Goldman Sachs to Backgammon Grand Master Predicts Market Crash

is there any possibility of a crash like
an away tap a crash like the kind where
we went from 11 to 6 or with a down
dropped and everybody was going from a
401k to 200 if people don’t like number
one people don’t like a strong and
powerful some say they’re bullish about
the market a lot of people are afraid of
the market where are you at with
everything that you’re watching yeah I
think the math education here is pretty
sad you know anything to test it has to
be important it’s probably tough to be
Victor Kennedy because all your life you
actually losing to someone who’s worse
than and it’s so it’s very frustrating
and it took me many years actually to to
learn how to move so we’re gonna play a
little if you don’t mind yes if I can
get lucky or not play against the best
one in the world if you don’t know about
me I play backgammon I grew up playing
back in my dad so I told O’Neill Mario
and Gerard I said guys we got to find
the best backgammon player in the world
I want to play back in them because
their math driven so today I got to give
props to the team we didn’t just get any
backgammon player we got there are three
grandmasters in the world he happens to
be one of them the other two are from
Japan from Russia communistic he lived
there for a while so went to civil
engineering from st. Petersburg and
while you worked at Goldman Sachs ranked
number one in America number three in
the world we have a great time together
and that’s the one and only victor
Ashkenazi how are you very good thank
you sir hey nice to meet for coming and
visiting us on very tainment
thank you so as we’re going and playing
the game maybe we can learn a little bit
more about you as well as your
background in the game as well as some
of the market things that’s going on so
prior to talking about your Goldman
Sachs I’d talk about the backgammon game
like for somebody who doesn’t know you
know most people say chess we know chess
it’s popular game what is the difference
between chess and backgammon and what
makes this game so special
chess was my first childhood game back
in Russia you know I played some junior
tournaments and then when I arrived to
New York where age 25 I actually start
playing some chairs in the Time Square
it helped me to learn English because I
didn’t know how to speak in English at
that time but they also noticed it is
another game called backgammon you know
people play next to us and I know just
you know people play for money it’s a
lot of excitement you know around that
game I start learning this and you know
soon I start playing
and recognize that I can play you know a
good game and difference between the
games is just chess is a very short
thing so for example if I play a little
bit better than you
I would probably win nine games out of
ten if not ten out of ten in backgammon
that’s not that’s not the case because
backgammon in backgammon the luck is
involved you know luck is in these two
things it’s called dice you roll the
dice and that’s the number on the dice
so it can be good number can be bad
number and that means the variety you
know to the result so best best player
or a better player not always win the
game similar to the poker so I would say
that that gammon in terms of like a
skill probably somewhere between chess
and poker so it’s so better player win
mode then he would probably win in poker
but of course he win less that he would
win in chess God so poker sematic ago
who’s an amateur and they could get
lucky and go on a streak and beat the
best guys and were like moneymaker did
that’s right I mean all for when he all
four or three when you want two and a
half million dollars it was an
accountant apparently right when he when
I won this he actually didn’t yeah he
didn’t even buy in he won’t do like a
satellite tournament you know he liked
when you’re only fielded dollars to get
into the main event you know to the ten
thousand even then won the whole event
so what’s the idea I mean I play the
game but why don’t you tell the rest
about what is the idea of the game how
does somebody win the game right this is
the original position back a man
actually have few variations if you go
around the world the game called
different you know sometimes it’s called
tavola in greece it called shares
bashing around yeah and they have give
different variations this is like a
westernized variations called backgammon
so we have fifteen checkers this is
their fifteen checkers each this is the
original position the goal is to bring
your checkers and in this position is my
checkers are wide and Patek checkers are
black we’re gonna bring them around the
board and try to get them off old you
know all the board so as soon as you get
all 15 checkers of the port the game is
finished so whoever did it first win the
game that’s it simple okay so we’re
gonna play a little bit if you don’t
mind yes if I can get lucky or not play
against the best one in the world
so first what do we do I roll the dice
on right side you just yes no so you
have a number double five okay double
five all right so is you have to play
five four times yep so we go right here
that’s beautiful so you take your dice
and I remind ya the 40
for anything interesting okay so how
much should this is math and how much of
it is reading the other person because
you know pokers a lot of reading the
other person right but chess could be
more math and not necessarily reading
the opposite how much of this is also
easy and it’s a little bit a little bit
in the middle between the child so in
terms of reading another person why it
matters in backgammon right when I start
playing new player and I realize not
just level of his game but also his
tendencies right so after a few games I
kind of get a feel either he’s too too
too careful you know like like the shoe
thing or he’s very aggressive so they
don’t hit you too much right the plain
said and also the cube is involved I got
cube is multiplies you know the cost of
the game right so if somebody give you
cubed 2 and another person except it
means to be playing for a double stake
and it’s a big part of the skill of the
game and when I notice that player play
very aggressive cube or very passive
cube that changes my behavior over the
board
you know if it’s very aggressive I
probably gonna give him you know a
little later or if person is very
passive I’m gonna be playing much more
aggressively with him
just to maximize the equity of my of my
game so you’re adjusting your just
according to all the time and you’re
saying yes this is a big part very
interesting 5 – so it’s good to make
points inside you know just to generate
good feel good future I can see for a
few few moves moves the perfect Patrick
actually knows what he’s doing and that
makes me think now
see what’s gonna happen here man how did
you do against your father and now my
father gigs my ass but you know I would
say now I’m probably better my father
but it took a while it took on me you
know Middle Eastern man you get to get
they would play drum would you play in
cafes you know because I saw because I
have a lot of friends on Facebook from
Iran and I see how do you play they hold
we have those outside cafes and people
play on the street did you at the same
thing you know we you know I play with
my dad I peel my sister I play with the
family and it gets loud like I said they
were playing Rami and they would play
Rami backgammon I think couple other
games but it was very very competitive
to play the game
good play but I got lucky you didn’t let
you go you’re locking me in there huh Oh
like a lot please usual like this double
five is it it’s called the Joker which
means the best possible number all over
the board yeah and you play it correctly
yeah so so far how many errors have I
made based on actually zero
really yeah interesting so so far it’s a
zero error yeah you play so far
perfectly but then also you know it’s
not the cube start playing that’s what
changes the game yeah we went to give a
cube when we went to take it on when to
pass it and that multiplies the costume
thing got it so right now wouldn’t be a
bad time for me to put the cube up right
because actually actually if you’re this
you’re the perfect time to give you two
yeah I think so listen is your wave head
so called Berets which means you’re much
closer than I am can I still have enough
of a gain to take it which means this
one you know one of the best times to
give it yeah I don’t think it’s that far
Valley that I have on you right now in
terms in terms of the so called pip cow
yeah I know the race I think you have a
big lead but because you have to still
clear this point you probably need a
double to do yeah I do because you’re
gonna have you because you’re probably
not gonna move this year for too long
you’re gonna wait until this is day I’m
gonna wait forever yeah because that’s
gonna be single eventually ups yeah
because this is my chance action okay so
then I have to kind of lock up in case I
get lucky but also you asked me before
that backgammon II know what what part
Locke plays you know it plays a big part
but like I said not as big as in poker
also because it’s not a sure thing like
chess
yeah it makes bagger man so much popular
for for players who like to gamble as
you know it used to be in 80s and 90s
used to be incredibly popular game among
reaching famous in America you have
never you know played but it was a
serious game in the Playboy Mansion also
big-time money people in in Manhattan
all play a game and I still remember
times when you know some of the for you
know finance guys from Wall Street would
come to the clubs and and been like you
know kids with like a hundred thousand
dollars or a million dollar and play
that big of a game million dollar games
and play and play while ten thousand a
point with bunch of the very strong
players who would combine their forces
against them so and also you know if
now you know the game may be lost a
little bit of popularity compared
tinnitus but it’s coming back now a
little bit and still big names play play
this game I mean like – just to name a
few and Pamela Anderson plays back em
anomaly under someplace where yeah
Leonardo DiCaprio and lin-manuel Miranda
Hugh Jackman
just-just-just named Orion plays bass
yeah my voice back em and you gotta play
back and right yeah and I give lessons
to some of the European celebrities you
know over over Skype or exactly just
it’s still game of reaching famous you
know they know no coincidence than the
world championship every year takes
place in Monte Carlo
you know where the money is and where
the partially is you know you know it
depends on where it is in the world
right in some countries like Turkey Iran
Israel everyone can play back you know
it’s not it’s not like a leap game you
know but in America in America why do
you think the game doesn’t have a
tournament like in America as big as
like poker has a big tournament what’s
the difference between this how is it
the fact that it’s eight players and
maybe takes a little longer it’s it’s
actually a great great question first of
all American does have Federation bag
and Federation USB 3f they do own the
American backgammon tool which is a
series of like 16 tournaments you know
around around the year where the in the
states in the state’s big tournaments
yeah yeah they’re like two two in Vegas
in the one in New York not as big as
poker and they and I think again it’s
just my opinion but I think the main
reason is because poker is the game that
every American learned from their
childhood they play in the families they
understand also poker has simpler rules
then back I mean it’s easier to
understand the poker
do you think poker zero understanding
back end yeah because because because
they all play from the childhood I mean
it takes a little bit of movie skill at
least one day on the amateur level to
understand what’s going on over the
board I can see that also also poker is
also you know was built on a lot of
money involved in tournaments nothing
you know and I still think that that
gaming can go through the same path you
think it can’t go to this and big big
part of the poker elite actually comes
from backgammon
I told you like one of my friends like
Eric Seidel you know one of the best
tournament players in poker he used to
be I feel having it he talked about he
played in jail privy knows how to play
backgammon
like wow yes yes too bad
yes he knows how to play so I’m just a
big part of Poker elite you know comes
from backgammon and they know how to
play like they’ll having to name some
other famous poker player now let me ask
you interesting why did you do it that
way did you keep it out so if sixes and
five comes you don’t have to waste our
to watch what you just made no variation
from you so it means that was believable
what you just did yeah I’m saving sixes
yes is so amazing so you are allowing me
to run out of my success versus your so
if I get a 6 out of one I’m screwed you
leave a shot immediately doesn’t mean
you’re gonna lose there but yeah one
lock it up you like if I’d done any
worse okay but that’s my chance yeah I
see what you’re so before we go more
into the game and you gold macabre
really curious about your mind with
Goldman Sachs cuz investments I mean
we’re in the world are so I want to know
what you’re thinking about but walk me
through what it was like for you as you
you know you grew up in Russia you grew
up in a government that was communist
I’m a lot of people never lived in a
communist the country they don’t know
what it is there’s some parts of it that
sounds like it’s noble there’s some
parts of it that doesn’t and now you
live in America you work for Goldman
Sachs which is like the epitome of
capitalism and for me from Iran coming
here what was it like for you growing up
in a communist Ignatian my feeling
always is that it’s two completely
different like almost separate lives you
know that not one is not continuation
yeah you played yeah you’re right
so one is not continuation of another I
and rather it’s a completely separate
life because it’s it’s almost surreal to
think that in the lifetime of one person
you can have you know I grew up in a
communist country when every morning you
start from listening to the political
propaganda even even starting from the
very early age what do you mean by like
we would come to the school right and
they would we would have to line up and
that would be beginning of the school
school day right everybody would line up
in a big big room and some political
propaganda like school dedicated person
would give us overview of the political
day that happened before would say
something like Oh United States you know
just did these bad things again and this
and we we stopped them here it was just
like a pure propaganda thing you know
it’s almost like 1984 you know one
my favorite by the way and they just you
know they try to put certain things in
your mind like brainwash you you know
like it’s just so to make to make some
kind of is a zombie out of you and then
suddenly out of nowhere from the top it
was not even revolution from the bottom
right Soviet Union just collapse on
itself mostly from the top they just
told us in like 1989 that we don’t have
the same country it’s not socialism
anymore it’s suddenly democracy we were
all watching this amazing TV production
which used to be so filtered where
people would go to like a new Congress
would gather and actually discuss the
real issues you know like real democracy
started and it was the biggest hit on TV
that I ever so because the whole country
was watching those political debates and
couldn’t believe that their own you know
eyes that’s actually half and this is
under Gorbachev yes yes it’s 1989 so in
for a few years there was like a very
surreal time we still we still had no
idea what the money is what the real job
is but at least discussions started
about where the country would go and
also the border thought Oh borders open
right we used to not be able to travel
anywhere and suddenly when I’m still
what does that mean though you say so
normally like Rio to somebody that
doesn’t know you will not be able to
travel anywhere you couldn’t live Russia
not just not only live Russia even even
inside Soviet Union you were pretty much
would have a place where you would be
you will have to leave permanently you
can just freely change the city unless
you would find a job and somebody on
Communist Party Party would approve you
move you know movement it was not a free
free movement inside its own country but
let let alone the overseas so yeah you
could not travel freely overseas that
would be impossible and suddenly like
when I was 19 everything changes right
it’s like in the movie you know it’s
impossible to believe our generation my
generation is so so lucky because we got
a taste of this like an old country you
know which had its own like advantages
you know like a education was very good
for example right medicine was free it
was really great so you are saying it
was really good yes because it helped me
right that’s that’s part that’s part why
I see st. Peters yeah that’s why part of
why I succeeded coming here right but in
the same time there was no opportunity
no opportunity to make money no internal
conversations the motivation though I
mean there was no magician so why would
you even go to school though it was it
was like almost like first of all if you
don’t go to school he may be press Q so
there was a system where everybody have
to go through the same process so why is
it so you don’t like it sure is some
that was force yeah that’s what I was
gonna say they fortunately to do a lot
of pretty much everything pretty much
everything was sports would you consider
self at one point you love the system
like you were diehard Russia communism
will you ever myself never but I
was very different all the time you know
I was from a Jewish family and we were
always like they call them dissidents
right which means people who have
different opinion and they were very
small minority of the country who have
those different opinions but we were one
of them right we never believed actually
the Communist Party we never follow them
you know we had relatives in different
countries actually my grandmother was
living in New York somehow and and so we
knew we had a little bit of information
how life could you talk to people was
there phone service to talk no let me
get this a phone call you can’t talk to
anybody in America so you can’t even
find out if America is a great country
no you could send a letter
but everything was filtered right you
could not like really they would open
every letter that would open every
letter that came in yeah and and would
decide whether to give it to you or not
similar like we have still countries
like that right I know yeah I mean for
example I don’t think people fully
understand what should like what that
really means like imagine you can’t like
like think about how much you hate it
when somebody opens your letter like
imagine somewhere that’s a privacy why’d
you open my letter right no no one had
any privacy you know that that that was
not not even in discussion and at least
we we understood the rules of the game
many people didn’t and they pay for that
but this new opportunity arise right
when the new country and everything
start developing very quickly in 89 yeah
yeah I actually remember that I opened
one of the first real estate agents in
Moscow with with to my friends suddenly
we made our first money we couldn’t
believe it we never saw a dollar
suddenly we calculate I remember I was
sitting one of the first banks in Moscow
you know calculating like hundred
thousand dollars with my hand it was
just like it was crazy experience and
then and then my grandmother got you
know ill in New York so I came here to
look after her and in the process you
know in the process was like learning
English trying to see what I can do here
and actually found a job as a computer
programmer another financial company
SunGard I was a trading system brass at
the time they were they actually had
about 60% they handle about 60% of the
Nasdaq trades I worked there for like
seven eight years and in the process
also I finished a master’s degree in NYU
for financials in here yeah at this
point you’re speaking English on Russia
yeah I picked up action began helped me
to pick assemblies on the street I I
don’t I own English like a child in on
the street I never read books I never
like I was just playing backgammon they
curse me and that that was that was my
school I was like brothers but yeah I
was like a Bronx kid you know sitting
over a board you know I’m just like the
only person you know he was your grandma
when he came in here you know and life
development that’s master’s degree from
from NYU actually that’s what opened the
door from me to Goldman you know where I
went through different you know if you a
few different departments and my final
one was for the last four years was the
electronic market making desk you know
the market maker is for people if they
don’t know it that’s the financial
institution that responsible for
providing to site codes for you know if
I’m a market maker for Apple it means
that when you know not phone in for
seven but during the market open I must
provide to side quote usually syllable
wider than the market but the T C
ensures the orderly market liquidity
that’s what market makers do mark makers
do they provide liquidity to the market
in case of like a big market events
there has to be somebody who would be
selling and buying when everybody’s
scared you know that’s what Mark
sometimes they pay a price for that but
big institutions do that to attract
clients they show that it’s a big you
know so you’re dealing with money all
the time for eleven years
well pretty much so going back to Russia
one of the topics your art and I talk
about a lot is our educational system
here that we have in America how and I
remember math being very big in the
Middle East how much it Russia focus on
math I’m curious because I don’t see
math being that big of a thing here in
America as it was tiny release what do
you think about that I agree and that’s
actually I mean it’s bad for America but
it’s blessing for us reason is you know
the math actually one probably single
reason why so many Russians and French
people that I know and people from
Middle East actually do well in America
I have friends who got to the University
here and they were not even like a
specializing in math back and back in
Russia they were just okay but compared
to the average student here they were so
good they were tutoring and in
university would give them free
education just because they help other
students with math yeah I think the math
education here is pretty sad you know it
tests it has to be improved you believe
that because you remember like in Russia
math was like oh it’s a very it’s it’s
every now sometimes you hear people
saying things like yeah I’m just not a
math person you know I’m just not this
yeah I know and and math is really it’s
not like people think of Muffy’s like
such a sophisticated discipline it’s not
it’s really pretty simple key to all
most sophisticated Sciences like physics
like chemistry you know but math is a
key it’s a tool which help you to figure
out figure out things and without having
like a simple tool life is not the same
you know you just you go back to Middle
Ages you know you have to be you know we
have to move forward and that’s what
America is good for they attract all the
people like me and you you know to who
willing to work and who who can help it
to move it forward
do you remember the day you came to
America absolutely so tell me first the
first time actually that’s funny that
you asked because it was September 29
1995 and why I also remember that was
the first time I was flying and I was we
were flying from Moscow through
Amsterdam and it was a two-decade and I
was like amazed like I never saw such
doing before yeah it was actually very
surreal you know just to land what was
your first thing like because I remember
like for me when I came to America my
first naive reaction it was November 28
1990 and we remember vividly I remember
he said September 25th 29 1995 yeah for
me November 20 1990 when I land it okay
the the innocent eyes like I was looking
for Rocky I’m like where’s Sylvester
Stallone really so I know I had no idea
what what to look for really I had no
clue because she at the time when mean
you moved information didn’t flow
through the countries as freely as now
we keep forgetting but the cell phone my
first cell phone actually wasn’t even my
first year in America it was 1999 when I
got my first job in San guard they
actually gave me the job you know Sally
that was my first mobile phone internet
everything you know it’s actually you
know develop over the last 15 20 years
before then information she didn’t flow
as freely between the countries you know
we didn’t know much about the world you
know how sometimes you hear people say
white privileges if you’re born in
America and you’re yd are white
privileges I had this debate three days
ago in Argentina okay with this guy a
good friend of mine Chris and he says
Patrick you know you got to realize
America you know don’t you think there’s
white privileges and I said you know
honestly I think in America there’s
immigrant privileges he says what do you
mean I says I think I have an edge over
you and he says what I mean by that said
I said you don’t realize how amazing
your countries I know how amazing this
system is I know how this is can’t
change my life that’s my words and we
need people I sometimes people forget so
for you you know you’ve seen communism
you’ve seen capitalism in what ways do
you see the form of economy of
capitalism you know in what ways for
yourself from your eyes you because many
people can read about it but you’ve
lived both life and it’s not like you
left Russia when you were 2 years old
absolutely you left when you were you
know in your 20s oh you lived there for
a while it’s not like you don’t know
what the difference is right what are
the biggest differences for you from you
growing up in a place where you can
watch TV phones nothing controlled your
father worked at a company with 5000
employees reporting your father so a
person like that in America would be
making a million dollar income he was
very it was a really poor guy and it’s a
really poor guy and you have no America
what was the biggest difference for you
seeing that it’s just like it’s really a
couple of very simple things you know
which you can only appreciate when you
have background like my new yours right
freedom of travel and opportunity
that’s what really it is you know that’s
what it comes to right and that’s what
socialism or communism takes away from
you that’s why I’m actually little
paranoic you know anytime I hear
socialism new social use more any
socialism I get scared you know I I like
I have a difficult time to support
anything that have now that have the
having this background that have
socialism in it it gives me exactly I’m
just a bond around the things that
socialism takes away from you is the
opportunity to be the person that you
can be both professionally and
personally really to say things that you
want to say to travel and to actually
know the world because we have a very
short life yeah people don’t realize our
life is so so short you know and it’s
only one
I know people some people believe it’s
more than one but I do think it’s one
there’s many things you want to first of
all to be able to reach your potential
right and to see different things and
unless you learn different cultures and
see different places and and have it
this opportunity to reflect there’s all
scholars on you I think it’s very
difficult to you know your limit is very
low you know if you live in your own
small bubble so how does somebody that
hasn’t experienced what you’ve
experienced write what you know we you
lived in Russia you know the difference
how does somebody who’s in America that
thinks we should go to maybe a systems
closer to Europe or all of that stuff
how can they know the difference can
they read a book good move much more
difficult I I think it is difficult when
you not experience yourself I guess I
mean like there are books of course I
mean you can read you know I mean like I
said 1984 is my favorite one but it’s
extreme of course it’s it’s utopia in
this book normal countries don’t go to
that kind of level but we can also
observe right we can people like to
bring some good example of socialism
which is like not Northern Europe like
Denmark or Sweden yes I’ve been to I’m a
world traveler because of backgammon and
there’s a musketry here three days yes
yes Moscow in Spain and Canada and I
have been to Denmark many times I have
good friends from Denmark and Sweden
those two countries that usually been
brought as an example of great things
you know like social is brain actually
people note that you know people who
live there currently no I don’t think
that that happy with the you know the we
can’t their country develop though and
also I think it’s very difficult to
compare small country you know with mono
nation pretty much like Denmark or
Sweden with a big multinational company
you know country like Russia or America
I think we you know we need to develop
our own system also we can look at the
negative examples like Venezuela
actually like Brazil now a little bit
too you know which is a because and
political stuff going on right resident
there looking at yeah yeah which is
which is like way way on the right you
know the guy would I would never vote
for but the reason he actually even came
to picture is because the
dissatisfaction that the country have
with you know with economical
development that been brought by you
know pro socialist governments
and everything but again it’s my
position you know like I said I’m not
political person at all but from from
experience yes i’m yeah i’m always on
capitalism anytime i see somebody
if you want to roll the dice anytime I
see somebody that’s from you know Russia
or any of that environment I ask myself
what was the reasoning for coming do you
like you now like I had a person I was
she was my shopper at the northern North
strim and we would always get along we’d
always talk she would always we were
always fascinated about it by each other
and she had a son that was 24 years old
and I would say so tell me what do you
think about I’m sorry what do you think
about so tell me why why is that a good
night because I was getting close to
four five five because five six versus
because you still a little bit ahead in
the race yeah which means you just you
don’t want to have contact you’re gonna
be just but in safely your checkers
around and move them out I’m looking
more for contact because I was behind
race no cases much closer now so that’s
why it’s actually debatable now you can
actually cover the Aysen and just wait
for my six just to get a shot yourself
it is closer now but you still you still
head in the race so I think it is
correct delivery interest and you should
hold him here yeah it’s not that easy to
run for me so yeah because if you get
you you get a signal sixty five six five
it’s done hands good you’re done but so
six five when you are I know it’s kiddie
no-win good play okay skitty is so I
asked her I said what did you like about
Russia and she says honestly I miss calm
you know me so why do you miss it she
says because there was a big community
aspect to it we would always be together
all the time and nobody was driven by
money so was about family it was about
us spending time together in America
you’re so competitive there you don’t
have any time to spend time with your
family this was the element she said
where I said you know maybe that’s a
good argument to make on that side but
she said yeah and Russia would come on
we’d have food together we’d hang out to
get we go fishing together but then she
would I said so do you not believe in
capitalism
she says I’m mixed Nam in the middle
there are some elements I like because
they kept our family together now my
family’s divided you know it all depends
on the personal story alright always
like life doesn’t have simple answers
click in Russia by the way and in some
of the eastern
– no just in Russian communism or
socialism makes a little bit of a
comeback you know there are some of the
pro socialist parties that that gain
more votes now like even in like pre
Baltic in Latvia you know which used to
be very very anti Soviet okay seems like
I’m gonna kill you now but you know so
it’s normal you should you shouldn’t
take it no so you put the for now
because I think I’m in the race I think
you’re right and I sizable not yeah
because I have a lot of six you have two
shakers all four you see people who play
backgammon they actually can calculate
so cool peeps okay so every every spot
on bag yeah easy people one okay so the
way I count this race right so we have
both to checkers yeah off which means we
have same amount checkers left on the
board right so I would compare you know
our positions geometrically it for
example on the six point this is a six
point right you have three extra shakers
compared to mine and a fifty extra
checkers on the three points which means
I’m up nine peeps three by three is nine
rest looks the same except for this
chicken in this checker another three
people so I’m up twelve peeps that’s a
lot which in this position is a lot it
is alas
so the way I’m looking at is I’m going
24:39 that’s how I’m doing it but you’re
doing it faster the way you did yes
because when you play no one you don’t
want to show that you kinda peeps got it
so we want to do it seamlessly like like
you just havin fun so the way you did it
was seamless
so I have to take it right because if I
don’t take it twelve it’s a big number I
have to get sixes that be six time or 24
you get a five six eleven then we’re
even the chances of that I’m gonna take
the one so you should pass it you should
say that’s named passive yeah you should
say them but we know for the sake of the
game just for fun okay we got let’s play
so six – okay six five
let’s see what happens here six five one
I caught up then I’ll see you right I
think I’m grandma still not you so you
can stop stop it’s nice now so so a part
of it has to be also smack-talking right
because grandmasters are also
professional smack talk yeah we don’t
want to end this game end up like this
you know Habib your so I’m hoping to get
a 3-1 right that’s what I’m hoping for
two one that kind of works
alright so here oh there you know you
missed the point you you should give me
eight cube just before they sell me was
oh now huge favorites right so now these
double four before before you’ll you
give me a because I would not take it
anyway
God why not giving it what what you
risking is you can roll something you
know like taking two chickens all right
and I can get lucky I can roll like that
and win the game you shouldn’t give me
but you wouldn’t even give you the
chance I know would you have taken it or
you would ever take I could not take I
guess like okay I got it
but you want four points so I got four
points okay that was interesting
I’m stopped already you watched this
movie big short and it tells you what’s
going on with the market back in oh wait
you know the oh seven where they’re
selling a paper on the back end and it’s
Nagin again Nina no income no asset no
income no asset noise but it seems like
we’re going back to that a little bit I
see some of the stuff that some of the
bad habits are creating again today you
some say they’re bullish about the
market a lot of people are afraid of the
market where are you at with everything
that you’re watching I’m probably more
on the cautious side right now really so
yeah I mean actually recently myself
I’ve been very aggressively invested for
years including my you know
401ks and everything and I recently I
actually start taking more cautious
approach which doesn’t mean that our
reason is reasonable
I actually weeks within the week so this
is why I made my investment changes yes
part of this meet or no actions of
course November because any political
changes you know being in risk to to the
marketplace
also the market being up for so long
and I know how and also I’m thinking
that the tax changes they’ve been made
and a positive effect for an optimism
for market maybe you know been already
taking into account also you know with
instability around the world you know
with like oil price you know the
consideration middle use the oil prices
a little bit up you know I think maybe
gold gonna do well over I don’t know not
a year but maybe five years because you
know as a safe one of the safety
instruments but yeah I’m just I’m moving
but in bonds now like I said I don’t
know when the you know correction or
crisis may happen but I I do think that
it’s more of a chance of a downside
currently than than the upside or and
when I say currently I mean next year or
next year or two so you think the
midterm elections after it goes that you
say goes favorably in some ways would
you go back in equities again a year
from now could you possibly but I think
now it’s worse to be on the safe side
let me ask you is there any possibility
of a crash like an away tap a crash like
the kind where we went from 11 to 6 you
know with a down dropped and everybody
was going from a 401k to 201 if you
remember those days I think it’s more of
a chance of like a normal-size of
Correction you know I guess Ian five ten
percent but you asked me is it possible
that it would be some crash yes I mean
it is possible I mean we have we have
certain areas where we’re you know like
like a student that for example you know
where we’re certain you know like the
problems are growing doesn’t mean that
they cannot resolve and we don’t know it
all depends like how it all works
together you know if if problem starts
in certain areas like maybe just
magnified by certain events you know God
knows I mean like terrorist acts you
know like a war and middle yeah that’s
the difference you know like I’m saying
and and and then that those you know
things which we used to live with you
know which we used to think you know
kind of think okay it’s normal like its
amount to the student there you know or
car loans or or whatever you know
suddenly start play playing much bigger
role than it was before you know just
because it’s already you know the
marketplace already have issue right and
and like I said you know and when market
goes up for forces you know so so long
and
such a huge up team use in the same time
economy seems like a really decent place
right now terms of like unemployment in
you know and general consumer optimism
though still not enough of the well-paid
jobs you know that’s one of the concerns
right so the most of the Edit jobs are
more like a wallpaper and and it still
doesn’t look very good for me
middle-class because the most of the
jobs that been created you know either
high in pie paying job or low paying job
you know not so much in the middle and I
think United’s you know like economy of
United States still very much depend on
how well the middle class fuel so that
maybe little bit yeah and so it’s
interesting you said a college loan so
you know the part that made the big
short movie such a good book was the
fact that there was a Billy Beane
Moneyball aspect to it I don’t know if
you know who Billy Beane US you may know
him Billy Beane was the predictive
analytics guy in baseball that changed
the face of the game from Oakland A’s
they focused on on-base percentage
rather than homeruns or any of that
stuff so how there was an idea to say
this formula is gonna work we don’t have
to pay the best players
let’s get guys that are on base
percentage right so the part that big
sure that makes it interesting to a guy
like me is they were able to find
markers like the guy goes and looks at
every loan and says this thing is in
default this thing is back twenty months
this pink is back too much so there’s
two different kinds of crashes that one
kind of crashes 9/11 happened I started
off Morgan Stanley Dean Witter on nine
ten a day before 9/11 so that’s the kind
of a crash you wake up in the morning
markets down eight hundred points you
don’t you can’t control that absolutely
that can happen any time to under any
president right the part I’m asking
about a guy like you that’s faced forty
million 250 million trades a day you
know for 11 years with 19 other guys 20
total guys with you together dude is
there a marker that you had a goldman
sachs guy you study to say these are the
three things to look out for that could
completely be a disaster for a big
market crash to happen and if yes are
you aware of any of those things today
or not really today first of all I don’t
have those exact markets as you describe
it I just look overall health of the
economy you know if I see set one things
like like amount of loans for example
you know if if if just like you know I
remember that those
mortgages you know if if it’s just the
standards of like giving mortgages you
know going going lower and lower you
know or the amount of student loans you
know like 1.4 trillion is everything
that can have an effect like it is it is
a bad mark again how important is
compared to the size the economy now
doesn’t seem to be important you know or
or or the one event that would bring the
market down but again like it’s all in
combination and when you have other
factors you know all together so they
may play in a negative role and what I
can say about the financial company and
companies right because I from inside
and I know people been very concerned
about the practices of financial company
and we’ve seen bad stories even even
after the financial crisis not just
Goldman right
Wells Fargo I remember their account in
disaster of course yes yeah was little
bit worn when after them absolutely but
still from inside I can tell you and I
was in the middle of there like a
trading you know which is like you know
it’s many more rules now many more
compliance many more people like
managers never looking in the mirror
much more than they used to it’s no it’s
not just a profit anymore you know they
just they’re much more discreet dealer
yeah yes securities yeah yeah they just
much more responsible and conscious of
the overall health of the coming and and
also they have in mind now whether we do
right thing or wrong thing for client so
client first you know that used to be
said but now it please and go man I
believe that that’s the true mentality
it is within the world that I was part
what the fines dictate that it’s been
enforced more today than maybe 20 years
ago absolutely with that absolutely but
still again you know the excess in any
areas you know like I said like whether
it’s student law or like you know you
have to be like in the middle like I’m
not part of the process like for example
who verify this mortgage loans and
everything seems to me that real estate
prices keep going up at very rapid pace
which could be concerned by itself – it
could be developing another bubble you
know and I don’t know the standards of
the like given mortgages at what level
they are now maybe they needs to be you
know there needs to be revisited if all
the people who get those mortgages
actually you know prudent and and and
can pay them or it’s just been given
just for to grow the business and to get
mobile
and everything that’s always should be
concerned you know and that’s the one of
the drivers for real estate prices
with your permission is it are there any
major concern you have with currently
when you look at the debt that we have
in America right you have any major
concerns you look with how one day how
one day we’re gonna have to pay this 200
trillion dollars back I’m actually more
concerned that it’s gonna be more than
this amount in it because it’s growing
that’s exact so it seems like every
president that we get lately regardless
of which side party he belongs to
actually benefit to the big growth of
this national debt well they say they’re
gonna do the you know like a responsible
fiscal policy or not we still like have
so many promises they make green
campaign that that grow so yeah I think
it’s definitely concerned again if
American economy will will keep growing
and then then the amount of debt
compared to the size of the of the you
know of the economy may not be as
significant but if economy start
contract at any point you know the size
of economy and if it’s unemployment will
start going up all those things will
come together yes it will become a
problem but again I don’t think it’s a
problem right now because that’s how
that’s how American economy been build
and grow you know where that’s the
difference between United States and
Europe right we learned a lot learned
the money I mean we borrow a lot and we
we you know we we grow through the our
you know internal consumers and that
means the debt too but still some areas
needs to be looked at definitely the the
student loans you know I’m getting
really lucky right now I don’t know it’s
watching this this yeah yeah normal how
lucky is the best number you have but
you know and it is a concern of course
so did you guys pay attention did you at
all pay attention to school loans like
is that a marker that Goldman pays
attention to look I’m sure certain
departments yes but again my role you
realize how strange this is yeah you
really well doesn’t mean you’re gonna
win don’t get I’m gonna win because I
don’t get to fight you know I know I’m
not you get 1/6 is the you you’re still
lock this place up so you got look how
you play here well you have to leave a
this shows that I’m not playing that
aggressive on this move but that’s your
best move I know it is I mean if I hit
you it’s because because we’ll be more
if you hit me to be more shot yes yeah
it’s actually your chick your play and
that’s actually one of the sign of the
of the player who grew up playing
backgammon from Middle East usually they
don’t understand the cube but their
checker player is pretty dude have put
this dinner already because I had it no
my god no no I didn’t mean it
particularly yes
no before double six it was still not
you okay so you did fine here but I’m
just saying so your chicken play is
actually very you know it’s it’s it’s
good interesting
thank you you have a good feel for
position I gotta take my dad for it yeah
absolutely
so let me ask you before I roll the dice
are you asking if this guy gets a 6-1
it’s over I’m hoping this guy gets a
three four yeah I know exactly who
you’re all with what I don’t want you to
know is three a head or just one a head
like in a in bag and one like in chess
chess is three or four Yahoo moves okay
here okay you can predict what’s gonna
happen that’s why you cannot be more
than one but I can see my position is
dead here so I don’t have to be like you
know I don’t need to look five head
there is no I’m just curious because you
know you didn’t just go from being a you
know guy that played like you were
interviewed one time and a guy asked you
says I’m so jealous about guys like you
that you go from playing part-time to
all of a sudden become one the best in
the world how do you do that actually
first we’ll all at work – I work on
bagging alright I play like one match
every day at least but I told me I have
students what is a match by the way it’s
a man match it matches up to how many
what difference we didn’t match in money
game money game doesn’t have that
doesn’t have a like end point right it
does we don’t play to like a level and
match does regardless if it’s a five
points 11 points or nine points it does
have an end point that’s the difference
between match and the money game money
game is just open-ended game it’s plus
or minus right you don’t play like match
for example you play till five I can
beat you five four right in a money game
that would mean just plus one god I got
it so let’s apply sit down honey our
trials and rights but exactly money is
job loss and – so money you’re playing
Plus – but if you’re playing – it’s
tournament like the money type or the
tournament – life isn’t always matches
so how many matches do I play to advance
are you if you play like World
Championship in Monte
Carla like he probably would have to win
eight matches to become a world champion
or eight long matches like usually 19
points 19 means 19 to 7 or 19 – 19
so whoever reaches 19 yes 19 sometimes –
18 – so I have to beat eight different
people up to 19 year and never lujah
right you never lose you never lose a
turn around that’s right that’s crazy
this is like it is poker you can you
know it’s like tetanus Grand Slam right
you have to win like seven I think seven
matches so it’s very interesting so what
do you think about my opening move three
– I did is that a decent opening it is
because typically something 2 to 3 here
in money game I would do this again
first of all opening move is not that
important because difference between
them is very small and it’s more like a
style-wise
so this is like a more aggressive play
because it creates more opportunities
for you to make important points but
also it gives me more opportunity to hit
you
so it has upsides and have downsized
like everything in life yeah so 6 for
600 this is why but it’s in the same
time it is a modern game you’re doing it
yes so what’s your opening favorite
thing I’ve read 1/3 average 3 1 3 1 is
the blackest because it’s just a 5 point
is the best point to make so one of the
things I read about you is the fact that
you come back after your games and you
run it up and you study your own do you
really do this like I can you know when
I please see this match even if yes like
like 5 our match 19-point much right
when I’m in a good shape and I really
pay attention to what I was doing
usually I can come back home and without
any recording I can restore every move
that happened from my memory in the game
just players do that too I used to play
chess in my childhood like until I was
15 I used to play Bly you know like a
blindfolded shift so it’s not it’s not
very unusual for for a top players to do
that like if you go like best chess
players in the world they can restore
most of the game of their games to just
it’s a function of the memory yes in the
memory that’s what I do in back and like
every move I can if I really thought
about the moves they always sit in there
I can go back home and they remember all
key positions and I can sometimes go
move by move can you
walk me through the educational system
in Russia so first grade second grade
you know a high school college is it the
format similar to America like 12th
grade and an associate’s degree
bachelor’s master’s PhD house how
similar are we and in what areas is
Russian educational system better than
ours at least the one you you
experienced but that’s like said that
the Russia was my first comment right
the one that I experienced is very
different they do from the one that
exist now today absolutely it is more
westernized absolutely Russia is a very
interesting place it’s it’s one of the
actually it’s very similar to the Europe
in a way that they don’t like America
like if you if you listen to it’s new
yeah
not still actually now it’s probably at
its highest weight a more now than 30
years after goodbye short time since
1989 God now the anti-american rhetoric
is probably its highest but it’s not a
unique place right a lot of places in
the world people don’t like America even
some of our
this is because nobody ever likes number
one is that absolutely PP people don’t
like successful don’t like strong but
why is because you know they they think
that we just you know we just decide for
them or I mean we united state decide
some things for them I said but without
us you you couldn’t do that you don’t
have really army you know like or
serious army to you know to face the
challenges of today but like I said like
you said they just people don’t like
number one people don’t like strong and
powerful and you know that’s that’s the
main reason I think that’s interesting
so America I read a stat that America
has I think it’s 40 million immigrants
and the number I don’t know if you know
there’s on the number two country in the
world for immigration is Russia I had no
idea did you know that number one is in
America I know America’s number one that
would tracks the most people I want to
come live but Russia’s number two at 11
million why is that
ii-i’ll explain it’s not a true
immigration really this is mostly
russian-speaking people you see what
happened to Soviet Union right it used
to be fifteen Republic’s and they
disintegrate right became fifteen
different countries so Russia became
Russia but also in many of those
countries russian-speaking people or
even Russian native people did
moved to those countries because so we
can send them there for like work or
something they just appeared or or start
living in the in the place which became
probably less friendly like a Russian
language for example to Russian culture
and even felt like they are Russia
probably you know in play good role in
them being part of Soviet Union
sometimes took them by force like like
it while Latvia and Estonia those
countries been you know came to Soviet
Union not by the wheel but by the you
know agreement that Stalin you know you
know sign was Hitler in 1940
so not everyone in Soviet Union were
equally happy had to be in the Soviet
Union right so so Russian so Russian
population in those countries after the
distillation of Soviet Union found
itself in not always in the best
situation so they move to new move
sometimes back to Russia from from some
of the Asian republics mataji counts as
an immigrant question is that so that’s
how there can see that that’s that’s
what these numbers come from yeah so
because it’s not like a immigration from
like normal immigration to Europe from
like Africa or Asia no it’s it’s mostly
russian-speaking people I read somewhere
when Reagan was having a conversation
one time with Gorbachev and Gorbachev
said hey what can we do in Russia to
improve things like in America and he
said look everybody in your country
drives the same car everybody in your
country wears the same clothes same
underwear everybody has the same thing
you gotta let people compete and you got
to let him really go at it I mean that
wasn’t happening today but Russia has a
lot of billionaires today there’s a lot
of people making money today now
obviously you know you always hear about
the KGB KGB and all these other things
but it’s amazing what capitalism done to
a country like Russia today it’s
actually really interesting well that
was my second part of my thought that
first on the surface Russia doesn’t like
America a lot in the same time if you
look at the Russian development over the
last ten years especially under Putin by
the way over the last ten years first
moved by the way today that I didn’t
like that you made so tell me what you
would have gone 5-1 oh this is a great
point I would not just like open up like
that because you give tell them what you
got to eat you and and to make point so
you would have done what 185 yeah even
five down God you would’ve kept this low
here with the Saiyan but I think this
point is important to get it okay this
is just too too too risky god oh god
yeah so in the same time you know Russia
does everything like America you know it
hit like a day yes it hates it on the
surface but the educational system is
actually copied of them they even have
now new system which is very similar to
SAT after the school Soviet Union never
had it and Russians hate it but they
have it so every student after the
school now have to take like SAT type of
a test have you ever faced off anybody
where you said this guy’s is there any
like you know how Kobe goes against you
know some of the players in the LeBron
faces Kevin Durant is there anybody in
your world where you say this guy I face
the guy is a beast is there anyone in
your world that’s super competitive at
you just to be honest with you usually
that’s how I’m viewed especially in the
money game right those two Japanese guys
they’re very strong tournament players
you know my but in terms of money I have
a heavy stigma of like being feared like
be like I have almost no gun blame like
not nobody really plays me in the world
like like I used to nobody I mean there
are a couple of guys I’m sure that would
you know you always can find the play
but normally yes that just there is a
few factor you know that that plays into
that it’s a little bit like you know
like a Casper of inches when when people
just like aside from the normal strength
that you have it is also some some like
some mind yeah some some you know like
maybe killer instinct you know maybe
some something something of that nature
who was Victor in school were you an
athlete were you competitor fearless
evident cool feel sexually well I was
actually a little bit chubby I was
fighting my extra weight through the
whole school but in same time I was I
was actually very good at sports
surprisingly I play all kind of sports I
was it like a semi-professional saw
soccer soccer player after the school I
grew up like in like a probably around
around eighth grade before that like I
said I was a little chubby nose little
shy interest but I still did sports and
like a ping-pong game pretty good were
you super competitive
yeah always yes and just to like when I
play my first gaming chairs I was like
14 was regional junior tournament in
Russia of course I lost and it took like
five hours to play the game
and I couldn’t leave it I was just
sitting over over the board and actually
the tears were going through my face it
took me many years actually to to learn
how to lose it’s actually very very
difficult I still don’t wanna know how
to’s I want to win but at least I can
understand the complexity of life now
and and the fact and I accept the fact
that I’m not gonna win 100% of the time
does that bother you are you like maybe
its agent right I don’t know no it’s not
I know I know I do you accept let me put
it to you this for your April force my
dad’s April 10th I get along with all
April I hire April and October babies
too because to me April people are areas
I can always count on April babies I
don’t know what it is every single
competitors yeah they’re perfectionist
there’s a part of it it’s perfectionist
do you think that’s what makes you be
obsessed about studying your trends when
you go home and you look at it and say
what was the flaw was it luck was it
something I could’ve done that one play
I should like the my five one that way
that I did and you caught my five when
you said I should have played this one I
do it all the time like so you know it
all the time I couldn’t sleep if I lose
I put I go to bed and I I put the match
like I don’t have to put the board right
I can do much so I put I put so and I go
through the place and and and and sunset
okay I have to check like I I wake up I
put it on the computer display display
check this play you know because because
my mind cannot go to rest but in terms
of like competitive yeah I mean that’s
part which like it’s also you know you
can become good or best through
different ways right we look at the
champions in different sports or
different occupations and and they they
all different right you don’t have to be
like the same way you don’t have to be
like people like to say oh you’re super
competitive but it’s just my way right
doesn’t mean that everybody I’ve seen
different people very unethical and calm
and this still we are very good alright
so whatever works for you right
whatever drives you whatever because it
has to be interesting in the end of the
day that’s the key right we’re all
children inside like if it shouldn’t be
born I agree with you I totally agree
with write it but there is such child
light you have that child like
competitors which I hate I hate I hate
losing I still do I still do I don’t cry
anymore hope
not every time do you ever have you ever
played a match where you said I play
perfect you ever say I played a perfect
minute many times
seriously Harlan that was actually one
that I have a friend you know feel he’s
uh you know he’s a backgammon teacher to
it he would he would get a kick you know
that I’m talking about him here but he
says it’s probably tough to be Victor
Eskenazi because all your life
you actually losing to someone who’s
worse than you and it’s so it’s very
frustrating that’s very frustrating you
know like you just like you know you
don’t really lose to somebody better
than you you always lose do you think
you know who with Kobe would say and to
and to learn to deal with this that’s
that’s that’s that’s eternal work to
become a good loser I’m still not by the
way but I’m much if you ask anybody they
would say Victor now and Victor ten
years ago is difference with two
different people really yeah I can I can
shake the hand I can congratulate I can
put even pose for you wouldn’t not
always although I can be I can be just
cursing you know like really sometimes
you see louder than and poker Phil
Hellmuth is a little bit like oh yeah
but he’s a brat I mean here he is a brat
poker brat yeah III don’t think Mac chef
could be to that extent but yeah not
notice loud and not as often what do you
think about the move I made would you
have played the other way to to to
protect this rather than this yeah it’s
actually it’s a good it’s a good move
you made I probably would a little bit
prefer this because it covers more of it
more everything you know it gives me six
but I’m not hundred percent sure this is
good one because it hold it hold it were
concerned about protecting this I
understand ya know both of them if you
can right but yes I like it because this
one is actually so your first choice
would have been the other way yes to
lock up the three here but I think
they’re close okay I wouldn’t criticize
you for this move gosh it the only how
many games you play see three the only
really play that I hated that you made
five on one I think that was bad but
make sense everything else is just it’s
debatable it worse and by the way see if
you made my play double six would not go
from here that would be closed kara NE
six you’re right and I would have
protected this one as well that was a
mistake then no I mean again I am a year
old different number right just so I’m
lose sleep over that screw-up that I
just made screw this yeah you are you
believe I made that mistake
are you perfectionist you look like one
I am as well as well so how did you
learn finally how to enjoy it how did
you finally learn how to enjoy the game
because you know sometimes when you are
because because you seem like the type
of guy that you’re not gonna do anything
you know to just wing it to just half I
feel like you’re the guy that if you’re
gonna say I’m gonna learn this game I’m
learning it to become the best of the
best in this right so there is a part of
madness in it where you know you go
through a phase of not enjoying it like
some people like what is wrong with you
you’re freaking killing everybody
why can’t you to enjoy it but you still
can’t and what did you have to are you
still not there or are you finally
enjoying I always did because like my
sport side is not only side I have like
every human being I’m a complex person
right to different people is different
things right some people think it’s a
math game some people think it’s
something else to meet some music use it
why is it music yes because because I
feel like there is a certain harmony
within backgammon position right and and
with this harmony is you know when I
play when I play position and it feels
harmonical every move usually it’s also
a right move too it’s very interesting
now so it does have an internal rhythm
and internal harmony the backgammon game
that I really enjoy and that’s what
actually makes me good player because
I’m not very mathematical in terms of
like not just mathematical I don’t
remember all kind of positions my
approach my approach to the game is more
like I developed this internal tool
which you can call harmonical to when I
look at the new position for me the new
number that tool helps me to to find the
best best solution at that particular
moment and I think this is the best way
to interesting way to put it it’s like
you put it becomes musical because it
sounds perfect when you play a great
game absolutely yes sister yeah and
usually when it looks good or it feels
good it’s actually a good move as well
like this one you see what you just did
that’s very interesting instead of
playing safe yeah you just guess because
because because making the four point is
very big right it eliminates this gap in
my position in which you can jump I even
like you don’t have much of a board
I can even tolerate you to hit me on the
ACE more than you jump into the for
point in jumping out I want to close it
so and I when I close it I want to start
from the best point I can make which is
the four point in this position in the
same time I want to hit you I don’t want
you to roll freely that’s why I hit you
lose
so the basic is if you’re gonna have
each anyone the one’s locked up the most
importance your least important is here
that’s very basic
yeah for from the base also another
point is when your opponent don’t have
many points made in here for you points
toward you can be you can be playing
more aggressively advise me because you
don’t have many points yeah easy for me
to come in you get right now 66% open
right I can’t yeah you calculate it that
way or no no I just know that it’s more
than 80% for me to come to come in in
this board you know if you hit so it’s
not a big deal
got it well let’s see what we’re gonna
do here we got the three but the six
unlock there should I gotta come here
still you have a good position I’m not
gonna cube this because of this to
chicken stock there so I have to still
do something with this guy hopefully you
know make the three point like this you
know what a beautiful wait a minute you
got hit I didn’t hit you that’s right
yeah okay that’s four that was my best
time why because because this is a
problem I’m stuck there yeah I’m not
afraid of this now yeah so now it’s big
cube so now you’re putting that I’m
gonna accept it I’m gonna say meaning
I’m gonna give you the game yeah because
no way to see you yeah five on six is 18
a reason is not only percentage of the
game Z I win but also sell of Gammons so
almost every game that I win here gonna
be multiplying explain to me explain to
me what you mean so for instance I roll
I don’t hit you roll you go here right
is that what you’re gonna do to me next
no just I give you Q right yeah what I’m
saying is the reason why you can’t
accept this – the – you have to say pass
it’s because majority of the games that
I win here is white like let’s say I win
course I win like 70s I do
almost every game I win is a gammon so
it’s not gonna be just two points it’s
gonna be four that’s why it makes it
more dangerous for you to take this cube
right so let’s say I will here 75% of
the games
yeah but more than 60% of those 75 will
be gammas on four so you’re gonna lose
not two but four got it that’s why it’s
a big part got it that was interesting
yeah that that’s what you call an
ass-whooping right
that’s a good way of putting it right
there oh no not this particular game I
just want one game out of here
yeah but it’s a beautiful game it has a
lot of variety is actually very very
complicated underestimate the people
underestimate come complexity of these
people think it’s a whole lot it’s
actually not it’s all skilled I like
this game because there’s Matt to it I
couldn’t get into your chest
yeah to me this is just just as 240s you
have to study too much you have to know
the openings you know just a lot of work
here you can just play and develop your
style is there something is there is
there a number that you definitely don’t
want to get when you open up the game
like do you have a worse you know some
players in like you 210
Doyle loves a 210 to go play against
people I don’t is it anything worth for
you opening ups like I hate getting a
5-1 no I mean it’s objectively the worst
number what is the worst number to start
off probably five one yeah okay but but
again it is what it is so I don’t have
like favor my favorite and my least
favorite would be based on my chances
after that is there for just equity so
you won see one because it makes the
fire-god for two is the second one
because it’s makes the 4.6 one makes the
bar it’s gonna be number three I think I
read somewhere you said for two months
you didn’t play you just watched
everybody play mine yeah did you did you
watch somebody play where you kind of
remember that person who’s a regular
person they have a regular job they’re
not rich they’re just somebody that
makes you know sixty thousand dollars
here but they were amazing at the game
do you remember somebody like that
because for me when I think about this
game I think about somebody that’s good
with math I think as somebody that’s
good with study and trends all that
other stuff
did you know somebody that was very good
at it but they never made it to a
different level in their life backgammon
is is very interesting world right it
attracts certain personalities which you
probably not gonna meet in any other
parts of life like I know people who
used to be homeless living on the on the
state of New York and then ended up on
the cover of New Yorker right
just from bagging right and just did you
know somebody yeah and then teaching
billionaires you know and then I know
people from like Japan my close friend
the geography the two-time world
champion cancer survivor in her Furies
she’s like a national hero now in Japan
or all big newspapers huge huge star and
almost like anti-japanese room
like very independent very like jab
backgammon gives you access to certain
people which you never I guarantee
you’re never gonna meet in other parts
of life why I don’t know it just brings
the characters
I don’t know how interesting it just
brings the characters you know like
people which have a different views of
the world or not the life and enjoy
different things not necessarily just
normal jobs you know like go to the
office and then just like be dry 9 to 5
so in terms of like not reaching their
potential in backgammon I think I think
people who work in New York they mostly
look at backgammon just for pie you know
like a fun some passion you know they
don’t try to make professional yeah
because I think what I’m like you know
to be good at this you’re good in maths
you could get so many different jobs
that have to do with numbers and make
this money why don’t you why don’t you
figure out a way to money they do most
of them date yes okay so the answer is
in the game of backgammon those who
become very good they find a way to
monetize that actually brings me to
story that you just what do you send him
and they used to be experiment in broker
house named Sasuke Hana one of their
main brokers was a backgammon player
strong player but also began an
aficionado so he believed he had a
theory that people and you know how
trading desks in big firms hire people
right it’s mostly Ivy League’s
MIT Harvard you know mhm is not ugly but
you know those type of universities and
and this guy actually hired gamblers
from New York States mostly backgammon
money players who never had a job before
really he took four or five of them at
the time and put them against Harvard
graduates in in trading in option string
and and of course these guys killed
Garber people just click killed and the
reason is its its ability to to
recognize the opportunity when because
bag what bag and and poker does it
actually all it does is just you you
recognize the opportunity to gamble or
or to to to take risk right when to take
it is calculated risk right it’s not a
gamble it’s not casino
you don’t play ultimate you actually
become a kind of a casino right you just
you you try to find opportunity where
you are
favorite so-called arbitrage you know
that’s what you do in bagging that’s
give a cube you know that’s when you
feel the weakness of your opponent yes
and also psychologically too you know
when maybe he doesn’t feel that well
maybe he’s prone to make a mistake at
this time
that’s what backgammon mining game is
you know and that’s very close to
trading that’s why those people were
very successful in training some of them
stayed in the industry actually some of
them become pretty big in the financial
world you know some some moved you know
what a great idea they like to do that
is because recruiting backgammon players
yeah pretty much hustlers from the
street people who may not have like
never had any formal job you know don’t
know what the suit is you know how to
come to office you know how to how to
you know talk to other people but they
know how to gamble
what’s this company’s name SAS Kahana
such and where’s it based out of it I
think they’re in Philadelphia now they
still trading options Wow like I said
some of the gamblers actually made their
way up to through the Wall Street
leaders and actually when I got to
Goldman my first interview not the goal
but at the trading desk first interview
was with a guy is it from Norway by the
way Goldman is incredibly international
now within my 25 man group actually the
only reason he hired me was because I
was back Amman like a star because his
himself it was a poker poker player you
were already a star at that time yeah
yeah I was at Goldman but I was doing
compliance actually kind of opposite
right I was actually making trade in his
life
that’s defense that’s measuring stuff
yes but that’s all I could see when you
come as an immigrant to the new country
you don’t always have all the choices in
the world right it’s difficult enough
when you grow out here to to make it to
the trading desk in Goldman I mean very
few can actually make it you know you
have to be fortunate in some way or
another I was fortunate for this guy who
recognized this you know who wants to
have this you know recognition of of the
risk and opportunity and believe in that
because he was himself a poker player
and he just like he valued that that
element in people and he gave the
opportunity for years ago and
amazing but then he left the company so
with this whole dice game right I mean
you know the dice there’s they say
there’s people that are professional
with dice I had a friend here a Richard
Turner they call him the card mechanic
so he knows how to manipulate cards
right and you look at him the way he
shuffles you would have been like it’s
impossible what he does do you know guys
that you play with that are also you
know magicians when it comes down to the
dice and is that can you read it do you
see people that know how to do that yeah
first of all I wouldn’t call them
magicians I would call them crooks but
yes I actually had a couple of personal
stories one of them was in Monte Carlo
beginning of like two thousand five or
six I was one of the newbies there came
and start playing for money and actually
beat a couple of guys probably wrong
guys at the time for money and then some
other guy just bumped into me in the end
of in a very posh hotel and start
talking talking to me in Russian like he
knows me and say oh let’s play
backgammon for money and I was already
like a great way I thought you know why
would you challenge me you know like
everybody is scared and you suddenly
like jump into me
I said okay let’s play so we play like
200 euro point or something and and I
was like losing and a few thousand then
my friend like came and sit down stop
watching the game for like 10 mins he
just told me
stop playing just paid this guy and
let’s go you know just say why I mean
like I obviously see that guy’s playing
worse than me and gets very lucky right
so I just paid and we went he said this
is this is a cheater and he’s the
cheater is like like that dies mechanic
he said he he just the way again the way
the cheating been done this firm to my
knowledge over the years it was a couple
of cheating incidents in New York over
the years but it was also involved all
the things that come with bag Amman
which is like it was a guy’s board
especially made with some magnets very
happy birthday and his dice also had
magnets which will would be more heavier
on like a six for example right when he
has to roll it and he would exchange the
dice during the game you know they were
standing with normal dice win a lot of
money and and somehow it was proved that
he was cheating so he didn’t get so the
idea is another way you roll it the idea
is all a magnet
well that’s just one of the things what
are the things I’ve seen because I
travel around the world night as we
discussed and even probably like 50 plus
countries playing backgammon right and
everybody is different like like for
example I play with some guys in in
Georgia for money and what I know it is
this during the match before important
roles they would drop in their dice to
the floor right and and I’ve had to I
had to look down so when I was looking
up again you know they would roll the
number and was always lucky number
enough luck for example when they need
to hit me right very important you know
shot and then people told me that this
is like a professional cheating
professionals what they do is when they
drop in the dice and they picking up the
from the floor and put it back into the
cup
they put only one die back into the cup
and another one they fixing with their
with their finger and when the roll you
know just roll your eyes busy being down
right when you woke up the roll already
but they’re all only one die and second
one they just put on the work very quick
but the hook because it requires a lot
of skill thank you for that yeah
but did they put the number which they
need to hit you like then amazing yeah
so but again I play for 20-plus years
right and I’ve heard like two stories
like that and it is not extra minute and
people consume usually with internet
play both for poker and backgammon
you know collusion or people can break
into the programs somehow like cheat you
know like be there been a couple of
stories with poker backgammon they’d
they concerned that people use computer
to help them play because you can ask
computer for best decision computers and
backgammon you know there are programs
exist that play on the level of the best
players in the world similar in chess
and just actually in they’re even
stronger so if you have computer help
you know you have you gain in a huge
advantage so I think it’s your turn so
let me ask you how old were you when the
the wall were you were you in Russia
when the wall with them yes yes I was 21
time and I got old you before you know
during our print it just it’s just
amazing set of events you really leave
second life
within the same life the
the changes that we went through was so
drastic it was completely different
country almost overnight right it was
from very like steak almost North Korea
type of a country we went to the place
where we actually had a real parliament
real Congress where people would discuss
in issues and they will translate it
live on on every TV channel thank you
because I’m ahead in the race
probably still you’re definitely
probably still small take because I
don’t have much aboard but if you don’t
if you pass it I wouldn’t blame you too
so and and and people would look not
take it so I’m taking it I put it here
or what I do you put it in chat you can
cash it so you have opportunity to give
it at 4:00 in your time you know punish
me for my stupidity but so so and
suddenly you have this you know you have
these people on TV discussing real
issues and you feel real democracy that
was really the once-in-a-lifetime
experience like imagine imagine have a
c-span channel right which shows like a
Congress discussions and every everybody
in the country would be watching it like
like like something like some pop show
like like some concept you know like
something of like very very hot that was
the situation so it Union for a couple
of years because because no but nobody
was exposed before to the head
experience to have a life open
discussion about anything so everybody
was watch and everybody was different
and it was also the new opportunity so
actually within the year after the
building wall for you know fall I opened
the company real estate company in
Moscow with two young partners we didn’t
know what we were doing but was
interesting was they realize you guys
got money yeah first first time you see
any dollars you know we were incredibly
poor everyone and I remember we made our
first deal to like you know sell some
apartment and we got enough money to
travel to overseas which was another
amazing thing nobody could do that
before and we we flew 11 hours to the
Canadian Islands which was in Spain
and I felt as a teach as a rock failure
probably never did you know it wasn’t
because you never saw any money before
you just it felt to me like like it’s a
limitless opportunity like like I can do
anything like I’m a king of the world
there yes there though I had still had
nothing relatively nothing but compared
to what we had before or what we were
before the opportunity you know that’s
that’s what changed what do you think is
tougher you think is tougher for regime
to go from communism to capitalism or
from capitalism to communism which one
is tougher to do I wouldn’t even put it
directly like that like a communism mm
but I would say it’s always more
difficult to improve things then and
it’s easy to make things to me to make
the gosh I think it’s so cool up things
what a powerful no it is it is like we
see many examples people get complacent
think oh we’re so rich you know we reach
is cut I mean we have great examples I
mean look at GM General Motors biggest
company in the world in the seventies
and eighties like look like they would
dominate in the world yeah
within what like 25 years been cut like
nothing completely nothing you know need
to be saved you know and they felt like
they were on the top of the world within
one generation you know and it’s so easy
because we live during unprecedented
times in terms of how quickly things
change we live during such information
revolution in all this new companies
bring things that happen during our life
timing changes my opinion probably never
happened during any of the lifetimes of
previous generations and that’s what
makes makes us different amazing numbers
that’s an amazing number if you weren’t
gonna get that I was gonna give you
really that would be too optimistic to
give a cube behind in the race but it’s
amazing numbering that was that if the
game is over right now I mean it’s very
difficult you doing this as a pass
unless you double sixes so is there is
there any way that a regular person can
play against you online do you play on
any apps anyway they just saw with
France and for fun of grilled green grid
gammon greet grid gammon great GRE EAP
Gannon yes and that’s an app yeah yeah
and I I give lessons there too when I
when I talk to students we sometimes
play the match and we would be on the
FaceTime or Skype
and just discussed discussed so somebody
wants to get a hold you what website do
they go to
it’s victor Ashkenazi that come you know
surprisingly my my my mind my first and
last name in one in one word and yes and
you can you can inquire about lessons
there and then just general background
questions victor Ashkenazi calm let me
ask you what I just did yeah I went here
I would be radically the same thing you
wouldn’t do this is later a little bit
in the game again remember what I said
BS you play more aggressive when you’re
bored is better than an opponent so in
this situation my board is bad was I
made a five point or later you have
nothing I guess much more dangerous for
you to get hit now anytime I hit you I
am gonna start you tell me the
importance of this why this why is this
so important why is 1/3 the most
important because 5 because 5 y 5 point
is the most important if closest to 6
and it builds your prime from the top so
so after that every point the highest
point more important list so you can
make more than this so if I make this
point instead of 5 for example you know
my position is like a Swiss cheese you
know it just if has so many holes here
here I’m building so-called prime yeah
right crime is the points in a row in
bag Amica so I have opportunity to build
this point will be ready three four
point yeah and hopefully I can I can
hold some checkers of you behind my
prime but if I build low points it
creates a lot of holes in the position
too easy to come in you know you don’t
hold you don’t hold this position well
so what’s the second best thing to start
off with 5 then 4 yeah – 4 then 3 5
absolutely yes
so you win six one six one actually
little better than 35 debar point six
one this point six six six six you
cannot start with because what everybody
roll one die first right but yeah six
six actually great not that beliefs is
amazing number because you build life
and the bar for got it so any any
doubles puzzle so you just watch us play
backgammon with each other by the way we
haven’t even finished this next game I’m
curious on how this game ends if you
want to find out more about him click on
a link below if you haven’t watched the
interview to sit down with Phil Hellmuth
click on a link here I’d love to see
these guys get connected as well cuz I
know you you play poker as well and he
plays back and it’d be interesting if we
do a private poker game
together with the three of us but to go
watch this video again thank you so much
for joining us your value teaming and
being willing to play in
amateur backgammon thanks for your time
I had amazing time it’s probably tough
to be Victor Eskenazi because all your
life you actually losing to someone who
is worse than you and it’s so it’s very frustrating