away I can only describe their
relationship as ugly she blamed him for
everything on 33 years without a husband
she blamed him for everything that went
down so I mean the guy’s suffered
tremendously and I have a real heart for
that you know I love my dad and we
patched things up you know it’s amazing
how you know people said I’d never have
a relationship with him again that you
know when I walked away and God has
brought it full circle and I found out
one thing Patrick you have to give
children or children want to love their
parents you got to give him a real
recent not to love their parents
powerful absolutely I’m just thankful
that we have this relationship again so
Sparks restaurants famous for you know
Paul Castellano is where he got shot
outside by John Gotti and that whole
relationship how was possible Castellano
was he really just a money business guy
I knew Paul I didn’t know him well
because she was a boss I was young at
that time but I was in his company quite
a bit and I did have an incident with
him and quite honestly you know the word
on him on the street was not great I
don’t think he had a lot of real friends
on the streets especially any other
families I know in our family they
didn’t talk well about him
more of a business guy you know that
kind of a thing I think people think
that maybe he didn’t earn the position
that he had because he was so close to
car loan
Carlo gave him that spot you know it
went down with Gotti I mean it was it
was either him or Gotti at that point
and John made the move and you know in
our life there’s no election process you
know if you’re gonna take over you’re
gonna take over the hard way
you don’t rival a boss and look for
votes you rival a boss by eliminating
you know look money is always at the
root of just about everything there you
know if you were good you make people
earn people like you that’s the bottom
line you know and if they don’t like it
they’ll tolerate you because you’re
earning with them but he was kind of
known to be a greedy guy and he didn’t
fit the the profile of the real mob boss
in a way you know God he doesn’t make
that move on his own he kind of solicits
people hey what do you think he tries to
get some support that if this would have
happened you know how are people gonna
react so he kind of knew how it was
gonna work out if he took him out every
time you had a running with them you’ve
had obviously many run-ins with them
you’ve done a couple sit downs with them
how was Gaudi like personality-wise why
did he have this you know
larger-than-life story the nowhere near
the kind of money you brought him what
made him that special well you know he
was he fit the Hollywood profile so to
speak and he had the look you had the
mannerisms you know one thing I will say
about John I happen to like him you know
socially a lot of fun we were going a
club give me a lot of fun and he was a
good guy to be around business he didn’t
really understand business and and it
was a nightmare dealing with him in that
respect because one thing about Gotti in
his mind he always tried to come out on
top he can never be a loser never so
it’s very hard to negotiate and do
anything you had to make him think that
he won even if you were winning it was
the only way to get around and get
something at him so you had to kind of
have that mentality going in with him
but I was very difficult to deal with in
that regard I respected him because he
made no bones about who he was yeah I’m
a gangster I’m a mobster I love this
thing that’s all I am and that’s all I
ever want to be it was public about that
it was public about it and that was it
you know people say he destroyed the
life he didn’t destroy the life
I mean we all destroyed the life you
know the government just won up to us
with their technology with the laws with
the informants they had I remember
reading this what you said when you went
to prison didn’t bother you when he went
to prison he got bullied in prison my
father taught me something they should
Mike when you go into prison remember
three things three words that are gonna
take you make you have an easy go of it
with other guys remember to say please
thank you and excuse me
you know because you bump into somebody
excuse me you know yes somebody please
may I have this you don’t cut in front
of people on a line because everybody
that so many guys rather I should say
that got no respect on the street want
to get all the respect in there because
they’re putting on a show for everybody
else so little silly things become major
things got it so you can’t throw your
weight around now you can’t take any
nonsense but you know people have to
understand you may be the silent type
but don’t mess with me and I’m not gonna
disrespect you don’t disrespect me and
John carried himself differently paid
the price and I know a few guys that did
that so business you wrote this book
I’ll make you an offer you can’t refuse
when I read books you know leave my mark
and write down I made so many marks in
this that was just in it’s a it’s a
small book you know what I’m amazed I
will tell you if you haven’t read this
book you have to read this book it was
in oh nine which social media wasn’t
around I hope we can make this book
become a phenomenon because I think
every entrepreneur salesperson leader
must read this book so make a list of it
we’ll put a link on the bottom for you
to get as well you linked it between
business and the Mafia life that you
went through and you talked a lot of a
lot of different parts of it tell me
about the sit-down which was obviously
very big in the in the business you were
in and sit down to us maybe we go into a
boardroom and you know we’re Center
negotiating with our investors or you
know you know Advisory Board whatever it
is how was sit down like for you guys
well it was it was the basis or the the
format in which we resolved everything I
mean anytime we had a resolve a business
dispute
something more serious we did it at a
sit-down as we called it it’s funny
because my publisher after they read
that chapter they don’t have any more
meetings then the whole place doesn’t
sit down
these were high-level very sophisticated
meetings believe it or not and we had
certain rules you know if you’re a made
guy and you’re at a sit-down you had to
be respectful no matter what the
situation was in other words if I’m a
made guy and I’m arguing something and
I’m lying and you know I’m lying you
can’t call me a liar
if you call me a liar you lose the
argument automatically you have to
figure out a way to make people know
that you’re wrong that this guy is wrong
and I’m right
and the old time was very tactful at
this you know they would try to get you
into a trap or you would just say
something and you’re done it’s all over
so you had to really learn how to
respectfully get your point across and
you had to know the mentality of the
personality of the person going in well
you don’t defeat him these old-timers
were smart you know they were cagey I
had so many of these because it was like
every day in my life when I was in the
gas business I had somebody trying to
take over somebody trying to get in
because you know in New York there’s a
lot of us and we were constantly
engaging with one another on different
matters and I had a big crew so the guys
are my crew got in trouble at it sit
down one other bit was constant business
so you learn how to carry yourself there
and it really helped me in my
negotiation skills in business it really
helped because going in I would figure
out what I wanted what I would settle
for and I would keep you know I learned
one thing it’s always great to let the
other person talk let them talk let them
just keep talking throw out a word that
gets from a little bit and he’ll talk
more and as he’s talking you can kind of
figure out his mentality as personality
what you can get out of them what you
can’t get out of them and it helped me a
lot in negotiating deals later on
and you know sometimes you may be the
smartest person in the room and you
don’t want anybody to know that you just
want to keep quiet like you don’t know
anything let them think they’re smarter
than you and there’s other times when
you’re not the smartest person in the
room but you want people to think you
are so you have to learn how to have
that skill were you a big reader because
what you just said is art of war right
so you know when you’re strong you know
you got to show that you’re weak when
you’re weak you got to act strong so
were you one that’s I mean obviously I
you read Machiavelli Prince that was
kind of the Bible for the family right
but were you always reading no I wasn’t
a big reader honestly I became a reader
in prison did I have a lot to do but no
it’s just something I developed I think
along the way one real talent that
helped me a skill or two number one I
recognized a good deal because I got a
lot of stuff thrown at me and I
recognized what was good and what wasn’t
going to work and that’s important
because you can waste your time with
stuff all day long and secondly was I
always say I knew how to put the right
people in the right place and get them
and motivated them to do the work
properly
my mantra always was at that time do
what you do best and delegate the rest
and then make sure they do the job and
that always worked for me until today
you know there’s things that I’m just
not good at and I don’t even try to do
them I don’t want to be bothered with it
but I’ll get somebody’s gonna do them
see it a whole lot better
oh yeah yeah I had to so who was the
best guy you saw to sit down were you
every time you went there you know he
was gonna be able to sit down you either
learned a lot from him or you knew this
was not gonna be an easy one yeah well
God he was tough I mean you know you
knew going in you had just outsmart him
and let him think he want but you get
out of there with what you really do oh
yeah Wow yeah you know I had to deal
with him
long story showed me sounds silly but it
wasn’t at the time we had a big flea
market a swap meet and there were two
partners there one of them was an
accountant legitimate guy and he was my
guy and there was another guy that he
was partners with that was kind of a
street guy and they couldn’t get along
and the kid was stealing out of the
market so the guy came to me so I threw
the kid out of them
I said you can’t come back you’re done
we’re taking it over well he runs to
John and John says he gets in touch with
me smite this kid belongs to me and half
the market is mine I said John the guy
didn’t even know who you were
he ran to you now all of a sudden you
know him your whole life you know that’s
what happens in that life so I have a
big sit-down and we can’t get along and
I said I told my guys that you’re never
gonna get along with this guy and I’m
never gonna get along with John in this
market I said so we have to do something
either we’re gonna buy him out or he’s
gonna buy us and so I knew at the time
that he would never stand for me buying
him out
never pride yeah pride so I had to I had
to have him buy me out but if I told him
to buy me out he wouldn’t buy me out so
I went in then we sat down at Sir John
I’m buying you out and the first words
it’s like I knew it you don’t buy me out
I bought you out I said no I’m buying it
we went back finally I gave in I said i
buy me out
you know she buys me out you know we get
out we share the money or whatever three
months later the market went down it
closed because I knew what they were
gonna do now who got the better end of
the deal
I don’t know cuz I know what I got who
knows how much he got what he busted the
market out but it worked out better that
way but you know he thought he won you
know he could tell everybody he got me
out of the market and meanwhile I got
what I wanted so that’s how you had to
deal with him
very interesting anybody else that was
very good to sit down that was a
different approach than him
you know I sat down Castellano he was
rough you know he was small business but
you know he’s a boss so he can throw his
weight around a little bit more and you
had to be mindful of that you know but
you had to be respectful and just hold
your ground you know and but he was good
it was really good i sat down with Fat
Tony Salerno was the boss of the
Genovese family I like Tony a lot you
know I really like to really respected
him he was very good the old time was
good younger guys not so much but you
know I had an advantage I mean oh he
said my father you know early on was my
mentor so he kind of he kind of gave me
clues as to how to how to go in and win
and he was good 35 it’s like you were
the LeBron James of the era right I mean
you were the youngest guy I mean it’s 11
years is the difference to the
second-youngest guy and that’s guy
and you’re doing it at 35 sitting with
these powerful guys negotiating Michael
how was compensation figured out okay 40
cents I’m bringing half a billion
gallons six to eight million a week how
is the money spread so the soldiers you
know and then you got how was that
spread is was there a arrangement that
was everyone knew how the numbers will
be a 10% you or five percent or twenty
percent here or would everything vary
and nothing was really a steady number
that would always be there I had my own
formula and I discussed it with my
father and we came to this conclusion if
it was it was legitimate deal I didn’t
have to give anybody anything was my
deal like I had a couple of automobile
dealerships I had a movie I had a lot of
stuff legitimately that was mine so if
you if you started and nobody else
helped you start it’s 100 percent you or
it’s mine and you don’t have to share
any of it no unless I took him at his
upon God it gave me money if God ever no
it was totally my God my legit stuff was
mine the street stuff was different like
when I when I first got involved with
the gas business and I knew what I had I
want to see my boss I said to him I said
jr. I’m on to something this Persico I
said I’m gonna show you more money than
you ever seen before and he said we
don’t do drugs I says not drugs you know
I’m not into that
I said I’m into the gas business I said
but here’s the deal I don’t need you to
do anything but when other families
learn of what we have everybody’s gonna
want to get involved I said as soon as
that happens we’re gonna blow it I said
you’ve got to keep this within the
family I said if we have an argument you
got to make me win you got to make me
win don’t play politics nothing you do
that for me and I’ll show you more money
than you ever saw before and he said
show me and I’m starting to bring him
every week all you had to do is sit back
and ask him for anything right but every
time we had to sit down I had to win now
I’m bringing him two million dollars a
week that buys a lot of loyalty and my
formula was if I brought the deal in and
I didn’t need anything from you you got
25 percent of anything 25 percent goes
back to the family got it if I needed
you in some way like
money from you or whatever that was
different than when maybe you know maybe
of my full partner Elliott everything
was a 25% / 25% was my deal and I was a
captain so there was nobody between me
and you so I gave it to him like if I
was a soldier I’d have to give it to my
captain my captain then would give it to
him and they’d work it out once you’re a
captain you only report up right there’s
nobody directly to the boss you talked
about consigliere right counselor I can
tell you I am where I’m at right now
because I’ve had some amazing advisors
in my life I can’t even we’re talking
about deadly earlier we talked my
certain you know Tom and some of these
other guys that have affected my life
how do you know who is a concealed area
where you can open up with like in your
world that’s a big part of your life in
your business so how do you identify one
and when do you know this is gonna be
the guy that I’m gonna go to the console
area is an official position in our life
there was a coroner made man or four
there’s one kansui area in every family
and the console Gary his official
position is that he is the liaison
between the men and the boss in other
words in that life we’re told this
everybody is equal you may be the boss
but you’re still equal you don’t have
better rights than the soldier we’re all
made guys we’re all equal you just
happen to have a different position
you’re in control but we’re equal you
can’t you can’t violate a soldier’s
right either so if a soldier has a
problem maybe with the boss or something
he’s supposed to go to the console Gary
and the console area straightens it out
with the boss that’s in theory how it is
in practice it doesn’t work that way
because the boss appoints the console
area and if you have a problem with the
boss and you go to the console area
you’re probably going to get killed or
get in trouble so you never said
anything to the console you ever it was
kind of a nonsense position you know and
usually it was it was a guy that the
boss respected that you know he would
want things off of and they discuss
things together and figure out what they
have to do in any situation you didn’t
have an individual considered but I
obviously the guy that I trusted the
most and talked with was my dad if I had
something that I thought I needed advice
with I talked her
I was immediately I was it it’s good to
have that one person there that you
could go to and say look you know
especially my dad cause he knew the life
shoulder sir well what made a very good
conciliate so if you were to say here’s
what makes a very good conciliate what
would you say it was wisdom he had
another life he had it have good
discernment you know uh you know how to
figure things out he should be a cool
tempered guy and he should be sincere
you know and not have his own personal
agenda that’s important but that’s rare
tell me it’s rare in that like there’s
so much politics that goes on there you
really had to be careful what was the
benefit of being a consigliere it’s a
high position you know it’s it’s I mean
the underboss in the country area we’re
kind of equal really really Wow so that
that much of a respected position so
let’s transition to human nature you
know what were what were some of the
things that you learned where you would
go and have a sit-down or you’d meet
with people and you would say I don’t
know if I feel comfortable with this guy
I don’t know if I trust this guy I feel
comfortable trust in this guy was there
a methodology that you eventually put
together or was it still an intuition
type of thing when you were reading
people it was more intuitive I would say
because everybody was so different
obviously if you had experience with
somebody more than once then you know
all right I know I’m up I’m in for with
this guy but it was more intuitive
because again with me I had so many you
know with so many different people and
III pretty well knew you know when you
you start to get some experience in that
life you know right away you know when
somebody’s out to get you and so to
speak you know they’re looking to you
know not make things turn out for you
well you know you just deal with it
because that would have some probably a
person who ends up becoming a boss in
that world you have to be very good in
human nature you know you’ve got to be
able to figure it out and see who’s even
if you have a sit down you’re sinner
you’re looking at this guy saying that
guy’s not on my side this guy’s armed I
said that guy’s in the middle this guy
there was a lot of that probably going
on all the time yeah you know you know
the problem though
with that life you know that life is
like it’s like a wheel turning around
and the guy that’s on the bottom today
can end up being on the top tomorrow and
you always had to be mindful of that so
for instance you know in Gatti’s case
you know he could add a soldier close to
him that was nobody really and then all
of a sudden God he’s the boss and how
this guy becomes somebody so a guy that
you didn’t have much respect for now you
better respect God so because of that
you always tried to treat people the
very way
yeah there is you never know you know
where that guy’s gonna be the next day
or the next week and then he’s got it in
for you and then you got a problem that
is that is very interesting when you
think about that because you that guy
comes up the influence is gonna be with
him right so let’s transition into some
interesting character so Rudy Guiliani
right he keeps coming up right and he
wants to clean house as you want is what
he wants to do Rudy says a guy who wrote
a book man of honor Marathon Man on on
who’s the person thought oh okay so he
writes the book and then he gives the
blueprint to them to know what the rico
game was and he puts that together and
they had the best FBI agent at that time
some guy named Lindley or Lynn you know
that he knew how to go and create an
informants and he goes and figures out
with the Green Reaper the Scarfo I think
so how is that really true that anymore
okay don’t believe any of that
I mean Giuliani says that the reason he
he was in he had a position in
Washington DC in the Department of
Justice and his story was that Joe
Bonanno wrote this book and he being an
italian-american Giuliani was so
insulted by this book because he made
the Mafia out to be like a family like
it was a very legitimate great thing and
he wasn’t so insulted by a Giuliani that
he had a clean house because of it and
that’s why he came to New York and
became the US Attorney there so he could
attack the mob and clean house
I don’t know if I believe that I think
he was an opportunistic guy and being a
US attorney in Manhattan is an extremely
prestigious position and he picked our
guys to go after and build his career at
that point in time and he did a great
job of it I mean let’s face it he has
that repetition till today yeah I mean
he was very capable at what he did the
racketeering the RICO statute had been
on the books for over ten years when
Rudy came in but nobody ever used it
he learned or he saw how to use it
effectively and he started using it
against us and it was designed to be
used against us but nobody ever did it
and it’s an it’s extremely difficult law
to to navigate around I mean I had three
Rico indictments to me I mean I think
it’s an unconstitutional law but it’s a
law and nevertheless it’s on the books
so you live with it but uh you know he
just was determined to make his name on
us guys and he did did you ever have a
one-on-one running with them
I had one well in the courtroom today I
was he indicted me on a big RICO case
and the day of my arraignment I had he
was giving me bail and he came up to me
and he said Frances if I convict you on
this case I’m gonna give you double what
your father got you got to get a hundred
years and that’s the kind of time
they’ll give it told me straight out and
I said Rudy I beat you guys three times
they’re ready let’s go for round four I
told him you know that’s kind of
arrogant back then but uh you know I was
on 12 for several months and I was as a
lead defendant and I was acquitted in
that case some of my code events are
convicted I got 30 years so he I would
have probably got at least 50 if I lose
that case so to say that I won that case
was a blessing as an understand why I’d
still be in prison Wow what do you think
about Rudy today what do you feel like
when you see Rudy today on TV I mean Sun
News was on so when you watch TV and you
see him what how do you how do you look
at him when you you know I don’t know
I’m okay with him I mean it’s not
personal you know I actually saw him one
time he actually he said some good
things about me later on because when I
was walking away from that life most of
the people in government said ads a
fraud
he’s not really walking away and he’s
pulling a scam over the government like
he didn’t a gas business everybody said
that but Rudy said you know what he’s
pretty smart guy and he knows this life
is on the run and I think his walking
away may be genuine
he said that early on with your with you
was within the night yeah it was yeah I
was in the it was in the early nineties
yeah he came and he said that there
interesting for him to say but listen
he’s a very capable guy no question
about it I will tell you this I thought
it was a great mayor in New York yeah
really did he did a lot for that city
without a doubt so I mean I can’t knock
his you know his abilities he was he was
good at what he did he says a big part
of it was something about his dad you
know and his dad said we can’t be
bullied in New York and that was his
inspiration which I’m like wow what and
what a thing to remember for your dad to
instill there you get down much and
drive to want to go against the five
families that’s that that’s got to be a
chip on his shoulder to want to do
something well no I mean it’s a good
narrative but if you’re gonna make your
name in New York you’re gonna make it
two ways you’re going after Wall Street
are you going after the mob that’s it
and he chose both let’s face it I mean
he got Boesky and he got what’s his name
the other big guy oh gosh forget Milken
he got milk in and he got us he got us
all so I mean you know but I’ll tell you
what I owe a lot to him and he doesn’t
even realize this when I was on trial
ayuh Rizzo my guest business partner had
become an informant they were creating
the case against me in the gas business
and I ERISA was the star witness
well when Giuliani found out that they
had this big witness against me and I
was on trial he wanted that witness to
testify against me the problem was I
Rizzo didn’t really know anything about
that case but there was a big dispute I
found out afterwards between East and
district and Giuliani over getting iya
Rizzo to testify because the Eastern
District didn’t want to give him up that
was their guy you know it is the
government anyhow Giuliani’s got a lot
of juice he wins we put our original on
the stand okay and we crucify him up
there destroyed him on the stand
okay jury didn’t believe might get
acquitted what happens now
now the government is scared because I
just beat their main witness against me
in the gas case they’re ready to throw
him out of the witness protection for a
while that’s what gave me the leverage
to negotiate the deal that I got because
they were afraid I was going to beat him
again because I had won four cases now I
know they call John a Teflon down but I
won four cases two and and the Giuliani
case was a big loss for them and if you
look back that was the only case that
ended up in an acquittal he convicted
everybody we were the only ones whether
it was an acquittal so that gave me the
leverage to go in and make the deal in
Eastern District and only I say only get
ten years because that was a bonus back
then I only get ten years they were
given everybody fifty and on you got ten
I got ten that’s amazing compared to
some of the other stories you hear about
I’ll tell you this I believe if I resort
in testifying the Giuliani case and I
beat him yeah they wouldn’t have made
the deal with me they would have taken
me to trial because it was the gas
business they figured they had me Wow
you’re gonna put me away forever
but they got scared how much would you
have gone through thirty five fifty it
was easy easy
fifty minute really yeah Patrick they
were given guys a hundred 150 years Wow
and I’m saying I’m the youngest that
already you’re gonna go on a three
hundred years unbelievable it would have
crucified me when you have time to think
and really analyze the way life go and
you look back and I said man all these
negatives turned into a positive for me
they gave me breaks that I didn’t
realize were happening at that time you
know it’s a big part of my faith when I
talk to people I said you know that the
misery that you’re going through now
might be the blessing for you later on I
said it happened in my life in more than
one situation you know my father
okay betraying me that later broke that
tie that got me out of that life because
everybody I know either dead or in
prison for the rest of their lives
everybody so how is that gonna walk well
I had a major bull’s-eye on my back they
weren’t gonna let me go
no way is unbelievable story right there
like by itself that’s an unbelievable
story so Rudy Guiliani you know will be
fun
it’d be fun to be at a sit-down with you
Rudy and just hearing the conversations
now you’re what huh I would love first
thing I tell Rudy no idea I’m the only
guy to beat you yeah I started off like
that put him right on it so let some
characters you know couple characters
that I’m curious about if you ever had a
running with did you ever have any
business with Roy :
I did how how was it his personality
because you hear Roy Cohen the influence
would trump and you know he was working
with the five families and everybody
trusted him because he wasn’t leaking
any information to anybody you know the
story that he had in the court many
years ago that you read about all the
time so who how was Roy :
he was respected if I’ll tell you my
major Roy Cohn incident I get indicted
in the Giuliani case Roy reaches out to
me go to his office I go see him he said
I heard about the case he says I didn’t
get your indictment squashed a Patrick
nobody gets an indictment squash not in
the federal level not when you’re a
target like me I said okay I just what
do you want
he said I won 250 grand he says and I’ll
make it go away I said I’ll tell you
what I said I’m calculating I got to go
to trial this and that I lose you know
I’m gonna go I said
I’ll put a million dollars in escrow
okay when the indictment is squash take
the whole million because I knew it
wasn’t it happening he’s well you know
it doesn’t work that way
I see look that’s how I work it I some
given you four three times in my four
times of money I said I’m put in escrow
take it squash the indictment you got it
that was the end of that it’s trying to
beat me yeah you know because then they
come up with another issue that’s right
says and we never trusted our lawyers
never try even the lives even ones we
loved we ate it well you know you got he
apparently had a great lawyer but you
Scott you know I’m talking every scholar
I knew Bruce well was he so he also
people didn’t trust them either you
trust him to a point
right because it’s money it’s my fees
per hour and the whole you never you
never ever ever admit it to your lawyer
no matter how much you trust him that
you were guilty was Roy trusted no
really no seriously he was yeah let me
tell you something about their life and
I don’t mean this to be anybody that
wasn’t a made guy it could have been the
president’s or the Pope if you’re not a
made guy you’re a sucker everybody was
on the same level and Roy Cohen if you
could use him you used him what did we
trust him hell no Bruce Cutler we’re
using everything else but you don’t
trust them 100% I mean that’s just the
way we dealt with them that makes sense
so was Joey Gallo really the guide that
you know that killed you know
Joe Joey Gallo was the guy that did it
was it vacinated it wasn’t him
personally so of course he had the yeah
but he was behind that yeah that was
verified everybody know that it was it
was Nicky black as feared of a man as
they paint him out to be no okay you
know I got along well with Nicky I’ll
tell you one story though I went into
his he had a bar and he was brutal guy I
got tired and some guy owed him money
and I went it back with him he said Nick
might come over here and he was breaking
the guys hands and everything like that
just guy out of money you know and I
said Nicky come on man you know I was a
guy gonna pay if you break his hands
game and go to work you know after you
know but but no he wasn’t you gotta you
gotta understand something to you know
bond John Gotti was feared by everybody
John talked a lot but we all were
capable of doing what we had to do you
know we we were only in fear if we did
something wrong and we knew we had to be
afraid but because you throw your chest
out you’re no more capable than I am in
other words if I if I got an order to
kill you I’m gonna kill you I don’t care
who you are I have to otherwise my life
is at stake so we didn’t fear people in
that way but you know there’s people you
don’t want to cause like jr. my boss he
was a treacherous guy I don’t want to
cross him because I
know what’s gonna happen he that bad I
mean you’re like you’re you read about
him is like they call him the snake I
mean he was a he was a treacherous guy I
mean I liked him don’t get me wrong I
got along with him but I knew I knew not
to mess with him so we all had that kind
of a fear you know what I mean don’t
don’t mess because you may walk in the
room and not walk out what made Capone
special that well you know in the in the
community was it anything significant
that because they put you in Capone in
the same league for the most money made
right so listen what they always said
and I believe it to be that the guest
business was the most money that we had
seen since the days of prohibition
now we’re not adjusting for inflation
sure but so I mean he was an earner he
had he caught it lucky like I did I
guess you know I found the gas tax at
that time there was prohibition and he
he found the right deal and he was able
to capitalize on it so when it comes on
to sports do you think you know the
whole P pros story and all these things
you hear about back in the days okay you
think a lot of it still happens today as
far as as far as hey make sure you don’t
win by 11 you know make sure you you
know don’t pitch the game like this you
do this I know what happens a lot in a
high school in the college level do you
think it still happens at the highest
level in the pros I don’t believe so
because the salaries now that these guys
make you know they can afford to lose
they’ll pay their bets
they’ll pay their debts you know back in
my day was different story you know I
bookmakers working for me and we had a
lot of athletes gambling with us and I
remember bookmakers calling me up hey
Mike so-and-so is into me for 25 grand
should I cut him off I said why would
you cut him off all you’re doing is
writing an entry on a piece of paper
I said get leverage let him get into you
for 250 grand and then bring him to me
the higher the loss the more leverage
you got over together you know because
they didn’t have that kind of money back
then now 250 grand had paid off what’s
the big deal nothing no let me look
Michael Jordan is a legendary degenerate
gambler and I’m not calling him
personally I’m just calling his gambling
sure sure yeah the guy can lose a
million dollars a week in one face
yeah you know show I mean there’s him
and there’s some controversy behind him
with the whole what happened to his dad
you remember that whole thing but was it
was it not in and Stern told him to step
away but I mean I don’t know the story
behind it but I I definitely believe
because I was working with the NBA at
that point in time and they told him to
get away
that’s who anyone you definitely believe
100% I believe that and he went and
played baseball for a year just to get
let things die down and then he came
back you know yeah I mean that’s that
was the inside talk at that time I read
both sides and I’m like you know it’s
kind of convincing I just don’t know for
me to say that but you hear some high
credible sources saying that you know
that this took place last few things
here before we wrap up so you got a new
project coming up I literally got an
email a week ago I said hey did you know
Michael got casted for a movie with Tom
Hanks and you know with Katarina
radivoje average from you know Croatia
or you know the movies gonna be in
Croatia it’s a fifty million dollar
budget this all of a sudden you know I
had a movie I had a role in a movie
recently called let there be light with
Kevin Sorbo and the long story short how
that happened the writer is a good
friend of mine he roped me into the and
then he said Mike I want you to play the
part I had no intention of doing it but
I ended up doing it it was an ex-mob guy
who became a pastor big stretch big
stretch for me write those but basically
playing myself but you know I’m involved
with a fella by name of Tom Creole and
Tom is he goes after black money black
money meaning money that’s used to
finance terrorist groups and money
that’s used to go after Christian you
know martyrs I mean to martyr Christians
and he and I kind of working together
and he’s he created a film a game rather
called gosh I forget eva’s something the
game right and they’re creating a movie
out of the game and I think they spoke
to Tom Hanks and he wants to be in it
let me tell you about this movies it’s
it’s a it’s an early project so who
knows if it’ll ever ever come to pass
but yes they want me to play the role
and I said look because of the cause
I’ll be involved with it I’m not an
actor I don’t
tend to be an actor but I guess if the
right thing comes up and it works for
you doing so I do know that you had some
experience with movies in the past that
you you know had somebody that work with
you that you know you funded some movies
a quarter million dollars that led to
another half a million dollars so there
are some stories about what are you
working on nowadays what are some
projects you’re working on nowadays a
couple of things are real exciting hi my
main project right now is I’m doing a
stage show in Las Vegas and it’s the
history of the mob in Las Vegas set to
music and dance it’s a musical Wow
and we’re telling the whole history of
the mob from the 1950s okay when they
got involved and actually created Vegas
right through the 80s when they kind of
were pushed out and I’m gonna narrate it
actually on stage and a little bit of my
story’s gonna be interspersed in that
the way we’ve designed it but it’s a
really cool project I’m very excited
about it’s gonna appear at the Plaza
downtown we have a marketing arrangement
with the mob museum that’s a that’s a
big museum downtown and now Vegas have a
relationship with them there and it’s
going to premiere in May of next year so
I have that and I’ve got two television
projects one is a scripted series called
American royalty and that is the history
of the mob in New York from the 50s
right through the mid 70s and we’re
going to tell the story of the five
families and I’m really excited about
the project cuz I’m with a great company
and they put together a great showrunner
and writer which got you know tremendous
credits and I think that’s gonna go next
year and I’m doing a true-crime
unscripted show that’s called a mafia
democracy and basically the theme of the
show is that we’re going to highlight
cases where the government was complicit
in framing somebody and we’re gonna be
holding the government accountable in
cases like that the first case that
we’re gonna highlight in the first
season is my father’s case Wow we’re
gonna tell that whole story I believe
one in six episode does he know about it
he does and I said to him dad for 50
years you’ve been complaining that
you’ve been framed
I believe he a lot of people believe
you but you never want to talk about it
on camera I said I’m going to do this
show I said it but you have to get on
camera and all you have to say is I was
framed I’m gonna ask you some questions
and you got to cooperate you know what
he says to me these let me ask my lawyer
I said dad you don’t have a lawyer I
gave you a lawyer I said your lawyers
gonna say yes so you got to commit to me
that you’re going to do it so he
committed he said yes that’s cool he’s
never been on account my dad has never
said a word to the press has never been
interviewed so this would be the first
time the oldest made guy in America okay
is finally gonna be on camera and say
some things and I said you don’t have to
admit who you are what you did or what
you were involved in I’m gonna get him
to do that anyway but uh yeah he’s
agreed and III think it’s important you
know again when people understand I’m
not anti-government I’m not anti
law-enforcement I have many friends in
law enforcement my brothers in Christ in
full enforcement and I tell people I
have five daughters when they walk down
the street I expect blunt force them to
spell heck down yeah I’m a friend to law
enforcement but what I don’t like is
when they go rogue and they frame people
and they put people who are in they
destroy lives they have enough weapons
and tools to play by the rules and go
and go and get people the right way and
most good people in law enforcement feel
the same way so I’m not you know I’m not
going against them but to me it’s an
exciting series it’s kind of like you
know John Walsh in America’s Most Wanted
he had a personal stake in this and I’m
gonna host that series it looks like
they wanted to do that and hopefully
that’ll be a success and I’ll have the
right impact and I be honest we Patrick
I don’t think has ever been a time in my
lifetime where a show like this would be
more relevant then dealing with
government it’s not great to I know it’s
not no it’s not and you kind of talked
about in the end of your book you know
if there’s anything I would say when you
buy the book I’ll make you an offer you
can refuse the last chapter really gets
into your beliefs about the government
and politics and all that which I think
it’s very fascinating maybe we can talk
about that on another time but guys
again if you haven’t read the book go
buy the book we’ll put a link on the
bottom Michael thank you so much for
opening Thank You electric appreciation
thank you you
mafia boss outside of alpha point you
were making six to eight milliliter
aspired to be made
I was 17 years old my dad drew a 50 year
prison sentence my best friend was
walking in Philomath but the setup was
bad yeah I’ll be honest what I might
have gotten killed so there’s a lot of
people I sit down with and I meet but
Michael I have to tell you you’re you’re
one of the most fascinating people that
I’ve been looking forward to sitting
down with and you had Nicky eyes and
Mikey franchisee when you hear about the
modern day not even a modern day you
know the movie Godfather everybody has a
poster and you watch the movie and you
hear about Michael Corleone and you
think is there really a character like
that you pretty much are the real-life
Michael Corleone leaper say of that
story right so it’s exciting to be
sitting out with you appreciate you for
making the time and welcoming us to your
place here well thank you and I have
been compared obviously to to Michael I
think it’s a good comparison at times
because Al Pacino he played a terrific
role in that movie yeah and there is a
certain flow that I watch in the movie
with them and I see with you where the
mannerisms it’s amazing how close that
is with the mannerisms that you have on
the way you speak so let’s get right
into it if you don’t know Michael
Franzese II let me give you some stats
here’s the best way to open it up so
you’ll know who we’re sitting down with
so in 1986 Fortune magazine November
10th Fortune magazine there’s an article
saying the 50 biggest mafia bosses right
and and when you go through this the
part in here that’s fascinating to me is
the following they have you down on 18th
place right and then they had John Gotti
at 13 so you look at this and you say
well you’re 18 Gotti is 13 and then you
have Anthony Salerno at first and you
have some of these other name Persico
Carmine Persico you work with very
closely for many years
Salvatore Santoro some of these names
that people know about the part that I
looked at Michael there is not a single
person on this list where there
starts with the number three except for
you gadi was 46
you were 35 so we’re not just talking
about somebody who made it to the high
level of the Colombo family the five
families the Colombo family yourself you
did it at 35 years old how was it being
raised into that environment in that
family I would say I had a good role
model as far as you know my dad being a
real person of substance in that life
and you know I love my father he was he
was everything to me
growing up and you know he was an
important figure there and it’s not that
I tried to emulate him Patrick because I
never thought I would be part of that
life growing up you know I had different
thoughts I was gonna you know I was an
athlete I was going to school I was
going to be a doctor but once I made a
decision to get into that life I had as
far as I was concerned the best guy in
the world to model myself after and that
was my dad I learned a lot from him
directly watching all the things that
was taking place yeah just the way he
carried himself you know the way people
respected him the respect that he had
for my mother and and my sisters and
just the way he carried himself you know
and he was a man’s man and you know from
the time I was five years old my father
drummed it into my head you know Michael
you have to be a man’s man that’s the
standard in life you have to live up to
he in many ways form the person that
that I became later on in life yeah it’s
so much street credit that you can tell
if somebody did something to you and
they knew who your dad was there was a
line like you couldn’t mess with it how
was it being raised in that environment
well it was different you know I always
tell the story I was an athlete and
baseball was really my sport and my dad
would never miss a game no matter what
he was doing mob business legit business
I’d be playing ball he’d show up he’d
always come to the field late and he’d
pull up in a big black Cadillac or a
black Lake and he’d get out of the car
dressed sharp in a suit and he’d always
have five or six guys with him because
he never traveled alone and I’d be up to
bat and they’d walk out on the field the
umpire would take one look at him and
never call strike three on me so I mean
it had his advantages you know being
Sonny Franzese his son you know he he
was just a great father you know and
obviously I knew there was something
different about him but my dad never
spoke about it now
it’s really never so you didn’t really
know fully what was taking place never
from him I knew because he was such a
high-profile figure that we lived in an
environment where law enforcement was
around us all the time and he was under
surveillance from five or six different
agencies from the feds right down to all
the state and locals so they would Park
cause around our house and follow us
wherever we went and you know I viewed
them at that time as the enemy because I
viewed my dad is my hero and so I knew
who he was I obviously read the papers
he had a lot of press and I observed
things but never from his mouth he would
never bring it into the house for in the
house we were just the family that
didn’t exist isn’t that interesting yeah
door six areas I’d like to touch up on
here with you one is story on how that
life was to how the game because you
wrote a book I’ll make you an offer you
cannot refuse the game between what you
have to experience now similar that is
on the corporate side I think there’s a
lot to be learned from the entrepreneurs
who watch this I do how to identify
consigliere I really want to stay on
that because what it means to be a
conciliar II how do you identify that
it’s a very fascinating way you talk
about it in the book human nature you
know how do you read through the BS and
how do you read through some people that
are trying to take advantage of you what
are some of the things that you saw and
then some side questions about
characters and then some fun questions
at the end I will go through so why
don’t we get into it as far as when you
knew and you said I want to get in how
did you get into the whole you know
family I want to become a made man how
did that whole experience take place
with you you know Patrick I never
aspired to be a made man you know I was
on a different path in life but I was 17
years old when my dad drew a 50 year
prison sentence and went off to serve
his federal time and I sat with my dad I
visited him in the federal jail before
they shipped him off to the penitentiary
and he said to me Michael I’m innocent
I didn’t commit this crime it was
alleged to have masterminded a
nationwide string of bank robberies he
said I never knew the witnesses I’m not
a bank robber the witnesses were all
drug addicts junkies and one thing
I knew my dad hated anything to do with
drugs my whole life he preached against
her he would make up stories about drug
addicts to scare me never to take drugs
so I knew he would never bother with
people like this so I believed him and
when he went away joe columbo the boss
of our family who we were close with he
kind of took me under his wing because
my dad was his underboss and I started
to meet a lot more of my dad’s friends
you know and they were influencing me
Mike you know what are you doing going
to school I was a pre-med student at
that time shortly after that you know if
you don’t help you father out he’s gonna
die in prison so I went to see him in
Leavenworth and I said that I’m not
going to school you’re gonna die in here
if I don’t help he didn’t want that I
mean he kind of argued no I want you to
go to school get an education I said dad
it’s too late my mind is made up and he
said to me he said if you’re gonna be on
the street then I want you on the street
the right way in his mind the right way
was to become a member of his life and
he proposed me at that point for
membership into the life and you know
the interesting thing Pat my father even
at that point never told me what the
life was about you know you’re not
supposed to talk about that life with
anybody outside of it and he wouldn’t
violate that policy even with me it’s on
something my dad’s a good soldier he
just said go home somebody would be in
touch with you do whatever you’re told
it was kind of on the job training and
two weeks later I sat with the boss and
you know he ran things down for me and
told me what to expect and for the next
year and a half I was kind of a recruit
where I kind of learned the life had to
do anything I was told to do to prove
myself worthy and then Halloween night
1975 is one it was formally inducted
into that life you remembered vividly
vividly yeah and how was what was that
process like was there ritual was there
an experience you had to go through very
very solemn ceremony very serious six of
us walked into a room individually
towards midnight that night it was a
very secure setting obviously I walked
into a room the boss was seated ahead of
like a horseshoe configuration the
underboss in the console area to his
left and right all of our capo regimes
our captains alongside of them and I
walk down the aisle stood in front of
the boss I held out my hand he took a
knife right here cut my finger some
blood dropped on the floor this is a
blood oath I cupped my hands he took a
picture of a saint Catholic Baltic Cod
put it on
hands eluded a flame it didn’t hurt it
would burn quickly it was just symbolic
and he said tonight Michael Franzese you
are born again and to a new life until
of course I know stir this thing of ours
violate what you know about this life
betray your brothers and you will die
and burn in hell like this Saint is
burning in your hands do you accept yes
I do and that’s it
that’s the ritual that’s wart and sweet
but extremely serious now there was six
of you the six of us we went in
individually you take it alone got it
and then out of these six apparently
you’re the only one that’s alive so all
that they’re all dead
one of them died in natural causes every
one of them were murdered Wow
so why are you still here you know
because if you if you read the story and
you you you you put yourself out there
and it’s not like you went in you ratted
people out or you became an informant
there’s nothing there that people will
say even some of the guys that were
upset that you stepped away they don’t
call you Informer they just say you know
it’s impressive to see that he was able
to make it and we’re proud of them even
some of your enemies are saying good
things about you what how did you how
was that process for you never hear
somebody survive when they leave the
family
how did that happen with you well you
know Patrick I don’t I didn’t have any
grand plan because there’s no blueprint
to walk away from that life not enter a
program and survive and you know I’m
only saying this because it’s a fact I
don’t know of anybody else that has done
that successfully especially at the
level that I reached because I was at a
pretty high level you know I didn’t know
how it was gonna work out I knew that
when I walked away people are gonna be
upset you don’t walk away from that life
you’re not allowed to renounce it and I
had a lot of trouble as a result but you
know for me there’s two sides of this
there’s a spiritual side obviously I’m a
person of faith and the bottom line for
me is I believe God had a different plan
and a purpose for my life and over the
past 20 years I’ve seen more evidence of
that and I’m very secure with that it’s
God’s plan but aside from that you know
I realized that God never throws you
into the fire without preparing you
first
so I spent 20 years in that life at a
very high level and I was a good student
of the life I observed in our why
and I I reached a certain level there so
I knew I had to make changes you know
one of the horrors about that life and I
don’t know if you know this but you
might be in trouble
in serious trouble your best friend
walks you into a room you don’t walk out
again and unfortunately I’ve experienced
that in my life with other people and so
I said okay they’re not gonna walk me
into a room they’re gonna have to work
to get me I move out of New York I would
have never made it in New York I move
way out across the country to California
it’s one thing to try to walk somebody
into the room it’s another thing to send
a hit squad to try to get somebody who
knows what’s going on and I never put a
house in my name no utilities I I never
went to any nightclubs bad place for me
I know who hangs out there somebody sees
me they make a call to New York they
want to be a hero I walk in a parking
lot
boom I’m gone I stop creating patterns
in my life I never went to the same
restaurant every Tuesday night and never
walked my dog every morning at seven
o’clock so if somebody was scoping me
they had a they had a tough time in
figuring out where I was and I was very
disciplined in that very disciplined
because I never sell my former
associates short it was very capable
guys there and then what happened I just
outlasted everybody
I mean who went to jail who got killed
we had a big war in our family in the
early 90s about 13 guys got killed
another 20 or something went to jail for
life and I just outlasted everybody and
you know the major thing for me was that
I never testified against anybody I
didn’t send anybody to prison I didn’t
put anybody in trouble had I done that
it would have been a lot worse
it would have been a lot worse because
some people had personal feelings
against me because when I left you know
look I was making a lot of money a lot
of people were earning with me and when
you shut that off people get upset and
they resented that you know especially
my boss at the time but the fact that he
didn’t hurt anybody over a period of
time that really went
my favor and listen you know there’s no
guarantees you know I’m still careful
when I go to a certain place he’ll feel
today oh yeah really so the level of
paranoia is not gone it’s not paranoia
and I you know it’s not a macho thing I
don’t want you to think that but I just
feel very secure but you know look God
doesn’t tell you to be stupid I can’t go
back to Brooklyn say hey guys I’m moving
back into a book or you know it would be
like thumbing my nose at that face so I
don’t do that but you know listen I’m a
speaker I’m out in front of thousands of
people every week I’ve signed books for
hundreds of people I don’t know who’s on
that book line you know you never know
you know I’m not a kid anymore
you know God has blessed me with with
good things in my life and I think I’ll
be around for a while longer but if not
I mean what could you do I mean that’s
that’s how I look at things it it seems
Michael that you’re very result I mean
when i when when speaking to you there’s
none of it that you’re uncomfortable
which was fascinating but talking about
numbers I don’t know if everybody really
knows what kind of numbers you were
bringing in the numbers I read about you
were making six to eight mil awake six
to eight million per week and you were
selling a half a billion dollars of gas
per month and they said you are the
highest moneymaker mafia boss outside of
Al Capone I mean there’s a lot of people
that are making money with you how did
that happen people think that mob guys
sit around and their social clubs and we
start to target different businesses
well we’re going to take that over I’m
going to do this normally doesn’t happen
that way
what happens is people come to us people
would come to me with all sorts of deals
and it was mostly guys that came inside
their company that had a way to make
some money and they figure they can do
with me I can protect them I can finance
and we have strengths you know all that
and that’s how this happened in the gas
business some guy came to me at a very
small gasoline operation and he said you
know I have a way to defraud the
government out of tax on every gallon of
gasoline was attractive to me because at
that time I didn’t like the government
and you know my targets back then were
always bigger companies I didn’t go
after small the list of companies they
CLA you didn’t go out there no I didn’t
go after so I figure the ones that can
afford it nope
and the government was a huge company so
what happened he had a couple of other
wise guys that were kind of trying to
extort him in his business and I was
able to solve that for him and then we
went into business together and I’ll
tell you how it happened I I put
somebody with him because I didn’t know
him that well and I said I’m gonna put
this fellow with you we’re gonna see
exactly what you got going on and we’ll
try to figure this out well the guy put
with him was a butcher he was my butcher
big guy at a scar across the top of his
said big Vinny we called him so he’s
coming home every Saturday he would
bring meat to my house right
so this Saturday he pulls up and he’s
got this big box on his shoulder and I
said what do you don’t want all that
meat are we having a party or something
I don’t know about it he says hey chief
at a meat I said what is it he’s to come
on in the kitchen we go in the kitchen
he puts the Box down he opens it up
$280,000 he said that’s the first week
steak in the gas business and long story
short he really got my attention at that
point I grew that 280 into at times
almost eight million dollars a week
bring it her week her will get down and
basically you know devised the scheme
built upon what that little germ of an
idea that he had and we were defrauding
the government out of tax on every
gallon of gasoline it was 20 to 40 cents
depending where you were located the
government couldn’t figure it out
we had a very efficient scheme put
together they just couldn’t figure it
out
we were always one step at it and is
this part of a whole Rico story which
was you know what kind of link to that
where corporation after corporation
after corporation and then last one he
would follow bankruptcy and this this
was figured out on how to avoid paying
the taxes which allowed you to kind of
compete against your marketplace so you
had guys that were buying a million
gallons all of us under buying two three
then they’re doing ten million gallons
from you and you’re one of the biggest
vendors to them better we would you’re
not even middle east don’t know from
Texas you know you’re Italian doing this
I had probably 300 gas stations we had
branded and non-branded stations and
what we would do is let’s say it was a
Mobil station I’m just picking that out
because we dealt with a show and we go
to a station say how much you paying for
a gallon of gas it’s not paying a dollar
now how would you like to pay 95 cents
the five cents is big sake boys he said
great I said I’ll tell you what you do
you how many gallant how many loads a
week you’re getting from mobile oh we’re
getting six all right by three from them
by three from us we’ll deliver in the
middle of the night we’ll save you that
by the end of the day they wanted to
deliver they wanted us to service them
ball they didn’t want to buy anything
from opal anymore I said you can’t do
that you got to keep you a brand nobody
can compete with us and if we bought a
couple of gas stations like I remember
one incident there were four gas
stations on the corner big ones we
bought one of them and I went to the
other three and I said now here’s the
deal I said I’m gonna be the lowest guy
in a corner I said if you sell for 95
I’m gonna sell for 92 if you sell from
92 I’m gonna go down to 80 until I put
you all out of business so let’s keep it
at a certain level and we don’t have to
compete told them that so there was a
regulator number that we’re doing with
so no one’s I said if you guys stay at
this number you’ll be fine
if you try to compete with me I’m gonna
knock you out because you can’t compete
with me and pretty soon they were all
buying for me anyway they’ll never be
anything like that again
I don’t know if I read this right I saw
you talk about it where one of the guys
you did business with was this the oil
guy who for eight years tracked
everything that you were doing who was
actually the guy that ended up becoming
the informant that gave me formation
either you know stop the entire
operation yeah he was my partner he’s
passed away now we never had an ill word
and seven years that we were together my
kids called him uncle Larry his kids
called me uncle Michael but the whole
time I was his meal ticket because he
knew if he ever got in trouble that I
was a guy that they would want so he
kept a diary on me he testified against
me in one case a big case would rudy
giuliani and i did me and i was
acquitted so the jury still didn’t
believe him you’re making all the
family’s money now they’re all kind of
happy about you but at the same time you
know you’re there as well what happened
when all of a sudden you were growing a
little too fast what kind of threats did
you start seeing at that point where
there’s some people that were power
people saying wait a minute I don’t like
this guy having this much power yeah you
know what happened I had a couple of
things against me number one I was a
younger guy
and the older guys tend to resent you
you know you’re young you’re doing all
this you’re making all this money and
that comes with the territory he can’t
help that you try to deal with it as
best you can you know you’re not flaming
that fire so to speak but it happens and
then you know I had teamed up with the
Russians I had all the Russian mob guys
in Brighton Beach Brooklyn were all my
partners and they were pretty big crew
and I think it was Newsday publication
out in Long Island had written a story
that I was becoming so powerful I was
gonna break away from the Colombo’s and
start my own family no truth to it
whatsoever was like a fairy tale fiction
made up but it got into people’s heads
and you know my boss started to question
some of the Russian guys and something
started to happen like that and I knew
it so I was on my guard about it you
know my father and I discussed it my dad
was always in and out of jail on parole
so when he was out we talked about these
things but I knew I had to watch myself
you know it comes with the territory
what was the one event that happened
where you’re kind of like listen I got a
started taking a look at what’s going on
with me was it Joey
Columbo story was at the Castellano what
God he did to him or what was it what
you’re like listen I’m gonna start
paying a little bit more attention on
what’s going on the marketplace right
now you know it wasn’t that it was it
was an incident that I had personally
with my boss when they they basically
walked me into that room and really put
me on the hot seat because there was a
story that said that I would I had stole
two billion dollars from the government
and I’m handing a family two million
dollars a week and so I mean I got
questioned you know what I’m saying two
billion dollars Michael I said hey my
answer was when they write about
everybody else it’s a lie when they’re
writing about me all of a sudden it’s
the truth I said come on
man I’m giving you guys all this money
you don’t have to do anything I’m taking
care of everything you know I put nobody
in trouble nobody’s on the line here if
anybody goes down it’s going to be me
and my crew I said well what’s going on
here you know so I got a little upset
about it and then I was talking to the
boss and you don’t lose your head with
the boss but I got al angry and then I
had a
I have told myself down a little bit you
know on it and but that put me on the
alert and I said you know I got to
really watch myself here because you
know mistakes here you pay dearly for in
life and I kind of just like I said put
me really on my guard yeah I’ll be
honest her I thought it was I thought I
might have gotten killed that night you
know did the set up was bad my best
friend was walking me until Roma was a
it was a room in Brooklyn I’ll be honest
with ya you know I had a walk out of the
car and into that house and base that
basement apartment it’s probably a 30
yard walk that was either the longest or
the shortest welcome Wow I mean I as I
speak now I can hear the crickets
chirping and I can remember the smell of
the flowers alone because you know Petro
gallant someone you think you’re gonna
meet your maker and I was in a religious
guy at that point you start to pray and
I was I was nervous I tried not to show
it because I said hey if this is it this
is it you kind of get conditioned to
them yes but uh yeah that was the night
and I didn’t appreciate it years later
now because you have you hear stories
that your father was involved and he
wasn’t involved how do you feel about
that whole situation where was your dad
really kind of saying let’s find out if
Michael is really making this money and
I’m not you know we’re not getting a
piece of it how did you respond to that
at that time I think my dad kind of
threw me under the bus a little bit that
night he you know he went in separately
and I was told that he didn’t defend me
he just kind of backed off and said hey
if my son is stealing he does everything
I don’t do anything I was I’m on parole
he handles everything and knows on bad
terms at that time no we want a great
term well it really hurt you know
because I said man it kind of gave me
really pause because I said you know if
this life can separate father and son
what do we really have here I never said
anything to him because you know again
in that life you learned to keep things
quiet until you were at the right time
and but it really put me on notice that
I got to really be careful I was very
disappointed in him I didn’t it didn’t
change my love for him or anything but I
was extremely I was really disappointed
it really hurt how do you from a moment
like that that’s it that’s a big scar
this is a man that grew up you need to
be a man’s man from five years old you
know he’s shaping you into who you are
and he’s coming through
James he’s always at your game how do
you from that moment trust anybody else
and not believe that you know at some
moment somebody could turn um is that
the faith part that completely changed
it that brought the peace it did you
know I understand my father I know he’s
really a product of that life and I kind
of understood even though I didn’t
appreciate it
I know my dad still loved me it wasn’t
anything like that it’s very hard to
explain to anybody else so I gave my
wife has a real problem with this she
says you know you know how do you
forgive that I used to tell her you
don’t don’t worry about it it’s okay and
you know we have this special bond
between us and I understand the life I’m
a product of who but it was still
disappointing because I would have never
done that to him but I’ll tell you what
I almost thanked him for it now because
I’ll tell you this Patrick I met my wife
two years after that and that’s when I
made the decision to walk away from that
life but if this innocent incident
didn’t happen with my dad I don’t think
I would have ever walked away Wow
I think that was God’s Way of separating
me from this bond or this hold that my
dad had on me so I’d look back and I
said actually it was a good thing
because I don’t think I would have
walked away it’s amazing how you process
it that way I mean I don’t know who can
sit there and go through that and not
think of a different way but the way
you’re processing his demand that did
this to give your life maybe a second
chance type of a situation very
interesting so and now he’s 100 years
old you know you were telling me you
know he had a surgery recently he’s
doing good he’s still sharp he thinks
he’s gonna live a long time which is
great he still talks to me like I’m part
of that life he’s unbelievable
reminiscing and telling old stories that
you remember Michael Oher yes
you know I always say this look my dad
did a lot of rough things in his life so
did I I went to jail for crime that I
was guilty of but you know that
particular crime that he did 38 years in
prison for he was innocent off and I’ll
take that to my grave real awe hundred
percent I investigated that case spoke
to every witness they recanted that
testimony
we gave him why detective test proved
they lied at the trial
the FBI was complicit and turning them
against my dad it was a bad case she was
framed thousand percent people say well
you know he got away with so much that’s
not how our system supposed to work
they have enough tools and weapons the
government to get people the right way
they’re not supposed to do that no
matter what or who you are because
they’re they do it against the bad guys
one day they can do it against the good
guys if it suits them so I always say
tell people look you wouldn’t want my
dad’s life in the last 50 years that man
suffered did 38 years in prison my
sister died of an overdose of drugs
while he was away my brother was a drug
addict my brother actually turned
against my father went into the witness
protection program and testified against
him and got him thrown back in jail my
kid brother I mean my father was
destroyed over there you know my mom
passed away in the last years before she
passed away I can only describe their
relationship as ugly she blamed him for
everything on 33 years without a husband
she blamed him for everything that went
down so I mean the guy’s suffered
tremendously and I have a real heart for
that you know I love my dad and we
patched things up you know it’s amazing
how you know people said I’d never have
a relationship with him again that you
know when I walked away and God has
brought it full circle and I found out
one thing Patrick you have to give
children or children want to love their
parents you got to give him a real
recent not to love their parents
powerful absolutely I’m just thankful
that we have this relationship again so
Sparks restaurants famous for you know
Paul Castellano is where he got shot
outside by John Gotti and that whole
relationship how was possible Castellano
was he really just a money business guy
I knew Paul I didn’t know him well
because she was a boss I was young at
that time but I was in his company quite
a bit and I did have an incident with
him and quite honestly you know the word
on him on the street was not great I
don’t think he had a lot of real friends
on the streets especially any other
families I know in our family they
didn’t talk well about him
more of a business guy you know that
kind of a thing I think people think
that maybe he didn’t earn the position
that he had because he was so close to
car loan
Carlo gave him that spot you know it
went down with Gotti I mean it was it
was either him or Gotti at that point
and John made the move and you know in
our life there’s no election process you
know if you’re gonna take over you’re
gonna take over the hard way
you don’t rival a boss and look for
votes you rival a boss by eliminating
you know look money is always at the
root of just about everything there you
know if you were good you make people
earn people like you that’s the bottom
line you know and if they don’t like it
they’ll tolerate you because you’re
earning with them but he was kind of
known to be a greedy guy and he didn’t
fit the the profile of the real mob boss
in a way you know God he doesn’t make
that move on his own he kind of solicits
people hey what do you think he tries to
get some support that if this would have
happened you know how are people gonna
react so he kind of knew how it was
gonna work out if he took him out every
time you had a running with them you’ve
had obviously many run-ins with them
you’ve done a couple sit downs with them
how was Gaudi like personality-wise why
did he have this you know
larger-than-life story the nowhere near
the kind of money you brought him what
made him that special well you know he
was he fit the Hollywood profile so to
speak and he had the look you had the
mannerisms you know one thing I will say
about John I happen to like him you know
socially a lot of fun we were going a
club give me a lot of fun and he was a
good guy to be around business he didn’t
really understand business and and it
was a nightmare dealing with him in that
respect because one thing about Gotti in
his mind he always tried to come out on
top he can never be a loser never so
it’s very hard to negotiate and do
anything you had to make him think that
he won even if you were winning it was
the only way to get around and get
something at him so you had to kind of
have that mentality going in with him
but I was very difficult to deal with in
that regard I respected him because he
made no bones about who he was yeah I’m
a gangster I’m a mobster I love this
thing that’s all I am and that’s all I
ever want to be it was public about that
it was public about it and that was it
you know people say he destroyed the
life he didn’t destroy the life
I mean we all destroyed the life you
know the government just won up to us
with their technology with the laws with
the informants they had I remember
reading this what you said when you went
to prison didn’t bother you when he went
to prison he got bullied in prison my
father taught me something they should
Mike when you go into prison remember
three things three words that are gonna
take you make you have an easy go of it
with other guys remember to say please
thank you and excuse me
you know because you bump into somebody
excuse me you know yes somebody please
may I have this you don’t cut in front
of people on a line because everybody
that so many guys rather I should say
that got no respect on the street want
to get all the respect in there because
they’re putting on a show for everybody
else so little silly things become major
things got it so you can’t throw your
weight around now you can’t take any
nonsense but you know people have to
understand you may be the silent type
but don’t mess with me and I’m not gonna
disrespect you don’t disrespect me and
John carried himself differently paid
the price and I know a few guys that did
that so business you wrote this book
I’ll make you an offer you can’t refuse
when I read books you know leave my mark
and write down I made so many marks in
this that was just in it’s a it’s a
small book you know what I’m amazed I
will tell you if you haven’t read this
book you have to read this book it was
in oh nine which social media wasn’t
around I hope we can make this book
become a phenomenon because I think
every entrepreneur salesperson leader
must read this book so make a list of it
we’ll put a link on the bottom for you
to get as well you linked it between
business and the Mafia life that you
went through and you talked a lot of a
lot of different parts of it tell me
about the sit-down which was obviously
very big in the in the business you were
in and sit down to us maybe we go into a
boardroom and you know we’re Center
negotiating with our investors or you
know you know Advisory Board whatever it
is how was sit down like for you guys
well it was it was the basis or the the
format in which we resolved everything I
mean anytime we had a resolve a business
dispute
something more serious we did it at a
sit-down as we called it it’s funny
because my publisher after they read
that chapter they don’t have any more
meetings then the whole place doesn’t
sit down
these were high-level very sophisticated
meetings believe it or not and we had
certain rules you know if you’re a made
guy and you’re at a sit-down you had to
be respectful no matter what the
situation was in other words if I’m a
made guy and I’m arguing something and
I’m lying and you know I’m lying you
can’t call me a liar
if you call me a liar you lose the
argument automatically you have to
figure out a way to make people know
that you’re wrong that this guy is wrong
and I’m right
and the old time was very tactful at
this you know they would try to get you
into a trap or you would just say
something and you’re done it’s all over
so you had to really learn how to
respectfully get your point across and
you had to know the mentality of the
personality of the person going in well
you don’t defeat him these old-timers
were smart you know they were cagey I
had so many of these because it was like
every day in my life when I was in the
gas business I had somebody trying to
take over somebody trying to get in
because you know in New York there’s a
lot of us and we were constantly
engaging with one another on different
matters and I had a big crew so the guys
are my crew got in trouble at it sit
down one other bit was constant business
so you learn how to carry yourself there
and it really helped me in my
negotiation skills in business it really
helped because going in I would figure
out what I wanted what I would settle
for and I would keep you know I learned
one thing it’s always great to let the
other person talk let them talk let them
just keep talking throw out a word that
gets from a little bit and he’ll talk
more and as he’s talking you can kind of
figure out his mentality as personality
what you can get out of them what you
can’t get out of them and it helped me a
lot in negotiating deals later on
and you know sometimes you may be the
smartest person in the room and you
don’t want anybody to know that you just
want to keep quiet like you don’t know
anything let them think they’re smarter
than you and there’s other times when
you’re not the smartest person in the
room but you want people to think you
are so you have to learn how to have
that skill were you a big reader because
what you just said is art of war right
so you know when you’re strong you know
you got to show that you’re weak when
you’re weak you got to act strong so
were you one that’s I mean obviously I
you read Machiavelli Prince that was
kind of the Bible for the family right
but were you always reading no I wasn’t
a big reader honestly I became a reader
in prison did I have a lot to do but no
it’s just something I developed I think
along the way one real talent that
helped me a skill or two number one I
recognized a good deal because I got a
lot of stuff thrown at me and I
recognized what was good and what wasn’t
going to work and that’s important
because you can waste your time with
stuff all day long and secondly was I
always say I knew how to put the right
people in the right place and get them
and motivated them to do the work
properly
my mantra always was at that time do
what you do best and delegate the rest
and then make sure they do the job and
that always worked for me until today
you know there’s things that I’m just
not good at and I don’t even try to do
them I don’t want to be bothered with it
but I’ll get somebody’s gonna do them
see it a whole lot better
oh yeah yeah I had to so who was the
best guy you saw to sit down were you
every time you went there you know he
was gonna be able to sit down you either
learned a lot from him or you knew this
was not gonna be an easy one yeah well
God he was tough I mean you know you
knew going in you had just outsmart him
and let him think he want but you get
out of there with what you really do oh
yeah Wow yeah you know I had to deal
with him
long story showed me sounds silly but it
wasn’t at the time we had a big flea
market a swap meet and there were two
partners there one of them was an
accountant legitimate guy and he was my
guy and there was another guy that he
was partners with that was kind of a
street guy and they couldn’t get along
and the kid was stealing out of the
market so the guy came to me so I threw
the kid out of them
I said you can’t come back you’re done
we’re taking it over well he runs to
John and John says he gets in touch with
me smite this kid belongs to me and half
the market is mine I said John the guy
didn’t even know who you were
he ran to you now all of a sudden you
know him your whole life you know that’s
what happens in that life so I have a
big sit-down and we can’t get along and
I said I told my guys that you’re never
gonna get along with this guy and I’m
never gonna get along with John in this
market I said so we have to do something
either we’re gonna buy him out or he’s
gonna buy us and so I knew at the time
that he would never stand for me buying
him out
never pride yeah pride so I had to I had
to have him buy me out but if I told him
to buy me out he wouldn’t buy me out so
I went in then we sat down at Sir John
I’m buying you out and the first words
it’s like I knew it you don’t buy me out
I bought you out I said no I’m buying it
we went back finally I gave in I said i
buy me out
you know she buys me out you know we get
out we share the money or whatever three
months later the market went down it
closed because I knew what they were
gonna do now who got the better end of
the deal
I don’t know cuz I know what I got who
knows how much he got what he busted the
market out but it worked out better that
way but you know he thought he won you
know he could tell everybody he got me
out of the market and meanwhile I got
what I wanted so that’s how you had to
deal with him
very interesting anybody else that was
very good to sit down that was a
different approach than him
you know I sat down Castellano he was
rough you know he was small business but
you know he’s a boss so he can throw his
weight around a little bit more and you
had to be mindful of that you know but
you had to be respectful and just hold
your ground you know and but he was good
it was really good i sat down with Fat
Tony Salerno was the boss of the
Genovese family I like Tony a lot you
know I really like to really respected
him he was very good the old time was
good younger guys not so much but you
know I had an advantage I mean oh he
said my father you know early on was my
mentor so he kind of he kind of gave me
clues as to how to how to go in and win
and he was good 35 it’s like you were
the LeBron James of the era right I mean
you were the youngest guy I mean it’s 11
years is the difference to the
second-youngest guy and that’s guy
and you’re doing it at 35 sitting with
these powerful guys negotiating Michael
how was compensation figured out okay 40
cents I’m bringing half a billion
gallons six to eight million a week how
is the money spread so the soldiers you
know and then you got how was that
spread is was there a arrangement that
was everyone knew how the numbers will
be a 10% you or five percent or twenty
percent here or would everything vary
and nothing was really a steady number
that would always be there I had my own
formula and I discussed it with my
father and we came to this conclusion if
it was it was legitimate deal I didn’t
have to give anybody anything was my
deal like I had a couple of automobile
dealerships I had a movie I had a lot of
stuff legitimately that was mine so if
you if you started and nobody else
helped you start it’s 100 percent you or
it’s mine and you don’t have to share
any of it no unless I took him at his
upon God it gave me money if God ever no
it was totally my God my legit stuff was
mine the street stuff was different like
when I when I first got involved with
the gas business and I knew what I had I
want to see my boss I said to him I said
jr. I’m on to something this Persico I
said I’m gonna show you more money than
you ever seen before and he said we
don’t do drugs I says not drugs you know
I’m not into that
I said I’m into the gas business I said
but here’s the deal I don’t need you to
do anything but when other families
learn of what we have everybody’s gonna
want to get involved I said as soon as
that happens we’re gonna blow it I said
you’ve got to keep this within the
family I said if we have an argument you
got to make me win you got to make me
win don’t play politics nothing you do
that for me and I’ll show you more money
than you ever saw before and he said
show me and I’m starting to bring him
every week all you had to do is sit back
and ask him for anything right but every
time we had to sit down I had to win now
I’m bringing him two million dollars a
week that buys a lot of loyalty and my
formula was if I brought the deal in and
I didn’t need anything from you you got
25 percent of anything 25 percent goes
back to the family got it if I needed
you in some way like
money from you or whatever that was
different than when maybe you know maybe
of my full partner Elliott everything
was a 25% / 25% was my deal and I was a
captain so there was nobody between me
and you so I gave it to him like if I
was a soldier I’d have to give it to my
captain my captain then would give it to
him and they’d work it out once you’re a
captain you only report up right there’s
nobody directly to the boss you talked
about consigliere right counselor I can
tell you I am where I’m at right now
because I’ve had some amazing advisors
in my life I can’t even we’re talking
about deadly earlier we talked my
certain you know Tom and some of these
other guys that have affected my life
how do you know who is a concealed area
where you can open up with like in your
world that’s a big part of your life in
your business so how do you identify one
and when do you know this is gonna be
the guy that I’m gonna go to the console
area is an official position in our life
there was a coroner made man or four
there’s one kansui area in every family
and the console Gary his official
position is that he is the liaison
between the men and the boss in other
words in that life we’re told this
everybody is equal you may be the boss
but you’re still equal you don’t have
better rights than the soldier we’re all
made guys we’re all equal you just
happen to have a different position
you’re in control but we’re equal you
can’t you can’t violate a soldier’s
right either so if a soldier has a
problem maybe with the boss or something
he’s supposed to go to the console Gary
and the console area straightens it out
with the boss that’s in theory how it is
in practice it doesn’t work that way
because the boss appoints the console
area and if you have a problem with the
boss and you go to the console area
you’re probably going to get killed or
get in trouble so you never said
anything to the console you ever it was
kind of a nonsense position you know and
usually it was it was a guy that the
boss respected that you know he would
want things off of and they discuss
things together and figure out what they
have to do in any situation you didn’t
have an individual considered but I
obviously the guy that I trusted the
most and talked with was my dad if I had
something that I thought I needed advice
with I talked her
I was immediately I was it it’s good to
have that one person there that you
could go to and say look you know
especially my dad cause he knew the life
shoulder sir well what made a very good
conciliate so if you were to say here’s
what makes a very good conciliate what
would you say it was wisdom he had
another life he had it have good
discernment you know uh you know how to
figure things out he should be a cool
tempered guy and he should be sincere
you know and not have his own personal
agenda that’s important but that’s rare
tell me it’s rare in that like there’s
so much politics that goes on there you
really had to be careful what was the
benefit of being a consigliere it’s a
high position you know it’s it’s I mean
the underboss in the country area we’re
kind of equal really really Wow so that
that much of a respected position so
let’s transition to human nature you
know what were what were some of the
things that you learned where you would
go and have a sit-down or you’d meet
with people and you would say I don’t
know if I feel comfortable with this guy
I don’t know if I trust this guy I feel
comfortable trust in this guy was there
a methodology that you eventually put
together or was it still an intuition
type of thing when you were reading
people it was more intuitive I would say
because everybody was so different
obviously if you had experience with
somebody more than once then you know
all right I know I’m up I’m in for with
this guy but it was more intuitive
because again with me I had so many you
know with so many different people and
III pretty well knew you know when you
you start to get some experience in that
life you know right away you know when
somebody’s out to get you and so to
speak you know they’re looking to you
know not make things turn out for you
well you know you just deal with it
because that would have some probably a
person who ends up becoming a boss in
that world you have to be very good in
human nature you know you’ve got to be
able to figure it out and see who’s even
if you have a sit down you’re sinner
you’re looking at this guy saying that
guy’s not on my side this guy’s armed I
said that guy’s in the middle this guy
there was a lot of that probably going
on all the time yeah you know you know
the problem though
with that life you know that life is
like it’s like a wheel turning around
and the guy that’s on the bottom today
can end up being on the top tomorrow and
you always had to be mindful of that so
for instance you know in Gatti’s case
you know he could add a soldier close to
him that was nobody really and then all
of a sudden God he’s the boss and how
this guy becomes somebody so a guy that
you didn’t have much respect for now you
better respect God so because of that
you always tried to treat people the
very way
yeah there is you never know you know
where that guy’s gonna be the next day
or the next week and then he’s got it in
for you and then you got a problem that
is that is very interesting when you
think about that because you that guy
comes up the influence is gonna be with
him right so let’s transition into some
interesting character so Rudy Guiliani
right he keeps coming up right and he
wants to clean house as you want is what
he wants to do Rudy says a guy who wrote
a book man of honor Marathon Man on on
who’s the person thought oh okay so he
writes the book and then he gives the
blueprint to them to know what the rico
game was and he puts that together and
they had the best FBI agent at that time
some guy named Lindley or Lynn you know
that he knew how to go and create an
informants and he goes and figures out
with the Green Reaper the Scarfo I think
so how is that really true that anymore
okay don’t believe any of that
I mean Giuliani says that the reason he
he was in he had a position in
Washington DC in the Department of
Justice and his story was that Joe
Bonanno wrote this book and he being an
italian-american Giuliani was so
insulted by this book because he made
the Mafia out to be like a family like
it was a very legitimate great thing and
he wasn’t so insulted by a Giuliani that
he had a clean house because of it and
that’s why he came to New York and
became the US Attorney there so he could
attack the mob and clean house
I don’t know if I believe that I think
he was an opportunistic guy and being a
US attorney in Manhattan is an extremely
prestigious position and he picked our
guys to go after and build his career at
that point in time and he did a great
job of it I mean let’s face it he has
that repetition till today yeah I mean
he was very capable at what he did the
racketeering the RICO statute had been
on the books for over ten years when
Rudy came in but nobody ever used it
he learned or he saw how to use it
effectively and he started using it
against us and it was designed to be
used against us but nobody ever did it
and it’s an it’s extremely difficult law
to to navigate around I mean I had three
Rico indictments to me I mean I think
it’s an unconstitutional law but it’s a
law and nevertheless it’s on the books
so you live with it but uh you know he
just was determined to make his name on
us guys and he did did you ever have a
one-on-one running with them
I had one well in the courtroom today I
was he indicted me on a big RICO case
and the day of my arraignment I had he
was giving me bail and he came up to me
and he said Frances if I convict you on
this case I’m gonna give you double what
your father got you got to get a hundred
years and that’s the kind of time
they’ll give it told me straight out and
I said Rudy I beat you guys three times
they’re ready let’s go for round four I
told him you know that’s kind of
arrogant back then but uh you know I was
on 12 for several months and I was as a
lead defendant and I was acquitted in
that case some of my code events are
convicted I got 30 years so he I would
have probably got at least 50 if I lose
that case so to say that I won that case
was a blessing as an understand why I’d
still be in prison Wow what do you think
about Rudy today what do you feel like
when you see Rudy today on TV I mean Sun
News was on so when you watch TV and you
see him what how do you how do you look
at him when you you know I don’t know
I’m okay with him I mean it’s not
personal you know I actually saw him one
time he actually he said some good
things about me later on because when I
was walking away from that life most of
the people in government said ads a
fraud
he’s not really walking away and he’s
pulling a scam over the government like
he didn’t a gas business everybody said
that but Rudy said you know what he’s
pretty smart guy and he knows this life
is on the run and I think his walking
away may be genuine
he said that early on with your with you
was within the night yeah it was yeah I
was in the it was in the early nineties
yeah he came and he said that there
interesting for him to say but listen
he’s a very capable guy no question
about it I will tell you this I thought
it was a great mayor in New York yeah
really did he did a lot for that city
without a doubt so I mean I can’t knock
his you know his abilities he was he was
good at what he did he says a big part
of it was something about his dad you
know and his dad said we can’t be
bullied in New York and that was his
inspiration which I’m like wow what and
what a thing to remember for your dad to
instill there you get down much and
drive to want to go against the five
families that’s that that’s got to be a
chip on his shoulder to want to do
something well no I mean it’s a good
narrative but if you’re gonna make your
name in New York you’re gonna make it
two ways you’re going after Wall Street
are you going after the mob that’s it
and he chose both let’s face it I mean
he got Boesky and he got what’s his name
the other big guy oh gosh forget Milken
he got milk in and he got us he got us
all so I mean you know but I’ll tell you
what I owe a lot to him and he doesn’t
even realize this when I was on trial
ayuh Rizzo my guest business partner had
become an informant they were creating
the case against me in the gas business
and I ERISA was the star witness
well when Giuliani found out that they
had this big witness against me and I
was on trial he wanted that witness to
testify against me the problem was I
Rizzo didn’t really know anything about
that case but there was a big dispute I
found out afterwards between East and
district and Giuliani over getting iya
Rizzo to testify because the Eastern
District didn’t want to give him up that
was their guy you know it is the
government anyhow Giuliani’s got a lot
of juice he wins we put our original on
the stand okay and we crucify him up
there destroyed him on the stand
okay jury didn’t believe might get
acquitted what happens now
now the government is scared because I
just beat their main witness against me
in the gas case they’re ready to throw
him out of the witness protection for a
while that’s what gave me the leverage
to negotiate the deal that I got because
they were afraid I was going to beat him
again because I had won four cases now I
know they call John a Teflon down but I
won four cases two and and the Giuliani
case was a big loss for them and if you
look back that was the only case that
ended up in an acquittal he convicted
everybody we were the only ones whether
it was an acquittal so that gave me the
leverage to go in and make the deal in
Eastern District and only I say only get
ten years because that was a bonus back
then I only get ten years they were
given everybody fifty and on you got ten
I got ten that’s amazing compared to
some of the other stories you hear about
I’ll tell you this I believe if I resort
in testifying the Giuliani case and I
beat him yeah they wouldn’t have made
the deal with me they would have taken
me to trial because it was the gas
business they figured they had me Wow
you’re gonna put me away forever
but they got scared how much would you
have gone through thirty five fifty it
was easy easy
fifty minute really yeah Patrick they
were given guys a hundred 150 years Wow
and I’m saying I’m the youngest that
already you’re gonna go on a three
hundred years unbelievable it would have
crucified me when you have time to think
and really analyze the way life go and
you look back and I said man all these
negatives turned into a positive for me
they gave me breaks that I didn’t
realize were happening at that time you
know it’s a big part of my faith when I
talk to people I said you know that the
misery that you’re going through now
might be the blessing for you later on I
said it happened in my life in more than
one situation you know my father
okay betraying me that later broke that
tie that got me out of that life because
everybody I know either dead or in
prison for the rest of their lives
everybody so how is that gonna walk well
I had a major bull’s-eye on my back they
weren’t gonna let me go
no way is unbelievable story right there
like by itself that’s an unbelievable
story so Rudy Guiliani you know will be
fun
it’d be fun to be at a sit-down with you
Rudy and just hearing the conversations
now you’re what huh I would love first
thing I tell Rudy no idea I’m the only
guy to beat you yeah I started off like
that put him right on it so let some
characters you know couple characters
that I’m curious about if you ever had a
running with did you ever have any
business with Roy :
I did how how was it his personality
because you hear Roy Cohen the influence
would trump and you know he was working
with the five families and everybody
trusted him because he wasn’t leaking
any information to anybody you know the
story that he had in the court many
years ago that you read about all the
time so who how was Roy :
he was respected if I’ll tell you my
major Roy Cohn incident I get indicted
in the Giuliani case Roy reaches out to
me go to his office I go see him he said
I heard about the case he says I didn’t
get your indictment squashed a Patrick
nobody gets an indictment squash not in
the federal level not when you’re a
target like me I said okay I just what
do you want
he said I won 250 grand he says and I’ll
make it go away I said I’ll tell you
what I said I’m calculating I got to go
to trial this and that I lose you know
I’m gonna go I said
I’ll put a million dollars in escrow
okay when the indictment is squash take
the whole million because I knew it
wasn’t it happening he’s well you know
it doesn’t work that way
I see look that’s how I work it I some
given you four three times in my four
times of money I said I’m put in escrow
take it squash the indictment you got it
that was the end of that it’s trying to
beat me yeah you know because then they
come up with another issue that’s right
says and we never trusted our lawyers
never try even the lives even ones we
loved we ate it well you know you got he
apparently had a great lawyer but you
Scott you know I’m talking every scholar
I knew Bruce well was he so he also
people didn’t trust them either you
trust him to a point
right because it’s money it’s my fees
per hour and the whole you never you
never ever ever admit it to your lawyer
no matter how much you trust him that
you were guilty was Roy trusted no
really no seriously he was yeah let me
tell you something about their life and
I don’t mean this to be anybody that
wasn’t a made guy it could have been the
president’s or the Pope if you’re not a
made guy you’re a sucker everybody was
on the same level and Roy Cohen if you
could use him you used him what did we
trust him hell no Bruce Cutler we’re
using everything else but you don’t
trust them 100% I mean that’s just the
way we dealt with them that makes sense
so was Joey Gallo really the guide that
you know that killed you know
Joe Joey Gallo was the guy that did it
was it vacinated it wasn’t him
personally so of course he had the yeah
but he was behind that yeah that was
verified everybody know that it was it
was Nicky black as feared of a man as
they paint him out to be no okay you
know I got along well with Nicky I’ll
tell you one story though I went into
his he had a bar and he was brutal guy I
got tired and some guy owed him money
and I went it back with him he said Nick
might come over here and he was breaking
the guys hands and everything like that
just guy out of money you know and I
said Nicky come on man you know I was a
guy gonna pay if you break his hands
game and go to work you know after you
know but but no he wasn’t you gotta you
gotta understand something to you know
bond John Gotti was feared by everybody
John talked a lot but we all were
capable of doing what we had to do you
know we we were only in fear if we did
something wrong and we knew we had to be
afraid but because you throw your chest
out you’re no more capable than I am in
other words if I if I got an order to
kill you I’m gonna kill you I don’t care
who you are I have to otherwise my life
is at stake so we didn’t fear people in
that way but you know there’s people you
don’t want to cause like jr. my boss he
was a treacherous guy I don’t want to
cross him because I
know what’s gonna happen he that bad I
mean you’re like you’re you read about
him is like they call him the snake I
mean he was a he was a treacherous guy I
mean I liked him don’t get me wrong I
got along with him but I knew I knew not
to mess with him so we all had that kind
of a fear you know what I mean don’t
don’t mess because you may walk in the
room and not walk out what made Capone
special that well you know in the in the
community was it anything significant
that because they put you in Capone in
the same league for the most money made
right so listen what they always said
and I believe it to be that the guest
business was the most money that we had
seen since the days of prohibition
now we’re not adjusting for inflation
sure but so I mean he was an earner he
had he caught it lucky like I did I
guess you know I found the gas tax at
that time there was prohibition and he
he found the right deal and he was able
to capitalize on it so when it comes on
to sports do you think you know the
whole P pros story and all these things
you hear about back in the days okay you
think a lot of it still happens today as
far as as far as hey make sure you don’t
win by 11 you know make sure you you
know don’t pitch the game like this you
do this I know what happens a lot in a
high school in the college level do you
think it still happens at the highest
level in the pros I don’t believe so
because the salaries now that these guys
make you know they can afford to lose
they’ll pay their bets
they’ll pay their debts you know back in
my day was different story you know I
bookmakers working for me and we had a
lot of athletes gambling with us and I
remember bookmakers calling me up hey
Mike so-and-so is into me for 25 grand
should I cut him off I said why would
you cut him off all you’re doing is
writing an entry on a piece of paper
I said get leverage let him get into you
for 250 grand and then bring him to me
the higher the loss the more leverage
you got over together you know because
they didn’t have that kind of money back
then now 250 grand had paid off what’s
the big deal nothing no let me look
Michael Jordan is a legendary degenerate
gambler and I’m not calling him
personally I’m just calling his gambling
sure sure yeah the guy can lose a
million dollars a week in one face
yeah you know show I mean there’s him
and there’s some controversy behind him
with the whole what happened to his dad
you remember that whole thing but was it
was it not in and Stern told him to step
away but I mean I don’t know the story
behind it but I I definitely believe
because I was working with the NBA at
that point in time and they told him to
get away
that’s who anyone you definitely believe
100% I believe that and he went and
played baseball for a year just to get
let things die down and then he came
back you know yeah I mean that’s that
was the inside talk at that time I read
both sides and I’m like you know it’s
kind of convincing I just don’t know for
me to say that but you hear some high
credible sources saying that you know
that this took place last few things
here before we wrap up so you got a new
project coming up I literally got an
email a week ago I said hey did you know
Michael got casted for a movie with Tom
Hanks and you know with Katarina
radivoje average from you know Croatia
or you know the movies gonna be in
Croatia it’s a fifty million dollar
budget this all of a sudden you know I
had a movie I had a role in a movie
recently called let there be light with
Kevin Sorbo and the long story short how
that happened the writer is a good
friend of mine he roped me into the and
then he said Mike I want you to play the
part I had no intention of doing it but
I ended up doing it it was an ex-mob guy
who became a pastor big stretch big
stretch for me write those but basically
playing myself but you know I’m involved
with a fella by name of Tom Creole and
Tom is he goes after black money black
money meaning money that’s used to
finance terrorist groups and money
that’s used to go after Christian you
know martyrs I mean to martyr Christians
and he and I kind of working together
and he’s he created a film a game rather
called gosh I forget eva’s something the
game right and they’re creating a movie
out of the game and I think they spoke
to Tom Hanks and he wants to be in it
let me tell you about this movies it’s
it’s a it’s an early project so who
knows if it’ll ever ever come to pass
but yes they want me to play the role
and I said look because of the cause
I’ll be involved with it I’m not an
actor I don’t
tend to be an actor but I guess if the
right thing comes up and it works for
you doing so I do know that you had some
experience with movies in the past that
you you know had somebody that work with
you that you know you funded some movies
a quarter million dollars that led to
another half a million dollars so there
are some stories about what are you
working on nowadays what are some
projects you’re working on nowadays a
couple of things are real exciting hi my
main project right now is I’m doing a
stage show in Las Vegas and it’s the
history of the mob in Las Vegas set to
music and dance it’s a musical Wow
and we’re telling the whole history of
the mob from the 1950s okay when they
got involved and actually created Vegas
right through the 80s when they kind of
were pushed out and I’m gonna narrate it
actually on stage and a little bit of my
story’s gonna be interspersed in that
the way we’ve designed it but it’s a
really cool project I’m very excited
about it’s gonna appear at the Plaza
downtown we have a marketing arrangement
with the mob museum that’s a that’s a
big museum downtown and now Vegas have a
relationship with them there and it’s
going to premiere in May of next year so
I have that and I’ve got two television
projects one is a scripted series called
American royalty and that is the history
of the mob in New York from the 50s
right through the mid 70s and we’re
going to tell the story of the five
families and I’m really excited about
the project cuz I’m with a great company
and they put together a great showrunner
and writer which got you know tremendous
credits and I think that’s gonna go next
year and I’m doing a true-crime
unscripted show that’s called a mafia
democracy and basically the theme of the
show is that we’re going to highlight
cases where the government was complicit
in framing somebody and we’re gonna be
holding the government accountable in
cases like that the first case that
we’re gonna highlight in the first
season is my father’s case Wow we’re
gonna tell that whole story I believe
one in six episode does he know about it
he does and I said to him dad for 50
years you’ve been complaining that
you’ve been framed
I believe he a lot of people believe
you but you never want to talk about it
on camera I said I’m going to do this
show I said it but you have to get on
camera and all you have to say is I was
framed I’m gonna ask you some questions
and you got to cooperate you know what
he says to me these let me ask my lawyer
I said dad you don’t have a lawyer I
gave you a lawyer I said your lawyers
gonna say yes so you got to commit to me
that you’re going to do it so he
committed he said yes that’s cool he’s
never been on account my dad has never
said a word to the press has never been
interviewed so this would be the first
time the oldest made guy in America okay
is finally gonna be on camera and say
some things and I said you don’t have to
admit who you are what you did or what
you were involved in I’m gonna get him
to do that anyway but uh yeah he’s
agreed and III think it’s important you
know again when people understand I’m
not anti-government I’m not anti
law-enforcement I have many friends in
law enforcement my brothers in Christ in
full enforcement and I tell people I
have five daughters when they walk down
the street I expect blunt force them to
spell heck down yeah I’m a friend to law
enforcement but what I don’t like is
when they go rogue and they frame people
and they put people who are in they
destroy lives they have enough weapons
and tools to play by the rules and go
and go and get people the right way and
most good people in law enforcement feel
the same way so I’m not you know I’m not
going against them but to me it’s an
exciting series it’s kind of like you
know John Walsh in America’s Most Wanted
he had a personal stake in this and I’m
gonna host that series it looks like
they wanted to do that and hopefully
that’ll be a success and I’ll have the
right impact and I be honest we Patrick
I don’t think has ever been a time in my
lifetime where a show like this would be
more relevant then dealing with
government it’s not great to I know it’s
not no it’s not and you kind of talked
about in the end of your book you know
if there’s anything I would say when you
buy the book I’ll make you an offer you
can refuse the last chapter really gets
into your beliefs about the government
and politics and all that which I think
it’s very fascinating maybe we can talk
about that on another time but guys
again if you haven’t read the book go
buy the book we’ll put a link on the
bottom Michael thank you so much for
opening Thank You electric appreciation
thank you you
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