between then and a next call where the
commander-in-chief makes the call what
happens during that time I think the
biggest thing was 846 on the morning of
September 11th I was the commissioner he
said a plane just did tower one I looked
at the top of the building and I could
see the damage and I thought that’s no
small plane I’ve been in gun battles I’d
been stabbed I’ve been shot at I’m gonna
die suffocating in this room because I
can’t breathe
there is no greater Police Department in
the world than the NYPD
your personality right now I’m sitting
with you you seem very chill you see
Mary you know he’s but is that the
personality back then this is right
after he came back from Canada how would
so today we are sitting down with
Bernard Kerik who is known as the former
Commissioner of NYPD I believe it was a
three and a half billion dollar budget
that he was managing 55,000 employees
reporting to him and he was the
commissioner the correction department
in New York which both of them are the
biggest organizations in America and
sake in prison and I’m talking about
police department he was running it
during that time until he had some
challenges he faced and we’re gonna talk
about some of that stuff he’s also got a
new book that just came out recently
from jail or to jail he’s also a former
New York Times bestseller for another
book he wrote years ago so with that
being said Bernard care thank you for
being a guest on Barry tainment
thank you sir I mean that’s a pretty
interesting resume you have there you
know when when I when I’ve been around
yeah when I read up on you and I go
through and the more I’m diggin you got
recognized you came up with this team
system that Harvard recognized as a
accountability system on how you were
able to organize that a lot of different
organizations used it and you get credit
for coming out with that you’ve had over
30 awards that was given to you for
different works that you’ve done I mean
there’s so many different things and
then at the same time the time were you
standing right next to President Bush
and they’re talking about you becoming
who you become and in the fall right
after that part so prior to let’s go
back to the beginning on that’s what
this whole thing got started who was
Bernard Kerik at 16 years old if I was
in high school with you who were you if
you were in high school with me you’d
never know me because I didn’t I didn’t
go to high school that much you know I
had a pretty rough upbringing I was
abandoned by my mother eight three three
and a half she was beaten to death and
murdered when I was nine we moved out of
Newark it was a rough place and moved to
Patterson which was equally as rough was
just smaller and more compact I went to
East Side High School which became
famous or I should say infamous in the
major motion-picture leaned on me with
Morgan Freeman mm-hm I think there were
probably about 25-30 white kids in the
school at the time out of 1700 I was one
of them that was a rough place to go to
school and it really wasn’t an education
you learned how to survive you learn how
to fight ironically for me fortunately I
got involved in the martial arts when I
was 13
I got my black belt my first thing we
black belt when I was 16 and I realized
school wasn’t uh wasn’t gonna do it it
wasn’t a learning institution center it
was a fighting center so for me the best
thing to do was get out I quit high
school at 16 for the next year year and
a half I worked for a moving company
until I realized that humping furniture
for a lifetime is not the way to go and
at 18 years old I joined the military
and that’s where my career sort of took
off so it was a combination of the
martial arts where I started to learn
respect and discipline and physically
you know I was in phenomenal shape then
I went the military I learned structure
and I learned more discipline and I
found my niche in the military I became
a military police officer I spent three
years in the military sometime down at
Fort Bragg in North Carolina I spent
some time in Korea got out went to work
for a federal task force and then some
of the guys that that I actually met at
Fort Bragg
they were retiring out of the military
out of the Special Forces units and I
get a call one day to work in Saudi
Arabian this is like 1978 so this is a
time long before anybody in this country
know anything about terrorism or you
know Muslims or Islam or or any of that
I remember going home and telling my
father I’m going to Saudi Arabia to work
and my father sitting at the dining room
table and he looks at me goes Arabia he
goes you know I saw a movie one time
like Lawrence of Arabia I think it’s hot
deer and that’s about as much as anybody
knew like nobody had a clue so I went to
Saudi I went on an 18-month contract I
wound up staying two and a half years I
came back to the US went to work as a
cop it down in North Carolina then moved
up to New Jersey to a Sheriff’s
Department started working there and lo
and behold I went back to Saudi Arabia
again from 1978 to 1980 I was there the
first time who were you representing in
Saudi Arabia
why were you a cop in in Jersey you
going back
as a contractor no the first time I went
as a contractor for an American firm I
was in the Security Division for the
firm they were actually building the
King Khalid military city upon the
Kuwaiti border the second time I went
back I was the chief of investigations
for the Royal Family’s Hospital in
Riyadh I was young I was 27 years old 28
years old and that was from 82 to 84 and
ironically you know it’s kind of weird
as I look back today because the king of
Saudi Arabia today King Salman
mm-hmm was actually at that time the
governor of Riyadh and I used to hang
out with his the head of his security
detail who ironically was also the
executioner you know he would behead
people on Friday so you know he’d go
through his thing and then we go to like
we’d go eat did you actually see any of
it or no you didn’t see I’ve seen many
I’ve seen I used to remember the numbers
I think I’ve seen about 22 beheadings
seen six dismemberments in one stoning
what does that do to your brain to you I
mean how does it get you to a point
where it’s kind of like yeah the first
time is it’s pretty shocking you know
when you see it the first time it’s
almost like in your head you’re watching
this and you’re thinking okay that’s
like their son you know it’s like a joke
like that’s not real or whatever but
it’s it’s cold it’s crude it’s rough I
stayed to another two years 18 months at
that time came back went to work back in
the Sheriff’s Department that I took a
leave of absence from I became warden of
that County Jail I was 30 years old I
guess I took over the jail this is
Jersey this Jersey say County New Jersey
Passaic County Jail it was in Paterson
where I’d sort of grown up and then in
1986 I filed an application with the
NYPD from the time I was young when I
became an MP I wanted to be in new york
city cop but I was I was traveling I was
in Saudi Arabia I was in North Carolina
I was in Jersey I’m back in Saudi Arabia
now the NYPD calls and they said listen
dude
this is it night in July 1986 is your
class if you don’t get in that class
because of my age you’re done you’re
never gonna go now keep in mind I had I
had a gold shield eight stars at a white
shirt I had a car I was the chief I was
30 years old and the warden of the
Passaic County Jail one of the biggest
jobs in New Jersey and I had to make a
decision
am I gonna leave am I gonna you know
give this up give this chief chops up a
chief’s job mm-hmm and and take the job
in the NYPD as a rookie cop and I did
what why did you know look it was a
lifelong dream and to me there’s no
greater Police Department in the world
than the NYPD you know when you watch
movies you know if it’s if it’s not the
LAPD you know it’s LAPD’s a great
department however nothing compares to
this city and you know from the time I
was younger that’s all I wanted to do so
now realize from the time you were
really are you talking like high school
time when you like high school I used to
see the cops I I write about this in my
first book where I used to see these
cops you know most of the time they were
slapping me around telling me go home or
you know get off the street or something
from the time I was young I wanted to be
a cop the more I learned the more I was
exposed to the world there’s no bigger
no better than the NYPD and that’s what
I wanted so in July of 1986 I took off
the gold shield took off the Stars and a
white shirt I went to the Brooklyn
Technical Institute right over here in
Brooklyn Ed Koch was there raised my
right hand I got sworn in and I went
back to Jersey and resigned soon as I
got sworn he and I went back to Jersey
everything make sure was real make sure
it was real all my colleagues all my
friends you know they pretty much said
you’re nuts like to be completely and
did you take a big kid with salary I
mean look at 50% pay 50% 50% pay cut it
was I had a couple times in your career
I’ve done it a couple times and
everybody’s laughed when I’ve done it
and it’s been hard it was a hardship but
it’s always worked out for the best
in the end you know you follow your
dream you follow you know you follow
what’s in your heart and you know you’ll
be better off for it I think so from
there now you have this job you’re NYPD
you’ve wanted to be a cop you’ve been
looking forward to being an NYPD what
happens next
yeah I go to the academy I’m probably
one of the oldest guys in the Academy
I’m 31 years old at the time most of the
kids coming under job they’re 20 21 22
my first assignment I’m in Brooklyn for
six months my training and then I get
assigned right here right down the
street Midtown south precinct
I had a foot-post on West 42nd between
7th and 8th Avenue one block and that
one block all day long I don’t care what
tour you were doing and you were doing a
day’s afternoons or Midnight’s doesn’t
make any difference for eight hours the
entire time you were on that block you
ran your ass off you no man with a gun
robbery in progress you know a rape in a
movie theater somebody jumped off the
building somebody threw somebody on
their train you name it while for eight
hours a day keep in mind this is 1987-88
this was the crack the time of the crack
epidemic it was a bad bad place in Times
Square was booming 24 hours a day so if
you want if you like this job if you
wanted that type of action you couldn’t
be in a better spot and as you wanted it
if you want it what you to kind of
wanted it I wanted this I love I left
the chief’s job to take – oh you wanted
the action I wanted that’s what I wanted
that’s what I came for and that’s what I
got so I was in Midtown south for about
a year and a half in December of 1988 I
applied for narcotics and I wanted a
detective shield I wanted a New York
City detective shield the coveted gold
shield and I was told by everybody
fastest way to get a detective shield is
go to narcotics as an undercover you can
go to get a detective shield in a
precinct squad you can go to a robbery
enhancement unit you can go to narcotics
as an investigator but if you do all
those there’s a track that gets you
they’re probably within three to five
years if you go as an undercover you get
your shield in 18 months and the reason
that that happens is because being an
undercover most of the time you have no
vest you have no gun your sole function
in life is to put yourself in harm’s way
to buy drugs and didn’t you at that time
have earrings you had you wore leather
pants you had long wooden what was it
because I read some part what you want
well I still have the holes at one time
I had like seven you know diamonds and a
gold loop in my ear I had a big goatee I
had a big beard I had hair down I had
hair period but it was at the time it
was down the middle of my back and I get
transferred to narcotics where do they
send me Manhattan North Harlem Spanish
Harlem of Washington Heights it was like
a war zone
I remember going from Midtown south to
Manhattan north sitting out in front of
the 2-6 precinct in front of the
precinct station just standing out there
talking to friends and you’d hear
gunfire like on the block where the
precinct is shots fired down here shots
fired around the corner
shots fired down the other end of the
block is this post Moloch has Joe
Pistone already gone and done his 6
years of undercover with the Bonanno
family when the 200 people got arrested
has that already happened no it was like
around it was kind of sword at the same
time he was a little ahead of me was a
shock when he came out and you’re like
what is this guy doin undercover because
you’re working in a different department
honestly I didn’t even know I didn’t
even know I heard lit when I found out
later somebody called me from Paterson
and said did you see the news and I said
no and they told me all about it and
they see you know who it is
so know this is Joe Pistone let’s get
the hell out of here they said yeah I
didn’t even know he’s with the FBI
Wow that’s the part to me that’s so
impressive for him to stay six years
undercover like that yeah I mean that’s
that’s unheard of actors can act for a
month this guy acted for six years yeah
and listen I was an undercover for just
over two years it’s not easy so I did
that did really well in what I had to do
was involved in a couple bad things I
had some friends that wish
killed my partner was actually shot and
wounded in a gun battle with me I shot
the guy that that shot him you had a
medal for them
you got you got it yeah I actually I got
thirty medals from the NYPD alone
including the Medal of Valor Medal of
Valor was for the detective Hector
Santiago was shot a guy fired through
his windshield and he put his hand up
shot him through the through the arm and
he went out the door the second round
went through the headrest of the car so
luckily he was fast enough to get out of
the car and I want them taken down the
guy that did it and after narcotics
after that I get transferred to the New
York DEA task force and that’s a task
force that consists of New York City
cops New York State Police troopers
investigators and DEA agents and I went
to the task force I was assigned to a
phenomenal group with a guy by the name
of Jerry speciale he was my co case
agent and over the next three and a half
years we wound up in Costa Rica
Guatemala Brazil Ecuador and Colombia
did you do anything with Pablo’s group
word that was no not Pablo’s group a cha
WA was the main target in our case oh
you did something with Cali didn’t you I
got something you did something with
Cali a bunch of major major case work we
seized in about two years over about a
two-year period in excess of about ten
tons of cocaine enough to fill this room
ten tons tons see sixty million in cash
brought back a whole you know locked up
a whole bunch of bad guys I love that
work I liked working into DEA and in
1992 while this is going on while I’m at
DEA I actually went to a dinner one
night an honor Legion dinner it’s a
fraternal group in the NYPD of of all
these heroic cops so to get in the Honor
Legion you have to have a certain metal
or above to get in right to be accepted
so I went to this dinner one night one
of the guys comes over and he says
listen Rudy Giuliani
who was the former US Attorney he’s
running for mayor and we want you to
introduce him this is married vincas his
running against Incans yes you know I
didn’t know Rudy at the time the mr.
Giuliani at the time so I said ok I want
you to do some when he comes in it’s
like five six hundred cops and at the
time I had literally I’d had hair down
to here
I had a big beard I had all these
earrings so they bring me in this thing
they introduced me to Giuliani I shake
his hand and I go out and introduce him
and he gets this wild standing ovation
based on what I see all around him up
III brought him up I introduced got it
and lo and behold then you know within a
couple days somebody called me and said
Rudy called
and wants to meet you for breakfast is
it for what well what’s he want you know
it’s like it’s I’m gonna go meet him I
didn’t even own a suit like you know
what am i doing I want to meet him and
we had a great conversation over about
an hour hour and a half and I talked
about city about narcotics about crime
about all the stuff that was going on in
the city and got to know him and then
from that point on this is like in 1992
I guess until 1994 I actually helped
work on his campaign I brought in guys
volunteers to work on his security
detail constantly fed him information
you know a lot of the stuff that was
gone on the PD that I thought would help
the city and then lo and behold in 1994
he wins and he becomes the mayor of New
York there’s a lot of cities to be
mayor’s in mayor of New York is not like
me and mayor of you know another city
this is no you know why because when
you’re the mayor of New York City it’s
like a national position right you have
the UN you have a hundred and eighty
different countries represented in New
York City you have 12 million people
that live here work here visit here go
to school here on a daily basis you have
a bigger budget the New York City budget
is bigger than probably 40 state budgets
New York City budget is bigger than 40
state budgets yeah so let me ask you
while you were drawing this is the time
when you were driving him on the
weekends and you had one you were guys
driving him on the weekday because
that’s what I read about throughout is
that what it is yes I drove him on the
weekends once in a while but mostly I
supervised I oversaw the
he’s really trusted you he really
trusted me yeah he really trusted you
can tell when you when you read about it
and I think I read somewhere where you
and him both read gods but watch God
Father over fifty times or something
like that all the time yeah all the time
I still do it I said but yeah our
favorite movie I got to know him real
well between 92 or 94 I was with him a
lot so he wins takes over in January of
95 and in May I get a call from my
command to go down and see him at City
Hall January of 95
I know May he calls you but January 95
who are you in New York are you somebody
that is already reputable well-connected
people know who you are you are seen as
somebody that could be futures no Jen
you’re January of 95 I was in the
Department of Correction Rudy called me
down earlier and said look I want you to
I’m put in a new Commissioner in
correction there was a riot that’s what
happened there was a riot at Rikers a
bunch of correction officers got hurt in
Giuliani said look I’m changing out to
come getting rid of the commissioner I’m
bringing somebody new in he’s gonna need
help I want you to go I know you ran the
jail in Jersey go and help him so we
agreed I agreed I’ll do this for six
months not commissioner you’re helping
no I was gonna go as the executive
assistant to the commissioner got it you
know the executive assistant of the
chief of staff for a commissioner you’re
the buffer to the entire executive staff
you’re the buffer to the outside
community so that’s what I’m gonna do
I’m gonna go in the air I’m gonna be his
executive assistant chief of staff well
I went and we agreed Rudy and I agreed
I’m gone for six months not sure what
happened
I didn’t leave for six years I was there
for six months right around the time
that I was thinking I was gonna leave
the mayor made a major change he got rid
of that commissioner he brought in a new
commissioner who was the head of
probation at the time and at 11 o’clock
at night one night I get a call to
Gracie Mansion and I walk in and he says
listen the
Misha is gonna be leaving tomorrow and
we’re bringing it somebody new he said
and I want you to work with him to do
ABCD and all the stuff he says so I’m
looking at him and I said listen I can
I’ll do what I can do I said but he’s
the commissioner and I you know I can’t
there’s only so much I can do as the
chief of staff I don’t want euros oh I
forgot no you’re not gonna be the chief
of staff you’re gonna be the first
deputy now the first deputy commissioner
is the number two guy in charge and I’m
looking at him and I said listen could
we talk about this because I ran a jail
a big jail bad jail this is the biggest
jail system in the country Rikers has
ten facilities there’s six facilities in
the five boroughs he’s like no we just
talked about it it’s fine you’re going
to do this so you were pushing back but
you don’t want this job I didn’t you
know I was nervous you know I’ve done it
before
I actually thought I could do it I
wasn’t worried about it but it’s a big
job and he said no you’re gonna do it
and the next day he appointed the new
commissioner appointed me first deputy
and boom we took off so from that point
on for the next two and a half years I
was the first deputy and then the
Commissioner retired did you know this
coming or no okay so did he retire young
was he now he went to he does what
everybody else does they go to academia
and the you know professor at this
College that College came in one
afternoon around two o’clock in the
afternoon he says uh closes the door and
we had a great relationship his name was
Mike Jacobson he says I got good news
and bad news
I said what’s giving the bad news first
he said bad news is I’m leaving I’m like
really he said yep he says I just once
Sita mayor he said good news is you’re
getting a job I said no I I think maybe
that that might have been the bad news
part and we laughed and about an hour
later the mayor called me over to City
Hall and says tomorrow morning you’re
being appointed this is that eight
hundred and thirty five million dollar
budget thirteen thousand employees
this is that one you’re talking about
130,000 inmate admissions per year a
year yeah about a 900 million dollar
budget a you know 13,000 staff how are
you at this time I am let me see that
was 1990 98 I’m gonna take over so I was
43 42 43 yeah and let me ask you your
personality right now I’m sitting with
you you seem very you know easygoing you
seem very chill you seem very you know
ease but is that the personality back
then because I’ve read some stuff about
you like you know what it is like you
know how you talk to somebody in there
at a different faith and you’re talking
about how they were at their 20s and 30s
you ask around and they say he was a
fierce competitor he was cold he was
vicious like if they talk about certain
people in certain industries to do what
you were doing you kind of have to be
that way aren’t you like aren’t you paid
to kind of be look yeah I was an
extremely aggressive manager I was a
no-nonsense manager I think I’m very and
you if you ask the people that work for
me
they’ll tell you I’m extremely firm I’m
very fair my management style is pretty
simplistic if you work and you work hard
and you produce you’ll get ahead if you
don’t you got to go I’m not big on
transferring failure you see a lot of
times guys in this position and he’s
doing this thing and he’s not doing well
or he’s he’s messing up well you know a
lot of bosses will take him and they’ll
move him from here to here I’m not big
on that because if he failed over here
he’s gonna fail over here how you do one
thing to tell you everything that’s what
and then and then more importantly you
create dissension it create animosity
you create sort of a cancer within the
agency so for me it’s sort of black and
white you do well you produce and that
was the that was the concept you
mentioned teams earlier teams though the
the acronym stands for total efficiency
accountability and management system was
recognized by Harvard the the
innovations in American government
program and it’s basically how I created
the internal management system and
countability system for Rikers keep in
mind when I took over Rikers or when I
went to Rikers in 1995 we averaged a
hundred and fifty stabbings and
slashings per month with the highest
violence rate of any jail or prison
system in the nation it was the most
violent the most corrupt the most
dangerous crime ridden dirty filthy
mismanaged and in six years that I was
there we took it from the worst of the
worst in the country and turned it into
an international model for efficiency
accountability and safety some some
interesting stats on what happened well
there was a there was a ninety 93 or 94
percent reduction in stabbings and
slashings a 40 percent reduction in
overtime spending now keep in mind when
I took over we were spending 112 million
a year in overtime I knocked that down
by 40 40 50 percent assaults on staff I
knocked it down by 40 how did you do
what did you do with that like like is
it almost if you’re gonna play dirty you
have to play your game as well what’s a
little bit of that it’s a little bit of
that but you know what it is more than
more than that far more than that look
at Jack Welsh and GE how did he manage
he managed based on data data collection
Home Depot Walmart how do they manage
what what do they do to achieve what
they want done right they collect data
they could they have performance
measures they first of all they have
goals of the goals and objectives they
create performance measures to get to
those goals and objectives and then they
have an accountability system internally
that goes after those metrics goes after
those performance measures and you have
to hold people accountable to get there
so slashings and stabbings for example I
wanted I wanted the violence reduced
nobody understood this concept overtime
was out of control
sick time was out of control for every
day yours you know the correction
officers in the department at the time
you had in there in the budget 12 days a
year sick time in the budget /
correction officer so they could be up
to up – they could be sick for up to 12
days it was in the budget anything over
that
that they were over that 12 day period
1.6 million dollars that’s what it cost
the agency my average when I took over
the Department of Correction was twenty
two days a year that’s thirty five
million dollars that it cost the city so
when I came in and I looked at this I
said you know what the overtime and the
sick time is driven by one thing it’s
driven by violence if you drive down the
violence you’re gonna drive down the
overtime the sick time and everybody is
looking at me like I had three heads how
do you drive down violence though well
you go out the violence thing is easy
the violence thing is holding the
inmates accountable for criminal conduct
and here’s what I had a punishments and
bigger punishment when I came into the
department yeah I
the first stabbing the first major bad
thing that I saw to Spanish kids took a
black kid held him down on the ground
took a chicken bone sharpened and they
gave about 70 stitches in his back they
carved LK into his back the initials for
Latin Kings and my guys came to my
office and I said all right what happens
now what are we doing with these guys
they said what I want to punitive
segregation as I know but what are you
charged with
well they don’t we don’t charge them
criminally why they said because the
Bronx DA won’t prosecute it I said wait
wait a minute
they held the kid down on the ground to
give me 70 stitches if I walked outside
the facility if I walked outside this
hotel and I went out on the street and I
took a small razor blade and I nicked
you in your hand I’d get charged with
assault possession of a weapon and who
knows what else right in jail you mean
to tell me you could just about murder
somebody and nobody’s getting charged
criminally all right that’s gonna stop
so I called the Bronx da and I said
listen he said I don’t have the manpower
to prosecute all these cases I said you
have it now because I’m gonna send
people to you I’m gonna send
investigators up to the Bronx I’ll do
whatever you need but I can’t this can’t
be a criminal haven for criminal active
interest thing so how soon did that
happen how soon did that standard get
applied with
in a month okay and then how some did
everybody how the inmates realize what’s
happening there so I mean obviously news
travels pretty fast in three months we
saw a substantial reduction but then
there’s other things I enhance the
emergency service unit to go out and
start doing searches of the dormitories
you know guys slashed and stabbed they
need weapons right where’s the weapons
so you start looking for the weapons you
start holding the inmates accountable
you start holding the staff accountable
to make sure that they’re going out and
doing the job they’re supposed to do in
the wrong duty that’s the piece on the
violence and I’m making it simplistic
it’s far more complicated but
simplistically that’s that’s sort of
what we were doing
now when the violence comes down you
have less hospital runs say you say
there’s a confrontation between two
witnesses this inmate gets cut this
inmate gets cut they go to another
hospital this guy needs two officers on
him you need two on you those two come
from a facility so now you have four
officers they have to go to the hospital
you have to backfill the positions at
the facility you now have four eight
guys on overtime and people in you know
headquarters and in City Hall they
couldn’t figure out where all the
overtime was coming from so let me ask
you where did you learn this because you
mentioned Jack Welch are you reading
business but at that time were no
honestly are you reading David Osborne
wrote a book called reinventing
government and when I was fooling around
with Giuliani in 1992 from 1992 to 1994
Giuliani had the book in the car and I
went and got the book for myself and I
read the book what gets measured gets
done that’s the thing the only thing I
remember about it now but I basically
took that book the business concept of
management and said you know what it
works in business it works in Home Depot
it works in Walmart that works in
General Electric in other places as Wow
and I said why can it work here so when
you look at overall stats right violence
over time routine maintenance you know
they’d shut down a complete wing of a
jail system a complete wing because
they didn’t have a key why won’t it take
to make a key well it takes three days
three days makes three takes three days
I would have meetings and I would lose
my mind it takes three days to make a
key well you have to put the order and
you got to do a thing and then it’s got
to get approve and it’s got this really
so that key that took three days to get
made cost me $200,000 extra for that
three-day period because I had to move
inmates to another facility are you
crazy no making a key takes about four
minutes so we’re gonna streamline the
process to get to the key maker and
we’re gonna make the key in about an
hour how much should that happens today
in the government it’s amazing I
remember being in the Army they should
say government spends money like they
buy products that are not even worth
that much and they’re paying over for
just because somebody doesn’t know how
to negotiate and someone’s not hold them
accountable well she does get the
negotiation you just said the magic word
it’s all about accountability
accountability the negotiation part is a
part of the accountability you need to
hold people accountable how much are you
making at that time as a commissioner of
a correction about 140 grand you see
that’s the problem it’s Balto you know
because I when you look at how police
officers get paid right so the current
way at least when you look it up a
police officer nor who is not the safest
place versus maybe another city in
Jersey my son’s a cop indoors is and I
read that that’s great the fact that
he’s 32 years old right 33 years old
yeah when you read that and you say okay
well copper in a safer place you know
Beverly Hills 90210 nicer zip code
they’re getting paid more yet they’re
doing less to workers there is no crime
than a guy in Detroit as a cops making
$36,000 it just doesn’t make any sense
so the areas where they’re working
double time they’re getting paid less
than the areas where they’re not getting
any kind of things going on they’re
getting paid more I think there’s a
little bit of a flaw during the in the
in the math but there’s a flaw listen
it’s not only a flaw the government’s
the city government state governments
they can only afford with it can afford
how do you solve that no how do you
solve that in you could have to matter
what you have to hope yeah you have to
have hope
the
you have cops like my son you know and
this is a true story what I’m gonna tell
you he was he started his career in
Passaic County where I where I was and
about three years in he got laid off and
I called him up to my house and I said
listen I’m gonna help you get a job and
I got some great places that make an
enormous amount of money and I’m gonna
call the chief and I’m gonna see if you
can go here you know to Ridgewood New
Jersey or you know Paramus New Jersey
cops are a white shield uniformed cop
making a hundred twenty thirty thousand
you that’s amazing right there okay my
son comes in he says that’s alright dad
I know where I’m going as we go easy
don’t get mad but I know where I’m going
and I’ve already planned it and I want
to go there I said we’re going he’s I’m
going to Newark and I just looked at him
I said dude you go into Newark it’s
probably one of the lowest paying jobs
in the state and it’s like the eighth
highest crime rate in America you’re
going to Newark and I said why don’t you
come up here while I live and he looks
at me this is God’s honest truth he says
that when your wife has geese and this
swimming pool out back she calls the
cops he goes I am NOT chasing geese I
run a school that’s what I say so so I
said so I I tried I tried the money
thing you know like he does so he’s a
true baby and I said listen I says what
about the money what about your career
he goes oh I’m talking to the guy that
took a 50% pay cut because he wanted to
follow his dream how’s his relationship
with you there’s the admirers are living
up admiration for my son literally is my
best friend he’s my best friend
you know he’s my closest confidant he’s
my best friend how do the same relation
my dad my dad’s my best friend the world
now I can’t even describe it you that
affinity if I want to be happy my
husband my best friend so I’m assuming
you’re big Yankees fan
absolutely you were telling me earlier
something about the logo so you what is
this special thing about this he has his
logo see this logo yes in 1877 the NYPD
created a Medal of Honor on that Medal
of Honor there’s a logo just like this
that’s where this logo came from Wow
because in 1923 the New York Yankees
adopted it so they
this close connection there’s this tie
between New York City cops and the New
York Yankees and that’s one of the
reasons and that’s you said who design
at Tiffany’s design Tiffany’s cast on it
at the time and you said the one when
you got your Commissioner badge the
first one that was given in hate and
something was Teddy Roosevelt it was
about Teddy Roosevelt once the the head
of the Commission in 1897 while 1897 and
a years later you’re a fortieth yep
police commissioner let’s go back to
that part so obviously you have certain
systems that’s working in the jail
you’re running 13,000 employees hundred
forty hundred thirty thousand inmates
that are coming through regularly you
have all these different
responsibilities that you’re doing nine
hundred million dollar budget you’re
changing the numbers you’re bringing on
overtime from 120 million dollars forty
percent lower all of these things you
made the decisions your keys gonna cost
two hundred thousand dollars because you
got to move people wait three days so
now how do you go from there to
Commissioner of NYPD I mean that’s a you
know that happened the priests story to
that is 11 days earlier the New York
City Police Commissioner Howard safer
resigned retired rehired so this is not
a positive note no negative no no wasn’t
kind of he was leaving he was done and
the mayor had to fill that position so
at the end of the 11 days there were two
people in the running Joe Dunn was the
chief of Department for the NYPD’s the
number three in command and there was me
that they were looking at the mayor
interviewed him the mayor interviewed me
and for eleven days we had no clue who
it was nobody we didn’t have an idea are
you talking to him throughout that 11
day period or not I had with him I you
know constant they’re still
communication there’s communications but
he he’s not saying a word and on August
I think it was August 19th it was a
Friday night mayor called my house about
11:30 that night and said tomorrow
morning
you’re gonna be appointed maybe in New
York City’s 40th police commissioner so
you go from having 13,000 staff members
to having 55,000 you go from a billion
dollar budget to having a three and a
half billion dollar budget most
importantly you’re not dealing with the
inmates but you have to worry about the
12 million people that visit live work
go to school in a city on a daily basis
the next morning I went to City Hall and
I was appointed
New York City’s 40th police commissioner
how’d you feel at the time I can’t say
how I felt at the time I was sort of
floating on a cloud it’s sort of
overwhelming you know it’s it’s it’s a
big enormous job because you know
sometimes when you’re in that moment it
goes so fast that you don’t even have
time to appreciate it yeah but you know
what I’ve had in my career I’ve had
about four or five of those correction
Commissioner getting appointed as
commissioner getting appointed to the
NYPD as commissioner I remember in 2003
I was sent to Iraq by President Bush as
the interim Minister of Interior and I
remember getting there and I was there
for less than 24 hours and my press guys
come to me and they said commissioned
the press they know you’re here now so
you have to do a press conference so
we’re gonna go over and do the press
conference and I said okay so where we
going we’re going through this big hall
in this in the Republican Guard palace
and we get over there and this is big
massive throne that’s the only that’s
the only way I could describe it it’s a
throne made out of like tiger skin or
leopard skin or something I forget what
it was and they said okay you’re gonna
go up on the on the dais up there and
you’re gonna sit in that chair and then
and I said guys I gotta sit in that
chair they said yeah I said why hey so
cuz that’s worth presses can’t you get a
normal chair they said listen that was
the dumbest chair just go up there and
sit in the chair and I can remember
thinking in my head really that was
Saddam’s chair like Saddam had meetings
here like two months ago and I’m sitting
in his chair so it’s that kind of stuff
in my career I can remember things like
that it was kind of nuts Shh showcase so
now you’re NYPD Commissioner everyone
around the states knows you you’re
always on TV you’re being written about
talked about paper every day there’s
something because you’re the man in
charge you’re the guy that on the whole
show
what’s between then and a next call and
I’m talking to call from the top where
the commander in chief makes the call
what happens during that time I think
the biggest thing was 846 on the morning
of September 11th I was the commissioner
I was in my office
I was actually taking a shave I just
finished exercising I’m standing there
taking a shave and my chief of staff
came in banging on the door I opened the
door and I said what is it would it
would eat what are you doing he said a
plain just did Tower one I said all
right calm down
and I thought it was I thought I was
gonna look out the window and see you
know a small aircraft sticking out the
window or something
I looked at the damage of the building I
could see it on it I had a TV above our
tread my treadmill and I could see the
damage so I actually walked out of my
office with the towel wrapped around me
went into my conference room pulled back
the shades and I could see the building
it’s only about quarter mile away I
looked at the top of the building and I
could see the damage and I thought
that’s no small plane I don’t know what
that is
I even had doubts whether it was a plane
at all I didn’t know what it was I
called the mayor I said look I’ll meet
you at 7:00 World Trade Center which was
right across the street from Tower one
that’s where our command center was is
that 7 World Trade Center over 75
Barclays Oh 75 Barclays is where you
guys know 75 Barclays where I got
trapped right I went downtown went to go
to 7 World Trade and when we got to
Vesey Street there were cops on that
corner stopping the traffic and my guy
said look I got the Commissioner in the
car and a sergeant ran up to the Kearney
says he salutes me and he says
commissioner you can’t get onto the
block he said they’re jumping I said
what he said they’re jumping and I had
no conception of what he was taught I
didn’t know what he was talking about I
get out of the car and I looked down the
street and you know people were jumping
you saw that you you saw that taking
place yeah but listen I know people saw
it on TV but in the early minutes in
that first it’s in that first 30 minutes
in that first 15 because I was down
there within seven or eight minutes I
probably watched two or three dozen
people jump they were coming down some
two or three at a time and they were
landing on Vesey they were landing in
the courtyard between Tower one and
Tower two and they were hitting the over
headings of the building so you could
hear it I was up the block I was about a
hundred yards up the block and you can
hear him hitting that overhang and
you know exploding so the mayor got the
air within three or four minutes after
the second plane I was standing in front
of Tower one in Tower two when the
second plane slammed through the north
side of the tower I could hear the
aviation pilots or helicopter pilots in
the NYPD saying that a second airliner
just land through Tower two and that’s
when I realized we were under attack
what happens Thanks Giuliani gets there
within two or three minutes I told him
what I had just seen we actually walked
down to West Street we went to the
command center where the fire
department’s executive staff was so was
the first Deputy Commissioner was the
chief of Department the chief of
operations there chaplain father judge
couple NYPD guys that I knew we talked
to them we were there about 10 15
minutes and we left went back to 75
Barclay Street where I initially met him
we’re gonna put him in an office there
so that he could call the White House we
wanted to make sure we had air support
we’re gonna make sure we were getting
resources from the government and he he
went into this small office at 75
Barclay we’re standing there our staff
is all around us
he’s sitting in front of me on a phone
he’s talking to the White House and all
the sudden he hangs up the phone and he
looks at me he says that’s not good I
said what is it he said I think they
said that the Pentagon just got hit and
they’re evacuating the White House I
didn’t even have time to grasp what he
said because as he said that the
building we were in started to shake
like a freight train was coming through
the side of it the door slammed open and
Joe Esposito was my chief of Department
the door slams open in he yells
everybody get down it’s coming down and
I didn’t know if he was talking about
the building we were in or something
else all the windows blew out the doors
blew open the place filled with dust and
gas and debris and it was over in about
12 seconds and it was mass chaos outside
we couldn’t breathe so we we actually
got trapped inside there we couldn’t get
out the way we went in because that was
on the outside
and so we were gonna try to get through
the building all the doors were locked
we were physically trapped in this
office suffocating and all of a sudden
one of the doors opened and there’s
these two Spanish guys that were
maintenance guys with a ton of keys on
them and I said those keys for these
doors is yes sir
I said open these doors I need to get to
Church Street I need to go that way
and he opened the doors and off we went
and we got out of the building otherwise
I could remember actually thinking I’ve
been in gun battles I’d been stabbed
I’ve been shot at I’m gonna die
suffocating in this room because I can’t
breathe we eventually got out and mayor
Giuliani is with you the entire time
where you put him at that office to just
no no he was with us the entire time the
whole time you’re trying to get into
Church streets so he’s good and we did
we you know we got through the doors we
got out on to church you know it was
weird we got to Church Street that
building the whole front of that
building is solid white you know
big windows Florida a floor-to-ceiling
windows and I remember walking into that
lobby and looking out at those windows
and they were white there was solid
white and I’m like what is that
what’s house what is that we went over
to the circular vestibule door push the
door open got outside and there were two
things that struck me now we are
literally we’re probably three or four
blocks from the towers right there was
this much dust on the ground where we
were all over and there was no sound
it was absolutely no sound no birds no
sirens no horns no nothing it was like
when you walked out that door it’s like
somebody’s put earphones on you and you
couldn’t hear anything
it was really strange and then somebody
told us that the building came down she
had this moment Mayor Giuliani gets a
call he realizes pentagons got hit his
ball white house is being evacuated all
eyes on New York
everybody’s watching to see what’s gonna
happen what happens next we got out on
the church street you know when you talk
about leadership and you’re talking
about some of the stuff I’ve done and
people credit me for things my
management style
I remember getting out onto Church
Street and the mayor turning to his
press secretary it says get me a pole
camera right now and I can remember and
I know him well I can
looking at him thinking really we’re
gonna do a press conference here like I
don’t know if this is the time but it
wasn’t the time and that’s not what he
was doing he already knew in his mind
that the entire world’s watching
and somebody has to tell them and it’s
gonna be okay and when you think back to
that day and you look at that footage
you’ll see him we’re literally walking I
mean we’re we’re in motion and he they
get the pool camera they get him up to
him they get the microphone stick it in
his face and he said listen here’s what
I want you know people stay in your
house you know don’t panic it’s bad yes
but it’s gonna be okay
we’re gonna get through this and between
that and the first press conference
which was later that afternoon I can’t
tell you how many people thousands of
people that have come up to me in
airports walking down the street in
different towns in the West Coast all
over the country where I’ve been where
people have come up to me and say you
made me feel safe because I had no damn
idea what was gonna happen
and if it wasn’t for you and it wasn’t
for Giuliani I don’t know what would
happen I don’t know what I was thinking
that you guys made me feel safe even
even people who disagree with you and
they’ve said that as well even people
who were kind of like you know I don’t
like the way he handled XYZ when it came
down to how that 9/11 he meant was
handled we wasn’t have anybody else in
that position that we we did the best we
could but I think I think the
combination worked and worked well that
led to President Bush giving you call
how many years after we would that’s an
oh one I think oh four I live in I live
you know – I live in January of Oh – I
retire I’m done with my government
service so I thought until May about
three I was actually at you know I’m in
Manhattan I’m going to Barneys to buy
some shirts my cell phone rings and it’s
it’s somebody at the Pentagon they said
the president wants you to come meet
with secretary Rumsfeld and then I wound
up going to Iraq for four months as the
Minister of Interior to get them up and
running and to get the new Minister of
Interior in place my wife wasn’t too
happy about that given it was a war zone
but I went I did what the president
wanted got it done came back then I
thought my government’s
service was over for sure than in
December you know the president gets
reelected November of four within about
a week after he gets elected re-elected
I get a call from the White House
they’re sending me some questions and
they send me those questions is this
Dana Powell or D novena palutena Powell
yeah
deena man you got a good memory yeah
yeah Deana Powell sends me some
questions answer them get it back to us
at which time I find out that I’m being
considered to take Tom Ridge his job in
Homeland Security I’ve already run the
largest Police Department largest jail
system this was a job it was a new job
the Department of Homeland Security had
just been created on the ridge he put it
all together 22 federal agencies and a
staff of about 180,000 people I was
ready I thought I could do it I knew I
could do it the president knew I can do
it we had that conversation him and I
actually is that when he had just come
back from a Canada uh how will I know
this leg because I’ve studied your story
the night before there’s a part the
night before where you were in tears
because you turn down the job the first
time then this I’m like I’m curious to
know how what was the you know you were
conflicted what were you thinking about
the night where you and your wife were
like baby I don’t know if I want it like
I don’t know what that conversation was
you know it was it was the Thanksgiving
it was either the night before the night
after Thanksgiving you know they called
me and said this is it you know the the
president’s gonna ask you if you want
the job and I thought if I take this job
like my my life savings now at this
point is pretty substantial you know
I’ve been in the private sector for
three years I was making good money but
I’m gonna have to give up a substantial
piece of this in the millions day you
know you have to be specific that’s a
hundred thousand shares that $50 I saw
was like it was like eight million
dollars they were basically telling me
you got a forfeit
yeah and I was at the Taser Company
closer yeah I taste a stock I’m like I
you know I don’t know you know I don’t
know if I want to do that and my wife
was like is it really worth it I don’t
know I don’t think so I told my wife I
said okay I’m done I’m not gonna do it
you sure I said yeah okay so I’m gonna
wait until they call and then I’m gonna
tell them so Dina calls I said look I
gotta talk to you I don’t think
gonna happen and she said hold on and in
the card got on the phone and Andy card
was the chief of staff for the president
I forget the entire conversation but he
basically says look you know there’s all
that stuff in the press where the
president’s looking at this guy and that
guy in this person in that person he’s
only interested in one person he wants
you to take the job
and I remember I’m sitting in my office
and my wife sitting there across from me
and she’s looking at me and she’s going
no no don’t no and I’m like and I’m
going yes sir uh-huh and I’m scared that
that’s like I don’t want it I don’t want
to say nothing out loud it’s gonna give
her a way that I’m doing this and I
agreed I’m gonna go see the president I
hang up the phone I told her I said look
I can’t say no to the president I’m not
gonna do it I said you know let me I’m
gonna go see him this wasn’t like this
is like I think on a Monday or something
so I got to go see him on Wednesday and
I get in the car and I Drive to DC me
and Tony Carr Bonetti Giuliani’s chief
of staff we drove down together we went
to the JW Marriott and I would have
forgot that if you didn’t remind me and
I can remember the president flying over
the building here in the helicopters and
Tony were sitting in the hotel suite and
he looks at me says okay start getting
ready cuz he’s gonna call you soon as he
lands and as soon as he got in boom they
called I went over to the White House
would they snuck me in got to the White
House and the president I walked in give
me a hug he said I’m looking for a
secretary of homeland you want it I said
yes sir
he said sit down he said I want to tell
you why you’re picked and and that was
it so in that moment when you’re going
through that decision this is this is
not a regular position now you’ve been
commissioner of a New York correction
Commissioner of NYPD sat in the chair
with Saddam Hussein you’ve had some
interesting experiences there and now
you’re being called by the President to
say here’s Homeland Security it’s your
job while you’re going through that and
I’m talking to scar Moochie earlier are
you sitting there thinking about all the
research due diligence everything that’s
about to happen and you’re not thinking
about that in that moment no got it so
you’re not thinking anyway I’m gonna do
my job I’m gonna be called up on and I
know how to handle this I’m the best guy
if you’re talking about the job
I’m thinking about you know and I’m sure
Anthony you know he’s focused on the job
you focus on the job you focus on what’s
gonna happen what do you have to do you
know and in my mind I was four steps
ahead that all right you know
okay staffing agencies they you know I
was I was there already in my head
before I even talked to the president
when I knew I was being considered I
wasn’t thinking about anything but how
am I gonna do this and have as much
success because I’ve had my whole career
I’ve never failed ever in fact not only
have I never failed
I had enormous success I’m gonna do the
same thing here so that’s where my head
is what you never realized what nobody
realizes unless you are positioned for
one of these jobs you come out of high
school you go to college you go to law
school you clerked for a federal judge
you go to a major firm you become a US
Attorney you become a judge and then you
get a job and the whole time you’re like
mr. goody two-shoes right down the road
until you get to where you’re going if
you’ve had a life getting these jobs are
hard and I can remember there were times
when I was actually being vetted we had
a conference room in our office Giuliani
and I it was it had to be 25 feet long
30 feet long major conference here in
New York City
Tom scored in that conference room on
the conference table every set of taxes
that I had since I was 18 years old on
that table come on no I’m not joke every
set of Terrace every tax this is before
you take the job on once you took the
job once you once you’re in the process
one so once you’re gone except Homeland
Security Homeland Security once you
accept the nomination does the world
know about it yet or not oh yeah they
know okay president and that mean that’s
what everybody okay so from that point
on you got a you know every speech
you’ve ever get given every application
you’ve ever filled out for a job every
every taxes every year’s taxes all this
stuff you have to have I had a group of
people sitting around there like lawyers
and analysts and all these people just
going through this stuff one thing after
what are they looking for oh because of
this one thing you should resign no
because they’re looking for
inconsistencies there
looking for I think most importantly
what they’re looking for are where could
you get tripped up in Congress at a
congressional hearing
who’s gonna not like your position got
it that you said in this speech this
thing who’s not gonna like that and have
a problem with it and what’s ironic as I
learned I’d say 90% of the people in
Congress that would scrutinize me they
could never even get my job they could
never get that job of course they
couldn’t be vetted right they’ve never
had an executive position they’ve been
in politics the whole time they couldn’t
do it they can’t do it which is kind of
frustrating when you’re going through
this process especially when you flunk
out of the process because you come to
the realization that the people that
scrutinized you or that had all this
negative stuff to say about you they
couldn’t hold a candle to you let me ask
you this so they’re you know you this
kind of takes me to you know the movie a
few good men where the whole parts going
back and forth then you can’t handle the
truth you want the truth you can’t and
then at the end he says you need me like
you know like not everybody can do my
job and so I’m sitting there and I’m
like okay Code Red Code Red you know you
got a Duke order but we don’t put it in
a manual that there’s Code Red no one
talks about it okay what they did to you
know private such-and-such Santiago out
I think that was a kid’s name and then
you sit down and say it has to be an sob
to be able to run you know that camp to
be able to do to work but here’s you
know that’s a really really good point
it’s a really good point especially that
thing you need me that’s logic but
that’s not reality because those guys in
Washington that’ll give a damn really
they don’t give a damn but what are the
links that came up what were the things
so I read all of them I read every
single one of the controversial stuff
that came up on yeah I had a I had a
Danny you had a nanny but okay I had
that was what the 14 months that taxes
weren’t paid for her right that was 14
months or whatever the number was and I
ironically what a lot of people don’t
know as soon as I was drew
I actually I paid the taxes I paid the
penalties I paid the fines you $220,000
and five
whatever was yeah I forget what I paid
all that stuff
immediately after like in probably
January February of five then there’s
all these investigations that start
right and you start getting scrutinized
the press is pushing one way the
prosecutors are following up the press
and they’re feeding each other they feed
each other so you go through this
process where now it’s no longer with
the nanny
anything you’ve ever done in your entire
life that anybody has a problem with
they have now crawled out from under a
rock and they’re making calls to every
press yet about what was them like okay
if you went to prison
and you did three years I think a lot of
people should be doing the same time as
well and they have similar cases if not
worse one of them was the one I pulled
up that was the quarter-million by the
Israeli businessman that give you a no
interest free that’s a completely false
so that’s what I read so I’m gonna kind
of list some of them that I remember
okay so now it’s reported or which one
I’m talking it’s not it’s reported it’s
on Wikipedia and for some reason they
refused to pull it off I can’t figure
out why an Israeli businessman give me
an interest-free loan that I never paid
back and I was charged with a bribe and
bribe receiving that’s what it says on
Wikipedia bottom line is there was no
interest-free loan it was a personal
loan I paid interest
I was not charged with bribery and there
was no bribery charges okay so that’s
number one so put that a sign okay but
here’s here’s why that became an issue
because that loan that he lent me was
actually when I went to Iraq I was built
in a house and I was built I didn’t know
how much time I was gonna be in Iraq I
was building a house I was making a
really good a lot of money and I needed
to make sure that while I was gone
I’m gonna be making a hundred forty
thousand a year now and I was a
majorette amazing this is this is o3o so
this this is this is post you being the
CEO of a Giuliani’s company it was
government during that time during that
time is that you started your own or is
it you know joining as a CEO Rudy
Giuliani’s karate I got it so I know you
left afterwards you started some
contracts
three we’re working together got it I
get a call from the White House to go to
Iraq I said yes
when I said yes I have to accept their
salary
so I go from making a million dollars a
year to make an owner of 40,000 a year
so I want to make sure that I can finish
my house yeah I borrow 250,000 from a
friend and I go about my business on the
conflict of interest or on the financial
disclosure I don’t even remember what it
was one of them when my accountants and
my staff we started filling out all the
stuff because they didn’t make monthly
payments on this thing on this loan it
was just a personal loan that I was
gonna pay back we didn’t put it on the
conflict of interest report that was a
federal charge that is a federal charge
yeah it’s full statement or I’ve gotten
whatever it’s a federal charge okay fair
enough so that’s one the nanny
remember I said I paid the taxes I paid
the fines that paid the months but okay
so listen six counts is that a troll
charge though yes the nanny is a federal
charges and they charge me now was they
considered two years right that I had
the nanny okay so to you two counts of
failing to pay payroll tax two counts of
failing to put it on my IRS documents
and two counts of failing to tell my tax
preparer so for the nanny that I paid
cash six federal counts they charge me I
Got News for you I challenge you I
challenge you to go in any court docket
in this country and see where they’ve
done that to anybody else in the country
never happens so let me ask you another
question here on that the part with Karl
Rove I don’t know how you feel about
Karl Rove and I don’t know your
relationship with them the other part
where you read about him and say well
this was a way that Karl Rove brought
you in to taint you indirectly to change
Rudy said that’s nonsense so you’re not
you’re not putting any value behind that
one okay so you’re not even saying that
that’s the summit for the nomination for
so mayor Giuliani wouldn’t get the next
nomination No okay got it
so now so this happens you go up you
apologize you say you let the people
down you all you said is please
allow me to come back and be able to
spend time with my wife and kids the
sooner I can do that allow me that but
you didn’t go out there and say denyin
yeah but you just kind of said hey if I
did it I yeah I’ll deal with it yeah so
okay and that reminds me of a scene from
Judge which I don’t know if you’ve seen
a movie the judge with Robert Duvall I
don’t know if you’ve seen it or not the
end scene you got to see it’s a very
unique especially you I think you would
really appreciate the ending of that
movie it’s with Robert Downey jr. and
Duvall and if you know Duvall obviously
you know Godfather you would love to vol
I or handles it he said if I did the
crime I want to pay for it because I’ve
been a judge for the last 42 years if I
did it I did it
so now you go and you do three years you
come out that entire process that
happens pretty fast right when you go
through that what are you now thinking
yourself that you’re out you know and
what what did that time that you did in
prison what did that do to you
did that help you think about what I’m
thinking it’s not only it’s not only the
time in prison it’s from the beginning
of the process to the time I came home
it’s all one it’s all one because it’s
it’s like this blur of it’s a blur of
stuff that you go through that you never
expected to go through how do you get
targeted huh you know really are they
attacking me because of this nanny thing
really you know they’re gonna charge me
for this you know not having the loan on
a financial disclosure why did you say
yeah I did the crime if I did it you
know I have to do face to crime well
I’ll tell you why first of all when you
are fighting federal criminal charges
it’s a fight for your life literally
it’s a fight for your life because that
felony conviction is a life sentence of
collateral consequence that’s gonna
crucify you personally financially and
professionally so that that’s number one
if you fight it if you say I didn’t do
it is that is that what the fight is or
or you can’t win you can’t win you only
have the constitutional rights you think
you have if you have the money to pay
for them how much influence did mayor
Giuliani or President Bush have at the
time to be able to help you with that
the only one that could have helped me
was President Bush
why didn’t he most of them will not what
why not don’t he
he nominee he brought you up it doesn’t
make any difference yeah any hard
feelings about that at all I get it
most politicians don’t have the courage
to stand up and say this is wrong was
there any motive behind it or was it
just just you know no no no they just
don’t have the character practices you
can’t fight the US government unless you
are a multi multi-millionaire or being
here you just can’t and I’ll explain why
during the whole course of this thing
from 2006 to 2009 you really go back to
oh five oh five two oh nine I was
averaging legal bills of about a hundred
thousand a month a hundred thousand then
closer to the end we’re up to an or
fifty month so in October of 2009 I was
remanded the judge didn’t like the fact
in my case my attorney one of my
attorneys he sent an email to the
Washington Times and he said be in court
on this day because we found
prosecutorial misconduct
we found the government suppress
evidence they suborn perjury found all
this stuff be in court on that day well
the judge found out when he found out
instead of addressing it he remanded me
revoke my bail put me in jail and told
me he’s gonna suspend my attorneys again
for the third time well at this point
I’m out of money
I can’t keep doing I can’t you can’t
keep doing this in an October of night
of 2009 in that month that I was
remanded my legal bill for one month was
for a month 30 days my legal bill was
four hundred seventy six thousand
dollars how do you how do you fight that
how do you do that and at that point I
told my attorneys I said go see the
prosecutors so I quit I’ll take a plea
tell me what I’m pleading to I’ll plead
whatever they want I can’t do this
anymore because my wife and kids are
gonna live in the street if I keep doing
it that is the problem with the federal
system and that’s being targeted when
you get into the system and you see the
flaws and failures and you see you know
I thought it was just me
let me ask you this other question you
know I had I have friends who
were cops when I got out of the military
a lot of people become cops you know the
whole thing is when you get out of the
UN Fort Bragg go be a cop you know go be
fire about it go be ups you’ll get ten
points you get whatever that runs on
your score so my friends want to be cops
and I would ask myself so tell me what
is it a be a cop and one of my friends
got kicked out of being a PD himself so
one day I’m sitting I said so tell me
what happened and you know how there’s
like different stories there’s a one
story which is what man I just did what
everybody else was doing and I said yeah
but what happened three months later six
months or 12 months I mean this is my
body this is my we’re hanging out
together I mean he would tell you the
story right now himself I will tell you
one thing that happened so for him what
he was doing was he was doing steroids
and was selling steroids to other cops
ain’t no cops do that a lot it’s a it’s
a whole different thing he said the one
thing that happened with me is I really
started thinking I’m above the law and I
started using some of my power against
civilians and I started feeling within
my family
I started feeling on my wife with my mom
and dad with my siblings my peers I felt
like I was above the law because you can
say anything to me because I have the
badge and it was an LAPD guy and that
badge gave me a lot of power right so do
you think sometimes maybe even yourself
or your career because you’re looking
back right now reflecting right like for
me when I sit back and I reflect in my
life and I say okay I live in Iran we
were bombed on it was a very difficult
time for me as a kid my parents got a
divorce had very bipolar type of people
in my life that were complicated and not
the loving most incredible you know
experience that you wanted then boom we
live in a refugee camp I get stabbed at
12 years old at the refugee camp I come
to the states I go to high school have a
one point oh GPA now in my life it’s
been a pretty you know a mother sad
communist outside imperialist like it’s
a lot of mess that around through right
so I don’t have a degree I don’t have a
four-year two-year degree and I go back
I think about what could I have done
differently in this to mistake I mean
that when you go back yourself did you
see some trends where you were kind of
like I can get away with this because
I’m such and such not at all no zero no
at all no you’re not thinking I wasn’t
thinking I did anything wrong in fact
most of the counts that I pled guilty to
that I actually pled guilty to they were
accounting issues
is that my accountants dealt with I
didn’t really I didn’t fill out my taxes
I didn’t do that
so how do you live today with all that
like is there any bitterness and you’re
like you know knowing how much more you
could have contributed as you know
service is there anything where you
could say I could have done this
differently because it sounds like you
don’t have yeah you know what I could
have done differently I could have you
know I could have I could have been you
know the goody two-shoes you know gone
to school and you know clerk for the
judge and gone to law school and all
this stuff I could have done that and I
could have gone that route but I didn’t
and you know I personally think I’m
satisfied with what I’ve done for this
country you know I’m sorry this stuff
happened the way it happened if I could
have done something differently that I
thought of at the time more than let’s
let’s wrap up with this final talk I was
in UK last week and I was interviewing a
few people and we talked about the resi
is a recidivism rate right and the
numbers came up for America right right
and I think u.s. is 56 percent after 56
percent of inmates go back a year later
67 percent three years later but 76
percent five years later right like the
system is created to get you to go back
into prison if that makes any sense
right so you know that’s how the system
is set up what do you think about the
current system that we have ourselves
and if there was anything you would
change with the current system we have a
lot of people in prison that sold weed
or you know you know that’s nothing like
you know major but they’re still in
prison nowadays and it’s a pretty high
cost I think the number I saw was like
76 billion dollars Larry the prison’s
system the criminal justice system in
America is horrendous it’s horrible it’s
horrible for a number of reasons one we
put people in prison that shouldn’t be
there Prison is for bad guys bad guys do
bad things
Prison is for people that you want to
protect society from that’s what prison
should be for that’s what it was
originally
we ate it for that’s not what we use it
for we put commercial fishermen a quart
too many fish in prison somebody sells a
whale’s tooth on an eBay we put him in
prison we take a young black kid that
sells three dime bags of marijuana and
we charge him federally and given 55
years are you kidding that’s crazy to me
that’s insane so what do you do what
it’s saying well you do what I’ve done
for the last five years since I get out
you fight Congress who I think is
completely inept most of the time you
fight them to change you fight them to
create change we’re sitting right now on
a historic piece of legislation that I
think is gonna be it’s gonna be voted on
within the next two days is this the
email you were talking about there you
got first step back yeah got it right
I’ve been I’ve been pushing this for
five years but this is only a small part
of the criminal justice system
you can’t put people in prison suck all
the societal values out of them
institutionalize them turn them into
monsters and think you’re gonna send
them home and everything’s gonna be okay
it’s not that’s why that recidivism
rates so damn high because we’re not
doing anything for him you have to do
some if you’re gonna put him in prison
and you’re gonna destroy their lives
well then at least do something so that
when they get home they can get a job a
real job did then go to work take care
of the family take care of their kids
pay taxes because as it stands right now
we don’t do none of that you know if
you’re watching this right now obviously
if you’re as enamored by the story that
Bernard Kerik has with the different
experiences he’s had and you know what
he’s had to done as I am I’d love to
hear your thoughts on what we’re talking
about here at the end so what do you
comment here or you send me a tweet I
Patrick Lee are you on Twitter as well
or no what’s your Twitter handle you’re
not a charity
okay tweet us at Patrick mid David or
Bernard Kerik and let us know what you
took away from today’s interview because
for me it’s a lot of connecting the dots
with all these different stories and I
hope you go in a direction where
something happens with this because at
this pace you’re getting young boys and
young you know that are making mistakes
that ruins the rest of their lives and
they’re going into prison alone and
given others a life sentence
it’s a life saying I see had a lot of
collateral consequence you know that
they can’t get out from under yeah
but I want to hear from you I’m Kirsten
what you think about it again Bernard
Kerik sir thank you so much thank you to
get somebody Taemin thank you at your time thank you yes
commander-in-chief makes the call what
happens during that time I think the
biggest thing was 846 on the morning of
September 11th I was the commissioner he
said a plane just did tower one I looked
at the top of the building and I could
see the damage and I thought that’s no
small plane I’ve been in gun battles I’d
been stabbed I’ve been shot at I’m gonna
die suffocating in this room because I
can’t breathe
there is no greater Police Department in
the world than the NYPD
your personality right now I’m sitting
with you you seem very chill you see
Mary you know he’s but is that the
personality back then this is right
after he came back from Canada how would
so today we are sitting down with
Bernard Kerik who is known as the former
Commissioner of NYPD I believe it was a
three and a half billion dollar budget
that he was managing 55,000 employees
reporting to him and he was the
commissioner the correction department
in New York which both of them are the
biggest organizations in America and
sake in prison and I’m talking about
police department he was running it
during that time until he had some
challenges he faced and we’re gonna talk
about some of that stuff he’s also got a
new book that just came out recently
from jail or to jail he’s also a former
New York Times bestseller for another
book he wrote years ago so with that
being said Bernard care thank you for
being a guest on Barry tainment
thank you sir I mean that’s a pretty
interesting resume you have there you
know when when I when I’ve been around
yeah when I read up on you and I go
through and the more I’m diggin you got
recognized you came up with this team
system that Harvard recognized as a
accountability system on how you were
able to organize that a lot of different
organizations used it and you get credit
for coming out with that you’ve had over
30 awards that was given to you for
different works that you’ve done I mean
there’s so many different things and
then at the same time the time were you
standing right next to President Bush
and they’re talking about you becoming
who you become and in the fall right
after that part so prior to let’s go
back to the beginning on that’s what
this whole thing got started who was
Bernard Kerik at 16 years old if I was
in high school with you who were you if
you were in high school with me you’d
never know me because I didn’t I didn’t
go to high school that much you know I
had a pretty rough upbringing I was
abandoned by my mother eight three three
and a half she was beaten to death and
murdered when I was nine we moved out of
Newark it was a rough place and moved to
Patterson which was equally as rough was
just smaller and more compact I went to
East Side High School which became
famous or I should say infamous in the
major motion-picture leaned on me with
Morgan Freeman mm-hm I think there were
probably about 25-30 white kids in the
school at the time out of 1700 I was one
of them that was a rough place to go to
school and it really wasn’t an education
you learned how to survive you learn how
to fight ironically for me fortunately I
got involved in the martial arts when I
was 13
I got my black belt my first thing we
black belt when I was 16 and I realized
school wasn’t uh wasn’t gonna do it it
wasn’t a learning institution center it
was a fighting center so for me the best
thing to do was get out I quit high
school at 16 for the next year year and
a half I worked for a moving company
until I realized that humping furniture
for a lifetime is not the way to go and
at 18 years old I joined the military
and that’s where my career sort of took
off so it was a combination of the
martial arts where I started to learn
respect and discipline and physically
you know I was in phenomenal shape then
I went the military I learned structure
and I learned more discipline and I
found my niche in the military I became
a military police officer I spent three
years in the military sometime down at
Fort Bragg in North Carolina I spent
some time in Korea got out went to work
for a federal task force and then some
of the guys that that I actually met at
Fort Bragg
they were retiring out of the military
out of the Special Forces units and I
get a call one day to work in Saudi
Arabian this is like 1978 so this is a
time long before anybody in this country
know anything about terrorism or you
know Muslims or Islam or or any of that
I remember going home and telling my
father I’m going to Saudi Arabia to work
and my father sitting at the dining room
table and he looks at me goes Arabia he
goes you know I saw a movie one time
like Lawrence of Arabia I think it’s hot
deer and that’s about as much as anybody
knew like nobody had a clue so I went to
Saudi I went on an 18-month contract I
wound up staying two and a half years I
came back to the US went to work as a
cop it down in North Carolina then moved
up to New Jersey to a Sheriff’s
Department started working there and lo
and behold I went back to Saudi Arabia
again from 1978 to 1980 I was there the
first time who were you representing in
Saudi Arabia
why were you a cop in in Jersey you
going back
as a contractor no the first time I went
as a contractor for an American firm I
was in the Security Division for the
firm they were actually building the
King Khalid military city upon the
Kuwaiti border the second time I went
back I was the chief of investigations
for the Royal Family’s Hospital in
Riyadh I was young I was 27 years old 28
years old and that was from 82 to 84 and
ironically you know it’s kind of weird
as I look back today because the king of
Saudi Arabia today King Salman
mm-hmm was actually at that time the
governor of Riyadh and I used to hang
out with his the head of his security
detail who ironically was also the
executioner you know he would behead
people on Friday so you know he’d go
through his thing and then we go to like
we’d go eat did you actually see any of
it or no you didn’t see I’ve seen many
I’ve seen I used to remember the numbers
I think I’ve seen about 22 beheadings
seen six dismemberments in one stoning
what does that do to your brain to you I
mean how does it get you to a point
where it’s kind of like yeah the first
time is it’s pretty shocking you know
when you see it the first time it’s
almost like in your head you’re watching
this and you’re thinking okay that’s
like their son you know it’s like a joke
like that’s not real or whatever but
it’s it’s cold it’s crude it’s rough I
stayed to another two years 18 months at
that time came back went to work back in
the Sheriff’s Department that I took a
leave of absence from I became warden of
that County Jail I was 30 years old I
guess I took over the jail this is
Jersey this Jersey say County New Jersey
Passaic County Jail it was in Paterson
where I’d sort of grown up and then in
1986 I filed an application with the
NYPD from the time I was young when I
became an MP I wanted to be in new york
city cop but I was I was traveling I was
in Saudi Arabia I was in North Carolina
I was in Jersey I’m back in Saudi Arabia
now the NYPD calls and they said listen
dude
this is it night in July 1986 is your
class if you don’t get in that class
because of my age you’re done you’re
never gonna go now keep in mind I had I
had a gold shield eight stars at a white
shirt I had a car I was the chief I was
30 years old and the warden of the
Passaic County Jail one of the biggest
jobs in New Jersey and I had to make a
decision
am I gonna leave am I gonna you know
give this up give this chief chops up a
chief’s job mm-hmm and and take the job
in the NYPD as a rookie cop and I did
what why did you know look it was a
lifelong dream and to me there’s no
greater Police Department in the world
than the NYPD you know when you watch
movies you know if it’s if it’s not the
LAPD you know it’s LAPD’s a great
department however nothing compares to
this city and you know from the time I
was younger that’s all I wanted to do so
now realize from the time you were
really are you talking like high school
time when you like high school I used to
see the cops I I write about this in my
first book where I used to see these
cops you know most of the time they were
slapping me around telling me go home or
you know get off the street or something
from the time I was young I wanted to be
a cop the more I learned the more I was
exposed to the world there’s no bigger
no better than the NYPD and that’s what
I wanted so in July of 1986 I took off
the gold shield took off the Stars and a
white shirt I went to the Brooklyn
Technical Institute right over here in
Brooklyn Ed Koch was there raised my
right hand I got sworn in and I went
back to Jersey and resigned soon as I
got sworn he and I went back to Jersey
everything make sure was real make sure
it was real all my colleagues all my
friends you know they pretty much said
you’re nuts like to be completely and
did you take a big kid with salary I
mean look at 50% pay 50% 50% pay cut it
was I had a couple times in your career
I’ve done it a couple times and
everybody’s laughed when I’ve done it
and it’s been hard it was a hardship but
it’s always worked out for the best
in the end you know you follow your
dream you follow you know you follow
what’s in your heart and you know you’ll
be better off for it I think so from
there now you have this job you’re NYPD
you’ve wanted to be a cop you’ve been
looking forward to being an NYPD what
happens next
yeah I go to the academy I’m probably
one of the oldest guys in the Academy
I’m 31 years old at the time most of the
kids coming under job they’re 20 21 22
my first assignment I’m in Brooklyn for
six months my training and then I get
assigned right here right down the
street Midtown south precinct
I had a foot-post on West 42nd between
7th and 8th Avenue one block and that
one block all day long I don’t care what
tour you were doing and you were doing a
day’s afternoons or Midnight’s doesn’t
make any difference for eight hours the
entire time you were on that block you
ran your ass off you no man with a gun
robbery in progress you know a rape in a
movie theater somebody jumped off the
building somebody threw somebody on
their train you name it while for eight
hours a day keep in mind this is 1987-88
this was the crack the time of the crack
epidemic it was a bad bad place in Times
Square was booming 24 hours a day so if
you want if you like this job if you
wanted that type of action you couldn’t
be in a better spot and as you wanted it
if you want it what you to kind of
wanted it I wanted this I love I left
the chief’s job to take – oh you wanted
the action I wanted that’s what I wanted
that’s what I came for and that’s what I
got so I was in Midtown south for about
a year and a half in December of 1988 I
applied for narcotics and I wanted a
detective shield I wanted a New York
City detective shield the coveted gold
shield and I was told by everybody
fastest way to get a detective shield is
go to narcotics as an undercover you can
go to get a detective shield in a
precinct squad you can go to a robbery
enhancement unit you can go to narcotics
as an investigator but if you do all
those there’s a track that gets you
they’re probably within three to five
years if you go as an undercover you get
your shield in 18 months and the reason
that that happens is because being an
undercover most of the time you have no
vest you have no gun your sole function
in life is to put yourself in harm’s way
to buy drugs and didn’t you at that time
have earrings you had you wore leather
pants you had long wooden what was it
because I read some part what you want
well I still have the holes at one time
I had like seven you know diamonds and a
gold loop in my ear I had a big goatee I
had a big beard I had hair down I had
hair period but it was at the time it
was down the middle of my back and I get
transferred to narcotics where do they
send me Manhattan North Harlem Spanish
Harlem of Washington Heights it was like
a war zone
I remember going from Midtown south to
Manhattan north sitting out in front of
the 2-6 precinct in front of the
precinct station just standing out there
talking to friends and you’d hear
gunfire like on the block where the
precinct is shots fired down here shots
fired around the corner
shots fired down the other end of the
block is this post Moloch has Joe
Pistone already gone and done his 6
years of undercover with the Bonanno
family when the 200 people got arrested
has that already happened no it was like
around it was kind of sword at the same
time he was a little ahead of me was a
shock when he came out and you’re like
what is this guy doin undercover because
you’re working in a different department
honestly I didn’t even know I didn’t
even know I heard lit when I found out
later somebody called me from Paterson
and said did you see the news and I said
no and they told me all about it and
they see you know who it is
so know this is Joe Pistone let’s get
the hell out of here they said yeah I
didn’t even know he’s with the FBI
Wow that’s the part to me that’s so
impressive for him to stay six years
undercover like that yeah I mean that’s
that’s unheard of actors can act for a
month this guy acted for six years yeah
and listen I was an undercover for just
over two years it’s not easy so I did
that did really well in what I had to do
was involved in a couple bad things I
had some friends that wish
killed my partner was actually shot and
wounded in a gun battle with me I shot
the guy that that shot him you had a
medal for them
you got you got it yeah I actually I got
thirty medals from the NYPD alone
including the Medal of Valor Medal of
Valor was for the detective Hector
Santiago was shot a guy fired through
his windshield and he put his hand up
shot him through the through the arm and
he went out the door the second round
went through the headrest of the car so
luckily he was fast enough to get out of
the car and I want them taken down the
guy that did it and after narcotics
after that I get transferred to the New
York DEA task force and that’s a task
force that consists of New York City
cops New York State Police troopers
investigators and DEA agents and I went
to the task force I was assigned to a
phenomenal group with a guy by the name
of Jerry speciale he was my co case
agent and over the next three and a half
years we wound up in Costa Rica
Guatemala Brazil Ecuador and Colombia
did you do anything with Pablo’s group
word that was no not Pablo’s group a cha
WA was the main target in our case oh
you did something with Cali didn’t you I
got something you did something with
Cali a bunch of major major case work we
seized in about two years over about a
two-year period in excess of about ten
tons of cocaine enough to fill this room
ten tons tons see sixty million in cash
brought back a whole you know locked up
a whole bunch of bad guys I love that
work I liked working into DEA and in
1992 while this is going on while I’m at
DEA I actually went to a dinner one
night an honor Legion dinner it’s a
fraternal group in the NYPD of of all
these heroic cops so to get in the Honor
Legion you have to have a certain metal
or above to get in right to be accepted
so I went to this dinner one night one
of the guys comes over and he says
listen Rudy Giuliani
who was the former US Attorney he’s
running for mayor and we want you to
introduce him this is married vincas his
running against Incans yes you know I
didn’t know Rudy at the time the mr.
Giuliani at the time so I said ok I want
you to do some when he comes in it’s
like five six hundred cops and at the
time I had literally I’d had hair down
to here
I had a big beard I had all these
earrings so they bring me in this thing
they introduced me to Giuliani I shake
his hand and I go out and introduce him
and he gets this wild standing ovation
based on what I see all around him up
III brought him up I introduced got it
and lo and behold then you know within a
couple days somebody called me and said
Rudy called
and wants to meet you for breakfast is
it for what well what’s he want you know
it’s like it’s I’m gonna go meet him I
didn’t even own a suit like you know
what am i doing I want to meet him and
we had a great conversation over about
an hour hour and a half and I talked
about city about narcotics about crime
about all the stuff that was going on in
the city and got to know him and then
from that point on this is like in 1992
I guess until 1994 I actually helped
work on his campaign I brought in guys
volunteers to work on his security
detail constantly fed him information
you know a lot of the stuff that was
gone on the PD that I thought would help
the city and then lo and behold in 1994
he wins and he becomes the mayor of New
York there’s a lot of cities to be
mayor’s in mayor of New York is not like
me and mayor of you know another city
this is no you know why because when
you’re the mayor of New York City it’s
like a national position right you have
the UN you have a hundred and eighty
different countries represented in New
York City you have 12 million people
that live here work here visit here go
to school here on a daily basis you have
a bigger budget the New York City budget
is bigger than probably 40 state budgets
New York City budget is bigger than 40
state budgets yeah so let me ask you
while you were drawing this is the time
when you were driving him on the
weekends and you had one you were guys
driving him on the weekday because
that’s what I read about throughout is
that what it is yes I drove him on the
weekends once in a while but mostly I
supervised I oversaw the
he’s really trusted you he really
trusted me yeah he really trusted you
can tell when you when you read about it
and I think I read somewhere where you
and him both read gods but watch God
Father over fifty times or something
like that all the time yeah all the time
I still do it I said but yeah our
favorite movie I got to know him real
well between 92 or 94 I was with him a
lot so he wins takes over in January of
95 and in May I get a call from my
command to go down and see him at City
Hall January of 95
I know May he calls you but January 95
who are you in New York are you somebody
that is already reputable well-connected
people know who you are you are seen as
somebody that could be futures no Jen
you’re January of 95 I was in the
Department of Correction Rudy called me
down earlier and said look I want you to
I’m put in a new Commissioner in
correction there was a riot that’s what
happened there was a riot at Rikers a
bunch of correction officers got hurt in
Giuliani said look I’m changing out to
come getting rid of the commissioner I’m
bringing somebody new in he’s gonna need
help I want you to go I know you ran the
jail in Jersey go and help him so we
agreed I agreed I’ll do this for six
months not commissioner you’re helping
no I was gonna go as the executive
assistant to the commissioner got it you
know the executive assistant of the
chief of staff for a commissioner you’re
the buffer to the entire executive staff
you’re the buffer to the outside
community so that’s what I’m gonna do
I’m gonna go in the air I’m gonna be his
executive assistant chief of staff well
I went and we agreed Rudy and I agreed
I’m gone for six months not sure what
happened
I didn’t leave for six years I was there
for six months right around the time
that I was thinking I was gonna leave
the mayor made a major change he got rid
of that commissioner he brought in a new
commissioner who was the head of
probation at the time and at 11 o’clock
at night one night I get a call to
Gracie Mansion and I walk in and he says
listen the
Misha is gonna be leaving tomorrow and
we’re bringing it somebody new he said
and I want you to work with him to do
ABCD and all the stuff he says so I’m
looking at him and I said listen I can
I’ll do what I can do I said but he’s
the commissioner and I you know I can’t
there’s only so much I can do as the
chief of staff I don’t want euros oh I
forgot no you’re not gonna be the chief
of staff you’re gonna be the first
deputy now the first deputy commissioner
is the number two guy in charge and I’m
looking at him and I said listen could
we talk about this because I ran a jail
a big jail bad jail this is the biggest
jail system in the country Rikers has
ten facilities there’s six facilities in
the five boroughs he’s like no we just
talked about it it’s fine you’re going
to do this so you were pushing back but
you don’t want this job I didn’t you
know I was nervous you know I’ve done it
before
I actually thought I could do it I
wasn’t worried about it but it’s a big
job and he said no you’re gonna do it
and the next day he appointed the new
commissioner appointed me first deputy
and boom we took off so from that point
on for the next two and a half years I
was the first deputy and then the
Commissioner retired did you know this
coming or no okay so did he retire young
was he now he went to he does what
everybody else does they go to academia
and the you know professor at this
College that College came in one
afternoon around two o’clock in the
afternoon he says uh closes the door and
we had a great relationship his name was
Mike Jacobson he says I got good news
and bad news
I said what’s giving the bad news first
he said bad news is I’m leaving I’m like
really he said yep he says I just once
Sita mayor he said good news is you’re
getting a job I said no I I think maybe
that that might have been the bad news
part and we laughed and about an hour
later the mayor called me over to City
Hall and says tomorrow morning you’re
being appointed this is that eight
hundred and thirty five million dollar
budget thirteen thousand employees
this is that one you’re talking about
130,000 inmate admissions per year a
year yeah about a 900 million dollar
budget a you know 13,000 staff how are
you at this time I am let me see that
was 1990 98 I’m gonna take over so I was
43 42 43 yeah and let me ask you your
personality right now I’m sitting with
you you seem very you know easygoing you
seem very chill you seem very you know
ease but is that the personality back
then because I’ve read some stuff about
you like you know what it is like you
know how you talk to somebody in there
at a different faith and you’re talking
about how they were at their 20s and 30s
you ask around and they say he was a
fierce competitor he was cold he was
vicious like if they talk about certain
people in certain industries to do what
you were doing you kind of have to be
that way aren’t you like aren’t you paid
to kind of be look yeah I was an
extremely aggressive manager I was a
no-nonsense manager I think I’m very and
you if you ask the people that work for
me
they’ll tell you I’m extremely firm I’m
very fair my management style is pretty
simplistic if you work and you work hard
and you produce you’ll get ahead if you
don’t you got to go I’m not big on
transferring failure you see a lot of
times guys in this position and he’s
doing this thing and he’s not doing well
or he’s he’s messing up well you know a
lot of bosses will take him and they’ll
move him from here to here I’m not big
on that because if he failed over here
he’s gonna fail over here how you do one
thing to tell you everything that’s what
and then and then more importantly you
create dissension it create animosity
you create sort of a cancer within the
agency so for me it’s sort of black and
white you do well you produce and that
was the that was the concept you
mentioned teams earlier teams though the
the acronym stands for total efficiency
accountability and management system was
recognized by Harvard the the
innovations in American government
program and it’s basically how I created
the internal management system and
countability system for Rikers keep in
mind when I took over Rikers or when I
went to Rikers in 1995 we averaged a
hundred and fifty stabbings and
slashings per month with the highest
violence rate of any jail or prison
system in the nation it was the most
violent the most corrupt the most
dangerous crime ridden dirty filthy
mismanaged and in six years that I was
there we took it from the worst of the
worst in the country and turned it into
an international model for efficiency
accountability and safety some some
interesting stats on what happened well
there was a there was a ninety 93 or 94
percent reduction in stabbings and
slashings a 40 percent reduction in
overtime spending now keep in mind when
I took over we were spending 112 million
a year in overtime I knocked that down
by 40 40 50 percent assaults on staff I
knocked it down by 40 how did you do
what did you do with that like like is
it almost if you’re gonna play dirty you
have to play your game as well what’s a
little bit of that it’s a little bit of
that but you know what it is more than
more than that far more than that look
at Jack Welsh and GE how did he manage
he managed based on data data collection
Home Depot Walmart how do they manage
what what do they do to achieve what
they want done right they collect data
they could they have performance
measures they first of all they have
goals of the goals and objectives they
create performance measures to get to
those goals and objectives and then they
have an accountability system internally
that goes after those metrics goes after
those performance measures and you have
to hold people accountable to get there
so slashings and stabbings for example I
wanted I wanted the violence reduced
nobody understood this concept overtime
was out of control
sick time was out of control for every
day yours you know the correction
officers in the department at the time
you had in there in the budget 12 days a
year sick time in the budget /
correction officer so they could be up
to up – they could be sick for up to 12
days it was in the budget anything over
that
that they were over that 12 day period
1.6 million dollars that’s what it cost
the agency my average when I took over
the Department of Correction was twenty
two days a year that’s thirty five
million dollars that it cost the city so
when I came in and I looked at this I
said you know what the overtime and the
sick time is driven by one thing it’s
driven by violence if you drive down the
violence you’re gonna drive down the
overtime the sick time and everybody is
looking at me like I had three heads how
do you drive down violence though well
you go out the violence thing is easy
the violence thing is holding the
inmates accountable for criminal conduct
and here’s what I had a punishments and
bigger punishment when I came into the
department yeah I
the first stabbing the first major bad
thing that I saw to Spanish kids took a
black kid held him down on the ground
took a chicken bone sharpened and they
gave about 70 stitches in his back they
carved LK into his back the initials for
Latin Kings and my guys came to my
office and I said all right what happens
now what are we doing with these guys
they said what I want to punitive
segregation as I know but what are you
charged with
well they don’t we don’t charge them
criminally why they said because the
Bronx DA won’t prosecute it I said wait
wait a minute
they held the kid down on the ground to
give me 70 stitches if I walked outside
the facility if I walked outside this
hotel and I went out on the street and I
took a small razor blade and I nicked
you in your hand I’d get charged with
assault possession of a weapon and who
knows what else right in jail you mean
to tell me you could just about murder
somebody and nobody’s getting charged
criminally all right that’s gonna stop
so I called the Bronx da and I said
listen he said I don’t have the manpower
to prosecute all these cases I said you
have it now because I’m gonna send
people to you I’m gonna send
investigators up to the Bronx I’ll do
whatever you need but I can’t this can’t
be a criminal haven for criminal active
interest thing so how soon did that
happen how soon did that standard get
applied with
in a month okay and then how some did
everybody how the inmates realize what’s
happening there so I mean obviously news
travels pretty fast in three months we
saw a substantial reduction but then
there’s other things I enhance the
emergency service unit to go out and
start doing searches of the dormitories
you know guys slashed and stabbed they
need weapons right where’s the weapons
so you start looking for the weapons you
start holding the inmates accountable
you start holding the staff accountable
to make sure that they’re going out and
doing the job they’re supposed to do in
the wrong duty that’s the piece on the
violence and I’m making it simplistic
it’s far more complicated but
simplistically that’s that’s sort of
what we were doing
now when the violence comes down you
have less hospital runs say you say
there’s a confrontation between two
witnesses this inmate gets cut this
inmate gets cut they go to another
hospital this guy needs two officers on
him you need two on you those two come
from a facility so now you have four
officers they have to go to the hospital
you have to backfill the positions at
the facility you now have four eight
guys on overtime and people in you know
headquarters and in City Hall they
couldn’t figure out where all the
overtime was coming from so let me ask
you where did you learn this because you
mentioned Jack Welch are you reading
business but at that time were no
honestly are you reading David Osborne
wrote a book called reinventing
government and when I was fooling around
with Giuliani in 1992 from 1992 to 1994
Giuliani had the book in the car and I
went and got the book for myself and I
read the book what gets measured gets
done that’s the thing the only thing I
remember about it now but I basically
took that book the business concept of
management and said you know what it
works in business it works in Home Depot
it works in Walmart that works in
General Electric in other places as Wow
and I said why can it work here so when
you look at overall stats right violence
over time routine maintenance you know
they’d shut down a complete wing of a
jail system a complete wing because
they didn’t have a key why won’t it take
to make a key well it takes three days
three days makes three takes three days
I would have meetings and I would lose
my mind it takes three days to make a
key well you have to put the order and
you got to do a thing and then it’s got
to get approve and it’s got this really
so that key that took three days to get
made cost me $200,000 extra for that
three-day period because I had to move
inmates to another facility are you
crazy no making a key takes about four
minutes so we’re gonna streamline the
process to get to the key maker and
we’re gonna make the key in about an
hour how much should that happens today
in the government it’s amazing I
remember being in the Army they should
say government spends money like they
buy products that are not even worth
that much and they’re paying over for
just because somebody doesn’t know how
to negotiate and someone’s not hold them
accountable well she does get the
negotiation you just said the magic word
it’s all about accountability
accountability the negotiation part is a
part of the accountability you need to
hold people accountable how much are you
making at that time as a commissioner of
a correction about 140 grand you see
that’s the problem it’s Balto you know
because I when you look at how police
officers get paid right so the current
way at least when you look it up a
police officer nor who is not the safest
place versus maybe another city in
Jersey my son’s a cop indoors is and I
read that that’s great the fact that
he’s 32 years old right 33 years old
yeah when you read that and you say okay
well copper in a safer place you know
Beverly Hills 90210 nicer zip code
they’re getting paid more yet they’re
doing less to workers there is no crime
than a guy in Detroit as a cops making
$36,000 it just doesn’t make any sense
so the areas where they’re working
double time they’re getting paid less
than the areas where they’re not getting
any kind of things going on they’re
getting paid more I think there’s a
little bit of a flaw during the in the
in the math but there’s a flaw listen
it’s not only a flaw the government’s
the city government state governments
they can only afford with it can afford
how do you solve that no how do you
solve that in you could have to matter
what you have to hope yeah you have to
have hope
the
you have cops like my son you know and
this is a true story what I’m gonna tell
you he was he started his career in
Passaic County where I where I was and
about three years in he got laid off and
I called him up to my house and I said
listen I’m gonna help you get a job and
I got some great places that make an
enormous amount of money and I’m gonna
call the chief and I’m gonna see if you
can go here you know to Ridgewood New
Jersey or you know Paramus New Jersey
cops are a white shield uniformed cop
making a hundred twenty thirty thousand
you that’s amazing right there okay my
son comes in he says that’s alright dad
I know where I’m going as we go easy
don’t get mad but I know where I’m going
and I’ve already planned it and I want
to go there I said we’re going he’s I’m
going to Newark and I just looked at him
I said dude you go into Newark it’s
probably one of the lowest paying jobs
in the state and it’s like the eighth
highest crime rate in America you’re
going to Newark and I said why don’t you
come up here while I live and he looks
at me this is God’s honest truth he says
that when your wife has geese and this
swimming pool out back she calls the
cops he goes I am NOT chasing geese I
run a school that’s what I say so so I
said so I I tried I tried the money
thing you know like he does so he’s a
true baby and I said listen I says what
about the money what about your career
he goes oh I’m talking to the guy that
took a 50% pay cut because he wanted to
follow his dream how’s his relationship
with you there’s the admirers are living
up admiration for my son literally is my
best friend he’s my best friend
you know he’s my closest confidant he’s
my best friend how do the same relation
my dad my dad’s my best friend the world
now I can’t even describe it you that
affinity if I want to be happy my
husband my best friend so I’m assuming
you’re big Yankees fan
absolutely you were telling me earlier
something about the logo so you what is
this special thing about this he has his
logo see this logo yes in 1877 the NYPD
created a Medal of Honor on that Medal
of Honor there’s a logo just like this
that’s where this logo came from Wow
because in 1923 the New York Yankees
adopted it so they
this close connection there’s this tie
between New York City cops and the New
York Yankees and that’s one of the
reasons and that’s you said who design
at Tiffany’s design Tiffany’s cast on it
at the time and you said the one when
you got your Commissioner badge the
first one that was given in hate and
something was Teddy Roosevelt it was
about Teddy Roosevelt once the the head
of the Commission in 1897 while 1897 and
a years later you’re a fortieth yep
police commissioner let’s go back to
that part so obviously you have certain
systems that’s working in the jail
you’re running 13,000 employees hundred
forty hundred thirty thousand inmates
that are coming through regularly you
have all these different
responsibilities that you’re doing nine
hundred million dollar budget you’re
changing the numbers you’re bringing on
overtime from 120 million dollars forty
percent lower all of these things you
made the decisions your keys gonna cost
two hundred thousand dollars because you
got to move people wait three days so
now how do you go from there to
Commissioner of NYPD I mean that’s a you
know that happened the priests story to
that is 11 days earlier the New York
City Police Commissioner Howard safer
resigned retired rehired so this is not
a positive note no negative no no wasn’t
kind of he was leaving he was done and
the mayor had to fill that position so
at the end of the 11 days there were two
people in the running Joe Dunn was the
chief of Department for the NYPD’s the
number three in command and there was me
that they were looking at the mayor
interviewed him the mayor interviewed me
and for eleven days we had no clue who
it was nobody we didn’t have an idea are
you talking to him throughout that 11
day period or not I had with him I you
know constant they’re still
communication there’s communications but
he he’s not saying a word and on August
I think it was August 19th it was a
Friday night mayor called my house about
11:30 that night and said tomorrow
morning
you’re gonna be appointed maybe in New
York City’s 40th police commissioner so
you go from having 13,000 staff members
to having 55,000 you go from a billion
dollar budget to having a three and a
half billion dollar budget most
importantly you’re not dealing with the
inmates but you have to worry about the
12 million people that visit live work
go to school in a city on a daily basis
the next morning I went to City Hall and
I was appointed
New York City’s 40th police commissioner
how’d you feel at the time I can’t say
how I felt at the time I was sort of
floating on a cloud it’s sort of
overwhelming you know it’s it’s it’s a
big enormous job because you know
sometimes when you’re in that moment it
goes so fast that you don’t even have
time to appreciate it yeah but you know
what I’ve had in my career I’ve had
about four or five of those correction
Commissioner getting appointed as
commissioner getting appointed to the
NYPD as commissioner I remember in 2003
I was sent to Iraq by President Bush as
the interim Minister of Interior and I
remember getting there and I was there
for less than 24 hours and my press guys
come to me and they said commissioned
the press they know you’re here now so
you have to do a press conference so
we’re gonna go over and do the press
conference and I said okay so where we
going we’re going through this big hall
in this in the Republican Guard palace
and we get over there and this is big
massive throne that’s the only that’s
the only way I could describe it it’s a
throne made out of like tiger skin or
leopard skin or something I forget what
it was and they said okay you’re gonna
go up on the on the dais up there and
you’re gonna sit in that chair and then
and I said guys I gotta sit in that
chair they said yeah I said why hey so
cuz that’s worth presses can’t you get a
normal chair they said listen that was
the dumbest chair just go up there and
sit in the chair and I can remember
thinking in my head really that was
Saddam’s chair like Saddam had meetings
here like two months ago and I’m sitting
in his chair so it’s that kind of stuff
in my career I can remember things like
that it was kind of nuts Shh showcase so
now you’re NYPD Commissioner everyone
around the states knows you you’re
always on TV you’re being written about
talked about paper every day there’s
something because you’re the man in
charge you’re the guy that on the whole
show
what’s between then and a next call and
I’m talking to call from the top where
the commander in chief makes the call
what happens during that time I think
the biggest thing was 846 on the morning
of September 11th I was the commissioner
I was in my office
I was actually taking a shave I just
finished exercising I’m standing there
taking a shave and my chief of staff
came in banging on the door I opened the
door and I said what is it would it
would eat what are you doing he said a
plain just did Tower one I said all
right calm down
and I thought it was I thought I was
gonna look out the window and see you
know a small aircraft sticking out the
window or something
I looked at the damage of the building I
could see it on it I had a TV above our
tread my treadmill and I could see the
damage so I actually walked out of my
office with the towel wrapped around me
went into my conference room pulled back
the shades and I could see the building
it’s only about quarter mile away I
looked at the top of the building and I
could see the damage and I thought
that’s no small plane I don’t know what
that is
I even had doubts whether it was a plane
at all I didn’t know what it was I
called the mayor I said look I’ll meet
you at 7:00 World Trade Center which was
right across the street from Tower one
that’s where our command center was is
that 7 World Trade Center over 75
Barclays Oh 75 Barclays is where you
guys know 75 Barclays where I got
trapped right I went downtown went to go
to 7 World Trade and when we got to
Vesey Street there were cops on that
corner stopping the traffic and my guy
said look I got the Commissioner in the
car and a sergeant ran up to the Kearney
says he salutes me and he says
commissioner you can’t get onto the
block he said they’re jumping I said
what he said they’re jumping and I had
no conception of what he was taught I
didn’t know what he was talking about I
get out of the car and I looked down the
street and you know people were jumping
you saw that you you saw that taking
place yeah but listen I know people saw
it on TV but in the early minutes in
that first it’s in that first 30 minutes
in that first 15 because I was down
there within seven or eight minutes I
probably watched two or three dozen
people jump they were coming down some
two or three at a time and they were
landing on Vesey they were landing in
the courtyard between Tower one and
Tower two and they were hitting the over
headings of the building so you could
hear it I was up the block I was about a
hundred yards up the block and you can
hear him hitting that overhang and
you know exploding so the mayor got the
air within three or four minutes after
the second plane I was standing in front
of Tower one in Tower two when the
second plane slammed through the north
side of the tower I could hear the
aviation pilots or helicopter pilots in
the NYPD saying that a second airliner
just land through Tower two and that’s
when I realized we were under attack
what happens Thanks Giuliani gets there
within two or three minutes I told him
what I had just seen we actually walked
down to West Street we went to the
command center where the fire
department’s executive staff was so was
the first Deputy Commissioner was the
chief of Department the chief of
operations there chaplain father judge
couple NYPD guys that I knew we talked
to them we were there about 10 15
minutes and we left went back to 75
Barclay Street where I initially met him
we’re gonna put him in an office there
so that he could call the White House we
wanted to make sure we had air support
we’re gonna make sure we were getting
resources from the government and he he
went into this small office at 75
Barclay we’re standing there our staff
is all around us
he’s sitting in front of me on a phone
he’s talking to the White House and all
the sudden he hangs up the phone and he
looks at me he says that’s not good I
said what is it he said I think they
said that the Pentagon just got hit and
they’re evacuating the White House I
didn’t even have time to grasp what he
said because as he said that the
building we were in started to shake
like a freight train was coming through
the side of it the door slammed open and
Joe Esposito was my chief of Department
the door slams open in he yells
everybody get down it’s coming down and
I didn’t know if he was talking about
the building we were in or something
else all the windows blew out the doors
blew open the place filled with dust and
gas and debris and it was over in about
12 seconds and it was mass chaos outside
we couldn’t breathe so we we actually
got trapped inside there we couldn’t get
out the way we went in because that was
on the outside
and so we were gonna try to get through
the building all the doors were locked
we were physically trapped in this
office suffocating and all of a sudden
one of the doors opened and there’s
these two Spanish guys that were
maintenance guys with a ton of keys on
them and I said those keys for these
doors is yes sir
I said open these doors I need to get to
Church Street I need to go that way
and he opened the doors and off we went
and we got out of the building otherwise
I could remember actually thinking I’ve
been in gun battles I’d been stabbed
I’ve been shot at I’m gonna die
suffocating in this room because I can’t
breathe we eventually got out and mayor
Giuliani is with you the entire time
where you put him at that office to just
no no he was with us the entire time the
whole time you’re trying to get into
Church streets so he’s good and we did
we you know we got through the doors we
got out on to church you know it was
weird we got to Church Street that
building the whole front of that
building is solid white you know
big windows Florida a floor-to-ceiling
windows and I remember walking into that
lobby and looking out at those windows
and they were white there was solid
white and I’m like what is that
what’s house what is that we went over
to the circular vestibule door push the
door open got outside and there were two
things that struck me now we are
literally we’re probably three or four
blocks from the towers right there was
this much dust on the ground where we
were all over and there was no sound
it was absolutely no sound no birds no
sirens no horns no nothing it was like
when you walked out that door it’s like
somebody’s put earphones on you and you
couldn’t hear anything
it was really strange and then somebody
told us that the building came down she
had this moment Mayor Giuliani gets a
call he realizes pentagons got hit his
ball white house is being evacuated all
eyes on New York
everybody’s watching to see what’s gonna
happen what happens next we got out on
the church street you know when you talk
about leadership and you’re talking
about some of the stuff I’ve done and
people credit me for things my
management style
I remember getting out onto Church
Street and the mayor turning to his
press secretary it says get me a pole
camera right now and I can remember and
I know him well I can
looking at him thinking really we’re
gonna do a press conference here like I
don’t know if this is the time but it
wasn’t the time and that’s not what he
was doing he already knew in his mind
that the entire world’s watching
and somebody has to tell them and it’s
gonna be okay and when you think back to
that day and you look at that footage
you’ll see him we’re literally walking I
mean we’re we’re in motion and he they
get the pool camera they get him up to
him they get the microphone stick it in
his face and he said listen here’s what
I want you know people stay in your
house you know don’t panic it’s bad yes
but it’s gonna be okay
we’re gonna get through this and between
that and the first press conference
which was later that afternoon I can’t
tell you how many people thousands of
people that have come up to me in
airports walking down the street in
different towns in the West Coast all
over the country where I’ve been where
people have come up to me and say you
made me feel safe because I had no damn
idea what was gonna happen
and if it wasn’t for you and it wasn’t
for Giuliani I don’t know what would
happen I don’t know what I was thinking
that you guys made me feel safe even
even people who disagree with you and
they’ve said that as well even people
who were kind of like you know I don’t
like the way he handled XYZ when it came
down to how that 9/11 he meant was
handled we wasn’t have anybody else in
that position that we we did the best we
could but I think I think the
combination worked and worked well that
led to President Bush giving you call
how many years after we would that’s an
oh one I think oh four I live in I live
you know – I live in January of Oh – I
retire I’m done with my government
service so I thought until May about
three I was actually at you know I’m in
Manhattan I’m going to Barneys to buy
some shirts my cell phone rings and it’s
it’s somebody at the Pentagon they said
the president wants you to come meet
with secretary Rumsfeld and then I wound
up going to Iraq for four months as the
Minister of Interior to get them up and
running and to get the new Minister of
Interior in place my wife wasn’t too
happy about that given it was a war zone
but I went I did what the president
wanted got it done came back then I
thought my government’s
service was over for sure than in
December you know the president gets
reelected November of four within about
a week after he gets elected re-elected
I get a call from the White House
they’re sending me some questions and
they send me those questions is this
Dana Powell or D novena palutena Powell
yeah
deena man you got a good memory yeah
yeah Deana Powell sends me some
questions answer them get it back to us
at which time I find out that I’m being
considered to take Tom Ridge his job in
Homeland Security I’ve already run the
largest Police Department largest jail
system this was a job it was a new job
the Department of Homeland Security had
just been created on the ridge he put it
all together 22 federal agencies and a
staff of about 180,000 people I was
ready I thought I could do it I knew I
could do it the president knew I can do
it we had that conversation him and I
actually is that when he had just come
back from a Canada uh how will I know
this leg because I’ve studied your story
the night before there’s a part the
night before where you were in tears
because you turn down the job the first
time then this I’m like I’m curious to
know how what was the you know you were
conflicted what were you thinking about
the night where you and your wife were
like baby I don’t know if I want it like
I don’t know what that conversation was
you know it was it was the Thanksgiving
it was either the night before the night
after Thanksgiving you know they called
me and said this is it you know the the
president’s gonna ask you if you want
the job and I thought if I take this job
like my my life savings now at this
point is pretty substantial you know
I’ve been in the private sector for
three years I was making good money but
I’m gonna have to give up a substantial
piece of this in the millions day you
know you have to be specific that’s a
hundred thousand shares that $50 I saw
was like it was like eight million
dollars they were basically telling me
you got a forfeit
yeah and I was at the Taser Company
closer yeah I taste a stock I’m like I
you know I don’t know you know I don’t
know if I want to do that and my wife
was like is it really worth it I don’t
know I don’t think so I told my wife I
said okay I’m done I’m not gonna do it
you sure I said yeah okay so I’m gonna
wait until they call and then I’m gonna
tell them so Dina calls I said look I
gotta talk to you I don’t think
gonna happen and she said hold on and in
the card got on the phone and Andy card
was the chief of staff for the president
I forget the entire conversation but he
basically says look you know there’s all
that stuff in the press where the
president’s looking at this guy and that
guy in this person in that person he’s
only interested in one person he wants
you to take the job
and I remember I’m sitting in my office
and my wife sitting there across from me
and she’s looking at me and she’s going
no no don’t no and I’m like and I’m
going yes sir uh-huh and I’m scared that
that’s like I don’t want it I don’t want
to say nothing out loud it’s gonna give
her a way that I’m doing this and I
agreed I’m gonna go see the president I
hang up the phone I told her I said look
I can’t say no to the president I’m not
gonna do it I said you know let me I’m
gonna go see him this wasn’t like this
is like I think on a Monday or something
so I got to go see him on Wednesday and
I get in the car and I Drive to DC me
and Tony Carr Bonetti Giuliani’s chief
of staff we drove down together we went
to the JW Marriott and I would have
forgot that if you didn’t remind me and
I can remember the president flying over
the building here in the helicopters and
Tony were sitting in the hotel suite and
he looks at me says okay start getting
ready cuz he’s gonna call you soon as he
lands and as soon as he got in boom they
called I went over to the White House
would they snuck me in got to the White
House and the president I walked in give
me a hug he said I’m looking for a
secretary of homeland you want it I said
yes sir
he said sit down he said I want to tell
you why you’re picked and and that was
it so in that moment when you’re going
through that decision this is this is
not a regular position now you’ve been
commissioner of a New York correction
Commissioner of NYPD sat in the chair
with Saddam Hussein you’ve had some
interesting experiences there and now
you’re being called by the President to
say here’s Homeland Security it’s your
job while you’re going through that and
I’m talking to scar Moochie earlier are
you sitting there thinking about all the
research due diligence everything that’s
about to happen and you’re not thinking
about that in that moment no got it so
you’re not thinking anyway I’m gonna do
my job I’m gonna be called up on and I
know how to handle this I’m the best guy
if you’re talking about the job
I’m thinking about you know and I’m sure
Anthony you know he’s focused on the job
you focus on the job you focus on what’s
gonna happen what do you have to do you
know and in my mind I was four steps
ahead that all right you know
okay staffing agencies they you know I
was I was there already in my head
before I even talked to the president
when I knew I was being considered I
wasn’t thinking about anything but how
am I gonna do this and have as much
success because I’ve had my whole career
I’ve never failed ever in fact not only
have I never failed
I had enormous success I’m gonna do the
same thing here so that’s where my head
is what you never realized what nobody
realizes unless you are positioned for
one of these jobs you come out of high
school you go to college you go to law
school you clerked for a federal judge
you go to a major firm you become a US
Attorney you become a judge and then you
get a job and the whole time you’re like
mr. goody two-shoes right down the road
until you get to where you’re going if
you’ve had a life getting these jobs are
hard and I can remember there were times
when I was actually being vetted we had
a conference room in our office Giuliani
and I it was it had to be 25 feet long
30 feet long major conference here in
New York City
Tom scored in that conference room on
the conference table every set of taxes
that I had since I was 18 years old on
that table come on no I’m not joke every
set of Terrace every tax this is before
you take the job on once you took the
job once you once you’re in the process
one so once you’re gone except Homeland
Security Homeland Security once you
accept the nomination does the world
know about it yet or not oh yeah they
know okay president and that mean that’s
what everybody okay so from that point
on you got a you know every speech
you’ve ever get given every application
you’ve ever filled out for a job every
every taxes every year’s taxes all this
stuff you have to have I had a group of
people sitting around there like lawyers
and analysts and all these people just
going through this stuff one thing after
what are they looking for oh because of
this one thing you should resign no
because they’re looking for
inconsistencies there
looking for I think most importantly
what they’re looking for are where could
you get tripped up in Congress at a
congressional hearing
who’s gonna not like your position got
it that you said in this speech this
thing who’s not gonna like that and have
a problem with it and what’s ironic as I
learned I’d say 90% of the people in
Congress that would scrutinize me they
could never even get my job they could
never get that job of course they
couldn’t be vetted right they’ve never
had an executive position they’ve been
in politics the whole time they couldn’t
do it they can’t do it which is kind of
frustrating when you’re going through
this process especially when you flunk
out of the process because you come to
the realization that the people that
scrutinized you or that had all this
negative stuff to say about you they
couldn’t hold a candle to you let me ask
you this so they’re you know you this
kind of takes me to you know the movie a
few good men where the whole parts going
back and forth then you can’t handle the
truth you want the truth you can’t and
then at the end he says you need me like
you know like not everybody can do my
job and so I’m sitting there and I’m
like okay Code Red Code Red you know you
got a Duke order but we don’t put it in
a manual that there’s Code Red no one
talks about it okay what they did to you
know private such-and-such Santiago out
I think that was a kid’s name and then
you sit down and say it has to be an sob
to be able to run you know that camp to
be able to do to work but here’s you
know that’s a really really good point
it’s a really good point especially that
thing you need me that’s logic but
that’s not reality because those guys in
Washington that’ll give a damn really
they don’t give a damn but what are the
links that came up what were the things
so I read all of them I read every
single one of the controversial stuff
that came up on yeah I had a I had a
Danny you had a nanny but okay I had
that was what the 14 months that taxes
weren’t paid for her right that was 14
months or whatever the number was and I
ironically what a lot of people don’t
know as soon as I was drew
I actually I paid the taxes I paid the
penalties I paid the fines you $220,000
and five
whatever was yeah I forget what I paid
all that stuff
immediately after like in probably
January February of five then there’s
all these investigations that start
right and you start getting scrutinized
the press is pushing one way the
prosecutors are following up the press
and they’re feeding each other they feed
each other so you go through this
process where now it’s no longer with
the nanny
anything you’ve ever done in your entire
life that anybody has a problem with
they have now crawled out from under a
rock and they’re making calls to every
press yet about what was them like okay
if you went to prison
and you did three years I think a lot of
people should be doing the same time as
well and they have similar cases if not
worse one of them was the one I pulled
up that was the quarter-million by the
Israeli businessman that give you a no
interest free that’s a completely false
so that’s what I read so I’m gonna kind
of list some of them that I remember
okay so now it’s reported or which one
I’m talking it’s not it’s reported it’s
on Wikipedia and for some reason they
refused to pull it off I can’t figure
out why an Israeli businessman give me
an interest-free loan that I never paid
back and I was charged with a bribe and
bribe receiving that’s what it says on
Wikipedia bottom line is there was no
interest-free loan it was a personal
loan I paid interest
I was not charged with bribery and there
was no bribery charges okay so that’s
number one so put that a sign okay but
here’s here’s why that became an issue
because that loan that he lent me was
actually when I went to Iraq I was built
in a house and I was built I didn’t know
how much time I was gonna be in Iraq I
was building a house I was making a
really good a lot of money and I needed
to make sure that while I was gone
I’m gonna be making a hundred forty
thousand a year now and I was a
majorette amazing this is this is o3o so
this this is this is post you being the
CEO of a Giuliani’s company it was
government during that time during that
time is that you started your own or is
it you know joining as a CEO Rudy
Giuliani’s karate I got it so I know you
left afterwards you started some
contracts
three we’re working together got it I
get a call from the White House to go to
Iraq I said yes
when I said yes I have to accept their
salary
so I go from making a million dollars a
year to make an owner of 40,000 a year
so I want to make sure that I can finish
my house yeah I borrow 250,000 from a
friend and I go about my business on the
conflict of interest or on the financial
disclosure I don’t even remember what it
was one of them when my accountants and
my staff we started filling out all the
stuff because they didn’t make monthly
payments on this thing on this loan it
was just a personal loan that I was
gonna pay back we didn’t put it on the
conflict of interest report that was a
federal charge that is a federal charge
yeah it’s full statement or I’ve gotten
whatever it’s a federal charge okay fair
enough so that’s one the nanny
remember I said I paid the taxes I paid
the fines that paid the months but okay
so listen six counts is that a troll
charge though yes the nanny is a federal
charges and they charge me now was they
considered two years right that I had
the nanny okay so to you two counts of
failing to pay payroll tax two counts of
failing to put it on my IRS documents
and two counts of failing to tell my tax
preparer so for the nanny that I paid
cash six federal counts they charge me I
Got News for you I challenge you I
challenge you to go in any court docket
in this country and see where they’ve
done that to anybody else in the country
never happens so let me ask you another
question here on that the part with Karl
Rove I don’t know how you feel about
Karl Rove and I don’t know your
relationship with them the other part
where you read about him and say well
this was a way that Karl Rove brought
you in to taint you indirectly to change
Rudy said that’s nonsense so you’re not
you’re not putting any value behind that
one okay so you’re not even saying that
that’s the summit for the nomination for
so mayor Giuliani wouldn’t get the next
nomination No okay got it
so now so this happens you go up you
apologize you say you let the people
down you all you said is please
allow me to come back and be able to
spend time with my wife and kids the
sooner I can do that allow me that but
you didn’t go out there and say denyin
yeah but you just kind of said hey if I
did it I yeah I’ll deal with it yeah so
okay and that reminds me of a scene from
Judge which I don’t know if you’ve seen
a movie the judge with Robert Duvall I
don’t know if you’ve seen it or not the
end scene you got to see it’s a very
unique especially you I think you would
really appreciate the ending of that
movie it’s with Robert Downey jr. and
Duvall and if you know Duvall obviously
you know Godfather you would love to vol
I or handles it he said if I did the
crime I want to pay for it because I’ve
been a judge for the last 42 years if I
did it I did it
so now you go and you do three years you
come out that entire process that
happens pretty fast right when you go
through that what are you now thinking
yourself that you’re out you know and
what what did that time that you did in
prison what did that do to you
did that help you think about what I’m
thinking it’s not only it’s not only the
time in prison it’s from the beginning
of the process to the time I came home
it’s all one it’s all one because it’s
it’s like this blur of it’s a blur of
stuff that you go through that you never
expected to go through how do you get
targeted huh you know really are they
attacking me because of this nanny thing
really you know they’re gonna charge me
for this you know not having the loan on
a financial disclosure why did you say
yeah I did the crime if I did it you
know I have to do face to crime well
I’ll tell you why first of all when you
are fighting federal criminal charges
it’s a fight for your life literally
it’s a fight for your life because that
felony conviction is a life sentence of
collateral consequence that’s gonna
crucify you personally financially and
professionally so that that’s number one
if you fight it if you say I didn’t do
it is that is that what the fight is or
or you can’t win you can’t win you only
have the constitutional rights you think
you have if you have the money to pay
for them how much influence did mayor
Giuliani or President Bush have at the
time to be able to help you with that
the only one that could have helped me
was President Bush
why didn’t he most of them will not what
why not don’t he
he nominee he brought you up it doesn’t
make any difference yeah any hard
feelings about that at all I get it
most politicians don’t have the courage
to stand up and say this is wrong was
there any motive behind it or was it
just just you know no no no they just
don’t have the character practices you
can’t fight the US government unless you
are a multi multi-millionaire or being
here you just can’t and I’ll explain why
during the whole course of this thing
from 2006 to 2009 you really go back to
oh five oh five two oh nine I was
averaging legal bills of about a hundred
thousand a month a hundred thousand then
closer to the end we’re up to an or
fifty month so in October of 2009 I was
remanded the judge didn’t like the fact
in my case my attorney one of my
attorneys he sent an email to the
Washington Times and he said be in court
on this day because we found
prosecutorial misconduct
we found the government suppress
evidence they suborn perjury found all
this stuff be in court on that day well
the judge found out when he found out
instead of addressing it he remanded me
revoke my bail put me in jail and told
me he’s gonna suspend my attorneys again
for the third time well at this point
I’m out of money
I can’t keep doing I can’t you can’t
keep doing this in an October of night
of 2009 in that month that I was
remanded my legal bill for one month was
for a month 30 days my legal bill was
four hundred seventy six thousand
dollars how do you how do you fight that
how do you do that and at that point I
told my attorneys I said go see the
prosecutors so I quit I’ll take a plea
tell me what I’m pleading to I’ll plead
whatever they want I can’t do this
anymore because my wife and kids are
gonna live in the street if I keep doing
it that is the problem with the federal
system and that’s being targeted when
you get into the system and you see the
flaws and failures and you see you know
I thought it was just me
let me ask you this other question you
know I had I have friends who
were cops when I got out of the military
a lot of people become cops you know the
whole thing is when you get out of the
UN Fort Bragg go be a cop you know go be
fire about it go be ups you’ll get ten
points you get whatever that runs on
your score so my friends want to be cops
and I would ask myself so tell me what
is it a be a cop and one of my friends
got kicked out of being a PD himself so
one day I’m sitting I said so tell me
what happened and you know how there’s
like different stories there’s a one
story which is what man I just did what
everybody else was doing and I said yeah
but what happened three months later six
months or 12 months I mean this is my
body this is my we’re hanging out
together I mean he would tell you the
story right now himself I will tell you
one thing that happened so for him what
he was doing was he was doing steroids
and was selling steroids to other cops
ain’t no cops do that a lot it’s a it’s
a whole different thing he said the one
thing that happened with me is I really
started thinking I’m above the law and I
started using some of my power against
civilians and I started feeling within
my family
I started feeling on my wife with my mom
and dad with my siblings my peers I felt
like I was above the law because you can
say anything to me because I have the
badge and it was an LAPD guy and that
badge gave me a lot of power right so do
you think sometimes maybe even yourself
or your career because you’re looking
back right now reflecting right like for
me when I sit back and I reflect in my
life and I say okay I live in Iran we
were bombed on it was a very difficult
time for me as a kid my parents got a
divorce had very bipolar type of people
in my life that were complicated and not
the loving most incredible you know
experience that you wanted then boom we
live in a refugee camp I get stabbed at
12 years old at the refugee camp I come
to the states I go to high school have a
one point oh GPA now in my life it’s
been a pretty you know a mother sad
communist outside imperialist like it’s
a lot of mess that around through right
so I don’t have a degree I don’t have a
four-year two-year degree and I go back
I think about what could I have done
differently in this to mistake I mean
that when you go back yourself did you
see some trends where you were kind of
like I can get away with this because
I’m such and such not at all no zero no
at all no you’re not thinking I wasn’t
thinking I did anything wrong in fact
most of the counts that I pled guilty to
that I actually pled guilty to they were
accounting issues
is that my accountants dealt with I
didn’t really I didn’t fill out my taxes
I didn’t do that
so how do you live today with all that
like is there any bitterness and you’re
like you know knowing how much more you
could have contributed as you know
service is there anything where you
could say I could have done this
differently because it sounds like you
don’t have yeah you know what I could
have done differently I could have you
know I could have I could have been you
know the goody two-shoes you know gone
to school and you know clerk for the
judge and gone to law school and all
this stuff I could have done that and I
could have gone that route but I didn’t
and you know I personally think I’m
satisfied with what I’ve done for this
country you know I’m sorry this stuff
happened the way it happened if I could
have done something differently that I
thought of at the time more than let’s
let’s wrap up with this final talk I was
in UK last week and I was interviewing a
few people and we talked about the resi
is a recidivism rate right and the
numbers came up for America right right
and I think u.s. is 56 percent after 56
percent of inmates go back a year later
67 percent three years later but 76
percent five years later right like the
system is created to get you to go back
into prison if that makes any sense
right so you know that’s how the system
is set up what do you think about the
current system that we have ourselves
and if there was anything you would
change with the current system we have a
lot of people in prison that sold weed
or you know you know that’s nothing like
you know major but they’re still in
prison nowadays and it’s a pretty high
cost I think the number I saw was like
76 billion dollars Larry the prison’s
system the criminal justice system in
America is horrendous it’s horrible it’s
horrible for a number of reasons one we
put people in prison that shouldn’t be
there Prison is for bad guys bad guys do
bad things
Prison is for people that you want to
protect society from that’s what prison
should be for that’s what it was
originally
we ate it for that’s not what we use it
for we put commercial fishermen a quart
too many fish in prison somebody sells a
whale’s tooth on an eBay we put him in
prison we take a young black kid that
sells three dime bags of marijuana and
we charge him federally and given 55
years are you kidding that’s crazy to me
that’s insane so what do you do what
it’s saying well you do what I’ve done
for the last five years since I get out
you fight Congress who I think is
completely inept most of the time you
fight them to change you fight them to
create change we’re sitting right now on
a historic piece of legislation that I
think is gonna be it’s gonna be voted on
within the next two days is this the
email you were talking about there you
got first step back yeah got it right
I’ve been I’ve been pushing this for
five years but this is only a small part
of the criminal justice system
you can’t put people in prison suck all
the societal values out of them
institutionalize them turn them into
monsters and think you’re gonna send
them home and everything’s gonna be okay
it’s not that’s why that recidivism
rates so damn high because we’re not
doing anything for him you have to do
some if you’re gonna put him in prison
and you’re gonna destroy their lives
well then at least do something so that
when they get home they can get a job a
real job did then go to work take care
of the family take care of their kids
pay taxes because as it stands right now
we don’t do none of that you know if
you’re watching this right now obviously
if you’re as enamored by the story that
Bernard Kerik has with the different
experiences he’s had and you know what
he’s had to done as I am I’d love to
hear your thoughts on what we’re talking
about here at the end so what do you
comment here or you send me a tweet I
Patrick Lee are you on Twitter as well
or no what’s your Twitter handle you’re
not a charity
okay tweet us at Patrick mid David or
Bernard Kerik and let us know what you
took away from today’s interview because
for me it’s a lot of connecting the dots
with all these different stories and I
hope you go in a direction where
something happens with this because at
this pace you’re getting young boys and
young you know that are making mistakes
that ruins the rest of their lives and
they’re going into prison alone and
given others a life sentence
it’s a life saying I see had a lot of
collateral consequence you know that
they can’t get out from under yeah
but I want to hear from you I’m Kirsten
what you think about it again Bernard
Kerik sir thank you so much thank you to
get somebody Taemin thank you at your time thank you yes
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